 You have a lot more control over how burned out your people get than a lot of people think about and we need to take the the onus off of individuals and place it on Systems and leaders to do as much as they can to to protect their their people from getting burnt out Hello and welcome to a new weekly webcast from get lab where we gather in really interesting Amazing people in the remote work community and we tackle the real challenges But of course, we try not to take ourselves too seriously So this week I'm thrilled to be able to announce Courtney and she's joining me to talk about the neuro science behind remote work So Courtney, thank you so much for joining me. Give the audience a background on who you are and where you're working at Hi, Darren, and thank you so much for having me. I'm excited that you all are doing this and that you're getting such a great Group of people to join you Yeah, so my name is Courtney Nash I am an editor for a company called Holloway. We're a new digital Publishing company and you might say well that has nothing to do with neuroscience and that's mostly true But before I got into publishing and actually before I really got involved with the technology industry I was a PhD candidate in neuroscience at the University of Illinois, Champaign-Ribbana I was about less than a year away from my dissertation when I ran off to go work at Amazon.com I guess the lure of the internet was a bit too much But but at the time that I was in grad school I was really interested in learning and memory systems and so I I was in a neuroscience lab that studied those And which is part of what we'll we'll talk about today So I am not like a card-carrying practicing neuroscientist anymore just like for all disclosures and caveats And I'm certainly not offering like medical advice or anything But I hope to be able to give people a bit of an understanding of There really is some solid neuroscience around a lot of the things that people are probably experiencing right now That they might not be aware of why that's happening and hopefully that and maybe some strategies for how to manage but but I think just Understanding that you're not alone and what's going on is is very like understandable. It may not be pleasant But for me just even that helps me like feel like okay, at least I can kind of understand what's happening and why Well, I'll say that you could also just go into therapy or consulting. I think the line out your door would be very But for historical context we're recording this in the midst of a global pandemic So people globally are isolated and tens of millions of people are now working from home so maybe even if they've been told you can't work remotely or this job doesn't work remotely suddenly they are working remotely as Am I as you can hear my pop? I can hear it. Yeah Yeah, I think someone just pulled up But such is real life in the world of remote workers and for people that aren't used to things like the pop going crazy When FedEx shows up this can be really disorienting really jarring and it's the realities of the new Virtual office so the first question I want to ask you is what are you seeing as the effect of on people when they're experiencing this Virtual office combined with other Atypical things in life global isolation not being able to go do And see and interact and communicate like you normally would because both things are happening on top of each other So it's really easily it's really easy to conflate the two Exactly and that was that was the thank you for an excellent lead into that So that's that's where I was going to start just adapting to working remotely is a big deal for someone who's never done it and What's happening is is a combinatorial isolation kind of effect, right? And so so there's the aspects of isolation Working remotely, but what I really what in particular I'll come back to that but what I really want to focus on is the stress because we're not just working from home, right we're working during a pandemic and That'll that in particular the latter part is I mean, I can't imagine a bigger stressor for most people And it's it is a corollary to Chronic stress that some people experience like there There's a whole slice of people in the world who experience chronic stress for a variety of reasons. It might be poverty But health conditions might be a variety of, you know, social socioeconomic factors and now everyone's Experiencing this this chronic stress, right? and and there's been a lot of research into the effects of stress and then chronic stress on your brain Because that's what's processing all of this stress, right? And so in the short term The way we react to stress is is really good in general and really healthy, right? Everybody's probably familiar with sort of the notion of like a fight or flight reaction, right? You get a surge of like adrenaline or and a bunch of other things are going on and there's certain parts of your brain that get the kind of fire up and get more involved, you know, sort of Emotional systems and your amygdala and all these brain parts that I could mention, right? So this whole system of sort of Activation of fight or flight happens and in in normal times. That's great, right? It makes us more resilient. It helps us solve problems and tackle challenges and like have a hyper focus on something Sweet the brain does that really well, and then you do it and you stop, right? And all of that receipts but we're in that like non-stop and with No known end, right? So this system is sort of like hyperactive in your brain and there's a couple of things that that that results