 Hello, everyone, and welcome to JSA TV and JSA Podcasts, the newsroom for telecom and data center professionals. I'm Joe Marc Lehmann on behalf of the team here at JSA. Thank you for tuning into our latest virtual CEO roundtable. Our first 100 registrants for today's roundtable will have received a fresh lunch delivered to your door or a gift card to order your own meal. And today, we are excited to share our JSA virtual roundtables on a new platform to include a first in the industry virtual networking experience with a unique opportunity to talk face-to-face with other event attendees before and after the panel. Make sure you head back to the networking lounge after the discussion for live networking with speakers and attendees of today's event. And as a quick reminder for everyone who has joined us today, we look forward to your participation during this event. So please feel free to add any questions that you may have into the chat or request the mic to come on camera and ask your question to our panelists. If you have any questions about upcoming roundtables, whatever it may be, such as how to register or how to participate, feel free to reach out to us through our website, thejsa.net. And by the way, just as a reminder to mark your calendars, our next virtual roundtable will cover marketing strategies post-pandemic and look at the top trends and tools for the network infrastructure industry. That will take place on September the 16th at 1 p.m. Eastern Time. Without further delay, let's get started with today's roundtable. Our topic today is the COVID-19 effect. And we will be looking at the lessons learned around the world for critical in-depth work infrastructure and services as we still come to terms with the pandemic. It is my pleasure to introduce you, our exceptionally executive lineup, which includes Isaac Mian, Vice President of Sales and Supporting Engineering and Red Line Communications, Aaron Chenoy, Senior Vice President of Sales and Marketing for Server Farm, Dave Johnson, President of Comstar Technologies, Staffan Gojird, CEO of Telecarrier, Brian Fleen, President of Excel Communications and Roshan Aghazari Fart, Vice President of Partner Solutions and Maya Global Solutions. Guys, thank you for coming and joining us today. Let's start by getting you to introduce yourselves or what you do in your business. And also let's do a very short roundup around what's been the biggest lesson or surprise that you've learned over the last 18 months. Anyone would like to go first? Or otherwise, we'll just go by order. So let's maybe start with Isaac then. Yeah, sure. Thank you. So Isaac Mian, VP of Engineering Services here at Red Line Communications, Canadian manufacturer of wireless networking equipment, purpose built for critical industries, such as energy, utilities, mining, public safety, those are the sectors that we focus on globally. So the biggest surprise, I think I speak for everyone when I see that the biggest surprise has been how unprepared we were. Despite going through SARS and MERS and viruses like Zika globally, if we knew this was bound to happen, such a pandemic is going to hit us, yet we were unprepared for it as a whole. And when I say we, I mean, not just Red Line as a company, but human societies across the globe, everyone was unprepared for it, even though the Wining Science was there. So from my perspective, that was sort of the biggest surprise for me. Thank you Isaac. And I guess this slide, what we were talking about that people do forget things very quickly. And Aaron, tell us about yourself and server farm and what you've learned. Sure. Thank you, Aaron. Yeah, so Aaron Shanoi, I run sales and marketing for server farm. We exist because our customers need data centers but don't want them. And we help solve those problems by owning real estate on their behalf, running co-location services and providing IT managed services for their on-premise needs. And actually interesting that I'm only the second one to introduce myself. I was going to pick pretty much the same surprise that Isha sent. So I'll kind of go for a little bit more of a positive one to come to the one that he did, which my big surprise is we kind of did it. We did the thing that a lot of people thought was really hard to do. And that was to suddenly take an employee base in numbering in the millions of people and very rapidly enabled them to be able to work from home, solving network security issues and cybersecurity issues and bandwidth management. We managed to do all of those things. And that's incredible if you think about the IT people who generally as a population have been kind of starved of innovation budget to be able to kind of pre-invest in some of these things. So that's my big surprise. And it has done something really interesting, I think for us all, it's created a new normal. So going back to how it was, it's a little bit like us saying, well, we should give up Wi-Fi and go back to modems. That's clearly not gonna happen. And I think we've been through a very similar transformation, proving from a technology standpoint, proving what technology really can do. And by the way, technology has suddenly become a very, very visible thing to people who didn't know or didn't care about what it does for the world. And that is an all around good thing. I think that's a good point as well. I mean, we've certainly jumped a few years into the Gartner Magic Quadrant and Dave. Yeah, yeah. So I'm Dave Johnson. I'm president of Comstar Technologies. We're a technology managed service provider. So