 Good evening everyone. I'm going to call to order this meeting of the Capitola Planning Commission I want to welcome everyone who's here this evening and who may be watching from home Just an announcement to begin this meeting is being cablecasts live on charter communications cable TV channel 8 and AT&T you verse channel 99 it is being recorded and will be replayed Next Monday and Friday at 1 p.m. On charter channel 71 and Comcast town 25 The meeting can also be viewed at the city's website at www.cityacaptola.org and tonight our tenet Technician is Lynn Dutton With that we will have a roll call, please check it Commissioner Newman Missioner Smith here missioner Welch here Commissioner Westman chairperson story here. Well, everybody stand and join me in the Pledge of Allegiance I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands One nation under God indivisible with liberty and justice for all The next on our agenda is oral communications First we'll begin with additions and deletions to the agenda Staff having a request for additions or deletions. We did receive two additional materials for item 5d for 4015 Capitola Road a letter from the attorney as well as a letter from the Architect and those are available at the back of the room and you each have one at your seat They came in at 12 at around noon and the second one came in at 5 30 p.m. This evening Thank you Any other Commissioners any additions or deletions to the agenda? See a none. We'll move on to public comments This is an opportunity for members of the public to address the planning commission on items that are not on tonight's agenda Is there anyone there who would like to speak on? Some other items so it looks like we are all here for an agenda item So I'll close the public comments portion of the meeting and we'll go on to commission comments Commissioners start with my left Just a reminder that this weekend is the car show that's put on by the public safety foundation So it'll be a lot of fun Saturday and Sunday Thank you for that Linda Next we are staff comments. No comments Okay We'll move on to approval of the minutes. This is the planning Commission regular meeting of April 5th 2018 and I had a number to regular meeting of May 3rd 2018 Maybe we'll deal with the April 5th first It's our motion to approve Make a motion to approve them their second Second any member of the public was to comment on that motion See none all in favor. Hi any opposed Like the motion passes unanimously Jackie the next item is Approving of the minutes of the regular meeting of May 3rd 2018 Is there a motion to approve or any changes? I'll move to approve May 3rd All right motion and a second Any member of the public wish to comment on those meeting minutes seeing none all in favor Hi any opposed that motion passes unanimously Jackie next is our consent calendar. That's item number four These are routine and generally Uncontested items And we have to on the consent agenda tonight They're concerning 734 orchard Orchard Avenue and 4795 Garnett Street Is there any commissioner that wishes to pull one of these items? Seeing none is there member of the public that would like to pull one of these items for further discussion Seeing none, I'm gonna Mr. Chairman may ask if you do them one at a time. Yes, I will do them one at a time We'll begin with for a which is 734 Orchard Avenue Is there a motion? I'll make a motion to approve as Drafton second and there's a motion in second Any hearing no further discussion all in favor? Motion passes unanimously Jackie The next item is for B, which is 4795 Garnett Street This is an application for a design permit to add a new roof I will recuse myself from this due to property in the within the distance, okay All right, thank you second that there's a motion and a second all in favor. Hi any opposed Motion passes unanimously with one recusal That brings us to the public hearings for this evening and the first public hearing is 5a and That's concerning a coastal development permit for property located at 620 Monterey Avenue And we will begin with a staff report Good evening commissioners before you this evening is a coastal development permit for the new school for additional school buildings at 620 Monterey Avenue at the New Brighton Middle School Schools are not reviewed by the city. They're reviewed at a state level and therefore we don't have much Criteria to review this evening Other than whether or not it complies with the coastal development permit findings So I'm going to give you a brief overview of the application and what what's being taken away And what will be put into place and then the applicant is here with a presentation to kind of go through the design and the Big picture with you. So this is within the public facilities zone and in this image the red buildings these are The ones on the top right are all modular buildings and the center one is also a modular building that will be taken down everything outlined in red will be demolished within the application and So again, and the red was to be taken down and they're going to be installing at the very top Sorry This building here will have classrooms and they're going to have a new building here that will have a wood shop and art studio and Introducing to a locker space and also a gym room over to the right. So with the Sorry Having technical difficulties over here touching buttons not meaning to So one thing we do look at within the review of a coastal development permit is parking and The existing parking on the site is a hundred and forty eight spaces with the new application They've actually created two extra spaces, so it'll go up to one hundred and fifty In reviewing the application We found that there's no increase in the intensity of the use because with the modulars being taken away and the new Buildings coming in there's actually a decrease of 1,268 square feet of classrooms space And due to the locker rooms are considered an ancillary use because you don't hold a classroom in there And they're not increasing the occupancy of the site So that was the one item of review and I thought I would leave the design discussion With the applicant within their presentation So with that staff is recommending approval of the application For additional structures at new Brighton Middle School based on the findings and conditions of approval Before we are there any questions from commissioners on the staff report? I Did have a question Katie about and I know we don't have The usual jurisdiction over this project, but do we have the ability? to attach some Conditions or findings about the process of construction usually we you know have some conditions to help mitigate the noise the times of Construction we can and I noticed in a previous application at this site We limited the hours Monday through Friday, and I want to say 8 a.m. To 5 p.m. Yeah So we could talk to the applicant about so we we do have the ability to do have the ability those requests Thank you for that And before I ask the applicant to come up I did I guess in full disclosure I have a daughter that's graduating from New Brighton Middle School tomorrow And so but since she's leaving and will not reap the benefits of this new construction I don't feel that I have a conflict But I did want to disclose You know my relationship to this project with that I'll invite the applicant to come up and Tell us more about it So my name is Andrew Fullerton. I work for Maddie group architects and Senators in the Sashmel We work for the district And the impetus for this project is basically There was a measure passed in November ballot 2016 measure C to remove old portables rundown classrooms and Prepare new classrooms for the For the students incoming in the 2019 year and That's what we are attempting to do. It's a very tight schedule and as you'll understand kids Only have the summer off and and so the construction is going to take place Starting fairly quickly here. I think also some groundbreaking has already taken place through summer 2019 So my My presentation is going to be fairly similar to Katie's this is aerial view of new Brighton school as it stands right now the Areas in yellow are portables that are going to be Removed from scope. They're going to be demoed and some of these portables were installed prior to 1980 and Generally, they have a 30 to 40 year lifespan if you're really pushing it and And and we kind of are here So it's a great upgrade for the students to get into new permanent classrooms that can last a longer lifetime and and we have Generally better teaching environment Also involved as well as classrooms are some facilities that The school just needs to run its programs They're currently running The physical education department out of two old portables That's the little yellow ones right beside the large gym On your right-hand side of your picture Those will be replaced with a state-of-the-art locker room We're also including a Mat room for weights that sort of thing and a dance room as well and That space can be opened up for large groups that sort of thing in addition the Yellow building to the right-hand side is a group of four classrooms. That's being removed. Those are old portables that were installed in Part of almost the original school the second iteration of the school in 1972 and Those have outlived their use they'll be replaced with a state-of-the-art art shop And also a wood shop with us with a general ed classroom in between And then This was the master plan for the site which was developed with the district Which shows kind of a future layout of the campus Where we feel and the district feels that it could progress to in the future and This is a layout of What will be the new zero wing is what the Is the classrooms towards the east side of the campus six classrooms and restrooms fairly standard all with Upgraded technology and good teaching spaces and then these are the floor plans for the other two buildings on the left-hand side, there's the locker room and two locker rooms and the dance and mat room Towards the side of that and on the right-hand side We've got the art studio at the top the general ed classroom in the middle and the wood shop On the bottom and there's some 3d renderings of those spaces the top picture there is the locker room and dance and mat studio Bottom left is the view from Monterey Avenue towards the new classroom buildings and the bottom right picture is showing the Three classroom cluster with the art and wood shop You have any questions? No, I had one question. You heard me ask the question about You know if we had the ability to you know impose certain conditions just to protect the neighbors and it's about You know the hours of operation how early in the morning you can stop and Measures to mitigate, you know like dust and things that go with particulates that go in the air our Does the applicant have any issue with those or? We have had a couple of notifications from neighbors That have kind of spoken with our foreman on site and and Those have been taken care of by the contractors If there are any others will endeavor to meet those I don't have any Recollection of of any complaints about noise. It was mainly about Dust on someone's birthday. I think they're having a party or something right, right? Okay So sounds like that that could be feasible, but I mean Yeah, you haven't started the construction yet. So, you know Some some construction has started to take place. There's been some grind clearing and and grind works. Okay Uh, well, thank you for your presentation. Are there other members of the public that would like to Speak on this item seeing none. I'm gonna close the The microphone and I'll bring it back to the commission for further discussion and action I would like to clarify that the construction hours under the code are Um From 7 30 a.m to 9 p.m on weekdays and on weekends on saturday between 9 a.m and 4 p.m Yes, thank you So is um, what are the commissioners feelings on this project? Well, I think it's a great project. It's nice to see these improvements happening up in new brighton Like you have had children who've gone through no brighton and It really could use some updating in some new classrooms. Those portables are pretty tired So i'm happy to see that they're spending the money this way to improve the school I agree with that. I like the design. I think it's a good fit for for capitol I don't have any issues with adding the conditions about the construction. I think that's probably a good idea Yeah, thank you I'm I'm fine in and in favor of staff recommendation to approve the project as it is Well, was that there a second I guess I can make a motion to um add the condition for our standard construction So that that that gets it here too and the neighbors can know that and approve the project as otherwise drafted Thank you. There's a motion And there's a second With that, um, I'll call the question all in favor. Hi any opposed? Hearing none the motion passes unanimously Congratulations, and thank you for bringing this project forward It's been the kids deserve it and you know, and and they will Benefit greatly from it. So thank you um That will move on to item 5 b um This is an application for an amendment the master sign program at 103 and 105 Stockton avenue And we'll begin with a staff report. Thank you chairman story So tonight, uh, the proposed amendment is to increase the maximum sign dimensions And allow an additional wall sign for the tenant at 105 Stockton avenue Properties located at the intersection of Stockton avenue riverview avenue and the esplanade at the western entrance to the central village zoning district A master sign program in general establishes the allowed materials letter style height color and illumination of signs for multi-tenant buildings in the city of Capitola An msp is approved by the planning commission with subsequent approvals administered by the community development director or his or her designee For signs which comply with the program In 2002 an msp was approved for 103 and 105 Stockton avenue. That's our meetah and Space next door That msp allowed a wall sign located on the existing copper awnings in front of the business along Stockton avenue Approximately 27 inches tall by 10 feet long or 18 and a half square feet with capital letters being 18 inches tall Uh, it also allowed a wall sign located on the existing copper awning on the side of the business along the riverview path Approximately 24 inches tall by eight feet long or 13 square feet with capital letters being 15 inches The two current armita wall signs, however In the locations described are both 24 inches high and eight feet long with capital letters less than 12 inches in height The current application is the result of a code enforcement complaint The applicant installed two signs at 105 Stockton avenue without a permit The two exterior signs are 32 inches tall by 96 inches long or 21.3 square feet And the msp does not allow a wall sign on the east elevation along riverview avenue So the two signs are out of compliance with the master sign program The applicant is proposing two changes to the master sign program One allowed the tenant at 105 Stockton avenue to have a second sign on the wall adjacent to riverview avenue And two increased the maximum sign dimensions allowed under the master sign program to 32 inches tall by 96 inches wide thereby allowing the signs that they placed Staff supports the request for the second wall sign on the wall adjacent riverview avenue Because the applicant is on a corner parcel And allowing a second sign along riverview avenue is an allowance that currently exists for wall signs on corner lots in the capital municipal code Under that code section businesses which are located adjacent to two streets Or on a corner shall be permitted one additional wall sign to face the second adjacent street if the business is not identified on a monument sign As they are not identified here. So Sceptre does not however support the request for larger sign dimensions The proposed dimensions which are illustrated by the non-conforming signs currently in place Are out of balance with the other tenant signs Under the capitol and municipal code a central village sign should relate to the surroundings in terms of size shape Color texture and lighting so that they are complementary to the overall design of the building and are not in visual competition with other conforming signs in the area The old master sign program is also a little difficult to read So what we decided to do is just sort of lay out a better formatted overall Master sign program as the amendment. So the new msp that we created involves several elements One each tenant is allowed to have two wall signs Um Our awning signs as that may be in this case At 103 Stockton