in one These other parts of your brain that are also really important Don't like get as much attention and aren't working very well things like your hippocampus and your prefrontal cortex and the things that are involved in like memory and Being able to like make decisions and remember things Which becomes important over the long run, right? And so these trade-offs are starting to happen cognitively I think that's the first thing. So if if people feel like I'm I'm really super forgetful. It's really hard to keep track of things like I'm distracted I am scatterbrained That's why your your brain is scatterbrained It's scattered in this direction of you know fight or flight and you're not dedicating a lot of resources and ability to Normal cognitive fun, you know functioning and thinking so that's the first one Is this exacerbated by the fact that those kinds of things rarely happen in your office? Like the things you were just describing I feel like happen Like a leo de caprio survival Your home or your office. Yeah, well, I think the other thing is is like Those those systems in your brain are not they're not really like fine-tuned, you know They're not like I'm stressed out in my office. So I'll be like less stressed out. They're just like Right so yes, it's it's the problem is is there's no attenuation to that And so you're experiencing like your brain's like there's this pandemic going on in the world I'm worried about my family and my friends and my job and my safety and my health but I'm supposed to be like on a zoom call right now and you know So like so you're at fight or flight mode about the world and then you're supposed to be Focused and getting stuff done or and like and also you have children at home and all the other things going on So it's it's actually making it worse. I think yes. Yeah. Yeah So the benefit is having the technology to enable remote work allows us to have business continuity The downside is we could kind of use a break To deal with all that survival stuff and that that segues into my next question, which is What do we do as team members as other as humans as colleagues as peers to support one another? Yeah And the second part of that is it's really easy to just look to a manager or a team leader or an executive To have all the answers, but those people are also Fighting this same exact battle. It may look a little differently, but they're under duress as well Yeah, they're under duress. They've never managed under scenarios like this. They've never handled anything like this Um, and so yeah, they're they're very stressed out as well Um, I think well first of all, I think the first thing that team that people on your teams should do and that everyone should Is like talk talk about this stuff I think is the most important thing is to be really open and honest and explicit and not act like Everything's fine, you know, and we should everything should be normal And I think we kind of joked about this when you know join the calls Our first instinct to ask humans when we see them is like, how are you doing and usually we're like, I'm fine I'm great or whatever and like No one should be saying it's fine right now We don't have to pretend it's okay, and we can stop pretending. It's okay And and talking about what's going on Really is important to helping us process all of that stuff. It's it's a bit of a release valve And so I think really being open about it is incredibly important And acknowledging, you know that I know a lot of people are really struggling with like Should I take time off? It seems really weird, right? This is I've seen this discussion a lot How do you take time off right now? And and gee, I guess I shouldn't because like whatever I'm home and I can work and Where am I gonna go, right? I'm I can't I'm not gonna go on vacation. I'm not going to but I think one of the other things about You know as this stress becomes more chronic the effects on your brain and your body really start to add up and If you don't do some really specific conscious things about that Then you're gonna you're gonna struggle and like I notice this even myself I mean the number one thing I tell people and a lot of people are gonna hate me for this is you have to exercise Like you just have to if you don't you this is gonna It's gonna overwhelm your body because exercise releases a lot of chemicals in your brain in your body that counteract the kinds of stress, you know Glucocortico steroids like stuff that you know if you're producing these other things you're producing serotonin You're producing things that like calm that system down and like actually help me exercise is 100% the number one thing last like last week I'm doing zoom gym. You know, especially my gym. They're amazing They're trying to adapt to this all of this themselves and I only went I had we'll come back to sleep I was sleeping like crap Like my Stomach was all upset and so like two out of the three days. I would have normally worked out last week I didn't and then the wheels started coming off for me like pretty hard and I just hit a wall yesterday like I was I was Pretty depressed pretty unmotivated really irritable like and I kind of thought about it And I was like, oh, yeah I didn't I didn't work out and my husband my husband made me go for a bike ride and I felt much better I'm not saying everybody has to ride bikes, but exercise Exercise exercise. That's the first release you have and the other is talking to people about it So being open with your team talking with your team I'm I'm going back to see my therapist over over like Teletherapy just because even