 Hello and welcome. It's great to see you all here. This is the second installment of our research seminar here at the Japan Research Center at SOAS. My name is Fabio Gigi and I'm here with Dr. Yona Siderer. So we decided for this term to focus on both science and technology in contemporary Japan, but also on the history of science. And this talk really came out of a discussion that we had after a talk given last term by Dr. Aya Home. And so I invited Dr. Siderer because I realized that her work is really very interesting and fills sort of a gap that we haven't really addressed, which is looking at the history of science in Japan, and more importantly also in the sort of transnational context of how knowledge is created, how things are translated. So Dr. Yona Siderer is at the Edelstein Center for the History and Philosophy of Science, Technology and Medicine at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem. She holds a Bachelor in the Master in Science in Physical Chemistry from the Hebrew University of Jerusalem, a PhD from the Weizmann Institute of Science and an MBA from Tel Aviv University. So she has had a very long and distinguished research career that took her from Israel to Japan to the USA to Italy and to England. She's also a poet and a painter, as you can see in the background, and she has published several poems in English, but also in Japanese. She's a member of the Japanese Society for the History of Chemistry, among other associations. And her talk today is entitled Udagawa Yohan, pioneer of botany and chemistry studies in Japan from Western sources. I'm very happy to chair today. Welcome Dr. Yona Siderer and over to you. Thank you very much Fabio. Thank you for the invitation. And if I may have the first slide please, by Zoom. So that's our destiny nowadays. Thank you. Next one please. So my talk will be concentrating on short bio of Udagawa Yohan. He lived in the first half of the 19th century. His chemistry studies semi-Kaiso, introduction to chemistry, and mainly talk about. And it's revised version of 1975. Then I'll speak about botany in Shoko Gaguke again, principle of botany, and his plant drawing, fabulous paint drawing. And I give an example. The main point is direct and indirect sources from which he translated and studied. And I bring one example. I bought a new book by Strengele that was given to Yohan. And then I want to stop on the acknowledgement. Many people helped me along the way in reference. The article about the chemistry was published in last March in Substancia Journal of the History of Chemistry. So you'll see it again later. Next one please. So a short bio. He was born in 1798 and passed away in 1846. And he was a scholar of many talents. And I touched few of them today. He was a medical doctor, like Chinese, Japanese medical doctor of Tsuyama town in Okayama, which is in central Honshu. And nowadays he studied chemistry, other topics like musical instrument, geography, history of Holland, playing cards. And he wrote an early article about coffee and many more. He studied many languages, like classic Chinese in his childhood, Dutch, and then somewhat German, Latin, Greek. And I saw in Tsuyama archives Arabic letters that he copied. It is also told to stay on a British ship for three nights in order to learn English. Next one please. Here is a drawing showing Udagawa Ion-Sensei and the first page of Semi-Kaiso will take another look at it soon. Next one. Before Semi-Kaiso that I'm going to speak about, he also wrote other chemistry books, including metal chemistry, dyeing of fabric chemistry, earth chemistry, non-metal chemistry, and note on western mineral springs. And he made experiments of water content in several provinces. So no Tugi, Udagawa. Here is the first page of Semi-Kaiso. And on the left side, I found the full set of seven books at the same edition collection of the History of Science at the National Library of Israel in Jerusalem. And Dr. Sidney Edestein was a chemist and industrialist in America and a bibliophile. And he donated his collection of old scientific books to the National Library of Israel. It's excellent. And the first page that we see on the right gives the apple line the date which equals to 1837. In the middle is the title and Semi is like Shimi in French or Dutch. And on the left side of the third page there is a warning against forgery against false production of this book. Okay. Introduction to chemistry. And he's considered the first book in modern chemistry in Japan. And it was published along 10, 11 years. And the book is translated from several European languages. And the question I ask is what books did Udagawa translate from? Here we see the first two pages of Udagawa and Semi-Kaiso, book one, volume one, page seven. And we see several circles there. So each circle gives the first letter of the author in the kanji abbreviated and the name of the book according to your translation and some names of some books. So all together 24 circles. And it's written in kanji and katakana that were used those days. And we take another look at it later. Okay, please. So a list of the authors that appeared on that page include many