avenue signs may be located on the awnings on the south elevation along Stockton avenue and the west elevation along Soco creek At 105 Stockton avenue signs may be located on the awning on the south elevation along Stockton avenue And on the wall on the east elevation along riverview avenue Signs may be up to eight feet wide and two feet high which matches the existing armita sign size Signs may have up to two lines of text Text in the first line Shall be no greater than 12 inches in height and text in the second line of text shall be at least two inches smaller than the text in the first line Sign shall relate to their surroundings in terms of shape color and textures So they are complementary to the overall design of the building and not in visual competition with other conforming signs in the area Signs on the east and south elevation shall be attached to the top of the awnings the way they're currently are at armita Signs on the west elevation shall be attached to the wall Signs shall be externally illuminated and that illumination shall be down directed and shielded to light The signs only and not light trespass onto adjacent properties And sign applications that comply with the master sign program shall be approved administratively by the community development director So staff recommends that the planning commission approve the master sign program as updated by staff And require the applicant to decrease the size of the existing signs at 105 Stockton avenue Based on the conditions and findings for approval Thank you Are there questions from commissioners on snap report? Yes, it's um So with the new sign program The existing signs that are there would come down And they would submit new signs To staff for approval one on the front and one on the side that conform to this and staff will Is part of that process look at the colors Of the signs so that they fit with the building rather than the sort of stark white that's there right now, which in my opinion Doesn't fit with the sort of character and color scheme of the building So you will look at colors too. That is correct. Okay. Thank you Go ahead. Okay First um The process here it sounds like you drafted a master sign program for the applicant This is based on the existing master sign program with this language cleanup. Okay, and they have uh bought into your new Version of their master sign program Or that's not what they requested because they were requesting dimensions that matched what they have currently in place That is not important sounds a little odd to me that the applicant It proposes a master sign program and we prepare our own that master sign program for them, but uh, I don't know. I'll see what other people think of that the other question I had was What about the vertical winery signs on the our meetup side of the building? Those would be non conforming signs Um, we have not received any code enforcement complaints about those and that's generally our um catalyst to take action. So well I mean if we're going to approve a new master sign program when there are violations existing that doesn't uh Sit well with me I think it would seem like both businesses would have to perform in a new sign program Uh, did you have something for you? Uh a couple questions one, um You know these seem to be I'm not one that is in favor of micromanaging, especially our staff But these seemed especially in the village seem to be um Very personal, um to other businesses in the community In the area and I hate to see the onus put on our community development director to pick The colors and the signs. So is there any consideration of maybe Making this a planning commission decision versus a community development director not I I I prefer you guys handling the things you just handled but um These types of things. I remember we had a lot of discussion So, um currently this is the only master sign program I know of in the village all signs typically come to the planning commission and that was something in the zoning code update That we did make an administrative review for signs, but not in the village. So Um, all sign permits do come to the planning commission. So this is unique We actually discovered the master sign program when the code violation came in and um The applicant originally signed uh brought in an application for a sign permit to come to the planning commission But once we realized there's actually a master sign program here We said actually you can't just bring in you you have to conform with this and then he says well, how do I Get them to look at this sign because this is what I'd like them to consider. So we we then took These steps to amend to clarify the master sign program Well, that would be one concern is maybe at least in the village it comes to the planning commission this is a somewhat sensitive Discussion in the village and we've denied or across the street. We denied the vertical um Sign after they had put quite a bit of money into it. So That'd be a Concern I would have is maybe having this come to the planning commission That would be consistent I'll save my comments Before we get to the public I had a question about The on 103 the second sign along Soquel Creek How does that fit into our ordinance? I mean it's not a set considered a corner It was just approved as part of the original that was part of the original. Yeah um And I and I believe the discussion in the minutes had to do with Visibility for people coming across, you know Stockton Avenue the bridge there into town That was their rationale for allowing that. Yeah, okay Thank you With that I'll open this item up to the public if members of the public wish to address the planning commission on this item Please step forward Seeing none. Um I'm going to close the microphone up and uh, I'll bring it back for commission discussion and action So were you trying to suggest that On the sign program that has been proposed by staff that We keep the sign program and change the bottom line or simply get rid of the sign Program and say all signs in the village need to come to the planning committee You know, I actually originally I thought just about changing the bottom. So it's not administrative, but Um Since this is the only master sign plan we have for the village I I could go either way I'm I'm open to either one of those I what is there a problem with doing that since we already have one master sign program, you know, we haven't discussed it with the property owner at all but Um Well, that would mean we would be treating this master sign program differently Then we have all our other master sign programs And it's the fact well the unique Features that it's in the village Gives us sufficient findings to Treat this one differently. So, um, I can bring up king's plaza as an example under the king's plaza master sign program There was an administrative review of most of the signs, but the larger signs within the king's plaza Are required to come to planning commission. So we we have set a precedence before of You know the Of coming to planning commission for certain signs If you like the Set up of having a balance between the two where they both have those front awnings Maybe keeping the master sign program as appropriate so that people know what to what to bring to the planning commission But otherwise if that's not A preference you could Well, maybe just to move this along unless anyone has a real disagreement Maybe we just keep this master sign program change the the wording the bottom that Um, it's not administrative that it comes back for review to the planning commission and then Will be wise in the future on If we do that, where does that leave the signs that they have today? Because I um, sort of Agree with um commissioner westman's comment that these signs the white background really jumps out at me and says it's not consistent And it doesn't look good. Um, if we Approve the master sign program It has to come to planning commission for approval then where does that leave them with a sign today? um I don't believe the applicant is here, but I would suggest possibly continue continuing this to the next meeting so that They could bring forth a design That possibly could be approved by the planning commission I'm totally uncomfortable with what's going on here going honestly. We've got I'm not even sure what the application is for but we've got the staff Designing a master sign program for an applicant who is not present didn't show up at the hearing and What I remember reading is they were saying that their signs they thought were similar to our meet is and they think they're maybe Seeking permission to have their signs There are other issues of non conforming signs I think we should continue this and try and restore some order to the application Kim. Yeah, it may be a formal way of doing that. It's just um Maybe I need some clear clarification But there's a sin that's back to the building owner on exactly what we're looking for as far as Some discussion on the sign review and that it needs to come back to the planning commission With some understanding general I don't think the idea of a master sign program in the central village right in the Is really given all the issues we've had about signs. It's a really good idea. I don't think it's a good idea either so we should continue it and But is there some way to communicate back to the applicant that the size increase that they're asking for is not Being approved Right. I think for for me You know, I would communicate to the applicant that their signs need to be similar to the two existing signs on armameter winery and that They don't need to be the exact same color, but they need to be something that's you know consistent It fits with the building Staff could communicate that with them. I agree And then continue it for a clarified application. We'll continue it to give everybody an opportunity to chat And if we do continue it, uh, what's the status of the current signs? We allowed them to keep them up through this meeting. So I guess we could all I'm give them up through the next one or not I don't have a problem Right to the next meeting then so do we have a motion to continue this item? I will so move I'll second it It's a motion and some staff took notes That they can be passed on to the applicant With that I'll call the question All in favor Motion passes unanimously Okay, thank you. Um before you tonight we have the retail cannabis establishment ordinance Chairperson story Oh, no, I was Sorry go for it So at the last meeting I provided you with an overview of The city council direction Towards a possible adoption of retail cannabis sales in the regional commercial zone And it'll be dependent on the voter approval So quick overview in 1996 prop 215 for medical marijuana passed In 2014 the city banned all commercial and cultivation processes for cannabis in the city limits In 2016 prop 64 passed for medical for recreational marijuana And in 2017 the city Updated our ordinance regarding cannabis to further ban commercial marijuana uses except for within laboratories And more recently after The direction in 2017 was let's see what what the state comes out with and then rethink this in the future So more recently the council has given us direction to move forward with a retail sales To be considered in the regional commercial district but based on a community vote. So This will This amendment will only take place if the community votes for it So the ordinances will include amendments to chapter 9.61 to allow A retail cannabis license This evening we're reviewing an amendment to the zoning code to allow it within the regional commercial district We'll also adopt a new marijuana tax ordinance and that will be the item that goes out for vote And amendments to the fee schedule for new applications that come in to be reviewed And as I previously stated that Tax considerations will be on the 2018 ballot measure to impose a local tax This because it will be on the um ballot measure. We're under a tight deadline and getting this completed. So All items have to be in by august So here we are in june 7th and tonight is our night to Consider the draft ordinance For allowing cannabis within the regional commercial The city council will review the first reading on june 28th followed by a second reading on july 26th And as you can see there's one other meeting on august 10th in which they could consider If if they want additional information or anything that could be considered at that august 10th Ballot deadline So the three parts to this are the zoning code Which is what we'll be reviewing this evening and The retail component for a retail cannabis License which will be under the purview of the police department which will include best practices Background checks and though it'll the owner will be responsible for the permit And the police will have the ability to revoke the permit or suspend it and the tax Initiative so with a not to exceed amount of 10 percent And the council will have the ability to adjust that That tax based on the market So here you can see the um where the regional commercial zone is it extends north from Capitola road it includes claire street 41st avenue and auto plaza drive I also included a regional map that shows the existing cannabis retail sales that are included within the city of Santa Cruz and the county of Santa Cruz and the blue square is our small little section of the regional commercial zone within capitol Um, so now we'll jump into the zoning code changes So within the land use table of the regional commercial a new land use type for retail cannibal cannabis establishments will be listed It'll will require a conditional use permit with specific standards that will be outlined now. We'll jump into those standards Under the conditionally use permit requirements a cannabis Retail license will be required and that's a selective process that goes through the chief of police um Next the within the zoning regulations is the there's a required distance from schools and churches under the state regulations There's a minimum 600 feet buffer required under our draft ordinance. We increase that to a thousand feet of A 1000 foot path of travel between schools churches and the youths Also, we implemented a 500 foot buffer between other cannabis retailers We're going to require independent access And specific sign standards And looking at sign standards There's I included three options. We actually I went out with the chief of police and we did we went around the county and looked at a couple of the newer establishments that have come in and In talking with them, they didn't seem bothered by the regulations within the county. They're really strict I think it's up to 12 square feet You're allowed to have one green cross And it's very limiting, but it didn't seem to be a problem when talking to some of the business owners. So So within the first option it would have to comply under our regular sign regulations So business name and logo would be fine Um a maximum of 50 square feet is allowed in the regional commercial zone Multiple signs would be allowed as long as it's under the 50 square feet and it complies with the sign standards And it would be an administrative approval And the pictures you're showing there are examples of they're just examples of what could be Yeah, but the um Yeah, there really isn't much really large signage to show you from other neighboring jurisdictions So what could be so under our code you could have a wall sign as well as them on well I guess you could have either a wall sign or a monument sign um But a wall sign could be up to 50 square feet if you if it has 50 linear feet of business so And on ours we're saying that they couldn't have like the marijuana leaf there They couldn't say can't have us on it. So under the option one they could so any um Any language or Sorry Any um language or Images could reference cannabis under option one. It just option one is that they just need to comply With this city sign code and any of these options can be amended That went up there that says star buds. Yeah, is that in san criss county? No, I just found this on the internet Yeah option two is this is a actually Located at the end of 41st on soquel and it's called Treehouse so with an option two you could have the business name There'd be no reference to cannabis through language. So this would comply the treehouse You could have one logo or a green cross and it wouldn't be limited to Um the logo or green cross that could reference cannabis A maximum of 20 square feet And it would require planning commission approval Under option three you could have the business name 15 square feet max this a little bit larger than what the county allows right now at 12 square feet Illumination during operating hours That's a standard. I