though I feel like I have a lot of the tools that you know I don't know I don't have all the tools for this none of us I don't know. She'll know what to tell me what to do, right? Um, but I think like that openness with your team about what's going on is really important and not bottling that up But then then taking time off like just to come back to that Even if it means you just you shut the laptop down for the day Turn all of your notifications off. Please Manage your notifications people don't let these things that's you know with remote work if you're new to it It's really easy to let that stuff Bleed into your whole life. Yeah, and whatever you can do to take a day off is So important and if it's just watching Whatever or playing video games with your kids or gardening or something But you've got to give your brain a break from That constant, you know onslaught don't read Twitter. Don't read the news Like you can give yourself a day off and a break even in this Environment and that's I think so important even though it seems really weird right now until your earlier point Where do I go? Where you go can be a different state of mind Even if you can't physically get out of the house We have some people that get lab where they physically sit in one chair to work And then there's the rest of the chairs in the house or for not work. Yeah You got to build these contingencies in where you get in a different state of mind You close down the notifications you physically move to a different space and you disengage with work and reengage with what it is That makes you a human. We just had our chief marketing officer Last week said, you know what? I just I just need a couple days And so Friday and Monday like I'm not going anywhere. I'm just gonna spend more time with my kids I'm gonna sleep in a little I'm gonna exercise more than I have been and the exercise thing is key I have appreciated The feeling of exercising for a long time I always can tell if I haven't done it if it gets too late in the day and it hasn't happened It's noticeable. Yeah noticeable and it's only exacerbated And so if you've been looking for a great excuse to exercise and to keep blowing off the New Year's resolution Now is the perfect time to do it. I will also say this came up on some other You know sort of session like this that I was honest and people Who it was she had the best advice and I'm I'm gonna tell you who it was later because I hate to I hate to steal people's ideas I'm not credit them But she was basically saying no better time right now than to test out like a personal trainer or a gym or great Granted not in person, but there are a lot of places that are doing things for free for very cheap very, you know sort of innovative things that you can do in your living room and Especially if you're like don't like to go to group classes or gyms and you feel really intimidated by that Even more so now and especially if you can't like a four to three thousand dollar peloton Because that one's going really big right now It can be the smallest of things and I know like if people don't exercise to have someone tell them You just exercise is like super annoying But even just a little bit making sure you get up and like walk around a bunch or just do some I mean like it could be as remedial as it gets It's just getting those other systems flushing in your body is yeah, it's important You brought up one thing I want to underscore which is leadership modeling these things So when you said it was your CMO who chose to take a couple days off and told everyone that I think that's really So essential because people it's easy for me to also do a lot of advice like you should just take time off But somebody who's not a manager or not an executive who's feeling really stressed and feeling like they're not productive enough Which you're gonna feel no matter what because your brain is fried right now They might not feel safe or empowered or you know able to do that and people are really worried about job security right now So leadership at a company is modeling that behavior than people are gonna feel safe To take that time off and do that for themselves And and that's where burnout in particular if people think about it as their own individual problem Right like oh I'm burnt out like what do I have to do and again? I want to just scream from the rooftops to the leaders at companies that that burnout is a systemic thing You have control over You have a lot more control over how burned out your people get then a lot of people think about and we need to take the the onus off of individuals and place it on Systems and leaders to do as much as they can to protect their their people from getting burnt out And and modeling that I think is one of the most important things people can do It's really interesting because what I heard in that is you as a company need to be intentional About setting up a structure in an atmosphere to help your team avoid burnout And what I've been recommending to people going into remote for the first time is you just have to be more intentional About everything you have to be more intentional about creating mechanisms for people to communicate informally More intentional about how and why and where things are documented just to keep the wheels on the bus Yeah, but that also extends to the mental health of your team if you just sort of let everybody deal with it on their own Without modeling it to the point people are generally going to default into well I'm gonna sacrifice all of me until there's nothing left at which point. It's probably too late Yeah, and the hands raised