 Welcome to Liquid Margins. My name is Franny and I'm your host. And this is Hybrid High Flex F2F Anchoring Class Community with Social Annotation. Today's guests are David Serna, he's an instructional consultant at the University of DC Center for the Advancement of Learning. And moderator, Janae Cohn, she's the Director Academic Technology at California State University Sacramento. And so excited to have them both here. I'm gonna turn it over to Janae. She's our guest moderator today, but she's also a guest, so she's wearing two hats. So I'm gonna stop sharing. Thank you so much for being here. Thank you for any for the introduction and thank you everyone for taking the time to join us this morning, looking forward to being in conversation with all of you about hybrid, blended, high-flex, all the instructional modalities that many of us are navigating and thinking through this fall. So I appreciate being in conversation with David today. And David and I actually just discovered that we went to the same undergraduate institution. We're both UCLA alumni. So we've got many common connections. So we're gonna have a good dialogue today. So I think to kick us off, David, it might be helpful for us to hear from you. A little bit of maybe some groundwork establishment about kind of what we're talking about when we're talking about these different instructional modes. I think one of the challenges in having this conversation right now is that there's a lot of confusion about what it means to teach hybrid or blended or high-flex. And so maybe before we bridge to social orientation, I would love to hear from you more about how you help faculty that you work with and the students that you work with understand what really differences are between these modalities and how we unpack, how those experiences are different in these modalities. Great question. And for everyone here, I'm a native of San Diego. I miss California. So I'm here on the East Coast in Washington DC. So I work for the University of DC or UDC as an instructional consultant. And part of my role is to really help faculty leverage all of these tools that we're using online more effectively. So for example, using hypothesis in both a hybrid and a high-flex environment, I'm really fortunate that in our situation at our school, we have a learning zone that is for a high-flex type of teaching. And I did a training a couple of weeks ago with our pilot group of professors on how to really leverage our classroom and make it more effective for our learners. So for me, most of my background experience is with corporates. So I trained online teachers with professionalism, time management, student engagement. And now moving into higher ed, this space, it's been wonderful to really work with professors one-on-one for high-flex and hybrid teaching, right? Thanks, Dave. I appreciate that intro. I'm going to know a little bit more about your background. A lot of interesting differences there from moving to sort of the corporate to a higher space there, for sure. That might be another conversation to have. So I'm wondering, as you sort of, as we're thinking ahead to fall, has your semester started, by the way, at... Yes, it's been quite a busy week. We started on the 23rd. Most of our students are still taking classes remotely. But for example, we had a class this week that was high-flex introduction to engineering. And we had 19 students visit in person. So they were learning in person in our classroom space. And then three were learning remotely. So actually that kind of surprised me. As a learner myself and as an instructor, I thought that more students would want to learn remotely, but we actually had a lot that came in person. Yeah, interesting. So how has that been sort of shaking out for you this fall, sort of seeing some of this kind of emergence from the emergency remote teaching necessitated by the people? Yeah, like moving away from COVID to now. It's been quite interesting because, as we come back in person, so some of the students, I was talking with them, they said they actually prefer in-person learning. They feel that they learn better when the professor or instructor is right in front of them. And that kind of surprised me, but also at the same time it didn't, because as we come from COVID working remotely, maybe we want to meet in person now. We want to make those connections. And I think that using these tools such as hypothesis can really help to bridge those gaps between our remote and in-person learners. Yeah, so maybe let's speak to that a little bit more then. We're here, or I imagine many of you are here because you're interested in sort of exactly that bridge and the ways that we can really include all students, even if there is this kind of desire to bring more in-person components back or to hear some of that from students. And I also acknowledge that Kevin Kelly, hey Kevin Kelly, who's really been doing a ton of great work on the kind of this transitional moment in higher ed too. He's saying it'll be interesting to see if that feeling persists in a lot of students who are missing the in-person experience after 12 to 18 months of being off campus. And I mean, Janae, to follow up with that, think for example, let's say that things go back to some emergency remote type of instruction. And then since we have this high flex environment, that can easily transition back. So I think that just being able to adapt, that's the biggest thing I've learned this past year and a half. Working in corporate, but also working in higher ed now is you have to adapt. You have to be innovative. You have to use these tools effectively. And I think those are the questions that we're answering now is, yeah, we came from this pandemic situation, but what's next, right? Right, I think adaptability, flexibility, these are all kind of concepts that were all, I mean, what other choice do we have in higher ed? Right now, I feel like to, other than to be willing to kind of change or be thinking about