 Ant, are you going to get a handshake? Great. I don't know if. Thank you so much. I woke up this morning and I saw Remkis' check-in, and it said something like, welcome today to a word camp. Or as I like to call it, how am I still standing? So that's pretty appropriate for the day. So yeah, let's get started. Last month, a few colleagues and I, we visited a potential client here in Europe. And it's a brand name you all know. It's not uncommon for our business to meet with these kind of larger clients because we deal in enterprise work place. That's our space, right? And the purpose of this visit was a two-day workshop to refine the requirements that this business had and for us to be able to better explain how we would approach the execution of this project. Just click right here. And at the end of the second day, the project lead, who's also the product manager, asked me if, in my opinion, WordPress was the best solution for them. That's a bit of an awkward question because I'm obviously here to sell WordPress. But, you know, I was a little taken aback. But however, a question like that that demands trust has to be answered with honesty. I'll come back to that question. We all have our own personal WordPress origin story and it's great because of how wildly different they are. Not only have we all come here from very disconnected or unconnected sort of backgrounds, but even the work we end up doing in WordPress itself is very wide-ranging. My little story goes back almost 10 years when I was looking for a CMS through which I could template the designs I had created. Even though I had created my first website in 1995, it took a while before I turned my hobby into a full-time job. And once I did, I started creating small business websites. I continued building my theme shop. And, you know, I was just trying to figure out how to bring value to businesses. You know, just how do you actually build solutions that are valuable to them? And I have a lot to thank WordPress in that regard. It took me a long time to realize back then that WordPress itself is not actually a product. Sure, it's the actual piece of software, but if you want to attribute growth and success, then the real product was and is WordPress.org. A place where developers and site builders meet to exchange plugins, themes, reviews, ratings, feedback, discussions. And this WordPress ecosystem, that constellation gave me, you know, personally the feeling that with all of that, you could sort of achieve anything, right? You could build almost any use case without ever touching code. And in a weird kind of way, it felt like this unfair advantage, you know, compared to other businesses and agencies in the space who are selling other CMSs. And I think many other people felt that power, right? That with WordPress, you can do anything, right? And the realization I'm making now, however, quite a couple of years later, is that the work I was doing then isn't necessarily competitive or isn't necessarily considered competitive or affordable anymore by today's terms. The environment has radically changed, right? And continues to do so. But the key point here is that, at least for me, is that WordPress, as a consumer-facing brand, has become less relevant. It's transitioning from being this all-in-one solution to being this tool in larger technology stacks. It feels like it's out of the spotlight and, you know, given this reduction in exposure, I'd even go as far as to argue that we've reached peak WordPress and that that moment has come and gone. But then, and I can see it in your faces, you say, but no, WordPress is at 31% market share. It's the highest it's ever been. How can that be? I'm not disagreeing with the fact that WordPress is installed on 31% of domains. But to say that WordPress powers 31% of the web is stretching the truth. The CMS isn't necessarily the epicenter of the web anymore. You don't really have to have all your functionality inside of that. You know, you may use it for a bit of content marketing or a part of your website. You may use it just for a couple of landing pages. The use of WordPress today is very diverse. We need to think differently of how a product as mature as WordPress will continue to grow alongside this rapidly evolving web. To me, there are three general trends, I'd say, that stand out and are changing how WordPress is perceived and being used. As I mentioned before, I think the plug-in ecosystem is where a lot of the growth occurred. But now the web is kind of catching up. There's a lot of other solutions out there which are contributing to the kind of solutions and websites or web experiences or digital experiences we're building. Let's take this oversimplified visualization of requirements, right? On the left, we have simple websites. You know, that could be a couple of pages, contact forms, 14 or social media links, just a regular small business website. And on the right, we have more complex applications, e-commerce and what have you. And if we assume that WordPress can do anything, which it can, then the color blue represents WordPress. It fills the entire spectrum. Let's go back eight years or so. As we were, you know, as this plug-in ecosystem was doing very well and we were starting to, at least I was at the time starting to build a lot of WordPress websites. White represents the sort of solutions which are likely to be maybe more cost effective than WordPress, but still bring the same kind of business value, right? So on the very left, we might have the YOLO websites, right? So that's when you redirect your domain to your Facebook page and you kind of call it a day. And then you might have one or two website builders and that was kind of it. There wasn't that much action back then. In the middle, you have this