with a couple of different specialties or practices, those are unified communication as a service, IT managed services, kind of the traditional IT managed services and infrastructure project work, mainly audio visual building security and communication cabling. I think, you know, it's so interesting. I almost had the same response to Isaac's initial surprise. So I'll build a little bit on what Aaron was saying. The surprise I think is really the resiliency of human beings. I think we were fortunate that this happened in this time period where we could make some adaptations and the foundation of technology was there to leverage, to adjust our lifestyles, you know, from the way we order food to the way we work and all the things in between. So that's been really impressive to me. And fortunately it happened in this timeframe, you know, where we had these technologies to scale up. But I have a higher level of confidence in humanity, which may sound weird right now, that even if this happened 10, 20 years ago that we would have still found a way to get ourselves through it. So. And I guess the hope is that we learn from this one so well that we avoid the next one from even starting. And Roshanak. Hi, my name is Roshanak. I'm Sarifad, VP of Partners at Maya Global Solution. And I'm delighted to join this panel. I've been leading technical operational and business teams in the software, cloud and networking industries for the past couple of decades. A little about Maya. We're a Silicon Valley startup with an intelligent network application optimization solution. At a time when so much business is conducted via the internet with video and VoIP calls and relying on a variety of cloud-based applications, Maya automatically prioritizes the time-sensitive video and voice traffic while optimizing the bandwidth for the rest of the traffic. The results are significantly improved video and VoIP calls and responsive cloud-based applications over any van connection. We basically fix garbled and robotic voice, frozen choppy videos that affect end users and businesses alike. Now about the surprise, being an optimist, I tried to find a positive one. I was happy to see how quickly some of the industries that seemed so hard to change adjusted and embraced remote communication. For example, before COVID, there were so many times I wished I could have had a short call with my doctor. But the answer was usually you had to make an appointment, go to the office, which meant in the middle of the work day, you got to take time off, find parking, wait in the waiting room. It added up to a couple of hours, but it was something that I could have asked on a call in five, 10 minutes. I was delighted to see how quickly the complex medical and insurance industries adopted video conferencing. And I hope that stays post-pandemic. So I think something that felt like the Berlin Wall changed overnight and became a lot more flexible. Well, I guess the pressure to actually have to get things running made us evolve. And those that didn't want to evolve had to adapt themselves. Not to say that maybe we haven't overdone it a little bit, with at least work calls, maybe not doctor calls, but work calls, I think we've all overdone it a little bit. But it's been an interesting year. And Stefan. Thank you. Well, it's good to be here. And it's a dear but unfortunate topic, I guess, talking about the COVID era. But anyway, I'm Stefan Jöyd and I'm CEO of Telia Carrier. Telia Carrier is a global network service provider and we provide internet connectivity and data center to data center connectivity. And we're one of the largest IP backbones globally, servicing around 120 different countries on the global scale. So we've been very much in the center of the traffic volume increases and everything else that happened at the same time as everyone went home, starting working from home as has been discussed previously. I would say the biggest surprise, I would say, is probably touching a little bit on some of the other comments, but judging from how unprepared, I think that everyone actually was. I'm amazed about how well it all worked anyway. And both from a infrastructural point of view, but all the way through to all the applications and everything that everyone is running on top of all the network services. That still amazes me a lot because it was a very rapid change that happened. And it was, I wouldn't say it was overnight, but it was just in a few weeks time that we saw traffic volumes almost with the full year growth numbers in a few weeks. And still, it all worked, which I think is a good surprise to see during this time. Yeah, definitely. I mean, you need to pull all the strings together at the beginning of the pandemic to really make it work. I mean, I remember, I think it was Microsoft. When we got into the first lockdown, they brought online 100 megawatts of power, both at the data centers and collocation facilities who really helped support the work from home and people shifting where they were, basically. But thank you, Stefan and Brian. Bye. Brian Flynn, president of Xtel Communications. Xtel is a 27 year old telecommunications and cloud service provider. Our primary products are unified communications and collaboration, traditional voice services, data networks, dedicated internet access and network security. Yeah, I mean, to echo a lot of people's sentiments, I was, well, start off positively. We actually did a very good job. Xtel Corporation did a very good job in going to work from home almost immediately. It was March 12th, 