how we be responsive to the need for constant change. So I think to your point about social annotation being a useful bridge, right? For students kind of regardless of where they're joining the class environment, regardless of kind of how the feelings, I mean, regardless and because of the feelings, I think that are sort of shaking out around educational experiences this fall. I'm curious about how you've seen social annotation act as that bridge, how has that proved effective from what you've seen maybe so far in this beginning part of the fall, but perhaps from some of your prior experiences too. Yeah, I think that's a great question because I always think about active learning strategies as an instructor, but also as a student myself. And I love using hypothesis and social annotation because it makes anything come more alive. So I think for example, a year ago from today when we were all working remotely or if you're a student learning remotely and social annotation is a great way to make a document come alive. So in my context, we use articles, research papers, websites and a hypothesis and then we're able to have the students annotate that in real time and then also respond. So I will talk about later how we're using that in the high flex mode, but if you're just working remotely now or students are working remotely, you can still use that social annotation to create that sense of community which is so needed, especially now. Absolutely, so I'm wondering, it might be helpful to kind of hear, or I'd be eager to hear some of the specifics of kind of some way, some especially effective ways you've seen social annotation used to kind of build community or make that text come alive. Or they're like, can you think of a moment in particular where you've worked with someone or a fact number you've worked with has kind of done this especially well and what that looked like to kind of stoke that community building? That's a great question. So I think about, when you make a document come alive with social annotation, one of my roles at UDC is to think about best practices that I can communicate with faculty. So for example, let's say you have a document, let's say it's about high flex and it's a website about high flex. So let's say I start as the instructor with annotating and thinking of guiding questions. So it's not a blank document that a student will see. But for example, using memes, gifs or gifts, those are great. You can insert those directly. I've also put podcast in the links and then I put a guiding question. And I think those best practices that I've seen professors do really make that social annotation come alive. And of course also being very direct at least with your instructions. So let's say for example, a best practice is students need to make two annotations and then two replies to annotations that were already there. So that's a way that you can really have that sense of community with that social annotation. Nice. So I appreciate, right? It's nice to have those really concrete examples. I think when we think of annotation, it's really easy to kind of limit the response instead of just to text. And something I noticed in my own teaching, but also in the faculty that, with the faculty I work with is that it can be challenging sometimes to have the community building be authentic, right? So something that can be a challenge is to really encourage students to sniz a place to connect and not just as a sort of a homework assignment or a box to kind of check, right? Of, okay, I've got to like, I call it like there's a discussion board problem, right? Like, okay, I've got to like do the thing where I respond to my peers and that's that. Do you have any advice for folks who might be trying to use this as a way to help students get to know each other no matter kind of where they are on campus, if they're in person or online? That's a great question. So think about, I'll use GIFs using those as an example because think about how our students best communicate with each other visually. And I think because we're working remotely or in a hybrid or high-flex model, using those visual cues can really help. So say for example, in my training for high-flex, I had the students annotate in real time using GIFs. So let's say I highlighted a sentence, high-flex is a great model for communication. Use a GIF to describe how you feel about high-flex and they're able to visually show their feelings towards high-flex and we can use that as a starting point for discussion. So instead of just using a text cue, right? Use a visual cue, that could be a great starting point for discussion for anyone, whether they're remote or in person. Yeah, and I'm seeing just in the chat, some of the resources. So Erin has shared a resource and Becky shared a resource with some suggestions for how to do this. But I'm gonna echo Anna's question or Anna, excuse me. Let me know, Anna or Anna, if I mispronounce your name, which pronunciation is correct. But she asked, are multimedia annotations accessible? So we may want to speak to that. I mean, my first hunch is no, right? They're not going to be universally accessible, especially a lot of moving GIFs, GIFs, GIFs I think is technically correct, but it still sounds weird to me. I think it was GIFs. I heard the creator talk about it with the soft G. So that's how I say it, right, GIFs? But to me, it was a motto. Language is a cultural construct anyway. But, okay, perfect, I got that. Anna, yes. So I think that one thing to think about in terms of accessibility, if we're gonna use GIFs or images is also encouraging to the extent that we can, students, when they're sharing to add a little bit of alt text or to add a little bit of description of what they've put in. I used to do an exercise that that was students where they'd have to actually design alt text or descriptions when they were doing multimedia compositions. So it's a good exercise too for students to be thinking very deliberately about what those images