names. I don't call really all of them, but I highlighted Lavois Zier from France, which was translated by Yipei, a Dutch fellow. Henry also was very much used and Henry was from England, very popular. He turned them over and contemporary and colleague of Lavois Zier method the nomenclature chimique. They wrote together with two other fellows. Tromsdorf from Germany. He wrote his own chemistry book, but also translated Henry's book. Segur is another interesting story. I'm not stopping on it today. Letters from a friend who studied in Paris chemistry to his friend who didn't attend the lecture and it was translated into Japanese. And Kat Smolenburg is a Dutch and he mentioned many other books, other chemists that you didn't have and you could learn from those. Okay, please. So from those books, he could find what Bercelius from Sweden wrote, David from England, Doulon, Gaelosat from France, and many more. So actually he studied more than the book he listed above and from those he chose what text and what author to cite. He really wanted to make the material digestible to Japanese readers. Most of the scenes were very new to them and he also wanted it to be applicable so that they can use what they learn to implement in chemical experiments or chemical industry. Okay, here we can see some of the first pages of some of those books translated. And the left, very left, is the La Boisier, a threat element, the Shimi, and next to it is its Dutch translation. In the middle is William Henry Shimi, Dutch translation of 1803. And on the very right is Leerbuer de Sekunde in Dutch from 1877. So really those scenes were left in the Udegawa house and they're collected and Udegawa belonging are now kept in at least four places in Japan. In Osaka, as mentioned later, in Tsuyama, the town he came from and where his graveyard is now. And also Kyoto University and Wasuda University also had in Tokyo a lot of his belonging. Some published and some just draft of what he was studying. Okay, here another example, Bergman from Sweden chemistry in French and also in Dutch on the right side also is citing Bergman studies of minerals in hot springs. Oh well. And then what I showed you, the first page are quite difficult even for Japanese nowadays. So in 1975, Yuan Semi Kaiso was rewriting in modern Japanese, including translator's comments. And it's a big book and quite expensive and it is based as I said, 24 chemistry books and more. And Tanaka Minoru, 1975 version of Semi Kaiso enables and facilitates the research of Yuan's chemistry studies. And photos of several of Yuan apparatus drawings and copies of foreign books covers, we just saw are included. If we can see the next slide please. Here are some of the experiments and Yuan's apparatus drawing on the left side is the Volta column to produce electricity. And Yuan wrote very much detail how you make this column from a silver plate and single copper plate alternating to produce the current there. And on the right hand, some other experiment of pressure of water and air. So he was really dedicating and I think this lower part shows some copy from foreign drawings, but I don't know for sure. Okay. Here I mentioned that not only Semi Kaiso, but even before that he was playing how to write what is the best way, what country combination or what kind of Katakana combination. All many various possibilities also for coffee, Koji, coffee and so on. And on the right side he drew the coffee can and also made one. And when I visited to Yama archive or coffee place actually they served us coffee from this kind of coffee can made after the guy Yuan's fabrication. Okay. Here is a copy of the cover of a book by Tatsumasa professor, Tatsumasa one of the other professors. And he called it Dawn of Japanese Science. And the cover is a photo of chemical bases and the tubes left in Wundagawa family house. And his knowledge as I mentioned included medical helps. He went to the fields to look for some special herbs to make modicine and then botany classic Chinese study from his stepfather Wundagawa Genshin. And then that says his chemistry, element name in Latin, made many drawings, music, English, Russian, German, Latin and so on. So really a very capable, very genius like one of the Japanese, right? Leonardo da Vinci of Japan about him. Okay. Here is a page of this 1975 books. So the upper sub part is the pages we saw before and on mineral spring. And the lower part is the recent writing. Now is a kanji and Hiragana, as is used nowadays, whereas Katakana is used for foreign names of places, people and chemicals. And this book holds 570 pages and also some additional explanation and books about article about these those translators. And I must say Hayashi Yoshihide and Kurokuri Seiji, because all this tells how to translate it to recent modern language. What did he mean? Where did he take his understanding from? Is very much appreciated by me anyway. Okay. So what did he write about? He wrote about solution, oxygen, nitrogen, carbon, explaining, looking for what special kanji combination to use for nitrogen and other scholars use a different kanji combination and eventually he's the one of his term