 available to everyone. Okay, thank you. So it's my great pleasure to introduce Lisa Lane who's going to give us an introduction about the course that she helped develop and again as I said it's a future-learn MOOC that was developed by the Creative Computing Institute here at UAL. So what I'm going to do now is and the link to the course is up there as well and we'll put that link into the chat room as well so that everybody can access the details of the course. What I'm going to do now is just change the slides. I'm going to go over to Lisa's slides and you should just come up in a second or two. So okay Lisa, hopefully you can see that. You see that? Okay, really? Okay, I don't know whether I'm pressing the right button. I don't know if anybody else can see. Can they see the slides? Yes, we can see them. You can see them. Okay, cool. I can't see them. Don't worry, right. Don't worry. I have I've got two screens. I will reference my screen if I can get the words out. I'll reference my screen and so I know what I'm actually looking at but yeah cool. Okay, so I've got the slides up here. So Lisa you probably just need to say to me I'll move to the next slide. Yeah, so you can move to the who I am and I'll just give a brief overview of who I am. Just to give you some context, I'm not going to get a lot of detail but just so that people understand my background and why I got involved in doing this course. So I start coding I was 10 and I know I've put still coding. No, I don't really still code although I can. I've got a computer science degree and I've got a master's in business and it takes which is great. I started off as being would have been a program people called every developers now everyone's called engineers for some reason so for engineering and I now moved into what as a people manager that's my focus. I've had opportunities to be involved in I was like social enterprises so I was the founder director of a credit union in the further I live in. I now just volunteered with an organization called Anita be the org and the reason why I'm emphasizing more on my volunteering aspect is that for me as a person that works in tech I went down a traditional path but I will say to people that I mentor and coaches that learning to code is learned behavior and I've just been fortunate and that I was able to do a degree in computer science and I've been able to do a master's but you don't have to do that and all of that can go out the window it's nice it was for me I just didn't want to work that's why I did it and then final touch about myself I love Caribbean carnivals and I've been fortunate to go to different ones around the world so it kind of bridges my importance for me about belonging and having different people having different perspectives and not everybody has to look like me that enjoys carnival right so you can move to the next slide so thank you so in terms of the organization that was part of building this is coded black females and they have been around I think since 2017 I believe yeah six 2017 and I'm one of them their members I don't sit on their board or anything but I'm one of their members and the reason why I decided to be involved with them is that it's great that you've got black women get into tech you might have skipped a slide is it can you see the code in black you don't have to worry about reading this I'm not going to go I'm I am not going to read the mission statement or the aim of just to give you some context of the organization and basically they've done a lot to I would say get women into tech very much from the entry level and for me I'm not entry level I'm not even at that early mid-level because I people manage and so forth yes yes and so for me it's just giving you a bit of understanding of why they got involved with it because a lot of people are getting more into tech but you need to understand about the the concepts of knowing how to create tech that doesn't have biases in it and you do get tech that has embedded into it I would say racist kind of stereotypes which everybody will know about the common one I think if we go back the iPhone you couldn't it it didn't work with certain people's faces so that is something you need to address in regards to it you can go to the next slide so as I said I was one of the the contributors to this and on here you can see some of the the other women and we all we've all got different backgrounds so Charlene is the founder of and the CEO of the coded black females you've got Jean who again is a member of the coded black females but she's involved in another social enterprise as well that focus on women you've got Abaditha who is also quite well known in this area about helping individuals kind of level up but then also she's known for the techish podcast and she's written a book as well and there's also I never get her name right I'm going to be honest with you if you I think I'm sure it's wrong so I really apologize if she watches this because I'm terrible with people's names as well even though people get mine wrong but anyway yeah so we're all different individuals and we all contributed in different aspects and the course will go through a series of learnings in terms of the how the what the why the when scenario and I'm just going to give you a brief overview of the course if you go to the next slide thank you so in in the the course if you're not familiar with it's actually split in over three weeks and the first week gives you an introduction into talking about what is racism and looking at racism in terms of you know the cement in terms of how it can impact your everyday life what are the types of you know issues that you can face with technology how it has been kind of impacted through