produced. And I'm seeing Alex suggesting inline descriptions are probably better. It's a good point. Just in terms of making sure it's visible after all. Any thoughts on kind of how we can make maybe some of that multimedia community building stuff more accessible, David? Yeah, I think, so one of the things I've been using recently with hypothesis in general is linking YouTube videos there. And you know with YouTube, they have the captions and it's more accessible than let's say a GIF or a meme. That could be another best practice if you are using some kind of media. You can also have students upload their own responses to YouTube and then they can link that YouTube into hypothesis itself. So for me, working remotely, sometimes I get tired of just reading text all the time. So if they are responding with video responses or using a YouTube video to do that as well, that can help with accessibility but also make it more alive. I think I'm hearing a moral of the story here is options, right? Yes, options. So giving students lots of options for engaging and responding to that text with maybe a media of their choice and inviting that deliberately. I think something that can happen. And Alex saying, yes, options, UDL, right? So those aren't familiar with UDL stands for universal design for learning, right? So even giving students one extra choice for expressing themselves, one extra choice of responding can make the activity more inclusive. So long as we're also sort of being attentive to where there are barriers to access. That's a common tension of course with UDL is that creating more, some options may be accessible and some may be inaccessible. So it's worth sort of thinking through how we break down those barriers while also giving students those choices. Yeah, and I think to follow up on your point, right? Think about high flex. It stands for hybrid flexible. So we're offering those flexible options for students in different ways that they learn. So even with hypothesis, we use it with Blackboard Ultra, that's our LMS. And it's really easy to integrate into our LMS platform but also students can go ahead and annotate, let's say from a tablet or a smartphone. So offering those different points of accessibility with hypothesis really helps as well with that participation and engagement. Yeah, I appreciate your tie in back to our theme today, right? Because one of the challenges I think as we explore these applications of giving options within modalities that are inherently built upon student choice, giving students options for where they're participating in their class, it can be hard I think from the instructional standpoint to design activities. If you don't know or you can't predict exactly what choices students are gonna make, right? I think something that a lot of instructors do is when they're planning group work, they sort of have some assumptions about the choices students will make or come into the class with. Do you have any thoughts on how instructors might navigate some of the complexity or challenges of maybe not knowing right off the bat, A, how or where a student will be tuning in, what's to say or being even maybe how or what a student might be responding to annotations and for particular assignments? Yeah, that's a great question. And one of our best practices that we tell our professors, so they integrate hypothesis into Blackboard but before they do that, they can have a discussion post. So let's say how you best learn or how are you accessing this Blackboard material? And let's say the student responds with an iPad or with their phone or on the computer. So as the instructor or professor, you can kind of gauge where your class is and then use that to your advantage. And I think that offering directives that are clear for our students to say two annotations and two replies, that's also been another best practice that's been really successful with our professors. Got it. So it sounds like trying to figure out where there's choice but where there's maybe also some like standards in the practice too. Is that kind of what I'm hearing? Like creating some boundaries even within some tweets. Exactly. So think about like for us, we are kind of helping the faculty and assisting them with that role. So offering them some templates, guidelines that they can just easily, you know, import and copy that for their student base. That's really made a huge difference especially in this remote hybrid and high flex model of teaching. Got it. So it makes me think about kind of, again, the complexity of which sorts of, I will call them boundaries, which sorts of boundaries to put in place to create some shared experience while also making sure there's space for flexibility, making sure there's some space for students to have choice. And something I may be hearing from you is thinking about some bound in this maybe around the time of the assignment or about the cadence of the assignment itself. Am I hearing that right in terms of those are being some ways to kind of manage the flexibility components a little bit? Definitely. And I see that Kevin in the chat, I'm a strong believer that we need to give students better prompts about the nature of those replies. And I definitely agree. So let's say as an instructor, I give a week for the timeline for annotating a hypothesis document. One of the things you can do is do a midweek check-in. So let's say make two annotations by Wednesday and then make two replies after that by Friday. So we all know those eager students that do everything at once, right? So we don't want that to happen because we want this to be a living, breathing document that they are going back to and referencing throughout the week. So that's another best practice. Also giving a template for what kind of questions, annotations or replies are better. So for example, if they just say yes, no, I agree. That was great. Those are kind of those empty responses that we're not looking for, right? So even one of the best practices is