sort of, yeah, you have some maybe some more specialized kind of website builders, maybe for like real estate agents or other kind of industries. And you also have this evolving market of software as a service, right? Specialized tools. And at the very right, you have enterprise, right? So like Magento or whatever, just being there, as usual. So in this scenario, we have WordPress, which is still very dominant, right? You see lots of blue and it fills lots of spaces and it's still a very useful and very consumer facing tool. If we fast forward to today, we see a lot more players enter the market, right? We have website builders that have TV ads. Some of them even have Super Bowl ads. We have plenty of website solutions for specific industries. We have lots of specialized software as a service, essentially providing more depth and more UI than a lot of WordPress plugins can. And we still have the enterprise, right? And WordPress can still do everything, but is it the most competitive solution then? That's the question. If we wanna take a slightly more scientific approach to this question, we can look at consumer trends over time. Here we're comparing WordPress, again represented in blue, against the mixed bag, Shopify, Wix, MailChimp, HubSpot, just various online solutions which are targeted to the business. We see here that WordPress in 2011 experienced somewhat of a peak for interest and then started to become less relevant to consumers directly, whilst other solutions increasingly grew in visibility. If we add up those other four companies in 2011, it's no match for WordPress, but in 2018, just those four companies alone already exceed the interest of WordPress as a topic. What's changed? For one, we're all using a lot more specialized software, right? We might have managed emails in WordPress someday in the past and then further down the road, we might have said, okay, we're gonna start using MailChimp because it has a lot of features. And now we're so far along the road that even MailChimp isn't enough. We might have one tool for newsletters. We might have one for transactional emails. We might have one for e-commerce and another for abandoned carts. And the list goes on, right? Specialization is increasing. Second, SaaS solutions are able to expose more complex business logic and solutions to non-technical users. So someone in a marketing department doesn't have to call a developer, you, me, or someone else to make a change, right? They can make that change directly in a tool which is completely closed off of code or anything like that and is geared towards business users. And to be honest, that makes sense, right? I mean, I look at a couple of use cases when let's say a friend comes to me and says, hey, I need a small business website or whatever, you know, what should I do? I mean, you'd think I'd say, well, you know, go on WordPress but I don't wanna deal with their problems, right? I don't wanna do tech support for them. I want them to be on a sort of closed solution where the only code they can touch is CSS and even that is a paid upgrade. So they're even defended against that, which is good because then there's also full documentation, full support and all these kind of things. So this layer of consumer facing solutions have really come a long way. If we were previously, you know, people who assembled websites for businesses and the technology was WordPress, then we kind of maybe had this hybrid product management role, right? Because we were managing email or marketing or landing pages or conversion rates or analytics inside the WordPress site and now we might have a more specialized role that's geared more to the core of WordPress. So I think that this generalist role is fading, right? We're now either WordPress specialists or marketing consultants or product managers and a few people are all around us. But that even doesn't scale to very complex projects where there's an increasing amount of specialization. And this is nothing new to the web, right? 20 years ago, we were all web designers. You know, this half of the room used Dreamweaver and this other half said, yeah, I know we write, we know we're cool and we write perfect, semantic, clean, HTML4 inside notepad, right? And that was it. And now it's such a diverse room. There is no such thing as a static role, even in WordPress, right? So we need to evaluate our roles and how we interact with WordPress and what is the value we bring. Another big topic or trend that we've seen in recent years is when products and services mature, platforms are starting to be built around them, right? Modern platforms are the applications that manage to connect two or more players and facilitate the exchange of value between them. So Airbnb, for example, might be the largest facilitator of apartment rentals, but doesn't actually own any apartments, right? It connects the apartment owners, right, the producers, with the guests, the consumers. And that is essentially what we've seen so much of when we hear the word disruption today. It's often about new platforms shaking up old industries. And this is also a large part of WordPress. And platforms in almost every sense always have two things in common. They own the transaction and they own the customer. In many ways, WordPress.org was ahead of its time in that regard, right? I mean, when I joined WordPress.org, there's already tens of thousands of plugins. The amount of interactions or transactions that occur on a daily basis are insane. Examples of transactions can be downloading a plugin, leaving a review, rating a plugin, rating a theme, providing feedback, or whatever. These are all valuable things that happen on a singular platform. WooCommerce is another great example, right? But this is with financial