survived. And chemical affinity and caloric salts, phosphoric acid, ammonia, all these things he tries and explain in a very short way. Oxidation, reduction of metal, glass, ingredients of water and hot spring. And then one book, book six, tells about organic acid in plant, like citric acid, oxalic acid, and very many more. And you uncoined mentioned 58 chemical elements that some of them, not all of them were known to chemists by those days. And he wrote five mistaken ones, like light and caloric. But he wrote a sample substances and he put light and caloric as elements. So no wonder he made the same attributes. And from the list of words he wrote, I want to mention a couple of terms, like the crystal he coined Ketsusho. And he also copied very many shades of drawings of different crystals and gave them the Japanese title. And another nice term for sublimation, shoka, you know, in chemistry the material moving from solid to gas without going through liquid. But this sublimation is also used today in psychology. So I think it's a very nice choice by Johan to make this shoka that is applicable today in chemistry and psychology. Okay, I moved to Johan's botany book. As I mentioned, he learned herbal plants and botany before his chemistry studies. But he drew plants as organs and coined terms for those plant organs and also tried to follow Linnaeus nomenclature of families of plants to implement it to Japanese plants. Quite heavy stuff there. But again, in 2014, four Japanese scholars started Johan writing and drawing of plants. And for that work, Johan received some help and advice from the German physician, Fonsiebold, who worked with the Dutch delegation in the Schema Island near Nagasaki. And also the pharmacist Boerge, who was able to help and continue when disabled was forced to leave Japan. Chemistry work supported, this is very important, Takeda Science Foundation. Takeda is a big pharmaceutical company, but they realize because of many floods and many fires, they want to preserve this ancient, scientific work. And they have many of the people who are Johan's original writing. And I have a chance with a Japanese colleague, Uchida Masao, to visit this Osaka Takeda Science Foundation. It's like a vault. It's very severely preserved and we had to write in advance what we are looking for. They let us look at the original only for a short time and then for copies. And when I wanted to take some, again, we had to fill some forms and apply and only later they sent it to me. So, this Fonsiebold, as I said, we see here is with a uniform of the Dutch armies that he joined and then was sent to first to Java and then to Japan, to the Schema. Next one, please. And Johan heard about him and he wanted to befriend with him. So, he didn't meet him until 1826, but already 1824, apparently he sent him a very famous, very rich book by Utamaro, Book of Insects. And it comes in two parts, putting them one near the other. It's another lecture that should be given another time. And he wrote them from your sincere friend with Agawa Johan, 1824, and he wrote in Dutch. And maybe the next, this is, I saw in Leiden in the Ethnological Museum and the curator there, Jan, helped me to really have a chance to see. I'm very much obliged to him. Next one, please. Here we can see. Johan was also, before he wrote his own book, he was enlarging his father's botany book. And his botany book, Schokogegeke principle of botany. And we see in the drawing here that he puts many parts of the plant there and giving name to each of these parts, whatever he could learn and decipher, and also was, as I said, was given help in some of this drawing from Fonsierbult. Next one, please. Here I can show you. This is the studies on Utagawa Johan botany work housed in the Akio Library in the Kedasauz Foundation. And if I tell you the secrets, I bought first the chemistry book. And I saw this book just briefly with the library of source, the Japanese librarian Fujii, I think her name was. I think she doesn't work. And then when I wrote to the agent who, who sold me the chemistry book, I said, I want to buy this botany book. And she wrote me back. She said, it's not for sale. But the company said, if you write them gift request, they will send you the book. And eventually, I wrote the request and couple of weeks later, there was a messenger in my door and he brought me this wonderful book. And I realized it's written there. There are only 600 volumes. It's not for sale. But source do have it in case you want to look more. Okay, next one. Here again, my honor to the respect to the translators. I had the chance to speak with Noboshi Gekato in Tokyo, one of the translators also corresponded with him. Masataka Koda and Kiyoshi Matsuda. And the book is mainly in Japanese, but it does have an English abstract. So in Utagawa Johan is part of the title of the book. Okay. And the names of the authors of the original books for this botany book. And those include books in Dutch, English, and German. So we can see Ludwig, a big book of 1757. And this researcher said that they think he, Johan, studied a lot, mainly from Ludwig, but I'm not sure if only from him. There is an