using a GIF or a YouTube video to respond with and then talk about that. That's another layer that makes it even more effective and engaging. Those are great suggestions, David. I appreciate that. And I want to acknowledge too, I thought Becky's comment from the chat was helpful here as well as students just, they want to know our expectations. And I think what you're speaking to, David, is some good modeling, right? That providing some sense of what it looks like to engage in discourse. So I think the other thing that's easy to forget is that the act of annotating an academic or even non-academic text, may be really new for a lot of students, right? On top of the newness of the new modalities they may be navigating. So there's a potential for there to be kind of some hidden curriculum around the act of annotating itself. I know that speaks to Kevin's point about, providing some good prompts, providing some structure in terms of helping generate the ideas so that there aren't these assumptions being made about what it means to annotate. Yeah, to follow up with that. So say for example, think of yourself as a student and you come to a hypothesis document or social annotation and no one has annotated yet. For me, I don't want to be that first person that annotates as a student. So as an instructor or professor, if you are providing those guiding questions, which can definitely shape the direction of the discussion, keep it on task, that could be a great way that you're modeling best practices even for your students, right? So if I as an instructor just annotate something and say, this is a great point, that doesn't really help our students, but if I say, look at this sentence or think about this question, how would you respond to this or what are your feelings about this? That could be a great guiding question that can really leave the discussion more effectively for your students. Yeah, thanks, David. I think that speaks to Kevin's point in the chat too about feedback and the ways in which writing, sharing and giving feedback is also a practice that may be very unfamiliar to everyone. I think a lot, I took a class in grad school on feedback and assessment, but I know that that's an unusual experience. Most of us don't get taught how to give and share feedback and it's a skill. It's really hard to do. And so that kind of modeling of going to what's working, what isn't, what gives you some productive knowledge to shape how you are engaging with others is really valuable. And I appreciate too, Becky and Alex's kind of thread in the chat here as well about, Becky suggests that she has students journal about their experiences with annotation. You know, so that many students feel uncomfortable with it because they don't think they're doing it right. And so giving that space for students to reflect too on the challenges with it seems really valuable. And to speak about Becky's point, because I think that's a really important to reflect on, right? So some students may be uncomfortable or anxious to give their opinions. And one of the best practices that we've done is we introduce hypothesis in a really fun way. That's really non-judgmental. So for example, with my professors, I had this annotation activity where it was like the top places to travel in 2021. I mean, if we could travel, but they were able to annotate and then also reply. But that was a really fun activity where it wasn't like an academic thing. It was just more like, I want to visit Wyoming. I would love to go here and see the Buffalo. So that was a great starting point. And then after that, they were used to the hypothesis as the tool and now they can dive deeper into using it more effectively. Well, that maybe leads us to a good conversation here about assessment, right? And the role that perhaps assessment plays in animating social annotation conversations, perhaps in a hybrid blended or high-flex context, but perhaps in other contexts as well. So I'm curious about David, your thoughts on where social annotation and assessment overlap, let's just say. What are some suggestions that you might have about using social annotation either as a means of assessing students' understanding or on the contrary, how would you see, how would you advise us just instructors assess the annotations themselves? Does that question make sense? I've got kind of two sides of it. Oh, definitely. So I'll talk about our context because we use Blackboard Ultra. I love using it because hypothesis integrates with our LMS very cleanly, very smoothly. So I'm able to see the individual student responses and I'm able to grade them within Blackboard and I assess them by giving them criteria points. So for example, if you gave a substantive reply or you annotated something that someone else hasn't annotated with a guiding question, that could be the criteria where I can assess them by and then within Blackboard itself, I can choose, let's say, Janae Kohn, 10 out of 10. I can also leave some feedback directly. So as long as we give these clear directives for our students or our learners, that's a great way that you can assess for understanding and see if they really were following your example or those guiding questions. All right, so how might those practices be either informed by or complicated by, let's say the larger infrastructure in a hybrid or high-flex context, let's say. I think for a lot of a concern I've heard around faculty, especially I would say for high-flex where students really have the choice about whether they're gonna come in person or engage online or even just engage with a course entirely asynchronously. How might annotations, the practice of kind of assessing annotations or seeing annotations as a way to assess learning maybe help bridge some of the differences across those spaces and what students might be experiencing? That is a great question. When I think about how we're using hypothesis in a high-flex mode, I can talk about that. One of the things we've done is we don't want to