believe the county has Planning commission approval would be required and this also states no reference to cannabis through symbols or language So I've summarized all three of these into a table and The next slide is just asking for You to select the sign standards that you would prefer and that staff recommends approval of Or a positive recommendation For cannabis retail establishments So I have one one question There's no reference in the beginning to a distance from residents and I know that Most of our central commercial zone Does not isn't adjacent to any residential uses But I seem to recall over on auto plaza that we are pretty close So i'm just wondering if we shouldn't mention In the in the code that it has to be a certain distance from Residential use as well as churches and schools So i'm going to pull up a map. There's around claire street. So if So the browns ranch is close That's also in the regional commercial. So that would Require addition, you know, I don't think browns ranch should be able to have a retail establishment If we had a buffer and also on the East side of 41st avenue All of the properties where mcdonald's is and whole foods They also back up to residential. So by if we were to include residential it would Really further limit where Cannabis retail sales could be So, um, since we're we're talking about the sign portion of it Um For me, you know, I I would like to make certain that we include something that you know Signage is other things that they put on the building as well Like if somebody decides to paint a big mural on the side of their building To advertise that it's uh, you know cannabis establishment or something like that So I don't know exactly how to come up without wording But I would like to, you know, have something that they can't put other things on the building Like murals or artwork So maybe I can short circuit this out. I mean I'll see how the other commissioners feel I'm not getting yet why we should treat this differently from any other Sign as a design issue Because of the product I mean, I would just apply whatever design Sign design rules we have to this just like any other business So do we want to hear from the public first because I think they may have some Concerns about that. I we probably should Open the public hearing before we go too much further Are there any other questions from commissioners? I'll wait till after we get public input. I have Um Was that the conclusion of that is the conclusion so staff would like direction on signs and the ordinance overall and then We suggest a positive recommendation to city council, but I did have a question katie about These options they Seems to be a distinction between the signage and the business are and the logo Um, is the logo is that included in the maximum size an option two an option three? Yes, it is. Okay, so if they have a cross It's going to be either limited to the 20 square feet Or the 15 square feet and you can further if you'd like to limit the size of the logo We could take that a step further as well. Okay. Thank you With that I'll Open this item up to the public if there's members of the public that would like to address the commission On the proposed Our cannabis ordinance, please step up Hi, good evening. My name is jenna shankman. I am a member of community prevention partners Which is a county wide multi-sector substance use disorder prevention coalition one of my colleagues was here last time and We on this issue are thinking about norms and just impact on on youth and That is why as it mentions in the report others jurisdictions have looked at treating some of the signs differently and upon looking at the different options. It seems that number three Is most in alignment in terms of limiting to the only the one exterior sign Not having any reference through symbols or language to cannabis, which we found to be really important in terms of Decreasing youth use and the sign shall not be directly illuminated except during operating hours and to keep it at the 15 square feet Which is the same as Watsonville, but larger than on incorporated county However, I do know that in other jurisdictions. They also do allow as you saw in the images A logo as long as it is within certain size constraints. So that seems Reasonable as long as the the logo doesn't have that then that reference to A cannabis image. So just thinking about these Sign restrictions to help limit kind of the proliferation and prominence that of these these images, which Just like other types of advertising can increase the the age Decrease the age the young person Starts to use cannabis or their perception of harm in just terms of normalizing it. So we do feel that having Some of these restrictions can just help You know set the that tone Thank you. All right. Thank you Anyone else please step up Good evening council. My name is Gina Cole. I work for a nonprofit agency in Watsonville Pajaro Valley prevention and student assistance we are members of the community prevention partners As well And we work we've worked very closely with Cpp community prevention partners on a number of different issues. We work on with tobacco We're very familiar with tobacco retail licensing We work with them with alcohol issues and as cannabis has emerged and the adult use Has passed and become A part of who we are as Californians now. We've we've done a lot of work around that. We work very closely with industry folk the two Signs that you showed tree house and kind peoples are both folks that we've worked with for the last How long Jenna like four months four three years two years. Yeah So industry folk here are Very much in tune with the I guess with public health needs And with public health concerns, especially around youth youth access and youth Influence We do a prevention program and part of our Part of our work as at PVPSA is prevention work in the schools in the Pajaro Valley Unified School District and We hear all the time, especially at the turn at the in january the kids were like Dude It's illegal now and we're like dude 21 So there is there are a lot of myths and misconceptions, especially with youth that they could walk right into a A dispensary they could walk right into a shop And get what they need. They do not realize that they must be 21 Youth are very very influenced by what they see and I I want to just point out And I was meant to run by the office. I've got this collection of good times Newspapers from about the last I don't know about six months And it's interesting to see we actually wrote a letter some of the early advertising in january Some of the Providers were actually showing marijuana leaves in their half their full page ad in the good times And we actually wrote a letter to the good times that wasn't published But we noticed that after that letter, you know stating this is a little bit over the top Most of their advertising has been toned down. They will Have gone to the green cross one of them has gone to instead of a marijuana leaf. It's a A five it's it's surfboards. It's green surfboards. It looks still kind of like a marijuana leaf But it's it's not so it's not as blatant because we do know that youth are influenced by That kind of advertising and so that's kind of our concern. We do recommend that you go with the sign three option To really not necessarily people know people already know what it is. They know what it's there for and it's again youth influence and Social norming we need to really be concerned about that. Thank you. Thank you Good evening commissioners. My name is Andrea Solano. I'm the project director for the tobacco education program at the health department. I'm here with a couple of colleagues in tobacco prevention. We work Very closely with community prevention partners to ensure consistency on Some of the policy work that we're doing And related to alcohol like Gina mentioned tobacco and now cannabis So you may or may not be aware of this, but recently we've seen an explosion in popularity among flavored tobacco products um, particularly in electronic flavored products like e-cigs, vapes and jewel And these all come in a variety of fruit and candy flavored flavors. They come in colorful and child friendly packages um recent studies Tell us that these are very popular among young people in fact over 80 percent of Of young people who ever used tobacco started with the flavored product So public health officials and policy makers across the state are working really hard to Reduce youth exposure to these products through sales and advertising restrictions Just this past Tuesday in san francisco. You may be aware they they they passed a complete ban on the sale flavored products It's the strictest ban in the nation So and the reason for that is because research tells us That advertising Signage the exposure that we have in marketing has an impact on our on our choices our consumer choices And exposure to tobacco marketing in stores is proven to increase tobacco experimentation among youths Youth and their youths overall youth youth And it's more in fact, it's more powerful than peer pressure and even family smoking rates So I just wanted to share some of that information what we know in tobacco And how we've shaped some of the tobacco policies and what's what's been effective in decreasing Youth rates with traditional cigarette products and now what we're doing with the new Electronic products and so we thank you for carefully considering the development of this policy and Taking in consideration How this may impact youth youths Thank you. Thank you See anyone else that would like to speak to the commission on this item Seeing none I'm going to close the microphone and I'll bring the matter back to the commission for discussion and action Maybe I'll jump in I'll jump in here first First thank you very much for coming and sharing your Knowledge and insight from the areas you work and I think it's something we have to consider I mean, I was born in Santa Cruz. I was raised in maybe rft rft But I I'm not that naive really But I'm not a big proponent of this whole this whole concept I understand that I'm not a city council member either and it's their choice But I think when we look at what we where we are here to discuss This area of zoning I don't see how it even fits in there If you look at we're going to discuss the capitol mall tonight We've had long plans with our general plan about the capitol mall area This commercial regional commercial area about having housing around it I talked with residents who live behind the Trader Joe's area Not happy about this didn't know about it. Not happy about These products being sold in their neighborhood. They already have a huge impact of people as a thoroughfare going From that west side into the mall area Homeless other people walking through foot traffic They think that would be a large impact if you look on the east side of 41st avenue You have the mobile home park and other homes back there behind the auto retail Personally, I don't see how it fits in But I I've done a little bit of Of research on this one We have for those who prefer to To use this material Katie put up a screen with a number of Areas already where it's available for people to purchase We're 1.7 square miles. I don't know that if we need to put one two three or four in in the city of capitol myself But if you look what's happening, we're fortunate because we have some people that stepped out before us Colorado and washington And and they're already seeing some some large concerns. Colorado springs 23% homeless increase since they Put this their marijuana in recreational marijuana available One thing that the Sheriff has noticed in both washington and colorado is they can't keep up with the black market supply of this And so with the tax that the cities are putting on it It actually is forced are made the black market even A larger area of concern because They don't have to pay the taxes and stuff. So I talked with our police chief He shared the concerns of what's happening in colorado in washington Biggest concern for our chief and and for me and I think for these ladies coming here tonight is our youth and You know, it's interesting. I I spent my career in public safety Um, and by the way, the green cross has been hijacked because that was a national safety council that I grew up with so They hijacked the green cross, but I had three medical marijuana Dispensaries in my district. I've been to stabbing shootings not on, uh, you know Basis maybe a couple times a year on a routine basis had the family Of one of the dispensaries, uh, kidnapped and held ransom I just for me, I don't think the zoning, uh, should be in in capitol and I'm not in favor of it, but I know I'm the minority probably so If it comes down to it, I think for me, uh, the only thing I could live with is option three All right, thank you tj So it's my understanding that, um, if we don't adopt some kind of ordinance like this then, um There's really no prohibition to Someone coming and opening up a, you know retail marijuana store in the regional commercial shopping center There right now it is prohibited. So that's because of a moratorium No in our, um chapter nine point six one retail sales are prohibited in capitol So this The steps we're taking here would be to allow retail sales within chapter nine point six one and amend the zoning code None of which would take effect unless it was voted in by the capitol of voters So right now it is prohibited But uh thumbs up or thumbs down So when this goes to city council, it will be It it will come with the retail sales ordinance, which um Has all the standards for how many would be allowed within the regional commercial What the for the retail? So for the license that will be approved by the chief of police That's a separate that's an amendment to chapter nine point six one Under the zoning purview is is just the regional commercial So tonight we would talk about where they could be located within the regional commercial and appropriate signs But when it gets to city council, they'll be looking at the license And what is required for a retail? um sales a retail Cannabis license and that will have all the more strict regulations of um Making sure that all best practices are followed that there's background checks that the correct Safety measures and cameras are in place within an establishment That's one more question We're talking about you know in the information that you gave us limiting them to 500 feet from each other If we have any estimate or idea about how many to go into the regional commercial district If we use that standard so the area of um 41st avenue from capitol a road to route one or to the city boundary is I think a little bit over 2000 Linear feet So in in that instance if you were to put one at bank of america and one every 500 feet You could possibly get four in along 41st avenue, but that's not including like browns ranch could possibly have one um the building at auto plaza drive where you come in the old kia building so there's and across the street So I would say you could at least get Probably seven or eight Along the corridor and I couldn't map it to get a better estimate But I the council had talked about one to three and their initial discussions Thank you Any other questions or comments on this item Then do you want to weigh in I'm gonna I'm gonna weigh in on this one because I Have sort of looked at both sides of it um The thing that makes it difficult for me is the The recreational part of it because I think that being able to have access to medical cannabis has become more and more of an of an acceptable thing and I Think that that's a good thing I too had a lot of several residents that Um indicated concern over having retail sales of marijuana close to their house for the reasons of I don't know if there are regulations like there are with cigarettes. You can't be within a certain You know distance of a of a business and be smoking cigarettes now that it's legal for adults to smoke marijuana That was a concern that I heard from them so if the Ballot measure gets approved by the majority of the people in the area um Then in my mind it It's a product like other products and I think that people have a right to have um The name of their business on Their sign and that he get treated the same way But at the same time we've learned from cigarettes that the the camel man attracts kids and so having the Right to design a logo could wind up Putting our youth in in harm's way the same way cigarettes did and look how long it's taken us to get a handle on that one so I understand Commissioner Newman's position that we shouldn't treat this any differently, but at the same time I'm much more leaning towards option three and limiting it or option two with a green