incentives. It's a marketplace where developers can earn revenue from connecting and providing solutions for shop owners. And we don't only see platforms evolving around plugins and themes, we also see them evolving around development work, right? This is Codable, which many of you know. Having grown their company alongside WooThemes, WooCommerce back in a day, and now being the sort of job work marketplace for the broader WordPress ecosystem. And this creates more confidence for the buyer, right? Let's take these two examples. Both these people on one of these job platforms has five stars. One has, I think, five reviews, four reviews, four finished projects, sorry, and the other one has 653. The same applies to plugins and themes, right? You decide in a moment which plugin you'll go with or theme or even developer based on very simple things. The platforms around hiring WordPress developers does lead into another segue, which is this topic about the commoditization of development work, right? In the future, it's picking the developer, or a developer, sorry, the same as picking your Airbnb host or picking which restaurant you'll visit in Belgrade this week. I mean, I know myself, I'll open my phone and I'll see 10 restaurants that are close by and I'll take the one with the highest rating. And that's, I mean, it's extremely lazy, but that's what I do. And a lot of people buy like that. So platforms like these are natural evolutions of our industry. It's normal that development work will face increased price competition as the market matures and as the product becomes more stable. And when, so we've talked about plugins, we've talked about themes, we've talked about the sort of job marketplace, so development work. Hosting is another big topic inside WordPress. I mean, just looking outside in terms of who the sponsors are, we can see that that is where a lot of the revenue is. And part of the reason I think that WordPress has lost some of this consumer facing appeal is because we don't have enough consumer first or business first WordPress platforms in the ecosystem. Many of these existing WordPress platforms are just hosting companies, right? Strong onboarding, strong UX, an extremely well curated marketplace of third party plugins for core businesses and marketing needs. These are the opportunities. If you want to reach customers directly, one click install and access to a C panel dashboard, it's not good enough anymore, right? You have to provide a fully integrated solution. And most of us aren't building platforms, but are affected by them in some way, even in WordPress, be it plugin theme developers, agencies, freelancers, or any of us others. The theoretical answer to safeguarding ourselves against these layers that own a lot of the business is to own the customer relationship, but that's not necessarily the easiest thing to do anymore, especially as WordPress is also getting pushed deeper in the stack. And the conversations that happen at the very beginning happen somewhere else. So in practice, it's again a different story. We have to settle for the next best option, which is diversification. Not attaching your inbound business or sales or however you generate revenue to a single platform, be it a theme marketplace, plugin marketplace, WordPress job marketplace, or any other kind of platform. We have to diversify and find different ways to earn revenue. The opportunity here for us is to learn how to market, sell, and talk about WordPress in a manner which speaks to the business value. The third and final point I want to talk about are digital experience platforms, or DXP. If you haven't seen it yet, it's being pitched as this sort of next step or evolution of CMS, mostly a marketing activity so far. The theory is that by using one of these platforms, you can reach all your customers across different mediums, devices, whilst also doing so in a highly personalized manner. In other words, content is tailored to the user's profile, habits, behavior. One of the key marketing points of DXPs is also that it's not web-centric, right? So in most marketing material, that's visualized with smartwatches, voice hardware like Alexa, digital signage, and more. The CMS, however, remains a big part of DXP, but it isn't necessarily the driver, right? It depends on the vendor, but the sort of wording that is taking center stage here is AI-powered, intelligent, multi-channel, personalized experiences at scale. I can't even make these things up. In the above slide, the company is Acquia, and many of you know this company as the enterprise vendor of Drupal, and they've been very successful. For a long time, it's just been a CMS, and that's been the marketing, but now it's sort of shifting to this digital experience and trying to own the entire digital strategy of various companies. This is Cycor, another prominent enterprise CMS, but you also see this digital experience language coming in. I'm personally still trying to figure out if DXP is a marketing play to try and displace CMSs. I'm seeing a lot of big talk, but the case studies and detailed implementations are somewhat lacking. I can see how large retailers have built their own custom solutions, let's say like Walmart or Target, which are able to provide very high degrees of personalization, but I don't see how a DXP will plug and play into your business if you haven't been doing these kind of activities before. It requires a lot of prior business intelligence. However, I do believe that DXP will succeed in its marketing message. It is being marketed very well after all, and that enterprise will start spending some money on it. And I like the above landing page because it's telling us what DXP is today without kind of realizing it. You'll see in the bottom left this says