 Good afternoon and welcome to this presentation, Broking APIs and UPI perspective from a brokerage industry. So, all of you would have heard the perspectives from wallets and banks and policy makers, but this is a completely different industry, even if it lies inside fintech before I get started. How many of you here trade and invest if you can just raise hands, okay. And how many of you think that trading is a bit like gambling, just it is fine too, okay fair enough. So, if think of how India thinks of all the regulations in banking, think of how India thinks about gambling and then add them together and we are now right now under all the regulations possible. But moving on, I am from Zhevada, I do not think many would have known about us, but we are a stockbroking online company which is a discount stockbroker, we offer flat brokerages no matter what kind of trade you do and one of the things that we have brought about in stockbroking industry in India is we have democratized trading. We have given out APIs to anyone and everyone who wants to build their trading terminals by us. So, it is like a good thing when the banks decided to go that way by UPI because that is also democratizing payments, right? We have powered startups like Small Case and Balance by using KiteConnect which is our API platform. Now, we are the Patanjali of Fintech, to give you an example, you go to a place and you have Retania Biscuits and Patanjali Biscuits, right? You all know that Patanjali is good enough, good for you, there is nothing, no problem with it. Back of your head there is like, maybe there is something shady in it, right? I think it needs some more regulation, some more tests before I eat that, but you know it is good. I mean everyone is eating it, right? It is a billion dollar industry right now, no one is falling sick, but then there is a kind of perspective everyone has about stockbroking and that is what we fight every single day. We have regulations from SEBI, RBI, government, I mean it just goes on and on, every single entity we deal with has a new set of regulations that we have to incorporate while building anything. So one of the biggest hurdles that we face every single day when trading starts is payments. People need to transfer money before they start trading. They need to transfer a withdrawal, that is very much it, right? Whatever they do with their money inside their other is up to them, but for them to start trading they need to transfer money. This is the breakdown of how the money gets transferred in, so 80% is from the payment gateway and 20% is from the other various resources, NEST, MPS, RTGS and internal transfer from bank to bank. And these are the pain trends in the last two years, two to three years. So we have seen a reduction in NEFT by around 20 to 24% and it is right now still the highest, 53% and I will get to why it is still the highest, why people use it a lot rather than IMPS or any of the other things. And there is IMPS which has been an increase in the amount of usage of it and then Intrabank, RTGS is there, RTGS people want to transfer big amounts to the end of using RTGS. So NEFT, so as I showed in the majority of our transfers happen via NEFT and one of the biggest reasons when we check out our databases is to see who all are using this are historical, I mean old clients, they just have faith in it. They don't, I mean IMPS is there, okay, we don't care about it, we'll just still use NEFT, you just give us anything you want, we'll still use NEFT and that's the thinking that's prevalent among many Indians, right, we are very hard to change our habits, takes time. So and some do it to save money rather than using a payment gateway, the additional charges using payment gateway, right, which the client has to pay. So they don't want that, it might be 10 rupees, they're like, no, I'm going to transfer 10 lakhs, I'm going to pay 10 rupees, I'll use NEFT. That's not the only reason, NEFT gives us the source of each transfer, which is, I mean, which is going to be prevalent across the entire talk. SEBI is, literally SEBI sits on our throat. If you have seen an image of a sleep paralysis where a person lies down and someone is, someone is sitting on top of them, that is SEBI for us. So they need, they can come to us at any point of time, to our CAs and just say give us a source of every single transfer that has happened in and out of the bank. Out of the bank is great because we have a society because we are the, we know which bank we're transferring it out from. So transferring in is the problem. NEFT gives us that, well, this guy has, this person has transferred from this bank, this is the account ID. Great, we can give that. The disadvantage of NEFT, the advantage stays there. After that, it's just bad. It falls under NPCI. So modern infra is not there. It's just random legacy software that we have to deal with. The settlement takes more than 30 minutes to a few hours. And settlement takes more time during month end or when salaries are being disembursed. So during the month end, we just can't, our names don't rhyme with Modi. So we just can't say you can't take money of your account at the end of the month. So it's just slow at the end of every single