cross and not a logo and no additional artwork On the building the sign Because you do you go to Santa Cruz and you see t-shirt print shops that have these great big murals that have been painted That give them A different kind of presence That could be very attractive to our youth and so I don't want to get into designing people's logos. The only way it seems to me to Prevent that from happening would be to limit it to a green cross and the name of the business Which isn't exactly one of your choices up there. So Those are my comments I'll go one more round just briefly It's all very interesting discussion, but I'm not seeing a lot of traditional planning commission issues here I think there are issues for the city council issues for the voters General policy society policy issues, but from a planning standpoint I'm having trouble seeing where we really fit in here So I'm I'm inclined to apply The same rules as we apply to any other business in terms of design and signage and facade and Etc, which are the things that we traditionally deal with I think that the whole signage question is a typical, you know, sort of planning role that We have For me, I would go along with option three with the idea that there would be no additional artwork allowed on the building And then As our community development director said it's the council who's going to deal with the other issues and and the police department I just wanted to tell you that I support option three as well So I would make a motion that because that we go along with option three with no additional artwork And because could I ask a question about? We had talked about this being in proximity of residences You know part of the standards was that it wouldn't require a thousand foot buffer between the Dispensary and any schools or churches Could that include any residents? So a thousand feet from any residents would Extremely limit where these could take place I was going to bring up that we do have a standard for drive-throughs now That is a hundred foot buffer from any residents So it would make it that you know browns Brown ranch could not have them the buildings such as that are set back on the east side of 41st could not Have them, but it would I think a thousand foot buffer maybe too broad too broad Okay, but if um, well, I would encourage the city council to look at maybe some buffer As it relates to residents as well And I I agree, you know, this is a bigger the bigger issue is for the city council to handle But I think it is one that I'll be able to give guidance and our opportunity to talk about the signage And just in short, I think it's important. I mean, this is a huge social change. And I think it's important to tread lightly I mean, this is still a federal scheduled one substance And I think those are the reasons why we want to be cautious and maybe protective Of you know, of you know, not only children, but other people in the society who maybe need some time To adjust to this and let's see what the impacts are and if we're going to do that, let's let's I mean, let's do it with some discretion And I think that that's the reason why I see ed About having different standards for this product as opposed to any other products And who knows over time Maybe all the issues will be worked out And we can be more free about it, but Um, yes Before we go forward with the motion, can I ask the motion maker one Just, um, possible for a friendly amendment The green cross is a standardized symbol that's going to become and more and more Capitola is an international destination. So one of the things that I've learned in my travels Is when you're looking for someplace Having that Simple symbol May help people identify locations. So I I'm just asking if option three With the addition of a green cross would meet with your That would be fine with me Then I could second the motion that you made with that Okay, and friendly amendment and does the motion include having The buffer at least a hundred foot a hundred foot buffer for residents So I'd like clarity if you'd like to encourage that if you'd like me to bring the message that you'd like it encouraged Or would you like a 100 I thought that we wanted to Send the message to the council that we thought they should Right. Yes Option three plus the green cross I could second that motion You know the discussion on the motion is a motion and a second So why don't we Have a roll call vote commissioner newman. No Commissioner smith. Yes commissioner welch. No Commissioner westman. Yes chairperson story. I the motion passes three to two Next note. I'll bring us to item 5d This is a design permit application to remodel the sears building at the capitol mall And to convert the space into three separate tenant spaces With updated exterior facades The retails proposed are sears tj max slash home goods And petco So we'll begin with a staff report, please Thank you chairman story and commissioners So as just stated the application before you this evening is for a master sign program and a design permit For the sears property at 4015 capitol a road. It also includes A phase two with development pads one along 41st avenue and one along capitol a road In this image, you can see how the tenants will be Divided within the proposal so the sears building will be divided to include a tj max and a petco And here you can see the two four thousand square foot pads that are proposed these are The phased approach to the pads they they have not submitted design permits or Um actual land uses tied to these pads, but they're conceptual and in discussions with the applicant They would be willing to put some conditions upon having to stub out the pads and have applications in process in order to do the The final Occupancy of the new tenant spaces none of that has been completely worked out So I don't really feel comfortable tying any conditions to it at this point But in one meeting with them there was discussions of yes, they would be amenable to Within the phased approach having conditions tied to getting into that second phase before occupancy of the first phase So a timeline was in the Staff report. I'm not going to go through every step of the timeline for you But the important items are back in december of 2016 the planning commission did do a conceptual review of this application In which you gave them a lot of feedback of how you would like to see The the plan revised for the future one of the major changes that did come in is the original conceptual review Did not include improving the seers site the seers building itself and now they've put together facade finishes on the exterior of of seers they've also updated the plans to include a couple bike lanes and the phase two Paths are there and also improvements along the facades um We've gone through two series of incomplete letters and we've had a few meetings um Back in february of 28th Of february 28th of this year. I sent out my second incomplete letter There were some emails in between the time that the Application was resubmitted explaining that we're in the process of adopting the new code that would pertain to this project um And That I would need more time. Unfortunately in that letter. I did not deem it incomplete so on may 9th of this year very recently the applicants attorney Sent in a letter stating that they'd like the application deemed complete under the permit streamlining act So in review of that, um, the applicant is correct that an incomplete letter was not sent out within the 30 days So therefore we um accommodated And worked hard to get them on the agenda this evening in the meantime another important factor is that the Environmental site assessment was provided to staff last december I sent that out for a second party review in which it came back Stating that the the work that was done was not for a full facility closure of the site It was to remove one joy one of the joys at the time And that permit no longer applied and to move forward with a full facility closure You have to go back to the county and have And pull the proper permits for a facility closure. So I informed them of the um That they still needed to Um complete the esa So we're here tonight reviewing their application and um due to the permit streamlining act and There there still is not compliance with the environmental review of this from the county and I'll get into that in a little bit So i'm going to give you an overview of what they are proposing. Um, tenant b would be pet coe 11 000 square feet Here's the exterior Of the proposed pet coe You can see that elements of the existing mall are kept within this proposal So the brick veneer on the corner stays and some of the stucco as it extends towards the Um tj max new elements are the entryway for the large entryway For the arrival at pet coe also, um new brick veneer along the base And they've added some benches and also a plant trellis. I believe it looks like a living wall The details of that were not specifically Called out in the plans, but as you can see the greenery on the wall. I believe is a trellis structure This is a two-dimensional Three-dimensional image of the pet coe so you can see how the new entryway projects off the building And the signage extends above the existing Top of wall The next is the tj max home goods. This is much larger in size at 40 000 square feet Again a large sense of arrival with the new entryway They're utilizing wood siding as finishes and stucco on the main entryway again Elements of the existing building will stay the existing stucco will be repainted They're carrying the brick veneer the new brick veneer accent across the building on this Facade and again the plant trellis idea some new benches They're going to tear out the existing planters and build new planters And then to the right of this will be the new seers So and here's a 3d image of tj max home goods So again, this is this entryway is what is about double the size of the pet coe entryway So seers will remain on the east side of the building And as you can see one thing I meant to point out before is but the new tenants tenants a and b will not be connected to the mall There'll be no entryway to go from those new new establishments to connect into the mall Here you can see the mall connection and how you could get through the seers to the mall the seers update The new facades are it's more of a contemporary look and a nice improvement here with Stucco being repainted but introducing repetitive elements such as the brick veneer the wood siding metal loavers and um Just different accents that are repeated and make a nice contemporary finish to the whole Exterior again the existing planters will be Ripped out and replaced in certain areas and benches are incorporated in some of the planters and this is the facade facing 41st avenue Within the application there was a master sign program the master sign program Under under our new code Signs are limited to 50 square feet plus a 25 percent allowance by The planning commission of course within a master sign program you are allowed to go beyond those standards So that's what this application is for is to be able to go beyond those standards The proposed master sign program for seers includes an 180 square foot east sign on the east side and 251 square feet on the south TJ max a sign is 200 square feet and the petco is at 75 square feet. So those exceptions would be Requested within their master sign program If the planning commission were to approve the signs under the master sign program I would request that um, I would suggest That similar to the previous application we looked at tonight that it not be an administrative review If a new sign were to come in at this size They should definitely always have the planning commission review and that's consistent with what occurred at king's plaza is that the larger signs for the Big box tenants would be reviewed by the planning commission So first we'll look at sustainability within a design permit under the this application is reviewed under the new code And within the design permit there's A different criteria a through s I'm only bringing up those criteria that we have found the application not to be in compliance with Rather than go through every item every criteria, so within sustainability as I mentioned The applicant Had previously Pulled permits to remove a joist within this year's location. That was under a 2014 and 2016 environmental site analysis The county acts as a contractor to the city within our municipal code. They are given the responsibilities of Of doing our environmental review For this type of work for a facility closure The county did not receive a full permit for a facility closure at sears when I spoke with the county Their understanding was that the new tenant may or may not Be an automotive use in the future So therefore the permit that they issued to remove the one joist was or hoist sorry was Specifically under the assumption that this this site could be utilized as an automotive site in the future so Once I had the third party review done and then in talking with the county again They said they would have to come back in for a full facility closure permit Knowing that they want this site to change to retail use As of yesterday, it's my understanding that the county had not heard from the applicants. So at this point It's my understanding unless they met with them today that no action had been taken on cleaning up the current outstanding issue with a facility closure permit And in order for us when when giving out the When going through the steps Prior to going through sequa We need the e s a is to be complete the environmental site assessments to understand what type of impacts are on the site And whether or not we could do a negative deck for this project a mitigated negative deck or an exception so That part the sequel review has been on hold until the full e s a Site assessments are completed. So without that. I was not able to remove for the sequel review Um drainage is another um item that Is not yet that is not in compliance with under the current proposal So within the municipal code section 3.16 the city is required Excuse me for one moment The city is required To make sure that all all Projects for development are in compliance with storm water regulations of the state so In doing the review we this was storm water was sent out to a third party and with the information provided The third party is not was not able to make findings that storm water is in compliance with the local um Municipal code section 3 13.16 which ties back to the state regulations So those two um Items are technical requirements. So within planning review, there are quantitative technical requirements and qualitative Just want to highlight to you for staff at this point with these two Quantitative technical requirements. We could not write up findings in Supportive approval of this project due to outstanding environmental issues. So Moving forward we'll go into more of the qualitative So under design permit criteria for um One is for pedestrian environment and that the primary entrances should be oriented towards invisible to the street in support of an active realm and an inviting pedestrian environment um this standard when looking at a mall there's The pedestrian environment also a mall isn't each property within a mall Isn't just a property that stands alone and has no connection to the neighboring buildings one of the main functions of a mall is that you can move from tenant space into the mall and it has a Relationship in which pedestrians can move through to the other properties Within this application the two new tenant space lack any internal connectivity to the seers and to the Further to the mall Under the design permit criteria, there's four applicable standards one for architectural style one for Articulation and visual interest materials and signs Since the application has come back in the articulation and visual interest They've done a lot of work there in terms of making the buildings more interesting adding those living walls um the materials on the Sears building are well coordinated The signs within the seers building kind of fit in with the seers building, but as I stated prior The petco and tj max signs It seems like the design is more about the signs than the architecture, but the seers building was um Finished with a contemporary style There's great articulation and visual interest as you move around the building And we're repeating the materials and really creating a sense of a an architectural style overall When we look at the tj max and the petco The architectural style to get into that is it should be compatible with the surrounding and built natural environment um It is an authentic implementation of appropriate established architectural styles