Englishman, Buster, and Noel Churmel is encyclopedia from French and Dutch. And as I said, Johan studied first the word botany from him. And the book in English by Thomas Martin, many drawings there that Johan could copy some of those drawing from there. And Yipei, we saw already, translated both into Dutch, both chemistry and botany. And Joachim Sprengel book in German I'll stop and show a little bit more about him, his book then. Okay. Here are some of the drawings, flowers drawn by Johan in one of the two drawing books of plants. And it also showed the table wrote flowers named in the bottom of each of these flowers, like Pyrrhus, Japanica, Thunberg, THS for Thunberg, one of the first Swedish even 1774-56 that he was in Japan and studied a lot of those plants before. And also another plant, Smilax. Next one please. The one I like very much is this Nassu Japanese eggplants. And you can see how he really draws the flower in the face by the side and in the back, studying each of the details of this plant. And Johan also wrote there some of his understanding of the name there. The other photo is another of the plants. And this one actually fulciabold. He sent it to Johan and he wrote him, I gave this plant your name. It's written in the upper left corner, it's difficult to say, but he here gave the name, Johan's name is the courtesy of their friendship again before departure really. Okay, so this Nassu is excellent and the sources, what sources and Johan, I studied a lot from the PhD study a dissertation of Togo Tsukohara, now professor in Kobe. And he mentioned the book by McLean, Japanese studies in the history of science, introduction of books, and scientific instruments into Japan. We'll see some more next slide, just a minute. And Sprengen, introduction to Botany from Halle. And this was the gift, fulciabold gift to Johan in 1826. And it was another reference book for Shoko Kagan. Another source, books donated by members of the Dutch delegation, the Shima. And when they had to leave Japan, some of them, they gave the books they had, they owned to the scholars. There was a translation bureau of Western books founded in 1811. And Johan became a member of this official member in 1826. So they had some colleagues they could consult with while working occasionally. Okay. So what was the origin of those books? There was a shipping books and scientific instruments from Holland to Japan. A source survey archive was carried out by McLean, searching for the year 1712, 1854. He studied the records of the Dutch factory in the Shima and this island near Nandesaki in Japan, where the Dutch delegation was sitting. And also from colonial records, both preserved in the state archive in the high end, the Netherlands. And only these ships when they arrived, the delegation had to go from Nandesaki all the way to Edo, Tokyo, every half a year, later every one year, and to bring gifts to the Shogun there and information about what's going on in the world. So that was part of exchanging gifts and knowledge between those delegation and the rulers and scholars there. McLean listed the year that the ship arrived, its name, its captain name, the scientific instruments it wrote, and books that were imported. And the name of those who ordered those items are also listed like some of the rulers of some of the provinces. It says he ordered it and many dictionaries of like even Dutch dictionary or Dutch German dictionary. Some dictionary were also quite useful, and microscopes and telescopes and some measuring tools were also shipped to Japan. Okay, I want to show one of the translation example, introduction to Botany. This is the book cover I showed, the middle one of these three pieces, and Siebel in his dedication to Johan wrote to my eager to learn friend Wudagawa Johan in Dutch. And on the other side, Wudagawa Johan wrote his feeling and knowledge. He said Sprengel was a member of many scholarly society and in the management of a botanical garden in Halle. And he added, this is from a new handshake, Wurden, by Wudagawa Johan. So really there was a good exchange of information between them. Actually in 1826, when the delegation, one of those Dutch delegation came to Edo, they stayed in one hotel. And for several times, Johan and other scholars could visit the Dutch delegation members there and exchange information. Okay, I'm nearly there. And that Sprengel book in German, Johan realized that the German is similar to Dutch. So he opened a notebook called Sprengel Lexicon, and it holds 70 pages. And there are three colors of German, Dutch, and Japanese. And for instance, two examples, Bluthen in German, he wrote Bluthen or Blythum. And then he translated Hanasepun, Blasm. And also for German Blau, we didn't add the Dutch, but you could write in Japanese Oy blue. So by these 70 pages, and it says in the yellow page, you can see it's alphabetically ordered. Also, you can see the mark of what worms were reading and eating some of those pages during the years. So really very authentic representation. And I think next one is about to bring us to a summary. Udagarai Johan studied book in chemistry and botany from Europe that were imported to