I would say social nuances and economic those kind of aspects but it's really giving you the opportunity to to delve into that one of the things and the reason why this course was done is that a lot of things that talks that talk about I say anti-racism within technology tend to come out of the US and we've got different issues we've got similar issues but we've got different issues here in the UK and it was more to do with a broader spectrum of identifying yes there's elements that impact what happened in the US but trying to focus in on you know how systemic racism impacts technology here has been the main source and so the way that it goes through you have some articles there's a series of videos with discussions about you know the different aspects and then there's some I would say quick exercises to do and then you get reflection so that's setting you up to get an understanding of why you need to have these conversations the second week looks at you know give me some examples of anti-racist technology and right give me some examples of you know anti-racist technology how you know how are organizations tackling this you know how do how do individuals you know impact the building how do you as an individual think about you know what can I do to make sure that this doesn't happen in the things I'm working on and doing this this series of you know sessions that are within week two there's some examples that give you an overview of things that do work and there's and there is an app in there that we did find and I do know some of the feedback people have said it's not really what it was just to give you an example of ways that you can get a better understanding of things that could be used for good and like it kind of aligns to tech the good scenarios where people are developing things that are positive for society and then that actually leads into the how how do you actually do this how do you set up your teams how do you understand about diversity it's not the answer to building technology for everyone it's not the answer just to say oh we've got a diverse team no you have a team that has that incorporates inclusion incorporates equity so equity in itself can be loosely banded around I definitely believe and it's about understanding that you need to incorporate in that environment and understanding how data can be used in order to make sure that we've got an even spread of individuals that represent society as a whole understand that the most common I think the most common issues that we've seen in terms of the technology is that how AI can be used incorrectly especially like when they're building AI things that have facial images in there which have been proven and Google was renowned for that that it wasn't recognizing Pacific individuals and grouping them wrongly and what you will follow in week three is an outline of a suggestion of how you can ensure that when you're part of that product development cycle how it should flow best practice because there's always there's never a right way there's never a wrong way but there's guidance on how you should ensure that anything to build represent society that we exist in and it's not just it's not just aimed at one group it should be everybody should use it so that's you know the general overview of the course and I know I've gone through it really quickly but I think it's it's good to kind of have that genuine overview rather than going through in detail exactly what is covered in each area yeah thank you Lisa um right okay so um the rest of the session really is just for a Q&A really so um there's a number of things that have jumped into my mind already um I've already I did the course when it first came out um and it's freely available isn't it I think it's for three weeks which is great um so um anybody can can and we put the uh anybody can join the course and link up and go into it so um that's a nice thing about it again I found it just off the top of my head and I found it what I liked about it was just the amount of practical examples that it gave um of anti-racism activity um in the tech industry so there are lots of good things in there for me um I've got some other questions which I'll maybe wait for a second or two um but I want to turn it over to the audience now so um if you either you can either put your hand up if you want to speak or come into the session which would be really nice or alternatively um you can put a question into the chat room um so I don't think we've got any hands coming up at the moment in time but yeah so one thing I will say is that um I think one of the drivers I don't fully know but I think one of the drivers for developing this course was the fact that um the what happened in the US around you know the Black Lives Matter movement and having the conversations that people don't like to talk about people don't like to talk about race let's be honest as in um I don't really like to say race because we're all part of the human race ethnicity background and in the US it's a completely different makeup and you know as I kind of pointed out you know I do the volunteering the organization um is very American centric and what you tend to find is that um a lot of things are focused on America but it does impact us but we've got we've got similar issues but our issues are are slightly different as well in the US to the you know to the UK it's not the same as if you go to mainland Europe and one of the things that you do find is that when we talk about racism in in in the UK it's seen it's more than likely brushed over and technologies get fixed first in the US and then it gets fixed secondly over here okay yeah right and to to remain do you want to come in you got your hand up yeah