and reflective of Capitalist coastal village character. I think this is the one standard that this really lacks The architectural style is really undefined. It's more of New you know really pronounced entryways to these two structures, but the You could not define what the architectural style is to this I don't or i'm able unable to other than it creates a great background for very large signs They've kept the same, you know the old mall Facades of the brick they're going to repaint the stucco But really it doesn't create a true architectural style. I think seers kind of did take should get To define a new architectural style so moving out of design We'll now talk about parking and access So the parking areas should be located and designed to minimize visual impacts and maintain capital's distinctive neighborhoods and pedestrian friendly environment Safe and convenient connections are provided for pedestrians and bicyclists so within one Um Connection that currently is is not well done and we talked about this. I think at the Conceptual review process, but there's a lack of connectivity that is safe for pedestrians between the seers and the target So during that conceptual meeting it was suggested to improve that connection that was not included in this application Um, what was included were two new bicycle Um Lanes one off of 40th avenue and one on 38th avenue to bring bicycles safely to the capitol a mall In the review of this application by the public works director and looking at our bike paths and Some of the rtc language for the future build out of the mall the um Public works director would like to see bicycle paths on both sides of each of the major Um entrances to the mall as well as a path that's connected going around the mall as that would be consistent with the general plan and In and capitol as goals for the future Open space in public places Within non residential development to provide semi public outdoor spaces such as plazas and courtyards Which help support pedestrian activity within an engaged in active and engaging public realm And then we also have land use policy tied to the general plan just talking about creating great place and Through your open spaces in public places So what the applicant has done here This is the facade along petco on the top You can see the image of the facade and below it is actually the improvements along the sidewalk So the light green area is the areas of new planters You can see there are three new benches proposed along this facade And an image of the wooden benches are on the bottom right And the new uh the sidewalks will be improved with colored concrete and pavers This is um as you move closer to sears to the east so again colored concrete and pavers are proposed pavers in the entry ways um New planters the existing planter where the corner tucks in is going to be replaced with a new planter And this is the front of the sears building facing 41st avenue. So again new planters pavers and colored concrete along the sidewalk so with that i've gone through the The design elements of this and the design standards. We've um talked about the technical Standards of this permit Also during the review back With the conceptual review and I included it in the staff report. There Many references to the capitol and mall within the general plan and really it focuses on making a place that An experience for people in the future through placemaking and the public realm so And in in approving a design permit, there is a requirement that you make findings that um a design permit is in line with All the criteria of the design permit as well as the municipal code Which um we've got technical violations with our environment with environmental health and with stormwater and making Findings that it's also in compliance with the general plan. So staff is recommending that the planning commission deny the design permit Application and the master sign program based on the fact that we cannot make findings for the design permit criteria It's and the technicalities that it's not in compliance with the environmental health um Chapter 2.20 and it is also not in compliance with our stormwater regulations contained in chapter 1316. So Thank you and with that that concludes my presentation. Thank you, katie. Are there questions from commissioners on the staff report? I have one quick question. Um I went back and I looked at the the concept review that we did and one of the Points that you brought up then was the width of the sidewalk and how it was it was a nice wide pathway um I didn't see a lot of detail on the planters and how big they are but were you able to get a kind of an assessment that the The sidewalk is wide enough in those places to accommodate The planners that they're suggesting and still be a wide pedestrian friendly sidewalk You know, you know, I did notice that some of the planners Do tend to come out quite a ways and areas And I I don't know the exact measurements in the in those areas and what the width is So maybe we could ask the applicant this evening for what those measurements are I was just noticing that in your presentation that some of the benches are turned Which makes me think they come out farther than I had previously. Thank you Very question. Yeah. Yes, sir. So on the master sign program. This is a master sign program just for this property Correct. And is there a master sign program for the rest of them all? There is for the directional Um Signs through the mall. There is a program for that As I recall a few years ago, we approved monument signs for the mall And I think it might have included sears on the monument signs Correct. So this is going to impact if we approved this and the city council proved that it would impact that Our decision in some way, I think So for the mall, I think it is just the the monument signs along the mall. So I think that would still be in place But as a separate master Permit for multiple mall tenants. I brought that up at the time. Whose master permit is that? It's all the properties including this one, which doesn't So I'm not sure where that leaves us, but this is just for Um, the wall signs for this building Yeah, and We don't know if it's the same or different from the requirements for the other buildings in the mall Yes, I don't know if it's um This there there are no there's not one master sign program for the exterior buildings like target has had their own permits Issued I know when One of the rest two of the restaurants that recently came in had their own Signs approved. So there is not an overriding master sign program I Analyze how this proposed master sign program relates to the signs that other properties in the mall Have had approved You know, it's similar in size. I did um I looked at the recent master sign program that was approved at king's plaza And I believe one of those signs goes up to 170 square feet that was approved um for the grocery store So There are quite a few larger signs. I want to say the orchard supply went up to 120 square feet But I did not include that analysis in the report. I'd be happy to do so in the future Thank you And I think ultra wasn't ultra one that we we passed it had its sign is larger than When ultra came in as an independent right? I think that was one that was larger Any other questions from commissioners Kidya, I had a question about at least the tech note of deficiencies Could those be handled through a conditional Approval of the project at this point Stormwater, I believe could Because stormwater, but they wouldn't be able to move forward with a building permit without stormwater, right the unknown environmental impacts tied to um The The facility closure really I I wouldn't feel confident about attaching Any sequa related findings that there's no environmental impacts tied to this property Through a condition Having the full site analysis and Knowing that they've come into compliance with a facility closure Thank you With that I'll open it up to The applicant and of course anyone else in the audience that would like to speak to the commission on this item. Yes Thank you, and good evening commissioners. I want to first thank The planning staff katie. I also want to thank the city attorney for moving this matter forward As you know, we've been at this for some time. We originally started this in april of 2016 And we've been working in earnest for the last two years To try to refine the application to try to answer staff questions Obviously based on the staff recommendation. It's at least staff's view that we're still not there We do think we've made a lot of progress On this on this project. I think the one Item that I'd like to open with And by the way, I'll mention that the full team is here tonight. We're here to answer your questions We're here to Be helpful and informative to try to refine this and make sure that everybody's comfortable as we move forward Um Could you just state your name for the record? Yes, my apologies. Yes. My name is david weight and I am land use council for the applicant I thank you. Thank you um, I think the one item that Um, there's a little bit of the elephant in the room so to speak Because it's sort of has come up at every meeting we've had on this project Which is the relationship to this project to a larger mall redevelopment plan the city has a lot Invested in a long-term plan a long-term vision for the redevelopment of the capitol and mall And suffice is to say that the city's own plans its general plan its Vision plan for the capitol the mall all recognize very specifically the incremental nature of how these projects have to proceed and At least by one indication. This is a fairly straightforward application We're demising the seers property into three tenant spaces and we're putting new signage up for the new tenants And then and that signage as you know for a lot of retailers is is somewhat formulaic There's not a lot of flexibility. So we're kind of trying to work with that format for these tenants But the point is that it's a fairly straightforward application from the standpoint of what we're doing We're not we're not changing the footprint. We're not building new buildings We're not adding, uh, you know major amounts of new infrastructure These are demising the existing space so that we can put these properties into productive use It will generate rent. It will generate sales tax revenue for the city All of that is a good thing for everybody. So Fairly straightforward application But again, I think the the the elephant in the room is you know, how does this relate to the long-term vision the long-term plan? With respect to the development of the capitol and mall or the redevelopment of the capitol and mall And the answer is that when you sort of hoist that on the part of Of seritage to say how does this plan Relate to and how will it be consistent over time with a long-term redevelopment plan? The answer is we don't know because there is no plan And the problem is for us we when we approach marylone guyer and we say we're moving forward We've got to put our property into economic use. We have to make an economic return on this asset We can't anticipate their timing. We can't anticipate what they might do now. Let me say this We absolutely need to cooperate with them on whatever the long-term plan is. There are reas in place As you know from the staff report. We went to marylone guyer. We got their approval They have consented to every element of this plan both from a design and a facade standpoint They have no issue with it. In fact, they support it So probably the best evidence in terms of that long-term consistency and that long-term vision Is marylone guyer's conclusion that nothing that we are doing is inconsistent with what they may want to do long-term So I want to just state that as sort of an outset issue because I know that The planning commission the city council your city manager is thinking long term about this project You're thinking of you know about what does a new retail model look like? We're in a major sort of shift in terms of retail the retail environment in this country How does this project relate to that? How will how will we potentially lock ourselves in from doing something that we may want to do later? And the answer is you won't the answer is you still maintain flexibility And I think it's important to quote and I hate quoting in front of commissioners, but I'm going to just Do it because I think it's important because it really lends support for what we're saying The the general plan policies really do Encourage a phase approach to redevelopment of the mall and that's in your land use plan l u81 In your policy plan Also in the vision plan vision plan states that it's necessary to envision and permit short-term improvements That do not fully achieve the ultimate vision that again is in your vision plan Specific policy 1.9 allow property owners to make modest improvements that will not conflict with the long-term Vision for the property policy 2.3 a phased approach to redevelopment of the mall And again, this is all in your plan and then even with your most recent zoning code update Which I'm not going to spend a lot of time on on the legal issue of whether we think this project should apply to that Our view is that the old zoning code should apply because we were deemed complete before the The new code went into effect. That's our our legal position, but I don't want to dwell on that But what I do want to say is even under your new plan your new plan specifically states that major redevelopment of the mall May require a rezone plan development specific plan development agreement a similar process We all know how much time that takes it takes two years just to do a facade improvement and a demising Think how much time it's going to take with a with a long-term plan with development agreement So those take a lot of time So I want to just state that at the outset that we don't believe that anything we are doing will in any manner compromise The city's long-term vision for this asset you maintain that flexibility These are multiple property ownerships. You've got macy's you've got the coals you've got marillone geyer You've got seratidge and sears So you've got these multiple interests that are all aligned to make a successful mall And we all have to work together over time But that that shouldn't mean we should stop now we have to keep these assets Moving we have to keep them productive. We have to keep economic returns coming off of them Okay, so enough on that topic. I want to just talk Briefly about the master sign program. Katie is correct We are applying for a master sign program that allows us the flexibility to go beyond the hard limits of One linear foot excuse me one square foot for one linear foot into your code and we're requesting that Katie acknowledge that our sign is in many respects consistent with other retails in terms of size and scale I can have our architect talk about some of the more Design elements that have been incorporated into the sign element. I want to talk about the the hazardous waste issue for a moment because We obviously The first time by the way we received the letter from the county was when it came in the staff report We hadn't seen it previously even though it was issued on on the 17th But apparently that was issue that at Katie's behest because she contacted them and said what's up with with site closure A phase two environmental site assessment, which is in your packet was completed for the evaluation of the contamination at the former auto bay facility That phase two investigation included the first permit For the removal of the lifts and then it also included a very extensive subsurface soil investigation for all the other lifts Which were subsequently removed We got a closure letter from the county after that phase two was submitted to the county Our assumption was we're closed. We're done. We don't need to do anything further now It appears and again, we're investigating this. We're trying to figure out What the miscommunication was it appears that The county is now saying that we needed a permit to apply for those subsequent closures and We're going to take a look at that. We're not Saying we're we don't have to get that permit if we have to get that permit We will get that permit and we will get the site properly closed under the regulatory oversight of the county We're committed to doing that. We have to do that. We have to do that for our tenant We have to do that for a host of reasons But at least I think the the commission needs to know that in terms of the timing A very robust phase two analysis was done soil samples were taken of all of the the beds from the from the lifts And that result concluded that the only contamination issue was the original lift that was removed