month. And if we ask the bank, bank says more settlement, can't do it, you've got to wait. So that is how, that is how the settlement process gets delayed. A tiny definition here, settlement here means that if you're transferring money from A to B, that's from your bank to us. If the money hits a trading terminal that is reaching us, that is a settlement process. So if you're transferred at morning nine o'clock and it takes four hours to reach us, that's, that's a delay. It should be in half an hour if you're doing NEFT. It should be one hour max, but why should it take four hours? And we, people ask us for explanation. We don't have any because banks give us random explanations. Moving on to IMPS, it's catching up, but as its name suggests, there is nothing instant about it again. It is completely random or the amount of time taken. Everyone is very, I mean, excited about UPR because it's fast. Yes, and it uses IMPS. IMPS supposed to be instant, but it is not. Sometimes it takes time. And that time taken, no one knows, no one knows how to define it. It can take a few minutes. It can take a few hours. It can be just lost in somewhere. And the reconciliation again is a big issue. And why the reconciliation is a big issue? Because we don't get source account number from most of the banks. So we have no idea from where the money is coming from. So if you have an account and someone transferred you the money, do you know where it is coming from? No, right? I mean, unless, of course, the account ID is there. Otherwise, you're just happy someone sent you money and you go ahead and spend it. But so we don't have that. So to compensate that, we built a uploader. Someone has to go upload the screenshot of the receipt by the bank saying that they have transferred this money with their account number and the amount. And then we reconcile the amount. Then we update the terminal saying that you can now use this money to trade. Now if you build an uploader, they sometimes upload on. And where you saw the images that we don't want to see. That's what it is. Moving on to UPI. UPI is a very fancy utopian term, in my opinion. But at the end of the day, it's just a layer on top of different protocols. So it being a layer, it also is a layer on all the issues of all the protocols. So if you're not getting a source ID in IMPS, you'll never get one in IPI. And that's pretty much where we just have to stop using it. So we have a fancy term in UPI called handles. So certificate at Axis Bank or at TS Bank or STFC is not a credible enough name for any regulatory organization to accept it as a source ID for verification. So that's that. So we need some kind of mapping with other or some kind of resolution from, let's say, XYZ at UPI to account number that should be provided to us from the bank or from the TSP, from the TSP. Someone has to be accountable for it. We can't be. So if when we can't be, we can't use it. And there is obviously a lot of confusion and bickering, no guidelines as such. It's like in a programming term, it's like Oath. When Oath came into existence, everyone had their own interpretation of it. Everyone had their own implementation of it. And everyone started bickering about it. It's just a set of guidelines that everyone has a different way of implementing. UPI should not be the case where it sort of is in a way that they've implemented it. But at the end of the day, they can just say, you know what, we're going to stop it. We're going to not do it this way. So that is, there is no clear policies being set by anyone who should be responsible for it, for us to go ahead and use it. Next step is banking APIs. So I'll give you a tiny problem that we have. So I don't know if others face it. But in our bank, I will not name the bank. Rhymes with FC, when you transfer a lot of transactions into the bank, it generates a CSV file. By the way, every bank, every single bank in India, at least as far as I know, they all are still stuck with huge, huge file dumps. If you're going to what you call deal with them, you have to write importers for those files. It's not their idea of APIs or files. So they're still stuck with file-based batch processing approach. So if it's transferring a lot of, doing a lot of settlements during the day, and it crosses a certain limit, what HDFC, oh, did I see the name? Sorry. But what our bank does is tells us, well, use a routing account and open 20 different accounts. Then the routing account number will then route the transaction into this 20 different accounts using manual uploaders and a lot of manual work force. So that the CSV file that is generated for settlement doesn't get crowded. So their programmatic legacy code limit is that after 4,000 lines of CSV, if any settlement has happened, it will not be in the file. It will not be there. I'm sorry. That's the limit we have put on our software. You just have to deal with it. So they're dealing with it as their internal UPI. There's a routing and some random, it just goes into different accounts. So that's how it is. So because of IMPS, and we want more people to use IMPS because the resolution, the settlement is faster, we have written a bunch of hacks. We have actually forced the bank to write a bunch of