content management combined with deep customer insight. To me, that means CMS plus AB testing at the very lowest, and at the highest, it's something that's very abstract, which might just all be marketing. Regardless, it affects us. DXP is a concept that's specific to enterprise today, which not everyone in this room works with, but the underlying motivation here is for solutions to become smart and intelligent. Instead of using if-and-else statements, we're going to start using large sets of data to predict what the user wants or more directly how to increase engagement, conversion, and overall business value. If we tied us back to my first point about how plugins are losing value, in many cases, this is because these SaaS solutions are also becoming more intelligent. They're also utilizing large pools of data to make smarter decisions in an automated manner. I see this as an opportunity within WordPress and one that I hope we will see a lot more innovation in 2019. The idea of creating microservices or tools embedded inside of WordPress to help create a more intelligent CMS. You see decoupled and head-to-less WordPress projects are quite popular these days and we do a fair few of them at Human Made. But in terms of vision for WordPress, the software itself, I don't see the visual or presentation layer as a big priority. That feels like it's someone else's specialization or responsibility. Instead, I think we have to focus our attention on automation, machine learning, and more predictive workflows for the end user, especially in WP Admin. If there's a specialist tool for every business need inside a tech stack, then WordPress specialization is content. Ingesting, creating, editing, analyzing, manipulating, enhancing, distributing content. And that's where I feel our attention should be in helping creating a smarter WordPress. Yesterday, when Matt was asked about what is his favorite feature of Gutenberg, he talked about the copy-paste feature. I think that's a smart solution because another way to have done that would be to say, okay, there's an import button, you press on the import button, you paste your text inside, and then you say, okay, what format am I importing from? So maybe you select that from a dropdown, and then you click import and it pulls it in. Instead, the system automatically tries to detect which format you're using and then adapt it and import into Gutenberg by itself. That's a smart solution, it saves people time, it creates value. At Human Made, we've also been playing around quite a lot with images and media. This is an example of us using the recognition API from AWS to automatically tag images inside of WordPress. So if there's a large amount of images inside of WordPress, this is quite useful, all the way from editorial to SEO use cases. And the third example I have is from Amado Vice, who does do quite a lot of work in this. I'm not sure what's more impressive is if it's the actual smart feature he's created in terms of spelling correction or his actual facial expressions in the bottom left once they start kicking off, what you will see in a moment. So now he's typing some text, he's very surprised. He's thinking about it. And then maybe he'll accept that and he changes that. This is quite smart. And that's a small thing. There's a lot of ways that can grow. So if you're a plug-in developer that's feeling the pressure of SaaS solutions competing with you, then this is where you need to go. If you're a hosting company who's offering a WordPress-first solution in terms of marketing and you want to improve your platform, this is where you need to go. And if you're already working on these kind of things, then talk to me because I'd love to hear about it. We already have a lot of initiatives that you've been made and I'd love to see what you're working on. Coming back to that initial question last month when that company asked me if WordPress is the best solution, let me tell you what I told them and what you should be telling your clients. WordPress is the best solution. Everything I talked about today are opportunities. They're good problems to have and we're in that situation because we've built great solutions and we have an even greater community. Measuring WordPress growth through market share is a distraction. The real growth opportunity is in being able to drive WordPress up the value chain. It's about creating a smarter WordPress. It's about interoperability and having WordPress play nice with the ecosystem at large. And it's also about value perception and how you market, sell, and talk about solutions using WordPress. How WordPress will grow in the next year will be nothing like the previous years. We need to adapt and take risks. We have to innovate and then we have to do it all over again. That is the future of WordPress. Thank you. Thank you very much, Noel. We do, in fact, have time for Q&A. So let's bring them in. The way that we've got them arrayed here today is we do have a couple of mic runners around. So if you really need a mic runner, do take a wave. There's a few mics at the back and we've got the stands here, just while people are sort of cogitating and thinking those through at the moment. You pointed to Ahmed's work and things. Are there other people, other conversations? Because you're not the only person thinking about this by a long way. One of the best, definitely. But are there other places where this conversation happens? Where you, like Ahmad and other people who you've noticed lately have really got good visions for different directions. Perhaps we've got our point of view, because we're in human-made and other people are in different segments as well. It's not about, it's less about point of view and I think it's more about perception in that people