Japan by Dutch ships. In his book, he relied upon many various sources originally in Dutch, and then in English, French, Latin, and Swedish. He invented terms for chemistry. Some of his terms are still in use today. And Johan's successor that I didn't touch today continued and deepened basic and applied chemistry studies. And along the year, Prosperous chemical industry was developed in Japan. And since 1981, Fukui Kenichi from Kyoto was the first one to receive Nobel Prize in chemistry, Japanese. And by 2019, Akira Yoshino, altogether eight Japanese who awarded Nobel Chemistry Prizes. So this is really quite impressive, I think. And I want to thank, in the next slide, many of my colleagues along the year. Professor Masanori Kaji passed away a few years ago. He was the first one who mentioned Udagarai Johan to me. Professor Shin Sato was my first professor as a student Tokyo Institute of Technology and still continued all these years to advise and support my writing. Professor Friedrich Kreis in Ichibunken in Kyoto was my host there for one year and still helped me with understanding some of the Japanese thought. Professor Tetsume Doke, one of the first ones to study Udagarai Johan. Professor Toru Azuma is studying word by word, sentence by sentence, where did Johan learn from? Professor Yasu Furukawa, one of the historians of chemistry, also studied in America. And I took a seminar for half a year with him. Professor Hirofumi Ochiwai is a colleague in the philosophy of chemistry, international company. Masumi Osawa gave me original semi-keisobu copies, maybe six of the seven volumes. Masao Uchida helped me in the very beginning and the Osaka visit. Togo Tsukahara, PhD studies I mentioned. Naoto Omichi helped me with these faking announcement translations. Kato Noboshige is the Botani Professor. You know Dr. Yaku Bektas is my colleague at Tokyo Institute of Technology, very hospitable and helping me with finding my ways. Dr. Karl Grandin in Sweden, in Stockholm, Royal Sweden Science Society. Professor Shimon Vega and Dr. Joachim Begralf helped me with Dutch translation. My friend Dr. Nomi Sofele helped me with editing. And then I had many colleagues from the Japanese Society for the History of Chemistry and Labrarian in Japan, Israel, England and Holland helped me just as well. I skipped the references one next one. Once you want them, you may get them later. And maybe the last item here is a joint work by Kuchiyoshi Yuki and my set, The History of Chemistry in Japan. It's about to be published in Asia Camp very soon. And the last one is the source. Let's slide please. Yeah, this volume of Substancia of March and the article about the chemistry studies, much more detailed that I could present tonight here. Thank you very much. Thank you very much. That was a fascinating journey from all the way from the 18th century up to the present with the Nobel Prize winners. I wanted to remind the audience that you can ask questions via the Q&A function, but also you can put them into the chat. And if you want to speak, you can raise your hands, functionalities you find at the bottom of the screen. Now I was wondering because I mean, there seems to be two things going on at the same time that I find very interesting. On one hand you have the translation, which really is a question often of invention as you have shown with those examples. Shoka for me was very interesting because that's also used in psychoanalytic translations for sublimation. And of course the German word that Freud uses is also the same words that is used in German in chemistry. So I was wondering where, so in a sense this allows us also to understand not only the origin of chemistry in Japan, but also how Ateji, for example, work when you show that small little table about coffee, right? How can you do that? One was wonderful, Kaudi no Yu, a sort of a smelling water or a fragrant water as a translation for coffee. And so I wanted to ask you, the Ateji for Semi, for Shimi, you said it was derived from French, but can you say some? Or Dutch, or Dutch actually. Or Dutch, right. And I was wondering what's the individual signs? Was there any reflection on how to translate that? How did you go from Shimi to Semi? I think it's more like Ateji, like phonetic reading, and yet there is some secret there. I think this kanji, I cannot show it, but you know, I found that it's the kanji for secret. So I think it's nice that even though it's just a phonetic, it has a connotation that there is something secret in the chemistry studies, so that's a smart. But I didn't mention later years, they do not use this term anymore, and the word is Kadaku, the art of change, which they took from Chinese. It's a Chinese writing, but Japanese reading Kadaku. Right. I think that in itself is very interesting. So it's from something secret, which is very much when chemistry came about, was the invisible building blocks of matter itself to something that is more focused on the idea of transformation. I think that's very interesting. So we have a question in the Q&A function, and I shall read it out. Thank you very much, Dr. Siddharer. The question is from Carlos Andres Barbosa