hacks. So we need a reconciliation from them. In a programmatic term, it's called a callback. You do an API call, or you ask someone to do something, once that something is done, they need to send you a response. So if a bank is getting money, or a bank is getting money from you, a bank needs to send a settlement, a callback to you. So what they have done is, it's not real time, what they have done is they have written a batch trigger. After every 20, 30 transactions on a database in a small table, a trigger will be generated, and you will get a callback saying, these are the 10, 15 people who just transferred money to you, reconcile with them. Again, not real time, but it's the hacks that are there right now. It's the best that we can get, after all, groveling and begging. That is with API savvy young banks. The national banks are, I'm being very nice here, that they're slow in catching up. But slow is a very loose definition here. We'll not go there. So that hasn't stopped us from dreaming the UPI dream. So there was a very nice discussion yesterday in Birds of Heather where they said that your bank account, your money is like a data, and there are two operations that can happen on your data. One is a read and one is a write. You want to get the amount that you have, or you want to change the amount that you have by either transferring or adding to it. So that is what UPI's philosophy should be. The banks, there should not be any barriers of the banks underneath it. You don't have to care what is underneath a UPI layer. You just have to get your balance, or you transfer your balance. And one of the first things that we thought about, or one of the startups that we're working on, have thought about, is building an ad hoc saving app. So the ad hoc savings app is, OK, let's say you open a web, open, go to any website that everyone wants to sell something to you using your data. But let's think about doing the opposite, that is asking you to save some money. Now currently, if you're implemented without a UPI, you have to go through different hoops. Net banking, OTP, there is that, all of those things. But now if UPI pull requests are taken into consideration, and based upon your expenditure, if you get a pull request saying that you know what, you spend 50,000 rupees a year, why don't you save 100 rupees for any day? So that's what UPI brings. And you can just save it with a, I mean, that's the most easiest way to save some money. So that's one way of looking at UPI that it brings about a change in ad hoc savings. That was not the before. I mean, if it was there, it was very difficult to implement. Increase in SIPs by subscription service. So how many people here have invested in SIPs? Oh, that's a great number. So you're recurring, you subscribe to, I mean, you recurring deposit data, somewhat like that. So even we are into SIPs in our mutual funds platform. And this helps us a lot here. So for every month, we can send a pull request via UPI, and you can send us the money. And we'll invest in the SIP, and that's about it. So good, good things. Another most important thing is withdrawal right now. If you place a withdrawal request of your own money in our terminal, it takes a day for us to give it back. Sometimes a day, sometimes two days, three days. I mean, it just depends upon a lot of things. And we can't give a reasoning that, you know what, soldiers are waiting in the border for days and all. What the hell, you can't wait for a few hours. So that's not possible, no one accepts it. Only bucks do. I'm sorry if you're here. So we can't do that. So UPI is the biggest thing it solves for us is the withdrawal time. It reduces it by minutes, right? It's your money. You need to be able to take it from any conduit to anything anywhere else as soon as possible. And the other thing is banks are becoming more open, more accountable, and more abstracted. So first of all, more accountable. So right now, if a bank, if a, so we are using, let's say, a payment gateway, and some bank goes down somewhere in some corner of the country, for some reason. So if you ask a payment gateway, they'll blame the bank. If you ask the bank, they'll blame the internet connector provider, ISP, some cable underneath some motion has gone down, something or the other they'll give. So it increases the accountability of them. So you know where an API has gone down, right? It's very easy to debug that, but at least point the blame to them. And then greater financial inclusion. And this is one of the most important factors. If more people become knowledgeable of how UPI works, how banking works, rather than moving away from a place where banks are great because they have branches everywhere. I mean, that's how we buy Maruti cars, right? They're great because their service station is everywhere. But that should not be the only reasoning why we buy Maruti, why we should buy a car. So that's a financial inclusion. So they have to be more acceptable towards this new revolution. They have to go and educate more people. And that is, at the end of the day, helping us will help us more in explaining to them that stock market is not all about gambling. It's also investing. And the fastest ways of investing in withdrawing money