 What's up guys? We are back with another episode of the podcast, the After Hours podcast, and we have two super special guests that everyone has been requesting for some time. We have On and we have Woody. And to be honest, I really have no idea what the direction of this podcast today. They have this great topic they kind of want to talk about and how they want to take it. So On, if you want to kind of start it off and give us what you want to talk about. Yeah, well, all right. Oh, sorry. Do you already start? Yeah, we do. I can't. How's this testing? So thank you gentlemen for having me on and thanks for having Woody on too. I wanted Woody on today because Woody's been my tab. He's been keeping me in line, you know, he kind of sets the rules, sets the tones and he kind of slaps me around if I get out of hand. And that's why I wanted him on today because in case I get out of hand, you know, he's gonna make sure that keeps me back in line. Do we have the buzzer? We have the buzzer. If things go wrong, is that what he has? Yeah, buzzer, buzzer here too. Yeah, you know, we've actually, to be honest, we've actually evolved because we were doing the, I don't know if last time On did it, he was talking about with Bao doing the nine volt battery. And we sort of evolved to this one now. So it's all good. As you get better as traders, you develop and now you get better tools, you know, it's cool. It's sort of like a battery management. Yeah, yeah. We're trying to figure out how we can, we can shop each other through the phone system. So that's probably the next step. Geez, Woody, it looks powerful. Dude, look at the background Woody. That's nice. It's snowing out here. It's like, it's coming down, bro, that sucks. Yeah, it's gonna start here soon too. Canada, isn't it just snowing all the time in Canada? Like, never stops. Pretty much, but this winter hasn't been bad at all. We haven't gotten that much snow, thankfully. Yeah, that's not bad. But so yeah, so I guess, you know, On and Woody had this kind of idea with us, you know, that a lot of people know everyone's stories, you know, as traders, we all have very similar stories that we were just saying. And, you know, I think that they really want to dive into more like the developmental stages of becoming a trader. And I guess, you know, either one of you, if you want to like start it off and kind of give us your, you know, don't tell us, you don't have to tell us your story, but you know, tell us like how you've developed recently and over time and what got you to like where you are. Yeah, I think that's a good start, yeah. Yeah, so I think on the way, I'd like to frame this podcast, you know, from my perspective and again, Woody can chime in because Woody's a very experienced trader. I want to frame it and think to help people think about, you know, certain things when they're trading. And so we're going to coin this whole topic around, trading can be like dating. Yes. We're in talks of the fall. He's miserable, horrible, crazy conversations about this. And there's a strong parallels and analogies to it. And we want to keep this live, it's lively and funny because it is stressful enough. So, we got to find a way to relate to it to help the next person. That's all we care about is passing on good karma to other traders. Yeah. You guys have been trading for a while, right? How long have you both been trading for? That's a sigh of pain. Yeah. I started full-time in 2007. Jesus dude, I was in seventh grade. Harry wasn't even born yet, I don't think. 2007, I would have been eight years old. Jesus. Yeah, that felt great. That feels great. That's great. So actually, before you even died fully in, how did you guys become tabs? Was it through MIC? How did you even come to this? Is it just because you're both old and wanted to talk? No, man, it was pretty simple. So you guys know, I restarted again in June of 2020. I reached out to Woody and asked, hey, man, I need a tab. And somehow Woody did his calculation, punched into the machine, threw my name out of a hat, and ended up being him. That's awesome. I mean, to be honest, Odd and I have a lot of similarities. We're similar in age, we're short of bias. We've been around the block a couple of times. So if we talk about moving average, Fibonacci, all that stuff, we know what we're talking about, and we understand we have to adapt to our market constantly. This is a game of adaptation. If you don't adapt, you die. I mean, you hear it all the time in the small caps room. Death is going on this week. Low hanging fruit going on next week. You have to constantly adapt. Well, we go to that level when we're talking, what parameters to use and how we define those. He is spooky smart. I mean, he gives me a run for my freaking money. I've been doing this a long time, and he is spooky smart. There is no doubt about it. So we work well. And we have the same lingo in regards that we use our analogy to dating and all that stuff. So it works out well. Yeah, I just want to add, seriously, the way we talk, it's like two old guys talking about dating. Yeah. Nailer? I mean, before I say things like this, I just want to say that. There's the fucking deeper here. There's the deeper room. I'm ready. It's just a frame that we're trying to give you the psychology so you can think through things a little more relatable to when you're thinking about trading. Because trading a lot is very similar in a lot of ways to dating. You think about it like you talk about low hanging fruit. Again, not to offend anybody. I can also say with women, I've had several conversations with women traders. And they have told me so many times, GTFO, they are an a firm believer of. And I was sort of hurt when they said that. So what do you say to guys? We'll keep it both ways, right? We'll have the dating for like, if we refer to dating women, it goes both ways. Whether you're traders or wherever you're into, do whatever you want, whatever. But it's all dating. Yeah, in this day and age, you're just saying it's not purely males. You could be dating this thing. You have no idea. Whatever floats your boat. If