And that was remediated fully remediated and that's all documented and closed by the county So we're going to look at that issue On storm water I also want to just simply state that you know, I think Again, we're not making major improvements. We're not altering the infrastructure or the drainage on the site I think the trigger there is because we're we're we're doing the pavers And that that fact that we are touching the pavers is apparently triggering New BMPs with respect to storm water management that one I think is katie acknowledges if we have to condition the project on full compliance with BMPs We are willing to move forward on that basis I'm going to now sit down and I want to bring up other members from our team to answer specific questions on design Pedestrian access walkability Those sorts of issues because I think the architect And and others on the team are the best suited to answer those questions But obviously if you have more questions, I'm here and would happy happily answer those questions. So thank you Yeah, if he's got a team that wants to speak I can save them to the end of Okay, well, maybe if you go ahead and pose your questions, then they know who to send up and respond to Okay I have five questions. They're pretty straightforward The first one was on the pads that are On the plan identified as phase two I couldn't I'm not really good at reading construction plans. So some of these questions may be pretty elementary But um, I didn't see sidewalk improvements from capitol road to the sears building Um, and from 41st to the sears building and I don't know if they're included in there And I just missed them, but that was one of my questions Just uh, we're going to answer that question preambular answer We're moving forward tonight with the demising and the facade improvements for the sears building as katie alluded to we're going to come back on those pads This is going to be a later a later phase. This is phase two, but we're happy to answer your question Hi, my name is craig shin with adc on the architect and I have got the flash drive That's got the whole package. Could I plug it in here and we can Look at shield exhibits No, and if you just want to say yes or no, that would be at this point simple enough for me. Okay So are there sidewalk there is yes, there's sidewalk improvements That come all the way in from the street to the one on capitol. It does the one on 41st does not Okay, but we enhance that with outdoor patio seating outdoor plaza A nice little note on the corner that brings you into an existing Path of travel that takes you into the mall property Okay, um And obviously it's a it's a second thing, but I was wondering if There's any kind of a target in your mind about phase two. Is it is it tied to some time after phase one finishes or is there any general Good evening. Blake carroll with cypress equities development manager for uh, seratage So as far as what we had envisioned for phase two The way that it's drawn on the plans currently it's basically for the pad improvement itself um to where You know, we we would basically install the complete the site work along with the permit for the building construction the building permit for the ti essentially for both the The peco and tj max home goods so We will be required to start that work and make the financial Uh Improvement into those pads to where Then I mean in the future here in the coming months Not too long after we start design for and construction documents for the ti We'll come back in with full construction document plans and building elevations to get The ultimate design for phase two Uh to approved so it it doesn't include the full plans and scope for those pads right now But So we would be coming back in to get that finalized So you're looking at a matter of a year or two years? Not even that long. I mean we're we're talking, you know, I mean We would it's it's in our best interest to Have that project those pads be a continuous project to where we don't do the site work and then let it sit for A long period of time it would be in our best interest to complete that site work and have it flow straight into Vertical construction for the pads. So Really these pads were added as To comply with the overall general plan at the request from staff and and city and you know, we're Happy to do it. Um, you know just trying to figure out the obviously the immediate goal to get the approval for The retentancy for the Sears box We view this as a condition to be able to to do that and This was the first step of that phase two So Front of the Sears building come down and there's an entrance into off of capitol a road and you have one of your phase to add there So i'm confused about whether the new sidewalks that's going in there with the bike lane Is that part of phase two or is that part of phase one? Phase one the bike lane would be part of phase one, which means you'd have to move the sidewalk There's there's two bike lanes off of capitol the one To the there's one on the closer to the corner by the bank building. There's one Further away from that. There's so there's two coming in One off at 38th and then the one right next to be a bank So those new sidewalks would go in as part of phase one So yes one would so the one on 38th would be part of phase one The the one on 40th is part of phase two That would tie in with the site work that we would be doing for that pad okay One is phase two and one is phase one for the bike lane, but but the sidewalk That doesn't exist doesn't exist on 40th today. There is a sidewalk that goes in on 38th Bank correct, okay just So any site okay got it And if I might add that's part of the pedestrian experience when you go in there because right now it's double lanes of parking So you're actually backing in to what is currently 40th 40th So by adding the bike lane and adding the sidewalk it's actually making it safer than what it would be If you just put a bike lane in there with the parking the way it stripes So we've adjusted a lot of that area there to make it a lot more pedestrian friendly So when you're coming in off of capitol, you get as close to the Sears building the close to the malls you possibly can Without interfering on the greater side of the parking right and I guess my my point in asking the question was I thought that's what I was understanding That sidewalk which is going to be a main a major improvement in our pedestrian experience Isn't in phase one. It's in phase two And there is enough room to put it in and the bike lane Where you you've drawn it and you guys have looked at that. Okay In our conceptual review meeting we talked a lot about the gathering places and specifically that corner Where there's currently a great big planter by the Sears building and When I was looking through the packet There was a reference to that planter and it said To refer to a 13 r for the planter dimensions and the landscaping detail and there was no a 13 r So i'm wondering if You have any detail on what's going to happen in that corner Did that get a lot of focus or It did so we actually have certain nodes going through the building All the way around starting from the left corner where petco is We have our first node there with new planning new new benches and then as you walk along there's These new nodes every 150 feet something like that 100 feet So you've got as you're walking along you can see where your next spot's going to be whether you're going to park Right there or sit down or there's going to be new enhanced landscaping So we really created that so on that corner where we've enhanced it We've added new paving and if you look at sheet a 4.2 it shows kind of a diagram of that And the idea was to create it where you're going to have bench style seating So as you're sitting there waiting for people or joining other people There's activities that you can sit there adding in a Better shade tree that provides better shape for the pedestrians as they're in that area Okay, so you're talking about the area right along the front of the road Okay, and then past that as you look through there you can you can see there's Either enhanced paving or there's new planters that are proposed So there's always something else happening and everything is is designed to be at a pedestrian scale So we don't have really contextual or really highly textural elements really high up in the air We have them lower where people can see them and experience them So the pavers the wall the the wood that's on the side the the stone that's now on the side where you can touch it All the planters are are cedable so you can sit there. So the whole idea is to create You know really a pedestrian friendly environment as you go through even though it's only three stores and three Three main tenants as you're walking through there You really get a different feeling as you're going through from the tenants From which is to the void spaces which are now enhanced with paving and planters and green screens So there's always something happening. It's not big blank walls like there is now And it's low And that leads right into the next question the the material the the green walls behind the benches I couldn't find any reference to what those really were and and tonight I signed Katie's presentation that that we think those are trellises. Can you can you tell us what those are? Yeah, so it's a it's really meant to be a green screen. So it's going to be If you've seen them traditionally they are a mesh of metal that the the grow The the type of plant material that grow and they move will go in between there and get forced to be in that area And then we just We just landscape and prune them to stay in that square area. Okay, so it's meant to grow through this not a Not a vine that's going to crawl up a wall It's actually in a cage and the cage helps direct where it's going to go So you don't have it coming up over the building and going sideways It's really meant to be manicured and and kept in a certain space Okay, I'm not familiar with those. It sounds like a pretty beautiful thing. Yeah, they're nice because they can they can they control it better Okay, last question And I think I'm right when I say the north side of the Sears building Which is on the main entrance into the mall. So if you walk straight in I didn't see anything On that wall. Is that wall just going to stay the way it is or is it going to? Yeah So that that wall Yeah, it's that little section right there. So Our building is actually right on the property line. So we're not able to actually build anything over it So what we're doing is enhancing it with different paint In in areas where we can add other material we can do that, but it's very very there's no room So we weren't enhancing that like we were everything else because we just don't have the space to do that Are the windows going to be opened? So there's some transparency there or are they going to be covered up as I mean right now it's it's a pretty ugly scene walking down Yeah, I I don't know what Sears plans are for that And those are my questions. Thank you So with that you get want to go ahead and conclude your presentation and Can I um just go through a few of katie's points that she brought out? Certainly. Okay So this is this is a great one just to leave up here. So the connectivity to the mall As we discussed in previous meetings It's impossible to get TJ max or petco to get access to the mall because where sears is you have to get to their loading dock Which is on the far left hand side. So at one point we discussed Putting loading docks in a different area and the answer was no We don't want loading docks off of capitol or off of 41st So the only option is to keep it where it is in that back truck loading dock corridor And once we do that it kind of eliminates Just by the design of it getting direct access to it But what we did create is this pedestrian friendly zone starting from petco All the way through and around that space. So while we don't have direct access to the mall We have we do have great And a great experience going around the property to get into the mall The connectivity to get to target We discussed in in numerous meetings. It's it's impossible to do now because of ADA It's not the slope and cross slope is too steep where if we provide a path there We're going to get hit with Accessibility issues because you just can't get there. It's physically impossible To get there with the grading that we have now So we can't connect that because once we connect it we have to provide Accessible path to travel there and we we frankly can't do it physically. It's impossible And then the the parking areas. I don't remember I wrote that down But you had a comment on the parking areas In your your presentation I know that I had Quested just a sheet that would Lay out exactly your calculation for parking. Oh, okay So and number them for me because there's a lot of property lines that overlap So on the cover on the cover sheet we have a parking matrix So if you if you zoom in it's kind of in the center Yeah, right To the right you'll see parking calculations and so what we did because we're really looking at three different ways to To get the parking one is what's required by code two is what Is required by the rea and the rea is actually more stringent than what your code is And then what we're providing and what we're providing with phase one and phase two So if you go to the very bottom With the two pads, even if we did them as a restaurant, we still have we still have ample ample parking to provide So Is what you're asking that we need to go through and label every stall on there or does this suffice with for what you need so in my In my second incomplete letter I was simply just asking for a site plan to have each Your numbers identified on parking spaces so I could see what with some of the property lines Kind of bisect parking spaces So just so that I could second check the work and make sure that you have Exactly what was shown in these tables, but I don't want to get into complete and incomplete items I just think we could do that as a we could have that as a condition Right, it doesn't have to be something I was unable to determine based on the plans that were submitted Then open space and public space was one of your comments as well And I think if you go to the site plan, we've enhanced as much open space as we can in phase one Phase two we provided a lot more open spaces were the two 4,000 square foot pads are going to be we have outdoor plazas. We have outdoor seatings We have connectivity from the public sector all the way through the property So we've provided as much open space public space that we can do on a really tight site like this I think that's that's it for me. Thank you Well, maybe I had a question Also, I mean concerning access and connectivity Just what's the rationale for being part of a mall? There's no access to the mall from the interior Of these premises Yeah, what's that? Yeah, it's it's really because of where Sears is With Sears being where they are getting to the loading dock it prohibits us from getting access to there And you see this happening I would say in a lot of malls Across the country where these big boxes are getting redeveloped and redemised where they only have access from the outside Whether it's a restaurant or a gym Or, you know, a tj max a lot of those no longer have access directly to the mall because they the way they operate and the way they brand And the way they do their their operation is only from one entrance So it's it's traditional to see this happening as these big boxes get turned over Okay, thank you Anything further We're here to answer any additional questions Thank you. Thank you Well, is there any other member of the public that would like to address the commission on this item? Seeing none, I'll close the microphone But recognizing that there may be more questions for the applicant. Yes, Katie I would like to make a clarification that stormwater with the phase one phase two pads would have to incorporate That is part of this proposal the phases And under sequel we cannot review a project In pieces you must look at the whole project so for stormwater Stormwater has to address these future phases as well as we would be looking at The development and circulation and traffic also regarding that to do our sequel analysis I I have a question Given that Can we or can the applicant Do the appropriate suffers to meet sequel but that change in the phase two in other words I don't know that if we I don't know that we really know what we want in that whole phase two component yet so can that Can they meet and make it compliant with sequel today and then change that in the future They could build in stormwater improvements To bring it into compliance