2020. We gave work to everyone that we were working from home and on March 13th, we were completely functional and operational from our homes. So that was a pleasant surprise. Conversely, a lot of our customers and other businesses, I was shocked to see how unprepared they were. No plan whatsoever. They lacked a lot of collaboration tools necessary to work remotely or from their homes. So we spent, consequently, a lot of our time enabling our customers and other businesses in giving them those tools so that they can communicate effectively. But yeah, definitely a lot of unprepared people out there. Indeed. And it would be interesting to see how we now go into what Aaron was saying as well, this new normal, the new world that we are in, especially as we see some institutions, especially in the banking sector, demanding employees going back to work. So that'll be an interesting thing to watch in the months to come. But guys, thank you so much for the introduction. I think there's a lot of content there for us to pick up and debate through. I myself, I'm still recovering from COVID, which happened a few weeks ago. So I couldn't be more timely for this round table. But let's, I mean, I'm gonna let you guys discuss these between yourselves as well, but let's talk about the pressures. We've talked about the surprises of what you saw over the last 18 months. Let's talk about from an infrastructure network services provision perspective. What have been the pressures? And by pressures, we can also talk about maybe what's gone wrong. Because undoubtedly some stuff will have gone wrong for us to learn how to write the next time. Let's talk about the pressures that the infrastructure network service provision felt over the last 18 months because of the demands started by the pandemic. Who would like to go first? I can go first if that's okay. So I think when we, I think we have to remember that the internet is, I mean, it's a network of many networks and the way that they're connected to each other. And I think it was, in terms of the pressure points that we saw on the early stages when traffic grew so much, it was really to ensure also that not just the internal network or our network essentially had ample amount of connectivity, but also the fact that we had ample amount of connectivity to everyone else, making out the entire internet as such. And I think that that was a huge pressure. I think at the same time, it was one of the areas where it really went back to the engineering core. And I think people really disregarded a lot of the commercial aspects of what may have been not so great relationships or whatever, really to make sure that the internet really got an uplift in that sense to really be able to cater towards all the traffic that was needed to be passed essentially when everyone started to use these kind of tools and other type of tools to communicate with each other. And so I think that was a huge pressure point and it was very urgent. I would say at that point in time as well, for the entire industry to sort of come together on that layer to make sure that the basic fundament of the internet really worked. Okay, thank you, Stefan. Roshanak, would you like to add to what Stefan said? Sure, I agree with Stefan. Our infrastructure was not really ready to pick up the large increase in video voice, VoIP communication combined with the use of cloud-based application and internet resources. So VoIP and video calls generate small, time-sensitive UDP packets that need to get to the recipient on time for our voice and video to sound and look normal. On the other hand, browsing the internet or using cloud-based applications such as Microsoft 365, Salesforce.com or the multitude of cloud-based applications we rely on can download a ton of content to our computers creating a flood of TCP packets on the network. Just having a computer can result in automatic software updates to be downloaded to your system, scheduled backups trying to pull data out that can interfere with your video VoIP calls and create these robotic voice, choppy voice and choppy video. The flood of TCP downloads can overrun the small, time-sensitive UDP packets that are needed for voice video communication. And that's how distorted voice, pixelated video or just dropped calls happen. This significantly hindered the effectiveness and efficiency of our business operations. I mean, think about how many times you had to have people repeat what they said because their voice got distorted in some of the calls. Maya solves this problem. Maya's intelligent network solution automatically prioritizes time-sensitive UDP packets to assure optimum voice video communication while maximizing your TCP throughput for the rest of the network. And all of that is done automatically. No need for complex policies to be rolled out and it's done dynamically based on your network load at the time. Our infrastructure needs that intelligence built in to help prioritize the flood of network traffic. I guess automation is the way in, Aaron, you're an expert when it comes to automation. And I'll pick up the automation topic in a second. I just kind of wanted to talk a little bit about not just the sort of pressures that the increase of demand created, especially in our world of data centers and real estate. But actually I also want to talk a little bit about some of the pressures that it's going to create in terms of, I guess, the sort of longer term impact of carbon and sustainability. So you mentioned, Jau, you talked about Microsoft having to spin up vast