someone says anything wrong, that's just it. Yeah, we're good. That's like the wrong answer. But I do want to say, I love seeing. And I know this doesn't really stay on the topic. But I love seeing the TAB program work. And seeing people become close and friends. Because you live near me, you're in Boston. And what are you down in Boca, right? How else can two people, me and Alex talk all the time, how can two people from across the country or on other sides of it, whatever, be friends and be so relatable? And I just think, so I just wanted to say, I love seeing you guys do that. That's awesome. Through the internet, baby. Yeah, I mean, we could do a whole segment on matches that have been made that would just make you curl your toes where you're like, are you kidding me? But that's a whole different topic for another day. But yeah, please on, go for it. Well, why don't you guys start asking some questions? I picked some topics out just to kind of get the discussion going. But you guys, you know, to start it off, like how do you deal with like FOMO, you know, something like something simple as that, like you see a move happen, let's see you guys are short biased, you see a massive death candle happen. How what, you know, what is some tricks that you guys have, like that would help you kind of deal with that, you know? OK, so let's go back to, let's go back to dating. Right? How do you deal with FOMO? So how do you deal with the very attractive person you see all of a sudden walk into the bar, right? James, when you want to give an example, how do you deal with it? You jump all in, jump all in your, all your lines, say, hey, how are you doing with me? Well, it's funny because like I love this, I love the idea of relating to dating because when I was younger, right? And I think it goes with the whole thing. When I was younger, it would be FOMO. I see someone walk in, I'm like, I need that now. Right? And you do it right now and you jump in as fast, you know? And usually that first, like, go around, you get kind of rejected because it doesn't really work. So, yeah, I think, yeah. Yeah, I, I, I, I can remember this, but I was the deer in the headlights when the hot chick would come in. So it's funny with me because like, I'm like, I'm a very patient person and what would happen with me? And maybe this is just my scenario, but when, you know, I lived in Halifax, other stuff like that, it was so weird because my friends would make conversation with the girl by talking about me. Like, oh, this guy's a traitor. You know, they, they, they talk about what I do. And I would just sit back and just be super patient. And then at the end of the night or maybe halfway through, she'd come up to me, I'd have a conversation. And then like, I mean, that would be it. My friend's like, oh, how's Harry getting with like, you know, I don't want to, you know, hit the buzzer there. But like, you know. I'll do it for you. Hold on. Yeah. But I mean like, you know, it's just like stuff like that where I ended up being kind of in a lucky position, but let's say I didn't have trading. Let's say I didn't have anything like that. I'd still be very, very patient, I think, where you just kind of like, you know, like I think it's a lot of like, it's a lot of chance and like a lot of luck, but like, you know, it's the same thing in trading where it's like, if you don't chase trades, then the money will kind of come to you. But if you're out chasing everything, going each direction, don't really have a plan, don't really know what you're doing, then I find you're a lot more prepared and you're a lot more kind of like in that, that better mindset to be able to execute and to be able to perform better, right? So what you're saying, blondes are your niche, is that what you're saying? Yeah, exactly. You know. That's good. That's good. I mean, you know, you found your niche and you focus on that and it works. There's nothing wrong with that at all. At the end of the night, you have a good time. So that's a great way to put it. And it's just like trading, like I don't know how I always talk about. Well, I think it's like, you know, you like kind of like to your question on, you were like saying, like, you know, how are you? And it's like, you know, I think it's funny, right? Cause when you are in a rush to jump in to like talking to someone or whatever, it's kind of like the same thing, right? Like with trading, you really don't have a plan. You really just jump into it and you have FOMO, you're like, I need to get with this girl, I need to get with this girl or this person. And you always end up fucking it up, right? And at the end of the day, you do, you end up blowing up. And at the end of the day, like what Harry was saying, like as I got older, I recognized that not being the guy at the front of the line trying to get the girl is usually the safest bet, right? Yeah. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Yeah. Again, that's the reason why I wanted to frame this cause it's a psychological game in that, you know, and you asked about FOMO. Well, you know, you approach it, come in very slowly. I mean, again, I'm not an expert like Woody, you know, but come in slowly, right? Wait for the opportunity. And then if it looks good, then you go on it. And that's the same thing with trading. You just gotta wait for the opportunity. And you'll know when the opportunity is right. Yeah. It's what in my case is, identifying when the opportunity is right. So you just have to think about it. What would I do? How would I do it in real life? Apply it to trading because you gotta remember, trading is all psychology. You know, I mean, there's a lot of computers out there, but the computers are basing it on human psychology. Yeah. And now they're basing it on like computer psychology too, because, you know, they're trying to figure out what are the algos, how the algos built a certain way. But those algos are basically built off of human psychology. Yeah, and I agree they are because they know that, they know that, let's say, short sellers have an average of like maybe 3.15. And they know that