by UPI. So what we need is better payment aggregators. Currently, one of the issues that we have a payment aggregator is that they do batch settlements. And because it's a batch settlement, multiple settlements have one ID. Say, he doesn't like it. So we can't do usage. So clear up policies and policy makers. So if you sit in any of the policy sessions, you can see that the only policy maker out there in this country is traveling somewhere outside. And all banks accepting the revolution are just the top five. So that's another important thing. We can't force people to move from a corporate bank to one of the top five banks just because they have better APIs. Everyone should be under the same wavelength. Everyone should be on the same wavelength and should accept what's happening. And finally, more modern APIs and less file batch processing. Please just stop this file approach. This is crazy in 2017. Thank you. Thank you, Satjit. Very quickly, before we go to the questions, I think we might as well have Sandhya, you had some announcements to make. So we have a bunch of discounts. Ken has offered a 250 rupees discount on the yearly subscription for 50p participants. Capital Mines has offered a 15% off. Takshashila Institution has offered 10% off fee waiver for their graduate certificate in public policy. All of the email codes, all of the discount codes will be emailed to all of you after the conference. Thank you. So we had a few questions. We'll start from here. Once again, once again, the mic. So with the issues that you're facing with some of the banks, in this case, you are a bank, right now because you share the whatever the bank. I don't want to name it anyway. So right now, because you share with the bank, the account number, as well as the IFSC code, it is very hard in order to replace the banks for you underlying, because the users will always transfer to the same bank. Does UPI in any way help you in order to abstract this process so that you can change the underlying bank to a different bank if they are better? UPI does help in that department, that obviously you can change the underlying bank. But UPI is renowned more for its abstraction, that it keeps hiding your bank account with more layers. So even if the underlying changes, we still need the underlying ID from somewhere, right? The different bank can provide a better service, so you can switch to it easily. I don't know. Yeah, it's a good thing. If a different bank is providing a better service, you can easily switch, which is a very good thing. But then again, if you're switching, then the bank that you're switching to should be responsible enough to provide us with your account ID when the transfer is happening. That we haven't used yet. Yeah, it's still there. Very quickly before we move on to the next question, something you mentioned about SEBI. They don't seem to be in the loop about UPI and its possible impacts on a lot of their regulations, right? Nobody seems to have. So which is why they seem to be like, what is this UPI? We don't care. Exactly. I mean, they're not just in the loop. They're completely silent about it. In the sense that unless they say that you can go ahead and use it, we just can't use it at all. So because they don't have a SEBI, they're refusing to have a SEBI right now, we just can't make up our own software and build something that will someday get scrapped because someone didn't like it in SEBI. We'll move on to more questions. Anybody else? Yeah, the corner. So if somebody moves in, let's say, 1,000 bucks into your system, what are the costs? And who's subsidizing that rate? Good question. So currently, the subsidy lies, the transfer of charges that you're going to pay are paid by you if you're using the payment gateway. And otherwise, if you're using NEFT or IMPS, all of those charges are being paid by the client itself. So just to talk a little more about it, there was a bit of discussion outside that what happens when the more players get involved with UPI and the more layers being created? And what if the layers add on more charges? Who pays for those charges? And I think finally it will come down to you paying the charges. If tomorrow morning, I think if your biggest concern is your payment gateway charges, then you don't know how much STD you are paying. STD is the biggest demon when you're trading it. You pay a lot of taxes there. Payment gateway is very, very less. But then we accept or we expect at least that if the UPI, the charges will be taken care by the government, some way or the other it will be levied on you in a different way. That we are a little naive about it right now. But expect it to be on the client always. Citizens always pay. Any other questions? Oh, sorry, one more. Yeah, sorry, yeah. I think payment gateway is around $10. NEFT is around $5. And somewhere around INP is something somewhere around that. I don't know the exact number, to be honest. But I know that it's, I mean, I know this number because people refuse to use the payment gateway because we charge $10 on that. And NEFT is cheaper than that. And INP is cheaper than NEFT. Oh, sorry, one more question. OK, I think that's that then. So thank you, Satyaji. Please give him a round of applause.