knowing where those buildings are going to be cited If I might A little bit of history on the phase two pads. They were really never part of this project They were requested to be included in a subsequent application by staff But they are not part of what you are proving Without the pads and without Katie and staff's acknowledgement that stormwater is potentially impacted by the development of those pads If they're not part of this project, which they really shouldn't be considered part of the project The project is exempt from sequel There's a very clear exemption Your city attorney can advise you on this with respect to existing buildings demising facade improvements This project is exempt under sequel And so my recommendation is take the pads out the pads should not be part of this project They were included at staff's request Faithfully by the applicant But you're not approving anything tonight with respect to the to the outpersals So let's just let's just not approve anything Take those out and this project should be deemed exempt under sequel Very simple You know, mr. Wait One of the things in this process is you you brought up you you read our general plan you brought up some of the components of That are expected in our general plan. That's a phase process. I get that we take small increments I get that but part of it is that vision and and so what we asked for it wasn't staff It was this planning commission asked for that vision. What is a long-term? Plan for this and that's that's why those pads are there today because we wanted to see Where that's at and I think part of that also goes back to this How we work together because I think communication is a big part of Where we're going with the vision you you folks have 200 plus Sears projects They throughout the nation that you're you're working on this 40 of them in california This isn't new to you. I this you have these projects going through every mall. So while it may be new to us I guess we want to depend a little bit on Your experience of this process, but some of that takes I hate some trust in that process And so I think for I can speak for me I wanted to see do you have a vision to help us meet our general plan Because this is what our general plan was was calling for so I want to help you get through this first phase Me as an individual I can't speak for my other commissioners up here And that concept that vision of the phase two is is part of that moving forward through the process So however we can work out sequel we have an attorney you you're apparently have this experience I think that's great, but We need to see that I need to see that to feel comfortable and move forward And that's a fair comment and I think for that reason in good faith It was included so that you do have some sense of what the long-term vision is But again, there's no approval with respect to that component It's really provided to give you the roadmap down the road for what is to come and as Blake alluded to it will come But right now we're trying to get these tenants Approved and get them in these spaces and as to that That project that is really before you it is exempt under sequel And I think I would hope that the staff and city attorney would concur on that on that view We'll trust him to figure that out. Thank you And if I may um, I just want to express that I I think I personally have as much interest in Seeing something Happened there sooner than later I'm no longer interested in tying this to malone geyer and waiting for them But with that said From your viewpoint What's What's the difference of whether we were to approve this project with conditions that have been identified by staff? Which you would have to meet in any event Or to deny the current application without prejudice and have you to continue to work with the staff To resolve those questions And I would personally express I would like to see this move along as quickly as possible And to have us Because we all have the same interest here And to have us try to work together To make this happen And so I mean from your perspective. What's what's the distinction here? What's the best thing that we could do to move this project forward And acknowledging that we have these deficiencies currently that are that are going to have to be addressed Yeah, I think you put your finger on it. They're at this point. We've been at it for a couple of years now We think the time is right to move this project forward We think that unquestionably staff can make the sequel exemption That's required by law unquestionably. We can condition the project. This is a discretionary approval Planning commission has the discretion to condition the project based upon clearance from the county on environmental If there is in fact bmp that needs to be incorporated into stormwater You can impose that condition as well If there are any other conditions that you want to see implemented before building permits are issued You absolutely have that discretion, but that's moving the project forward To to say no, we're going to deny you start over come back again file a new application That's number three. We're now at number three application number three. Let's move forward Let's move forward with what we have and if if the planning commission is is concerned about items that have been brought up by staff That feel require additional attention Let's Let's put those conditions in and we will deal with those We will ensure that they are complied with and staff will will make sure that we comply with those conditions Before we can get building permits issued, but that's moving the project forward, which is really what we're asking for this evening Are we going to do our commission thing or Yeah, we will uh, I yeah, I think that we're done We were just at this point posing questions to the applicant They were gracious to answer them. And so If there are no further questions from commissioners, uh, to the applicant I will bring this back and We'll You know discuss it and take some action So who wants to start It's not like you already started For me, um This project never was about, uh, you know working Completely with Malone Geyer. This project for me Was the first project that was coming in that related to our new general plan that we had adopted and You know sort of the goals and visions that we had in that general plan and I agree with commissioner waltz. I thought when we had the conceptual review That uh, you know, one of the things that we talked about was You know, not just approving something on this one building But what was going to happen on their entire property? That was going to move forward The the goals and desires that had been outlined in our in our general plan and um You know for for me, I think there has been You know some tremendous improvement as far as You know the seers building itself and how it looks Um As far as the petco and the tj max it seems to me that both of those are you know a long way away of From as far as a design standard from You know tying this all together and doing a major improvement Um, I asked the question about you know the sidewalks and the connectivity because again to me Um, you know putting in some new sidewalks and the bike lanes and that Should be part of any project that's going to go forward now um I do have some some great concerns About some of the technical aspects of the project I mean county environmental health in my opinion is basically another department within the city of capitol Because we contract with them to do that kind of work for us And um, you know an applicant came in and said well, you know, we haven't Got any necessary permits we need to get from your public works department to Do something I think we would be quite concerned about that and for me that there's no difference between them Clearing up the work that they need to do with county environmental health before they go forward um I I have You know concerns about You know the environment and sequa and how all of that's going to work and they say Oh, well just approve this little part of the project You know sort of trust us that when phase two comes in then we'll we'll work on that when You know, I thought we were going to get an application coming in that was going to be an application regarding You know some future improvements that were going to happen on the whole site that would work to You know achieve the goals that we wanted to have in our general plan. So You know, I I want to hear from my other commissioners, but at this point for me You know, I don't see this being at a place where you know, I I would be willing to say You know, I would recommend approval of this tonight with conditions because Frankly, you know, I I think there Are some some issues that need to be worked out You know the planning commission does have the option of You know denying a project without prejudice Which means that they could you know come back in any time with it Or You know, one of the things I I would like to find out from the staff because in our new zoning regulations Which you know, I'll let the attorneys fight about but I believe our new zoning regulations do apply to this project You know, we're supposed to have some sort of specific plan or something to To work with even on on this site. So You know, I For me, there there are still so many unanswered questions that that I would be Hard pressed to approve this with conditions tonight I'm gonna With your permission agree with a lot of the things that you said and add to a little bit When we did the conceptual review we talked about Redevelopment versus remodeling and we talked about the Sears building Yes, we want to see how it all ties into the overall but Given that we're not going to get there with that if I saw the building being redeveloped instead of Neufocides on one side that don't match the beautiful new facade on the other side And one whole side that's in a main corridor of entry into the mall. That's not not really being touched Then I would think that We were being heard in Wanting the development to move forward towards our vision doesn't all have to be done today but the connectivity issue is a is a big one in our mind and If you look all over the state of california Pedestrian friendly Is critical to The economic development In different areas. I was watching something on seaside on the news just tonight before I came to this meeting about seaside You know redoing their downtown and the pedestrian friendliness of the area is critical because that's what people need I went and I I drove by the sears building today and I looked hard at all of the different elements and I tried to figure out How I could approve The the first phase of the plan and I I just can't get there from the pedestrian perspective I know that the truck egress and ingress is a big deal And I looked at the plans and I understand the Um what you said about the grading and I hadn't hadn't really thought about that between target and the sears building But people do walk that way and by taking out the curves and and the Um the bulb out landscaping that's there It's actually going to become more dangerous because people coming out of that Parking building up by target are going to come down that way and there's going to be a much wider spot for Vehicle traffic to come peeling down there and people do use that corridor to get from place to place um There was a guy out there walking as a dog and I thought what what's going to happen when all of that um that Corners off of that parking area is gone and it's all just flat concrete It's going to be it's going to be scary and I think it's going to introduce some pedestrian issues that we don't have today So it actually doesn't take us towards our vision In that arena. It takes us a step back um We were clear about the opportunities of working In a phased approach and independently and what I was really hoping we would see would be a an approach a plan that Had a phased approach that didn't just throw two two pads out there because that's what we want to see But that actually Showed us in the design in the in the application that There was a plan and a thought of how we were going to move forward um And our vision is really clear we were we're not saying anything different tonight than we said in the conceptual review And that was even discussed prior to that The architectural Features Have made a lot of improvements But I don't see the gathering place. I don't see that people are going to come to that planner and hang out on the curb I that's not what I was looking for I was looking for a Maybe a little cafe kind of environment of seating chairs where if you go over and you look at um Some of the different areas in town that have sidewalk environments that are attractive that do bring people in they're not Planners that I can't even see how They're going to be seating areas So what we've communicated is that we want the mall area to create a sense of place A place to gather a place to shop a place to eat And the sears building Can do all of those things by itself It just in this In this application. I don't see it doing those things um The goals and policies The revisioning plan all of those are really clear They may include facade changes, but they shall not conflict with the ultimate direction And unfortunately in this case The the pedestrian element is in my mind in conflict So I don't know how I could support this one tonight. I don't know what kind of conditions I would have to put on it Um to change that The the technical ones I could trust staff to write some conditions for those if they saw their way through to do that But from a design perspective If marlon geyer didn't exist on this planet, I'd still have a really hard time supporting this project Thank you blendi. Do you think dj? Was hoping my fellow commissioner then would go first, but What the heck i'll jump in there. I always have something to say um I I think uh, it's uh, the design review if we're just talking about design first has come tremendously along ways and More than I think just putting lipstick on a pig. I think for me um It's it's in the ballpark Now I always confer with my wife, believe it or not because I want to have a happy home And uh, she's not wild about the pet gold colors or the pet gold walls to be honest with you She's not so she concurs with some of our fellow commissioners here, but um I'm all for getting this project going personally. I want to see the tenants in there I don't want to see that that area you go through there now. It's a blighted industry. It's just terrible to go through there um I don't have a big issue with the pedestrian part There's only one way access in the mall currently is through the sears building So that interconnect ability if you if you Again, I mentioned I have a wife and I have to do some traveling that which means I have to do some shopping The new environment isn't this indoor mall. In fact, if you went to the um Guire Malone Preview that whatever we called that which by the way was really disappointing And you can put that on the record. Um that That's what people want people wanted that building opened up They don't want to see that closed-in wall. So I think the outdoor experience. Uh, I think the sidewalks I think what we're asking is you the way I see this is you have Basically your hands tied as far as the building. I I don't think As a city we can ask you to tear down and start from scratch because we could really do something there Um, I think given what you had excuse me what you have I think in some tenants in there is a great deal I think the vision of the phases Are appropriate You know in the in your back of your Plans there you have some sketches of the bistros and stuff and I I think those are appropriate type things I didn't see an in-and-out burger in there, but um, I saw some things I think are appropriate for Those phases for me it gave the vision I guess for me it I I have no problem moving forward personally with with this project under some conditions Uh, obviously the usa and the bmp's are something that we we have to resolve I don't see those as being overwhelming. I don't seem to stop block. I just think that something has to be resolved Um, but what I would like to see Um, I think um one of my commissioners fellow commissioners brought up this specific plan concept And I know you guys are involved in the new park mall Which I think has the same type of concept that we have a way of moving forward through these other phases Uh With more people involved than than you guys just throwing pictures at us and maybe that's done through city staff I don't I don't really know, but um, I think we need to have more discussion there Um What else can I talk about? Uh, we talked about the architectural style. I don't I don't know