amounts of infrastructure, which ultimately leads to lots of megawatts in Microsoft's cases, I think you mentioned a hundred to be able to create the infrastructure that required this or was required to fulfill this huge, sort of huge burst of activity. One of the challenges, however, and if we kind of think about just the human behavior in the last sort of 30 or 40 years in terms of building data centers, it's really been a people building infrastructure for a projected demand that they foresaw in five or 10 years. And generally speaking, most people significantly overestimated how much capacity they would need. So unsurprisingly, there is a ton of data center real estate out there that is incredibly poorly utilized. And one of the challenges, so the pressure in terms of creating capacity for, especially some of the hyperscalers but lots of other organizations to be able to deploy capacity has meant that there has been this huge construction boom in the data center industry in the last 18 months. People have had to build new buildings to house data center infrastructure. And that's quite a contrast to what we've been doing. So in, and by the way, don't get me wrong, our business has grown incredibly quickly in this time, but we've actually only built one new data center to be able to create that capacity. And most organizations that know us, certainly all of our customers know that we build a new data center as a last resort. Our job is to take existing underutilized infrastructure in the market and multi-tenant it. So for the organizations that are looking for capacity, we can do both things that they need. We can give them capacity, we can give it to them fast, but we can do it in an incredibly sustainable way because we're not having to build new buildings. And so there's more than one way of solving the pressure problem. The challenge however is for those that have chosen to simply go build new because it's either easy or not necessarily sure what the sort of rationale is always for doing that. But the reality is that we're creating as a result of this huge spike in demand, we're creating a carbon footprint that we can't walk back from. You can't unbuild a building. We're talking about facilities where there are hundreds of thousands of tons of embodied carbon that is just gone. Once that carbon is embodied, it's gone. It's gonna sit there for the next 25 years. So I think that's one of the things that we have to think about. We talked about the necessity of demand driving innovation. I think we have to think about innovations at multiple levels of the stacks. It's not just about technology, but it's about construction. How do we build buildings? How do we use buildings? How do we do all of those things as responsibly as possible? We talked about it earlier I think in the sort of breakout. The couple of generations from now, the pandemic might be a distant memory. There'll be people who didn't ever experience it in the same way that most of the people in this event didn't experience the Spanish flu. But those buildings and the fact that that carbon has effectively gone, that is going to remain in place. I think that's something that we have to think through as an industry, very, very carefully in terms of how do we invest? Where do we invest? And how do we use what's already there before creating shiny new things? I think you raise a very good point and we'll be talking about the carbon front print a bit later as well in more detail. But I mean, the server-fired business model is very interesting. So for you to say that you've had to go out and build a new facility, they in itself tells a lot of how the pandemic has gone. Right, last resort. Yeah, so we've had to deal with the last resort. And by the way, there are some places in the world where organizations need to be that you have to build. And of course that makes sense, but the thing about last resort says you don't want to do the last resort as the first step. No, that's why it's called a last resort. Exactly. But Aaron, let me bring in Isaac now, because I know Isaac, you want to add something as well. Yeah, sure. I'll take it sort of beyond just that ICT, pressures on the ICT infrastructure, information and communication technology infrastructure. The biggest pressures, at least from my perspective, we have to understand that the project when it comes to, so we deploy networks as well. We plan them, deploy them, operate them. So one of the biggest pressures that we've experienced and learned to manage is the pressures on projects, specifically network deployment projects, on project schedules, and coming from the supply chain disruption that has happened whether it's on the demand side, pressure because the demand has increased in one industry versus the other, or it's the supply side because factories had to be closed because of the pandemic, because the virus spread in a specific factory or a community and that created a disruption in the supply side as well. So that pressure, those kind of pressures triggered us to rethink this whole concept of planning, building and then operating ICT infrastructure. And then we had to adopt sort of a risk-informed system life cycle management-based approach, going from planning to building to operating to even retirement and disposal, which is where the whole carbon footprint discussion comes in. You have to look at the complete system, not just the specific ICT need. And you have to look at the entire life cycle. From the moment you put a pen to paper or nowadays a pen to iPad and start