make it so quick but we also want to give them a time limit. So for example, I shared that activity I did the introduction one about where would you like to travel in 2021. So how I set that up is I had my professors, they were the students when I was training them and they had 10 minutes to make two annotations and then we discussed that. We used that as a starting point for discussion and then after that we had another five to 10 minutes where they can think about some replies. So I think if you're giving students, if you are giving them a time limit, if it's realistic but also you're giving them some directives on how to do that, that could be a way that you can organize that really well but just being really clear. And I think that regardless of whatever situation you're teaching from, if you're unclear. So for example, here's something that I experienced as a student myself with hypothesis. A professor saying, David make two replies, make two annotations. But then I go to the document, it's a nine page document. I don't even know where to start. There's no guiding questions there. There's nothing that really speaks to me and I don't even know where to begin. So as long as you're giving those directives and guiding questions, even for me when I did my travel activity, I did it first in real time. So I did an annotation, I highlighted a sentence, I added my response and guiding question. So they were able to see how easy it was but then it really led by example right there. Yeah, thanks for the concrete example, David. I think it's helpful to hear and I'll just kind of point out that in the chat, Nate put in a link to the talk from Gardner Campbell at iAnnotate. Kind of about some ways I think to navigate this with less structure. So I like hearing the really concrete example with the structure too. And there may be cases where the task could still even be less bounded by sort of particular numbers of annotations that might, and I think this is to Kevin's point, kind of ridge in these experiences. So maybe it's just sort of a matter. So I think one could reasonably design assignment for a high flex or hybrid or blended space that just asks students to kind of answer a few questions in the form of an annotation. And then in the space that live class bring in, whatever pops up, whether that's one or two or five comments, and to use this to kind of, again, animate or charge a conversation. And I'm hearing Nate also ask options for teachers too, right? So we wanna be thinking about what options, the bounds of different choices for teachers as they're considering what these assignments can accomplish. I like Sarah's question in the chat box. So how my instructors effectively invite engagement during a live session by drawing upon annotations students generated in advance. So let's say you're doing the flipped classroom model and one of your discussions or activities offline is using hypothesis. So let's say you're doing the two annotations, two replies, and then you can put some directives there afterwards. We are going to use this for our starting point for discussion in class live, whether that be hybrid or high flex. And that could be a great way that you can utilize the annotation where they do it beforehand, but then you have the discussion component when you're live in class. It's really utilizing that time really effectively. Yeah, something I've also done prior to this hybrid blended high flex moment as we're bridging online and face-to-face experiences too. It's been something I've sometimes seen as instructor, I'll often have annotation assignments do like a good 24 hours before a kind of a live session. So I can review and see what kinds of annotations or comments might lead to other kinds of activities discussions. So I'd often kind of like pull out some of the most, some of the richest annotations for lack of better words are ones that kind of bring up some complexities or other questions for us to unpack. And so it's sort of a way to A, highlight kind of particularly sort of productive annotations whether those are questions or comments upon the text and to use those to then move discussion forward in the class as well. And students really I think appreciate sort of having an agency empowerment to see their own words used to kind of drive a conversation too. I'm so glad you brought that up, Janae, because think about it this way too, right? You're having those rich discussions in class, have your students also revisit that hypothesis document and then add more annotations on top of that after they've met live, whether that be remotely or high flex. And that could be a great way that we have this living breathing document that's no longer passive, right? So you've interacted with it before class, you're talking about it during class and then after class you're adding more rich discussion points into that document. Yeah, I think that's, I think Shayna or Shauna, again, let me know what the right pronunciation is for your name, Shayna or Shauna, one of those I think. But she writes that she heard from one faculty member that she felt having students annotate a document before a class discussion gave her a significant amount of time back in class for discussion. The discussions were significantly better. So I think that underscore is exactly kind of what you're saying, David. I think to go back to the accessibility conversation too, this is also a really good practice for including all students, right? Not everyone can be able to respond spontaneously in the moment students may need that time to reflect and to process, to access information at their own pace. Again, just give students more options and more flexibility. Yeah, and I think adding to that point, right? Let's say that you want to increase accessibility. So have your students after the class is over, make another annotation talking about a point that someone made in class, right? So that could be a way that you're really involving the whole class and that