I was just waiting to see if there is any question there's a comment from Sarah about how future learn itself being a platform where when you enroll that's when your free weeks start for your free sessions but then I did comment because um not just in terms of race but when you look at people who have caring duties or people who have disabilities and may not be able to take the course immediately that in itself is a bit discriminatory but I've got some questions I'm just going to start maybe while the audience come up with some other questions um obviously we we know that in the tech industry there's like about I think 1.9 people black people in the tech industry and out of these it's only 0.7% I'll put this actually also in the chat so people are very much aware of this and obviously software project management and development is very cyclical and I don't see where this 1.9% would fit at any point in time throughout all the cycles because obviously you've got new requirements I mean I've been a new cycle so your thoughts now how will resolve this exactly and that's the thing is is that and that's why I why made the emphasis that most things get done in America first and it comes here secondly let's be honest right and I shared in the chat right a link to a series of conversations we had and I was the I was the person representing outside of the US and the in the US it's they record ethnicity over here we don't really record ethnicity so I even with those figures I do question the figures anyway number one secondly in terms of like right most um when we talk about a lot of the technology that are used out there right um this will only work and I'll be honest with this flawed right it will only work if you are one of the tech companies let's be honest in that they're what you've got a lot of teams you've got a lot of individuals so because and they've got products that more of the mainstream people will use so they will have to incorporate um building in um solutions and making sure that they there's no biases but even with that it's still questionable because we still have to keep having these conversations every year about if you Google something certain things come up it's not it's not foolproof but I think especially when you have organizations and they talk about in getting people to come into working to environments if the teams right and that's why I hate the term when they talk about being diverse inclusive equity and and so forth when you actually look at the teams they just you might say oh well we're diverse what does it mean you basically got two of the same ethnic backgrounds right and it doesn't it's not necessarily just why it comes in a variety of different ethnic backgrounds where you've got the same individuals but it's a male and a female whereas what about the non-binary people what about you know people that have got you know different disabilities it's it's impacting all of that and having the conversations normally have to start with about the racism that exists and racism doesn't to me doesn't just necessarily mean it's based on your ethnic background it can be based on your gender it can be based on you know you might have some form of disability or whatever and organizations have to address this and it is difficult you there's no there is no as I said there's no there's no there is no right or wrong answer to this but having the conversations and making people aware of you know what you can question this why is there nobody that represents that individual if we're going to roll this out to the general public it's not it's it's it's easier said than done I'm going to be honest with you if you're early on in your career most people are going to are going to just sit there and say nothing and it's like having the organizations that can support you yeah thank you Lisa I've got another question which I think will follow on from Laurie unless Chris do you have something else no it's just going to bring you in on that okay yeah so exactly what you've just said Lisa I mean some of the antiracist measures that we see are usually like using simplistic language and you've hit it when you say about how us bring in solution way faster and how they react to problems whereas the UK we kind of soften and lessen the issues and we tend to use simple language and we also say diversify the team which is again the issue that you've just said um which is actually may not be necessarily the working solution to the problem and there are also I've noticed that there are so many black people who are who are happy with how things yeah are because they don't want to raise issues and they don't want to be the first one exactly to raise issues and it doesn't mean that they are not that they are fully satisfied with how things are that they are not seeing that there is some unfairness but most of the time they don't want to be different by raising issues and there is obviously the fact that most black people also somehow expect to see some form of reaffirmation of their competence which goes a bit onto Laurie's question now how do you think we as leaders can empower the young like I know there are programs about is temple girls there's so many other programs just for girls but for boys as well and young young you know young the kids at school and doing A-level and all how do you think we can empower them to come into this industry when we are actually saying you know there's only like only 0.7% of women who look like you in the industry they will be obviously saying no no I don't want to be there exactly and you know the thing is it's really interesting because the thing I've worked in this industry for over 20 something plus years and I'm a lot older than I look right