Cipeda. I'm especially interested in how Utagawa's knowledge of Chinese classics influenced his translation decisions. To mention a very interesting example, Kangen for reduction. Utagawa Yuan was sent as an adopted child to Utagawa family, and he started with Utagawa Genshin, and he wanted to study Dutch. But Genshin said, no, you must learn classic Chinese first. And also in order to be able to be a formal translator, Dutch is not sufficient and not at all. Dutch is important. And then he had a very vast knowledge of Kanji, from which to choose from. And I don't remember now the terms for my reduction, sorry. Thank you. There's another question in the chat from Petja Triplet. Thank you so much for your informative presentation on this fascinating scholar. I was wondering if you have come across an English translation or other European language of Yuan's Bodani Kakyo. It is quoted a lot, but it seems that it has not been translated yet. Translation of what? Say it again, please. Bodani Kakyo. You can see, if you look at the chat, you can see the Kanji. It's like the Bodai starts and then Nika Kyokyo, like for Sutra. I suggest there is a mention in this English preface of the Bodani book. This is the Sutra of Bodani that is written in Kanji only. It's more ancient than Shokogetakege, but I have a paper in Japanese from Michibunken about it, but I don't remember seeing anything in English about it. But there was a study about him, about this Sutra. I cannot tell much more. Okay, thank you. Yes, this is recorded, and the recordings will be uploaded by next week. Donatella Faia from Genoa. Thanks very much for the interesting talk. I look forward to other talks about natural sciences in Japan until soon, I hope. Donatella Faia. Thank you very much. Right, any more questions? Please be not afraid to raise your hand or to put them into either the chat or into the queue and day. I also found very interesting the drawings that you said on one hand the galvanic column that was sort of reconstructed or redrawn by him, but the other ones illustrating the water pressure, they were probably copies. And I thought it was very interesting because you can only see the hand, but there is a quite elaborate sleeve on the arm. I thought that was an interesting detail, and I wonder whether that was part of whether he copied that or whether that was an addition. I assume so, but for the volta column in Tsuyama Western Archives, you can see a model of this volta column of the experiment that you are on device. And as I said, he wrote a detailed explanation how to construct by 30 or 15 layers of these point metals. And he also wrote that the silver side is called like anode, positive, and the other side is called any gives the Dutch terms that I don't remember, but the cathode, the negative. So we really understand that's what I is impressing. You really understand what he was writing about, or at least some of them. And actually, Tanaka Minoru in one of his articles mentioned some young misunderstanding or mistranslating of some of the things. And also one of the critics that he didn't write, did enter the term atom. He did write Gensou in the botany, like an element. But another point is that even in Europe, it was a time of chemistry progress. And some of the books in Dutch or other languages were not like the whole idea of a floggy stone. You get it or you don't get it. So when he was getting into some ideas that contradict each other, maybe he didn't know what to take and maybe he neglected it. So I think he didn't want to get into Dalton and that was done after him. Right. Thank you. There's another comment at the beginning. Thank you very much from Natsue Hayward. Thank you very much for the interesting talk. I would like to recommend a new book from Brill, The Dutch Language in Japan 1600 to 1900 by Christopher Joby, published in 2021. Not only about your botany and chemistry, but it can be interesting to some people. And again, if you have any more questions. I hope you'll send me the lecture later. Yes. And Natsue just added that covers a lot about translation process, about how terms were translated from Dutch into Japanese. There is another earlier book about botany, about Godeneu's translation. And there's several articles there and they show the difficulties in understanding and translating. And also the title of the Japanese books is changing from the Dutch. And that one is changing from the original one. So the work to decipher which book John was translating was something that the Japanese studied, but also Dutch people studied since still the 19th century. So that's another approach. And I mentioned somewhere there. There is a German dictionary of chemistry that you can read all the explanation, how Japanese term, or for instance, in a later article I published about translating Roscoe chemistry from English to is 1870 book from English to Japanese about the same time. But 1929 it was translated to Hebrew. And I showed the difference in the cultural aspects of the translation. And for instance, Japanese, if you take two sodium chloride, what you put first, the sodium or the chloride. And Israeli scholars also