which I'm really bad at right and I think a lot of we you know A lot of people and knowledge work and the kinds of companies at least we were talking about in That are capable of supporting remote work. These are like driven people, you know, you're showing up to work every day Not wanting to goof off And it's really easy to not see those like wording signs and I I am The worst that is sometimes even though I know all of this. It doesn't mean we're good at doing it and so Yeah, and the intentionality part. I mean, I'm not working full-time right now It's impossible with my children and everything going on And so I my hours are like when I'm a really available I put that on my calendar for everyone that I I work with to be able to see And yeah, we've got all kinds of documentation and ways for everyone to understand what's going on without You know necessarily having to be able to just I'm almost done. Thanks bud It's the point I like I was like, you know, and then just two things one on the thing on underscore It's just really hard for parents, right and you and I have talked about this and like that right there If you're already Distracted and your brain's not working, right? And then you you get interrupted like every 10 minutes like good luck God bless all of you deity, whatever for even like Getting stuff done every day because I don't think it's it's hard to explain what it's like like to have this Just like amazingly built in interrupt rate That having you know kids around is But one thing I also wanted to underscore is this is really hard on people who don't have kids too and Yeah, I think it's a huge challenge for for leadership a company is to figure out like how to How do you support all of that? And I think there's a lot of really complex things going on I know that I struggle with Not only can I not work full-time, but even when I am working I'm Less productive as is anyone who doesn't have kids now and I'm really trying to like wrap my brain around What does it mean to not be the most competent? Like contributing member of my team that I'm used to being able to birth to be like if I need to grind something out and get it done I Can do that I could do that. I Can't like and that is like just I can't even say it out loud. It's so hard People their own identities are being thrown into question right now because you can't function at the level that you're accustomed to functioning at Yeah, and then you're like well is my is my job at risk Are people having to pick up work for me and are they bitter about it like? Y'all need to get this stuff on the table Right and keep you know like it has to be out there and discussed and open because there's just so much emotional uncertainty and Scary stuff for everyone whether we have kids or don't have kids and if you leave people who are now Behind a computer that you can't see in real life They'll they'll spin out right like they'll have like Worries like why didn't hear from so-and-so, you know, maybe they aren't You know, maybe I am less of a priority now because I have to worry about my kids You know like maybe the company's off doing other stuff and I don't really know about it You know like you got to get that stuff on the table because that is another You know contributor to people's anxieties to their stress to their you know Mental well-being um, so it being explicit about that is also so so critical right now. Yeah There's huge cultural implications with this especially for organizations that have historically been more command and control and don't The check yourself at the door organizations, which now cannot afford to be that and It needs to be modeled at the very top Because to your point Someone who isn't a manager or an executive Simply surfacing this on a one-on-one on a one-on-one could be seen as an excuse for underperformance, which it is Absolutely not And there needs to be a more empathetic approach from the very top on Listen, we don't know what each individual is going through but we collectively understand that we're all going through something So therefore it is now okay. We are making cultural changes for it to be okay To discuss these things because it will lead to better productivity. It's better for the business to get these things out in the open Yeah, so like I I can't I can't uh, I can't stress that more or underscore that more. I think I said the word Well, um, you know, it's it's the work at home brain, you know, and you have that Amazing kid that you need to get to so with that I do want to thank you so much for joining For anyone watching check out hollow way They've they've compiled an amazing guide on remote work that courting was kind enough to ask me to edit and contribute to Google hollow ways guide to remote work Check it out download it share it far and wide is it it is an amazing resource with collective decades of experience behind it So if you're transitioning to remote, I can't think of a better resource to check out Be sure to follow hollow way on twitter Be sure to follow get lab on twitter and linkedin and I want to throw a tease to another episode We're hoping to have Courtney back and we want to talk about the culture of going back When we can as a society Collectively go back into physical workspaces Will we and will it look exactly the same and what happens to the contingent of people that say Hey, I actually prefer this remote thing. What does the world look like when all of that happens? So that will be coming up soon. Be sure to give us feedback in the comments and check out the links as well Thank you so much for joining me aloha and mahalo