may feel limited to trying and solving things through WordPress or through the old WordPress ways, through PHP and things like that. But the opportunities are in front of you. You have clients that may benefit from needs like this. There's someone like Ahmad sees that in a new project and says, I can do this. So it's more about your own personal vision and sort of breaking through barriers to be able to see what kind of innovation we can really drive beyond a more linear CMS. Yeah, okay, I appreciate that. Do we have a question there from, oh yes, yes sir. I know, this is Bo. Thank you so much, great presentation. I have a question about the digital experience stuff which is something I've seen quite a bit, like especially in the enterprise. I was just wondering, do you think the potential clients or customers who are below enterprise, you know, like spending maybe, if you talk about hosting or product like 50 bucks a month or 100. Are they there yet, like to get that message? Do you think they're susceptible for that specific marketing spiel or is it just, you know? I think so, no, I don't get that question. I think so because to me DXP is a marketing exercise. Like I said, I haven't seen mind blowing implementations. There's a lot of A, B testing and there's a lot of, if customer bought product A then showed them product A again. There's, you know, maybe payment providers like Clarna or others, you know, large platform players have a deeper vision of these things. But like I said, it's not a plug and play thing. I think there's an opportunity for companies that are completely integrated like Shopify to be able to do things like that and to be able to just automatically do those as part of their USP and as part of their sort of value proposition towards prospective consumers. But I do feel it's gonna be a good chunk harder for people who wanna do custom implementations. But for right now, I feel like it's mostly a marketing exercise until I see otherwise. Thank you. Pleasure. Thank you very much. Another question from Odessa? Yes, please. Hi, thanks for the presentation. It was great. So going back to your graph before where simple versus complex sites, where do you think the biggest area of growth is for WordPress going forward? I'm biased, you know, so I work in the enterprise. So I think medium-sized businesses to enterprise is where it's at. I think there's a lot of consumer-facing solutions at the bottom end, which are, it's not even so much about there's a website builder for businesses at large. There's a website builder for restaurants. There's one for doctors. There's one for lawyers. There's massive saturation at that point. And I guess also from a price perspective, there will be increased pressure. So if you wanna be able to continue to drive customized solutions, I guess you have to try and market yourself towards that midfield or that upper end, because. And how do you do that? Do you market your tool towards the developers that are building those sites, or do you market it towards the enterprises themselves? Is this in regards to your plugin specifically? No, just yours. Well, I think for an agency, a lot of that is just whatever has worked for you before, but scaled up in a much more, I'd say, aggressive manner, a much more outbound manner where you're trying and you're experimenting a lot more. Different markets react to different approaches. But if you try small things, lots of different small things to see what works and what sticks, I mean, that's the lean startup, right? It's going down that road. But otherwise, I'm sure there's channels, right? Like platform channels and all that. So there's G2 crowd, there's clutch, there's various review platforms for agencies. But again, you have a tie-in to platform sense. That sort of diversity you'll have to seek out for yourself. And if you're in any way possible, or you have the possibility to find your own independent channels, go for it. Thank you. Pleasure. I think we have another question there. Yes, please. Yeah, hi, thank you. Just wanted to tell us about something about the security in the future of WordPress, so... Oh, I'm the wrong guy. You're the wrong guy. I'm the very wrong guy, yeah. Okay. I'm on the marketing side. I make everybody feel great about stuff. I don't want to worry people about security. But there's definitely, I don't know, it seems like there's a lot of blog posts around it. There's a lot of documentation and a lot of activity, I'd say. But it seems like everything's nice and secure, seeing as WordPress powers 31% of the web. Okay, okay, thank you. No worries. There is a part of the marketing message, isn't it, when we go and talk to clients. And it has been, I think at the moment... Nope. We try not to. Okay. No, no, no, I'll say one comment to that and it's that I try not to use it because I feel like it's an easy way out in meetings. So if you're not able to talk about what you bring as a solution and the value you bring to the solution and you actually have to fall back to talking about a tool's statistics, then you just have to re-evaluate your business. Kasper? I think that's the gentleman was first. Hi, thanks. Sorry. I just wanted to ask an advanced customer question. Like, you know, in all small, medium businesses, the solutions are vast and you can try for your own and look what WordPress fits you. But when you go up to the enterprise businesses, they're all comparing not to WordPress. They just look if the solution is right for them. It doesn't, it doesn't matter at the cost. It just look concentrate on the solution. So when you're coming to a customer that big, you must have a vast value, something to offer more than it's WordPress and it's good that it will fit you. So what are your ways to market? That's