planning the network, to the moment that you're going to retire it, what's your retirement strategy? How are you going to dispose of the equipment once it reaches end of life? That sort of, and then looking at it from a risk management perspective, what are the risk, integrated risk going beyond just this project, beyond just my organization in integrated across the globe? Remember, in the past 30 years, human societies across the globe now are more connected than ever. And we still don't understand the complexities. One of the lesson learned going back to the previous question is that we still don't understand the complexities that he have created by going for economic globalization over the past few decades. It's time to sit down, take a step back, understand those complexities, understand the risk that are introduced because of it and manage them proactively because our customers specifically in Redline's case are most of our customers are in critical industries. You disrupt the energy pipeline. You disrupt the electric utilities. That's a big impact. That risk has to be managed. So for us, that was the biggest pressure and that's, I'd say one of the biggest lessons learned and the approach that we had to take. I think the complexities are very important topic. I mean, we see now in emerging markets that didn't have the infrastructure and services, how they are doing things differently from us now that we have so much legacy infrastructure and we have to deal with so much old, I don't know if I should call it old, but old infrastructure and all the ways of working. It's interesting to see some of the emerging markets, especially around Southeast Asia, what they are doing in that sense as well. But let me bring Dave now, Dave. Yeah, I think one of the things that has seen increased pressure maybe caused by this elasticity in the infrastructure is our ability to secure the infrastructure and secure the endpoints that are connected to this infrastructure. I think one of the tenets of cybersecurity is to protect and then connect. And because everybody needed to adapt so fast, there was a temptation by a lot of organizations to connect and then protect. To allow the workforce to be able to work from home and maybe for a time period there, and I know not specifically with our clients, but in many instances where cybersecurity may have taken a backseat to getting connectivity in place so productivity didn't have to decrease. So I think the pressure on infrastructure has shown that the infrastructure is elastic. It has the ability to scale obviously with some hard work and investment, but our ability to secure it is still yet to be proven. And there's a lot of pressure there right now in order to do that, both on the infrastructure side and all the way to the end users. Okay, actually let me pick up on the security because we've already got someone mentioning security as well in the chat. From what you guys have seen since this whole thing started, let's say March last year, what kind of pressure has secured, I know Dave you just mentioned a little bit of it, but what kind of pressure has the cybersecurity felt as a consequence of the pandemic formed within your different industries? Maybe Brian? Yeah, so I was actually having a conversation with an insurance broker yesterday and regarding cybersecurity policies which protects against data breaches. And he was saying that there's been a 400% increase in policy claims in the last year alone. And it is almost entirely due to workers working from home. Data breaches coming through VPN tunnels for instance, where a work from home worker is establishing a connection to their corporate network and various network security protocols are not put in place. The encryption is not what it should be. And that VPN tunnel is essentially creating a backhaul backdoor into that corporate network and therefore creates a data breach. So pretty amazing and hackers obviously realize this and they're smarts and they're constantly adapting and they seek out the weakest link and the weakest link are those work from home workers and their home networks. So it's really important to make sure that the same security protocols are used in the corporate location are being passed down to those home networks as well. And network administrators really need to stop stop looking them as home networks and start considering them satellite locations to their corporate network. So we're talking about segregating the network at that home away from the other people at home like your kids. So not all applications should be going through your work network. So you're going to need Wi-Fi. You need to tighten up the Wi-Fi at your home network. Make sure it's a completely separate SSID from the rest of the house. Again, encryption is key for the VPN and then obviously the collaboration tools and everything else that goes along with that are essential. So, but cybersecurity has absolutely become essential at the home network as well. And we've seen some recent news as well of a lot of companies making the move towards upgrading and upping their game when it comes to cybersecurity. Even today, yesterday actually with Microsoft as well as I keep mentioning Microsoft. Dave, sorry. Yeah, I just think along those same lines we took workforces that were kind of under the corporate office umbrella and distributed amount to their homes. It's generally easier to defend one single point of contact. And your corporate office acted as that single point of contact or single tunnel to the information