how you make it I'm sure someone can make it for you. My wife thinks she can make it prettier for you But I don't have a big heartburn. Petco is petco It's got some certain colors with it how you design that I don't know um that that Routing to get the trucks through there. I think is is uh, it handicaps us as far as What we do with pedestrian thoroughfare to the target Well, we talked about the elevation I I I would think looking at getting those trucks Through the 38th entrance around in front of petco and around the corner It seems to me we could open up an entrance in between to car and the the parking structure and make that an easier thoroughfare for Um deliveries and stuff, but that's just something that's on the side um I talked about a little bit of communication and I I I don't know that um, I think Uh Saratage fell a little short on communicating with our staff during the process from the time this project started conceptual till They got this letter that helped us get this on the the plan the agenda for tonight I think you fell short of of communicating. I think we should be able to fix that For me when we look at the general plan the big the big concern is this 40th avenue corridor I think you took some steps in by putting the bike lanes and and opening that up And I understand that that may come to a second phase area, but I think that's something we really need to focus on It's part of our general plan is something that we want to see I don't think we can hang on uh and and wait for a I'm a long guy or two to jump into this, but we can certainly work on that area that you have Uh a purview over coming in off of capitol a road So I think I pretty much addressed my issues. I don't I honestly I don't have a lot of big things I could move forward if we could get past some of the this conditioning Ed so I'm not going to be lengthy here because I think we need to talk about what kind of action to take spend some time on that I'm impressed by What the team has done here with? At least the Sears building for sure and some of the Some of the grounds and at the same time I'm disappointed Uh With what we have here and with the effort or lack of effort that was made to comply with sort of the direction That we provided 18 months ago the It is the elephant to me. That's the concern here And that's what we said at the time of the conceptual hearing that before we gave up On the idea that there could be some form of integrated redevelopment of the mall. We at least had to make An effort and I don't see that the effort has really been made And I'll I'll just touch on that briefly, but It's the general plan that I spent three years chairing to Have enacted in capitol that isn't Being I think really advanced by this project And it's the lack of integration with The rest of the properties there So the the team told us that there are some Features that are impossible to deal with you can't deal with the Connectivity to the west and you can't deal with the connectivity in the mall. Well, that's the point If it's done piece by piece Yes, those are impossible But if there's some overall vision that can be advanced then maybe they those aren't impossible and At some point we may have to give up the ghost on this. I know but I just don't think i'm ready They have this point to do that I don't think that the pet co and TJ max buildings has drawn Meet the requirement of the general plan in terms of Maintaining the unique coastal character of capitol. They seem to me like they're not at all Consistent with capitol's character, but maybe that can't be helped. I don't know but In mr. Waits letter He says that the approval of the application will in no way interfere With or impair future redevelopment of the mall And then he goes on to say that it will create jobs and taxes, but I didn't that was a non sequitur to me I mean, I don't see how it doesn't impair the future redevelopment of the mall because It creates jobs and taxes right now So that goes back to the point I made that I think that's the big issue And I think what we need to talk about because I think there's There aren't enough boats to approve this tonight. Let me put it that way So I think after we hear from the chairman we should kind of spend some time on what the proper action is Yeah, and and I won't labor this either so that we can get to the substance of the evening But I'll have to say that I've had a lot of frustration with this project and it's not about seratage It's about malone geyer And it seems to me that we've been put in the place and we're It's the classic case of of sacrificing the better for the best And and I'm not sure if we're ever going to get What our vision was That we developed there's already a part of the vision in the general plan about 40th avenue And more along guy has already expressed to us. They're not gonna do that So I think that we have to let go of some of that vision And look at where we are and then try to move forward take a step And I and You know on the designs Some of them I like some of them. I don't like I think that's kind of subjective I think there's a lot of forces that go behind creating these designs these businesses They know what's best to attract customers and And to generate sales and that's in essence what I think ultimately this is about Is a commercial place and for citizen community to be able to go into these shops and And get the things that they need So I've been frustrated about how I guess complex and difficult this has become I'm in a position of being prepared to move this forward in some way And and if we wanted to have arc and psych or design conditions placed on it Then maybe we could do that. I would be willing to do that Just so that we can start to move forward with something Instead of just perpetually letting it languish To me, which is another Danger because if you don't do something it could languish and and then it is a slippery slope And you know, you lose your customer base and you may never recover from that Regardless of how fabulous of a facility you create So I'm interested in movement. I'm interested in things things happen there Different things happening there. I think that that's what would attract the community attention Seeing something happening there But so that's that's you know, I think my personal opinion on it But with that said, maybe we should talk about because I don't see the votes here this evening To carry that but maybe we could talk about how we want to structure an action on this on this item And I think I will say I think how we want to structure an action that's going to you know Allow something to ultimately happen. It just needs to be you know a process for Can I ask can I just ask what what would be the expectation of the change for those three occupancies? What what do you want to see different? I I don't know how we we Set an expectation without tying marlon gyre to this and and quite frankly I don't think we can and I and I'm tired of waiting for them. I I think uh, if we do that, we're gonna This project came into me, and you know marlon gyre hadn't bought them all. I still would not approve what they have presented here tonight Okay, I can accept that but I'm asking what would you want to see different? What's going to change that to get that through because I don't I don't understand what would is it design the the looks of The buildings what what is what would you like to see that would get it through? first of all, I think the process needs to To be followed properly, and I think uh, you know the technical issues need to be dealt with Totally understood. Yeah, that's understood. You didn't say this is not complete in your letter. So, you know, we're we're here before you um And I think maybe Commissioner newman has some ideas about you know, what action we could take or we should talk about that that My impression is from The way this has come to us Uh, which is perfectly okay that the applicant who's been at this a long time has Forced it with the permit streamlining act and asserted their rights And as they have a right to do I think a denial to go back and redesign and do this and do that Does not is not consistent with that At this point, I think I would prefer just a denial and an appeal If that's the way they want to go with it from my standpoint and the reason for my denial would not be as much the technical issues as the Lack of compliance with the general plan And so can I ask you what do you think the lack of compliance is that? well the ideas No, good. I don't know because I wouldn't hear him because I obviously I studied the general plan I looked at it thoroughly and I get the pedestrian This guy we talked about the bike I get that whole but Based on just this project if we put through that 40th avenue and and they were consistent with doing that and doing the Gathering places with the beach roads and stuff that they Where do you how do you see this not? I'm not following what you're saying They also on the last page of their plans On the pads Yeah, they have the concepts of the pads with the outdoor dining They have the 40th avenue going through there. You have the bikeways going through there So part of this application Right, and they've made it very clear that they they only want to talk about the tenant improvement Well, I guess where I'm at is that is a condition for me. I have written right here Is that is that is part of this we'll move this project on with this Concept that they're going to move forward and I think we heard tonight that We do have to deal with the environmental review issue And You know, I don't I don't think you can make a finding that you don't have to do environmental review for the project at that point You do I I guess I would is that what our attorney says You cannot piecemeal a project under sequa on the other hand Sequa requires that a project have enough definition before you go forward that you can analyze the impacts of it. So if you were inclined to To to Approve the project with the pads I think what you would do is Is You'd have to we'd have to do the environmental review if you approve the project Without the pads And condition the project with the amenities that come along with the second phase In the first phase make them part of the project the first phase project instead of waiting for the second phase Then I think the piecemeal issue goes away. Okay Does that work or is that you still I just want to throw in some a couple of cents if I can Just because I'm I'm watching this bounce back and forth between you and them and I'm getting in the middle of it now Um We've been at this a long time too We've been thinking about it. We've been looking at it. We've been talking to you guys for a long time and It's it's not clear to me That I'm just gonna Put it out there. Okay. What I see when I look at this project is a Um, you know slap some pain on it throw up a couple of things to satisfy two new tenants and Give us lip service for what they think we want to hear and let's get it approved Let's move it on and I'm really ready on the other end of the spectrum from moving it forward to say stop and This is the the second time we've we've had this discussion. We haven't made much progress I don't see a lot of changes from what I saw in the concept review I know that there are some there's some landscaping but in the in the bigger picture. It's not moving towards the vision I guess I and I'm not them I don't understand what your vision is that then because if I look and it's very subjective I guess but if I look at the general plan and I look at what they've given us as far as that vision in the future To me, I think they're they're right on board So I guess maybe it's me that's missing it, but I I don't see that Some ways it's close to continuing it because they're not restricted to not being able to come back for another year They they need to they can go back and you know Develop their plan and come back with it at any time that they want I mean there there we would it need At least one more full meeting to go through coming up with conditions in my mind that we would have to place on this project Um, I mean, there's there's not adequate landscaping plans. I don't understand, you know the trellises which are the main things Going on their building, uh, you know, we we don't have that information tonight. So You know, I think we're out of place tonight where You know, we we need to deny the project The question is do we do it with or without prejudice and I go back to my thing I don't I don't understand why there can't be, you know, some sort of specific plan for sort of this area this property how how how it's going to to work I mean we talked about that in our new zoning regulations That was one of the things that we wanted because if we had that then we could see How this was all going to evolve and work together and um So, I mean, I don't I don't know if staff have any ideas about, you know, going down that kind of up route If if the project were denied without prejudice They could come back in in the next month or two with a similar application with all the Items that you requested this evening If it was a denial Um With prejudice just straight denial They would not be able to resubmit an application for a one-year period In that time you could of course direct staff to start working on a specific plan and the For the city to initiate it and in under that scenario We would be working with the property You know We'd come back to you with the details of what that would look like at this juncture I can't tell you exactly what that would look like, but it'd be a Some type of an effort to work within the mall property towards a specific plan to capture that vision So we often Send applicants back with a denial to come back Yeah, a short period of time with changes I don't think that this project fits that mold because they have forced the issue and Deliverately because they want to get decisive action here And so I think that we should give them that whether it's an approval with conditions or a denial And then let them move Ahead with whatever Remedies they have which is the city council, of course And if this thing resolved because it is to me, it's the bigger issue. It's not the drainage issue, right? So can can I ask it so if we deny it without prejudice? That doesn't eliminate them still appealing They still have to Correct, they would have two options then which would be to come back to the planning commission with your Suggested or go straight to the city council want to appeal. I think it would be better to move this Up to the city council. Okay. Well, I'm going to call for a motion then at this time Somebody want to make a motion? Well, I'll jump in there because I was ready to approve it on condition So if we're if we're not going to get there, which it looks like we're not then I would say we um deny it Without prejudice And they could bring it back to us. I you know, I just just to clarify a little bit. I I hate to Not do what I feel like is or or do diligence and just punt to the city council I think that this is what we're here for and so for me I'd like to see us complete this project before it goes to the city council So I'd make a motion that we deny it without prejudice and there's a motion. Yes, john A commissioner newman and commissioner westman both indicated that they had a general plan concerns It might not have been reflected in the agenda report and it would be good for staff to hear those so we could Include those reasons for denial, which are the commission's reasons for denial in any resolution We prepare that would go up to the city council Mine are included in the staff report. Okay, pretty much. Do you have any that aren't concluded? Mine are pretty much in there. Uh, I you know, it's sort of the The public access the pedestrian use the sidewalks connectivity, you know, I don't think those are Okay, there's a motion is there a second Well, if well, if nobody seconds and that one's going to fail So then we will have another motion I hear no second so the motion fails I I'll make a motion to deny the project I'll second it clarification that's without Any indication of with prejudice or without prejudice? That's with prejudice. Okay So there's a motion and a second I'm going to call for A roll call vote Human yes Commissioner Smith. Yes Commissioner Welch no Commissioner Westman. Yes Chairperson story. No the motion passes three to two That brings us to item six, which is the director's report No report this evening. Okay Um, and finally it's commission communications any uh communications so We've communicated enough this evening It was nice to have John here tonight Hello again. Yes. Thanks John. Thanks for being here John With that, um, I'll adjourn this meeting uh to the, um, July