so just to give you context I'm actually my 50s which most people don't realize I've worked in this industry for a long time and I can say that somebody put what yes I am right right so and a lot of people don't that's why for me it's like I know that I know that it's not an easy it's not an easy task and I took the I took the I made the choice that I need to stand up and say look you know what I've worked in a long time no I know I don't know my age but no believe me I know I am this age group number one secondly it's like making people know that no it wasn't easy but if we don't stick at it right you need to have role models you need to have that and yes I will speak up you know I face racism at work it's been quite subtle you know for me Lane is my married name but Rhyme4 my maiden name is R E I N F O R and like I remember when I was going to school and then I first got my job and it was like but when I first started looking for work people were like is that really your name you get that kind of sideways head glance scenario and it's like it's like you you end up in a situation that is either you you stay or you leave and I would never tell somebody it was easy to stay in this profession it hasn't been easy right you know it took me almost 10 years to get to a lead position when I start working in tech right you were lucky there was women there you were lucky if there was a person of color forget you were lucky it was a person that looked like you and you know I I I used to get oh so what department do you work in oh do you work in finance no I work in tech really and it's those kinds of things and it's not easy and that's why it's about being present and I hate saying underrepresented I have to say untapped because we have the potential we're not underrepresented because we are here people choose to ignore that we are here and by having these conversations by making people see different role models and when I say different role models I'm not just talking specifically like somebody looks like me different role models that work in tech seeing different avenues and pathways into tech not everybody has to follow the a traditional path of doing a degree you don't have to do that again to tech not everybody has to code understanding it's about having the opportunities out there and encouraging people to stay there because it's much easier to get people in there but it's much harder to get people to stay in these positions okay um just before um I take your hand uh take you take let you come back to me when they um Laurie's put a question into the chat um sorry Laurie I'm the hundred percent understand your question but let me read it out so I was going to say Chris we've used we're using a company called an organization called Ten Thousand Black Interns next year um to place interns and obviously we're a we're a tech organization I'm just wondering if anybody else has worked with them and if Lisa's worked with them and you know what you know what the experience is like okay I've never worked with them but I do know of them and one of the things I question is because like as I mentioned I'm I'm a I do the London chapter this organization and um everything talks about entry level what about the women that already working in tech right right so essentially most people are working in tech but what what about them what's what's the opportunities for you get all these young people but I can tell you now and that's one of the reasons why I I do turn I do turn up to some of these events especially like the coding black females because if you look at their manifesto it's about entry level okay that's great but what you tend to find and this is general for women regardless of your your ethnic background after five years where are those women that's that's my only issue with there's a lot of these programs they help them do the internships but then what happens to them because if these things were really working we wouldn't be saying oh well there's only 1.7 women working in tech or whatever it is right and it's regardless of being black or you know or brown folks where what what happens to them after they do the internships do they actually stay in the tech roles what we tend to find most of them um to first survive out of those roles and they go sideways into other things because they feel that they hit this um that glass ceiling even at that entry level that that that's my only question with that sorry no that's that's great I I totally agree and in I mean I work for an organization that as most people here will know is primarily white and primarily male and I mean we've now got a female CEO but it's still like that and it's really hard I don't know so I've got graduates working with me now that are primarily black or brown and it's great but I still notice that they don't speak as much as white males I still notice that they perhaps aren't called upon as much as white males and and I struggle to make space and I struggle to um find a way to actually boost confidence and to and to do it but I also struggle to do it in a way that's not condescending or patronizing and I just need support in that yeah and and I think one that I think one of the things that that I've learned with um so you'll get so the percentage what you see that are the confident ones they're the ones that you they shine upon let's be honest but the ones that are reserved and like you know I really want to do it but I'm trying to talk right you don't hear about them they'll start and then they disappear and they're going to do something else because they can't they feel that they're not getting the same opportunity is the ones that will will speak up and the only way that I've um the way that I've seen how