a great question. I think part of the challenge with DXP, and obviously DXP is great from a marketing perspective because it speaks to that, right? It's like, we are your digital strategy. Take all our products and implement it, right? We also were the best. Yeah, yeah, exactly. But the thing is there's a lot of best in class solutions out there. I think WordPress as a CMS is best in class when it comes to managing content. And there's a lot of other tools that are out there that work equally well. And from a DXP perspective, sure, you can combine different tools. You can combine WordPress. You can combine A.B. testing analytics, various marketing tools and everything together to create a best in class, I guess, bundle because that's what the DXP does. The challenge is in marketing that and being able to go to the customer with a concise offering in that regard. Not to show them fragments, but to show them one. And that's our challenge, I think. That's something I'm learning too right now. For my market is mostly concentrating on the open source, open code benefits. Like it's adjustable, you can move all the other benefits, but... And Acquia is like that. When you're going to a real value, I can't shine in a way. Like I know what I can do. I know what I can offer. But in a WordPress equivalent platform, it's not that simple to explain. No. For enterprises. And that's something we have to learn. How do you bring that constellation of different tools under a single banner and a single offering to C-level executives who are trying to understand your value proposition in two lines? So I'm learning it too. Thanks. Pleasure. Yes, of course. Okay, yeah. Thanks, Noel, for the presentation. I still marvel at the timing that we heard the M stock before and how to move all this forward. And then you come and say we hit peak WordPress. I thought that was amazing. I'm sorry. No, that's good. So you said you're coming from the enterprise side of obviously I've been in touch with the consumer base a lot through customer support. So I'm wondering, do you have any message for the micro agency, the freelancer who caters to the do-it-yourself side owner? Basically, it's not enterprise level, but it's let's say smaller level in terms of revenue. And I can imagine that person would be very worried to hear like we hit peak WordPress. Do you have any message for them? Yeah, no, of course. So there's two things. One, I'd like to preface that with a story, a very short one when I was talking to Boe yesterday. And he's building a platform, the CF platform that he's been building. And he's getting a lot of feedback that it's just not as responsive and doesn't have all the notifications and all these things that modern web apps do. So there's a lot of pressure to deliver even the smallest of micro interactions to try and match what the largest platforms are doing. So there's a lot of baseline works that needs to be done even on the front end to even provide something that feels and looks like it has the same sort of authority and command as other solutions out there. So there's a continual catch-up. On the second side, to answer your question, I think it's the role specialization. Are you a marketer and you just weren't a developer before because you're assembling websites? Are you actually just a really good developer and you're not supposed to be in this whole like marketing business side of things? Are you a product manager? Are you able to pull together all these different solutions and put a strategy together to measure KPIs and conversion and engagement? You need to decide kind of what you want to become. For us at HumanMade, we're always trying to push forward. Sure, we're an agency, but we do so much more because we're curious and we have to be to be able to keep up with the web. That's just, it's almost a given. It's the sort of, and maybe it's like this sort of feeling of entitlement, I guess, to stay in this sort of static space. Like, oh, this is how I build websites. I'm gonna do this for the next 10 years. No, like it's just never been like that. We've had a very nice, you know, we've enjoyed a lot like I said before, it felt like a superpower having WordPress and all these plugins like seven, eight years ago, but times are changing. We have to adapt. Thank you. I'm gonna try and squeeze in just one more. Boss? Well, we have to have boss. Okay. Another short question about world domination. A lot of the future of WordPress seems to be branded in the Gutenberg project. My question for you as a marketing guy, what do you think about the Gutenberg brand? And second question in 2025, will we be at a Gutenberg camp or a WordPress camp? Yeah, you're killing me. 2025. Shit. I think Gutenberg is exactly what we need right now. You know, when I talked about, you know, get ingesting content, creating content, editing content, manipulating content, that's all a great framework to do that in. So even like that smarter WordPress stuff will hook in really, really nicely into that. I don't know if we'll be at a Gutenberg camp in 2025. My hope is obviously that for WordPress we keep focusing on content and are able to do an amazing job at that. Maybe, I mean, maybe we'll be at an AI camp or a machine learning camp or something else at that point. Maybe, you know, the code base or the amount of code that creates value inside of WordPress or rather business value exceeds the actual foundation. Maybe there's a significantly larger ecosystem around that then, I don't know. But either way, whatever it is, it's gonna have to match the business value that other tools are putting out today. Thanks. Pleasure. Okay. Well, I think you've finished it off the morning beautifully. Thank you very much, not far. Thank you. Thank you very much, Milky Way.