contemplated, should they say Natran Chlorae or Chlorida Natran? Should you see the cutium first or the onion first? And the number of atoms the Japanese put in the beginning of the formula. So those are very tiny, but important. John has some oxidation of nitrogen and oxidation of sulfur in very different stages. And there is, I have a table, how we translated the various oxidation set of the sulfur in the oxidized compounds. But I didn't want to enter into deep chemistry. Although really that is a very interesting question, right? What do you put first? Do you think there is sort of a cultural logic behind that? If you say sodium bicarbonate or carbonate sodium, where does the buy end up? But yes, I mean, the person who first came up with the term also had to make the decision, right? It's two components. So which ones did you put first? I think the Israeli scholars, but that's early, like in the 1930s, but they already knew the chemistry because they learned in German before. And they thought, but Israeli students will have to read English. It's better to put the Hebrew term in the English order, like sodium chloride and that run flowing this way. But Japanese is not the same. Okay. And that in a sense, yes, also brings up the question that you mentioned only briefly, the idea that I mean, obviously, this is not a body of knowledge that is static in any way, but each decade probably adds something new. And I wonder whether Udaghava Yohan was aware of that, that he was what he was compiling as sort of a canon of chemistry actually had very diverse sources, not only geographically, but also in terms of time, some of these things were published quite a bit earlier. And as you mentioned with the floggy stone, some theories sort of came in and out of fashion. Was there an awareness that this was not a sort of received body of knowledge, but something that is in the process of being discovered, so to speak? One of the remarks of the translators, they in the article I show they and the article is online and they show that there is like three books open in front of Yohan, like a small envelope and maybe Ipe and one more, I don't remember. And he looks at them and he decides he chooses what to take from. So it's like a thoughtful approach to distill in a short way what should be put in his book. And there is also a chronological biography of his, of his diaries that I didn't enter yet, but one day, but I think I have a lecture about the that I did give about the botany and I didn't publish yet. I hope I shall be able to do it sometime. Actually, my recent research is coming to the 20th century and is about a woman chemist, Kuroda Chika, and she started learning 1913 for the first time who could enter Tohoku Daigaku and graduated and there is a whole story there, also organic chemistry, plant chemistry. She also worked in Oxford couple of years, 1921, 23, eventually became a professor and very or hardly known out of Japan, maybe not so much in Japan as well. So my research now is about her. That sounds fascinating and that would add sort of, yes, coming up into the 20th century. So please, if you have any more burning questions, put them in the Q&A or into the chat. I have one more thing that I thought was really interesting. It's a bit speculative, perhaps, but when you showed the different terms that Udegawa Yohan sort of had to invent, so to speak, in order to translate, there was the term chemical affinity and I immediately was reminded of the ways in which chemical affinity, in the European world, how important it has become through the work of Goethe who wrote the whole play around this idea, yes, that there is some kind of underlying affinity that goes beyond kinship and later, of course, in Max Weber's work on Protestantism and the spirit of capitalism, where you also have this idea of chemical affinity. So it seems that the idea was used as a metaphor in sociology and in the social sciences more broadly to sort of express something that was very difficult to express without having this kind of chemical language. And I wonder whether there was anything similar happening in Japan. The topic of chemical affinity was very popular, like in William Henry books and so on. So what ion pushes another one from a compound, and there is a list of affinity tables and so on, but it didn't survive. I mean, it's not so much in use nowadays. So I don't remember entering into Yuan, but I think maybe Togo Tsukuhara in his PhD dissertation, I think he touched this topic a little bit more. Excellent, thank you. So if there are no further questions, I'm sort of counting down, then it remains for me to thank our speaker. Thank you very much for joining us today and to give us such an interesting presentation. We will continue in two weeks' time on February the 9th and we'll sort of return to the contemporary scene with two speakers, Daniel White from Cambridge and Hirofumi Katsuno from Doshisha University and they will be talking about animating amusements, the seriousness of robot play in contemporary Japan. So please join us then again and please join me in thanking Dr. Yona Sidderer for her talk today. Thank you. Thank you very much.