community. And one of the things that in our context with HIFLEX is we have remote learners, we have in-person. We don't just want the remote learners to be by themselves or the in-person to be by themselves. So they can also cross, right? So a remote can talk about an in-person, in-person can talk about remote and that's how you can bring all the students together as well. Yes, right. Kind of thinking of all, thinking of your annotations bridging all those moments in time. So even if you don't have all students all in one place all at the same time, which really isn't going to happen in this new phase we're in of hybrid or blended or HIFLEX, the annotation can kind of be that anchoring point where they take and process what they learned over time. David, you got a request in the chat to mention again what docking you use to have students add where they wanted to travel. Can you speak to that again? I think that was, okay. So it was a travel and leisure article about the best places to travel in 2021. I think it was written before the pandemic but it was just like a quick article that I found to use as kind of just an introductory exercise because obviously in our context we can't really travel now. So it was kind of a funny humorous moment that we all had but after this is all over, hopefully knock on wood, where can we travel or where do you want to travel? And that was a great icebreaker activity as well because I didn't know my professors or the students in my classroom. So it was also kind of a way to get more or learn more about what their interests were. And it was a great activity. So it was like they were using hypothesis but also we were getting to know each other at the same time. That was the one. So Nate, you found it. Excellent. So that was a really funny activity that also I think I chose Wyoming for mine. So that was a really nice activity that we did using hypothesis. Yeah, it's a fun icebreaker. A nice workmate hunting that down. That's some good search engineering. I was surprised I remembered it but yeah, that was great. Thank you, Nate. Excellent. But we've got about five minutes left till we're at our 9.45 kind of end time. Oh yeah, someone asked about your plan earlier, David. Did you want to share what kind of plan that is? You know what's funny? Anytime you go to a workshop, right? So one of the things is like that whole GIF conversation, but also my plan. So I actually moved into my office this week because we came back on campus and I needed something alive in my class or in my office. I got this at Costco yesterday. I don't know exactly what it is. It's like a tropical plant, but I love it, right? And kind of adds a little decorative touch to my office. Some life, some color. All things that we could use more of, I think. So with our five minutes remaining, I'm wondering, I'm sort of looking at the chat to see if we missed any questions, but now might be a good time. If there's anything the attendees here are wondering about this. Anything that we haven't gotten to yet that you just as a burning question for you about using annotation, social annotation to bridge different spaces or for hybrid blended high flex contexts. We'd love to hear it. I always have more questions we can think of, but I did want to take a moment just to invite here at the end in a very deliberate way if it's anything the audience would like to bring to the table that we might have missed. I would love to hear your perspective. And just Nate, he wrote a comment, no public annotations appear because he's correct. I did that in a private student group through Blackboard. So only the link that I share as an instructor is only open for the students, right? So it's not just open to everyone online. Yeah, thanks for clarifying that, David. And Nate, right? Because we're remembering yet another set of options, right? Available to you if you explore these kinds of activities as you might get some different outcomes where different kinds of conversation is generated. If you choose to kind of stick with some private groups or if you choose to go public and there are lots of different reasons to explore some of those different settings. It's worth noting, right, that the private groups are better if you're gonna have maybe more vulnerable class discussions that the public annotations are an interesting option to explore if you have an assignment where you're engaging or deliberately analyzing public discourse in some ways. Yeah, so I'm seeing a question from Nate about predictions about how the fall term will unfold at their schools if it's face-to-face, hybrid, hypox, et cetera, and how they'll prepare or manage for what might happen. And I'm seeing a question from Curtis too, but we'll start with Nate's question about predictions and then we'll move to Curtis's question. What are some of your predictions, David? What do you think? It's Christopher. Okay, so I'm in DC now. We were not even supposed to come back until spring, but DC mandated, you know, coming back. And I think this is before the spike. So, I mean, who knows? I think for me and for the faculty, I'm so impressed by their resilience as well as with the students, right? The students are very resilient and faculty have been able to adapt very quickly. So I think whatever happens if we go back to emergency remotes, we can transfer all of what we learned so far. So think about when we went to remote, it was kind of the foundation, but now we're going to those next deeper steps. So for me, I'm not, I'm prepared if we have to go back to remote or hybrid. It doesn't bother me. I think, you know, this past year and a half hasn't made us all more adaptable, but yeah, who knows? I think everything changes week by week, day by day even with everything going on. Right, the only constant has changed, it seems in this moment. The advice, I feel like I keep sort of following back on in these conversations is design your class like an online class. You know, have everything that you're doing in your