it can be kind of tackled and from that aspect is where some of the organizations that deal with the younger people they've tried to do less formal programs to get people to kind of um integrate and come out of the shells rather than being so formal um that that's the only that's one of the approaches but there is no right or wrong way and it's very difficult I do know that I really I do agree with you um a lot of the organizations um are focused on that and because we've got a skills issue with for technology companies and it's great you're getting people to get into these positions but what's going to happen to them after three or four years okay um to to ruminate you've still got your hand up is is that a legacy hand or do you just want to come back on that um no I've just got um some of them more like probing questions really um a bit of very much what you've said already um Lisa I mean do you live in a capitalist society which I don't think is equitable at all and um what do you think we as leaders um and even through um black coding um organization and it's have been things like this that we can do to influence political leaders to pass some laws that will make the tech industry more equitable however I must say um I must admit that uh I don't think that all the laws uh work properly they are not really deterrent to everywhere to for all people you'll still have people who are narcissists or who are racists or who are money-minded that they will still keep doing that you know laws doesn't mean uh do not mean anything for them and now I know we've got on this call lots of learning technologists who obviously are working in an educational background um do you have thoughts on how we can influence um you know sometimes we we kind of think oh the problem is the government the problem of racism the problem of any discrimination is for somebody else to resolve yeah like creating laws or something like that but then do you have ideas how we like I'm sure we've got people probably at different levels here I know we've got academics we've got learning texts of varied number of years of experience do you have any any idea what you think we could be doing obviously translating from your very much industry uh experience it's really interesting sorry to cut you there it's really interesting somebody put in there like she's they wrote I like this is why I like um the networks like the piloties are like do you know what it is about networks and having belonging to different groups but at the same time it's about having communication and making it visible that's really important um I I do believe that we need to capture metrics about what's going on in organizations um it's not so much um it's no I don't think it should be I don't think it should be focused on oh well the I'm going to join this organization let them speak to me no it should be everybody should have the opportunities to speak up if they feel comfortable doing that I when I say comfortable doing that it's a different matter where I'm used to doing public speaking I'm quite happy to talk about this but not everybody is and it's like I know I've got my own biases as well so you know there's elements of where I've got privilege and I accept that but there's elements that other people got privileges above me but it's having these conversations and making it known and I think as leaders and um in the US it's much easier for them to lobby for these things because these those organizations especially the one that I volunteer with it's been around for a long time so they have those legal kind of um tie-ins they know about how legislation because over in the US they have to record ethnicity they cannot they cannot record just the gender they cannot just record um you know the number of women but even with that that's still I think a lot of the biases you find and not just um in terms of racist biases you find in startups and they don't have to record how many people work in their companies in terms of ethnic backgrounds if it's less than 200 people and so it's all those kinds of aspects I think and there's a lot of you know there's a lot of good organizations that are out there that are trying to do that and I don't even know if the tech talent charter have you heard of them I can put it in the chat right so um so yeah so um they they try to get the statistics of what um organizations sign up and they agree to give them data um it's been around for a long time and I would say you should try and connect with her if you want I can I can you know offline I can try I'm connected to her it it is in it is important to have people that are willing to stand up for you as well I think that's really important and definitely through networks I belong to a lot of different networks and you know you are um stronger if you got other people to help support you that's an important point really I mean that's really what this whole thing's about really is connecting people up across different universities I saw somebody wrote something sorry I just just I saw somebody wrote something I just want to just point um touch on it about Black History Month I'll be honest with you I hate Black History Month um I don't when I say hate I don't mean I hate in a horrible way but I'm not I don't actually um do anything for Black History Month because it's like why am I celebrating just one month of the year I'm black all the year round so for me I don't I don't do that um it's nice they highlight um individuals but it what it you know you can't change your ethnicity just for one month and it goes with a lot of other things it's like pride it's about okay we're gonna have this month to celebrate this no you if you know if you fall into that category