that you have. The distribution of the workforce and the distribution of the tools that we use. Cloud applications open a lot of, they open a lot of doors for adversaries to come in and penetrate an individual employee and then ultimately your organization. So, putting protection out of the edge, just as Brian mentioned, from an application standpoint, from an employee training standpoint is so critical to the way that we work now. Okay, Aaron? Yeah, just to kind of build on what Brian and Dave said. So the threat of extra from a security perspective has also changed. And at the risk of kind of simplifying sort of criminals and putting them into sort of an amorphous group guess what, they're distributed and they're working from home just as everyone else. And the availability of things like Root Kids and everything else, there's almost a sort of a democratization of hacking. So it is not just that we took infrastructure that previously lived in a building and distributed it out to people's homes. We actually did the same with the threat vectors at the same time. So it's not that we took a thousand laptops that used to be in a building and sent them to a thousand homes. We almost created the same sort of perfect storm for people who for various reasons didn't have work, for example. It had easy access to the technology to be able to do these things. And the fact that, and I think it was Brian that mentioned, that might be Dave, that they sort of connect first and then protect later, created a thousand open doors as opposed to maybe one that was much, much harder to find. So there's a sort of a scale of the problem that this is kind of really become interesting. But we also, we kind of tend to think about security from a cyber perspective. There's physical security as well. So when the data center industry built a whole bunch of new buildings, created new capacities for all of the customer demand, there are only so many mechanical electrical technicians that you can find in the world to run infrastructure. And they are often the least replaceable person in a facility, because you don't have 20 of them on standby waiting for someone to be ill that can't go to work. And that level of security is a physical security and access of employees and engineers into environments. That's been equally challenged, where people haven't had the ability to get to work through illness, finding suitable resources to be able to supplement them is very, very tough. So we're sort of facing this sort of very multifaceted security challenge where that landscape of the, I guess the aggressor of the victim, both have sort of scaled up in an enormous way. And well, I guess we're going to need a lot of technology to solve the problem as well, because this isn't a problem that you solve by throwing more people at it. Yeah, and I guess the good thing you make as well is that we are still living through this. We are not talking from a perspective that are on the other sides of this pandemic. We are still going through the pandemic, at least in Northern Hemisphere, most likely it's going to last until summer next year. It's going to last at least three or four more years across the world. So this is a very recurring conversation. And like Isaac was saying, we need to take that step back to also look into how doing these things better. And Isaac, did you want to add anything on a security front? Yeah, on the side, but just from the, again, critical industry perspective, the key aspect here is understanding the sort of, the sort of the key difference between the needs of IT and what we call OT operation technology. The underlying technology may be similar, but whereas IT manages information, OT manages physical processes in an industrial infrastructure. So for example, an AF quality monitoring system in an underground mine, which means that the threat is not just from a hacker. In some cases, the system might be closed. So remote access may not be that easy, but it is vulnerable to mistakes, to human error. And that can impact the physical process on which human lives and capital intensive assets depend upon. So from that perspective, the more connectivity is demanded and the more complex that infrastructure becomes, the more IT converges with OT, the cybersecurity risk goes up. And I'll repeat the same mantra, take a step back, understand the risk, do your homework before a network is operationalized, while it is being planned, before it is deployed, that homework needs to be done, the complexity needs to be understood, and that impact needs to be understood. So while the demand for bandwidth may be increasing or the demand for different type of communication infrastructure may be increasing, and there's pressures to sort of do it right away. When it comes to critical industries doing that homework, your diligence is actually very important and it's not a process that can be bypassed. Okay, thank you Isaac. I've actually just realized that we're nearly running out of time. This is going very smooth today. If anyone got any questions, do raise your hand up with them in the chat and they will try to get them answered as quickly as possible. But let me jump into the, I'm gonna jump several questions that I had in my mind, but let me go into climate change, carbon footprint, because I mean, Aaron has already mentioned it. I think Isaac has already also mentioned it. I mean, how can we ensure that what we are doing now is gonna help us achieve that 0% carbon footprint that we want to achieve. Most of the industry wants to achieve