home base be online. Because the in-person moments may be unpredictable just depending on how this next stage of the pandemic evolves, but also depending on environmental circumstances. I mean, here in California, and I know we've a participant who's in Oregon, there are massive wildfires happening that can make it really unhealthy for some people to go outside with unknown particulate matter. And of course, if any other need of natural disaster happening that can change people's abilities to come and be in person. So I optimistically hope that in our next phase, yeah. Natural disasters won't be dictating everything we do, but the reality is they could be. They probably will be because of anthropogenic climate change. So we do have to kind of be prepared to be thinking about how we store and create spaces for conversation, regardless of what's in the environment. And I think an important note is with everything, I think sometimes maybe we think students aren't ready or students can't do this or that, but one of the things I've learned is that students are so resilient and so adaptable. The student generation, they've gone through so many different things and, you know, talk to them. Think about what really excites them, how they best want to learn. I think about myself, my experiences as a learner and also, you know, with my friends, how I chat with them. So I always send like GIFs, funny videos. Let's utilize that in our class, right? And that could be a really great way that we're increasing that engagement. I saw another question about, had just up a way, let's see. Thoughts on ways of motivating students to return to a document after it has been annotated before class and discussed in class beyond just the love of annotating. So if you want to use this as part of their participation or their grade, that could be another component, right? You have to revisit the same document afterwards and that could be another element for their points or their grade, right? Yeah, I might just add, and I appreciate that question, Curtis, about motivation. And I mean, beyond the kind of assessment motivation, I mean, I think being really explicit as the instructor about what the purpose is of the annotation and being really clear yourself as the instructor about why they're doing this can motivate students. And I'll explain a little bit more, which is I think annotation of the task can feel hard to be motivated to do for students if they just feel like it's sort of this exercise in pleasing teacher or this exercise and kind of like practicing a certain kind of discourse. But if it's clear to students, hey, we're doing this so that you can develop your ideas for a project you're gonna work on or you could use your annotations to help you build out your thinking for a paper you're writing, all of these possibilities can help motivate that moment of return across these moments in time. So I think as an instructor to make it clear why they want to return afterwards, how that will help them or how that will develop their thinking can be, I think, helpful and inspiring, right? So it doesn't become just sort of busy work as Becky puts it in the chat. Yeah, and I'm so glad you brought that up too because it's no longer a static document. So for example, I have these hypothesis activities that have been annotated already and I had some of the professors link to other resources that are related. Let's say that's a podcast or a YouTube video. And now I have this document that I can continually or go back in reference and then see all these external links that they put there. So that living, breathing document just becomes a lot more memorable even that when I talked about, right, the travel and leisure, I remembered it, right? Because of hypothesis rather than just reading it passively and there are no annotations there. So it could be a great way that your students can see other linked resources or information from others that they would not normally have access to or even know about, right? Right, thanks. I think that's a great addition, you know just creating more space for students' voices to be heard and included and to have kind of a safe bet in this current environmental context that that conversation will kind of live, breathe and be active as Hart mentions in the chat as well. And I appreciate even Colleen's point about hypothesis is kind of an equal playing field to engage in this current moment of a student's quarantining can't be there in person they're still part of the experience out feeling maybe alienated or I mean, I think there's a real social stigma right around being sick or not being able to be present. So it's a way to kind of reduce that stigma reduce that impact. So I realized we are over time a little bit. That's a good problem to have. It's a good problem to have a little bit over that I wanna recognize and appreciate that we are basically at our end point here. So I just wanna thank David, of course for being in conversation with me today. Yay, fun to get to connect and have a dialogue about this. And I wanna thank everyone who attended and we're part of the chat here too. I hope you were able to sort of leave you in to feel like you were part of the conversation throughout I know there's like a lot of imploring to have the chat saved. So maybe as Franny comes back on camera and be ready to speak to some next steps for those who are here today if they wanna access me through this. And I just wanna end with, Jeanne you said a great quote and I put that in the chat box again annotations bridging those moments in time. That's perfect. I'm gonna start using that, I'm gonna write it down. But that's exactly what we want, right? Regardless of high flex hybrid remote in person let's create those bridges and make reading more active. Absolutely, I also love that quote. Hey, this was great. Really wonderful conversation. I wanna thank you both and everyone in the chat. Have a great weekend and we'll see you next time on The Good Margins.