it's gonna happen throughout the rest of the year and it is about communication and people feeling it's okay but this is the norm this is not something that isn't the norm that you feel that you have to just that's my opinion but some people may not worry sorry um I'm not sure if everybody will agree but I'm not sure if everybody wants to speak about that or not um is I mean we've talked generally about technology but it's again from my own experience of working in universities for the last 30 years also is mainly within the learning technology area and again it was I'm I never saw a blackface when I was working in in this area 30 years ago it has changed um but I don't know to what extent it has really changed I really don't and I suppose it comes back to your point about there's no really recording of you know sort of the different ethnicities working in within this small little sector that we work in in higher education as far as I know especially within learning technology so I don't know whether there has been any substantial change but superficially I do see a more mixed teams and and certainly you know coming I don't want to say that my current institution is you know an example but you know they are doing seem to be doing more things here than many of the other places I've worked but I don't know it's very hard unless there's sort of you know a conscious decision to record things then it's all anecdotal already um anyway sorry those are my thoughts and yeah sorry no it's true though I do know that because I've spoken to people in academia and academia is has got a lot of issues in terms of not for just for women but for people of color there's hardly any people of color but uh the level of being professor um it's very difficult more than what I've been told to get to that and yeah there's definitely issues with that somebody's put it in there there's academic yeah there is um that it's not in just one area tech is more known because people know tech everyone's got some form of tech that's why and people know about oh oh well I've Apple and they know about Facebook and all of those but then when you look at these organizations most of the when you look at these organizations what are the roles of women doing anyway they they tend to be focused in the in the what people define has been the soft skills areas and and diversity initiatives are mostly driven from the US in the in the UK it's always seen through done through employee resource groups which you don't get paid for and then they actively especially like if you're known to do things right they will come to you and say oh come and join this employee resource group no you need to pay somebody to do that because it's a full-time job so it is an issue in a lot of industries and until we get to that point where we're actually recording what's going on we're never going to really understand or have a real visibility of there actually is a problem not so much at they talk about this pipeline it's not a pipeline of people getting into it as an issue a problem at the mid-level area and all across all industries not just tech in that what happens to women and what happens to people well not I would say for men it's slightly different for women of of any color they drop off right yeah right okay um is anybody else want to come in at this particular moment in time there's a few comments coming into the chat um there's a comment from Chris there is is this where invisible labour and code switching comes in when the system's careers especially in and around academia historically built on full white cis straight non-disabled men have assumed knowledge language not to mention other barriers and bigotry so we either dismantle that system knowledge language and or train others in how to navigate at all levels okay thanks for that comment Chris and everybody else wants to come back on that um I would agree to say that yeah I would agree because I'll be one of you right just to give you some different context about my background I went to catholic convent school and I went to school that predominantly why I'm not gonna lie and because it was a catholic school it was very much about education and I was lucky that we didn't have the stigma of there was boys in the class that we could do tech but you if you speak to a lot of people it's like they still have an issue that they don't do STEM because they think it's not focused on women and and I think one of the things that I was told individuals that if you get a job a role in the tech any form of tech it's one it's the one profession that you will always find a job you might not like the job that you want to do but you can always find a job okay um I'm getting conscious about time now so does anybody else would like to ask the question um another comment in there from south isn't some of the tech used by some hg institutions for enrollment bias as well e.g difficulty with students with non-traditional i.e non-english names if you want to come back on that Lisa um so yes definitely I mean obviously I've got a very um I've got I don't know I've got a very european westernized I won't say european I've got westernized first name and westernized surname and um yeah they definitely yeah I think as well some what you some tech um solutions only have a certain number of characters you can put in for your first name and not everybody's first name is spelled with maybe what six or eight characters you know depending on where you come from in the world it's like it could be quite long but that's that's you know the natural language and then people oh how do you spell that why is it so long can't you shorten it so there are biases and I'm sure yeah you're not I'm sure you've been also