it by 2030. How can we ensure that that happens despite all these sudden demands that's forcing us to expand so much infrastructure? Roshnak? I can start. There is a lot that can be done, but the top three in my mind are plan for as much renewable energy as possible, deploy lower energy devices and support clean energy solutions. Okay, short and sweet. Thank you. Isaac? Yeah, I would say a very simple answer and people can think about it, but there was sort of a move from the 70s or this concept adopted that businesses, companies basically owe their existence and owe their allegiance, their core responsibility to the shareholders. And that is what drove all the decision making and which made the financial bottom line in everything we do the most important factor. I say that needs to change. We need to understand that corporations do not exist in vacuum. Societies around us actually give us a license to operate a business. So it's a privilege. It's not a right to operate a business. And hence that the interest that needs to be protected is not just of the shareholder. The shareholders are a major stakeholder, but we need to again take a system wide approach to it. The organizations do not exist in a vacuum and anything we do, concepts like triple bottom line, the financial as well as social and environmental impact needs to be understood. So but that is sort of the approach. I'd say high level, that needs to change. That's interesting and I guess that's true as well. I mean, especially in the data center sector, we offer so much back into the community. I mean, staff and you're in Sweden. Sweden is a huge market where there's a lot of heat reuse, for example, one of the pioneers in heat reuse in Europe. And also interesting is to see how much the pandemic has speeded up the bond raising for ISG, ISG budgets. And we've just seen it's nearly every week is another billion of dollars, two billions, three billions every week going into environmental issues. Aaron? So Roshnak said three things that make absolute sense. I mean, they're exactly the right things to do, but they imply a level of maturity on, as the sort of the wider industry. And the reality is that as an industry, let's think about the industry as the IT consumer of data centers. The IT consumer is one of the least efficient infrastructure businesses in the world. And if I think about this in the context of real estate, you imagine running a hotel chain. Imagine you had 100 hotels and you were trying to make a business out of 30% occupancy. You wouldn't last five minutes. You just wouldn't survive as a business. But somehow that level of utilization in a data center is an acceptable thing. And I think what we have to do first is we've got to really take stock. And what Ishak said is absolutely right. We have to kind of take a little bit of a step back and say, what do we have? How did we get here? And how do we ensure that we don't just keep kind of compounding mistakes on mistakes and sort of carry on the same sort of behavior? Most data centers today, and if I set the hyperscalers to the side because they have a very different model, most data centers today are still dealing with the problems that they created for themselves 20 years ago, where they allowed businesses inside of the company to have their own infrastructure and put their arms around bits of infrastructure and say, that's mine. I don't want to share the space or capacity with anyone else. And they allowed thousands of business units inside a company to do that. And so they sort of created this huge sprawl of extremely inefficient infrastructure. And we have to solve that problem because the reality is this is a problem that's building that isn't going to be one that we're going to be paying the sort of price off. It's our children and it's their children after them. And we really owe it to them to get our act together on this. I think we'll be dealing with the scars of the post-pandemic digital infrastructure, if you can call it that way, for a long time, I guess, as well as we evolve. But guys, well, I think there's pretty much all the time that we have for, I would stay here talking for ages. We had so much more to go through. We didn't get through it. We maybe can do a roundtable 2.0. Maybe once we get the vaccination a bit more through markets as well. But even the battle between emerging markets and front-end markets and developed markets, there was something I wanted to talk about, and I guess we'll have to discuss it in the backstage. But thank you, everyone, and that's all the time that we've got for today. And on behalf of our panelists, I'd like to thank everyone for tuning in and for participating in today's roundtable. Just a quick reminder, our speakers are staying on for the remainder of the lunch hour to answer any more of your questions. So meet them back in the networking lounge at that table. And to you, our viewers, if you were one of the first 100 registrants, we hope you enjoyed our lunch. Make sure you visit us at jsa.net to register for more upcoming JSA virtual roundtables, including our next one, which takes place on September the 16th, where leaders in our industry will talk about marketing strategies for post-pandemic and discuss top trends and tools for the network infrastructure industry. With that, we wrap up today's roundtable. Look out for the playback of this session coming soon to JSA TV and JSA broadcasts on YouTube, iTunes, iHeart, Spotify, you name it. In the meantime, see you back in the networking lounge and happy networking.