I can't really pronounce that can I call you something else right yeah and you know yeah yeah so there's there are biases and and it does come back to the fact that who built that who built that solution who built who built the solution for the students to fill their details in because most educational systems who they're not coming from the big tech companies are they no okay a couple more comments coming into the chat another one from lori assessment processes are biased during the pandemic we saw bay entertainment gap reduce significantly in some areas right okay so I'm just gonna say that I don't like the term bane because it just if you look at it in terms of how it what how it breaks down includes ethnic minorities that's what it says and those can be people that are gypsies they say gypsies I hate using that and Irish travellers and so forth and if somebody saw that person on the road outside on the street they are white so they wouldn't how would you know that so that that so I think it needs to be broken down to black and brown folks in order to understand that firstly but I do agree that I do agree that the assessment is can be biased especially when they have the ATS systems where they put in things that are are weighted against people especially women in these recruitment and the algorithms of the question comes back again to who built that and what you tend to find a lot of these solutions have been built in the US by a certain group and sometimes they're biased not just by they're not just biased by in terms of like it's biased towards black individuals they're biased towards women because it was written by a bunch of men that could be from I would say you know Asian backgrounds right in it based on what they think should it should be so yeah you definitely get that okay um yeah Laurie's followed that but by saying black male students close significantly towards Indian women and Indian women less so um in the attainment gap the fame is really interesting I could see myself with equity but also why yeah because it doesn't make any sense I don't think I think grouping everybody together makes no sense a lot of people I just don't like I don't like that I don't like that term I think it's it it kind of high it high it hides the real statistics in terms of what's going on in regards to somebody's ethnic background and there's different there's different variations in terms of ethnicity and to group a wide set of society under one bubble doesn't it it has no true reflection I believe that's my that's my thinking you might disagree but yeah okay all right um we still got time for just a couple more quick questions if anybody else wants to ask anything before we wrap up there's some interesting comments coming still coming into the chat if anybody wants to look at those as well and I still want to I know it's a related discussion but um does anybody else want to ask anything else can I Chris why in the chat I'll just read out some of the comments that were missed so Laurie mentioned about the unpaid labor that it expected of minority staff is usually problem problematic and then Samantha mentioned something that we still have systems that cannot handle apostrophes in usernames that's a problem all across all institution all organization industry or not um and there's also Sarah who mentioned about uh being under ethnic minority but then being wide um do you want to read the other comments or um you want me to go yeah just yeah yeah yeah I'm just reading them because we're recording and people who've missed them would be able to benefit from that so Laurie mentioned about travel apothecation in higher ed is the smallest of any population in the UK and Samantha mentioned that there are some gratis says in the good immigrant where Chinese population is not even recorded does not even have a category um and Stella commented she doesn't like the term of measurement she likes grouping for solidarity but agrees that BAME hides the true stats when you just disaggregate awarding gap stats you see the real issues exactly Stella um Laurie further commented that incidence of racism toward travelers is really viewed as racism by for example the police um some very good comments there that um I hope we take back to our work um anything else okay um we've just got a couple of slides of some future SIG events that I want to go through before we finish up but um I'll stop recording first Chris is that all right sorry I'll stop the recording now uh well hang on just um I just wondered if Lisa wanted Lisa did you want to sort of come back on anything no no I think it's really good what people are it's I think it's really good to have conversations off the set you know off the back of just thinking about that course but there's other things that I know that it's limited but there's other sources that should now allow people to go and do investigations that it's on their own and I think this is why it was um it's important to know that you can do that course but this is something that is an issue across different industries and you know you can google is can be your best friend I will say in order to go and look for different sources but it's really thank you for inviting me it was really interesting and we'll definitely connect and you know if people want to find out other stuff you know there's a a wealth of information out there and different organizations as well to to to connect with um definitely say so thank you Lisa yeah no thank you very much for you know giving up your time um to do this little talk for us and take all the questions and really really do appreciate it thank you um okay so just to finish up on um just going to stop recording now all right yeah thank you