if they move the stock price up to 3.20, 3.30, people are gonna start getting alarmed, you know, on that first dip, you know everyone's gonna try and cover and we get that kind of move higher, move higher, move higher. By the time all the shorts are blown out and longs get that one dip that they wanna buy, that dip ends up like being the shittiest dip ever because all the shorts are natural bidders are all gone, right? And that's what I was kind of talking about today as well in like my own video, that'll probably be out soon. But, you know, that is kind of what I find now. The main objective now is just, you know, trap a bunch of shorts, move it higher, boom, you get a good enough price to dilute and then we're back down again. And that's kind of what I've been seeing. So if you're patient, wait for that backside move, you know, that's a, you know, you're putting yourself in a good position as a short to be able to kind of catch that move down, right? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Woody, how do you, I guess I kind of wanna ask you, how do you handle FOMO on your side? Because I've traded with on as well. And like, I kind of, I've grown to understand how he does, but for you, what do you do? And how do you relate it to this kind of topic? I mean, like for me, you know, one of the smartest things I've learned from MIC, and I didn't do this before, and definitely going back to the trading analogy, is just set a bunch of freaking fantasy orders way out there. And, you know, because what's happening in my mind is like, I gotta do something, gotta do something, gotta do something. Okay, well, how do I take that energy? So I'm either gonna be setting alerts, which costs me zero, or I'm gonna set these fantasy line orders that are a dollar or two away. And, you know, it's keeping my brain occupied and waiting for that moment. And that's the thing is, you know, don't try to mind fuck myself. So, that's how I look at it. I had to vote myself, sorry. I like that, though, because, I mean, at the end of the day, right, like, especially if you're relating it to like the dating world, like, you can psych yourself out, right? Like if you, yeah, 100%, I mean, that's what FOMO is. I think you psych yourself out, almost thinking it's the right moment, or thinking you're missing something or whatever, and then you end up missing it. You end up missing the entire play. So like, you see the hot chick, you know, you gotta go talk to your buddies, sort of distract yourself to wait for that right moment. So it's a similar analogy, you know, you don't want to be too like, oh, I gotta go now, but then you want to be sort of cool about it, you know, wait for that moment. Yeah. All right, guys, I'll be honest. The reason why I got Woody on here was because we're talking about dating and trading, and I'm not an expert on dating and Woody is, that's why we wanted him on here. Oh, no, I'm living the Al Bundy lifestyle. I'm married with children, so. Al Bundy lifestyle. I know, I'm living that. Anna's the hero here. He's got the stories. I mean, it's cool though, it's cool again, like that you guys kind of have this idea of like, you know, trading is like, you can relate, we talk about this all the time, you can relate trading to almost anything in the world, like anything you do, this process, it takes patience, it takes discipline, whatever, the gym, fuck, whatever. But I like this analogy, because I think that it makes a lot of sense. And I kind of wonder like, how do you guys go about moving from FOMO, I guess? How do you guys go about like leveling up, like going to the next stages of trading, developmental and like getting better? Sure, sure. So like, let's talk about lines, for example, right? MIC teaches lines all the time. And, you know, a lot of times the lines work, okay? A lot of times they work, but we're starting to see that there's instances now in this recent market that some of the lines don't work very well, right? And why is that, right? And so some of the thinking that I have on this, and again, it relates to dating is that, we have lines, right? All the guys generally tend to use the same lines, right? Yeah, yeah. Smart and the smart women are the smart men, or the smart potential mate, because we're being, you know, the gender neutral here. They know those lines. So you don't think those algos know those lines. You don't think those market makers have calculated out and know those lines, they do. And that's why we're seeing people getting blown past those lines all the time, right? So one of the ways to think about it, well, how do you figure out what really, what another really effective line is? And, you know, if you think about it, well, dating, you know, let's go find some really good lines. You can go back to the historical texts, like movies, right? Go back five, 10 years, like Jeremiah McGuire has really good lines. Yeah, Jeremiah. Had me at hello, right? Yeah, yeah. Right? So that's what I always tell other traders when they ask me is that if they can't really see the line on some of these things, go back further. Don't just go back one or two days. No, go back a lot further. Three months, five months a year. Oh. Look for those lines. Look for the support and resistance then. And now a lot of times those may hold a little more strength than just the obvious lines, because I'll tell you, the obvious lines are also obvious to the algos and the market makers. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So again. Yeah, I think also with the lines, it really does come down to a lot of times who's trapped, right? And so what we've been seeing now is that the algo will kind of take the stock down like we saw in the other A stock, right? The algo will kind of take the stock down or the market maker, whoever. And there aren't really a lot of long participants there, because as a short, you're playing against longs. As a long, you're playing against shorts, right? Yeah. And so what we see is that there aren't really a lot of long participants who are kind of trapped. And the resistance lines I find work very, very well. When we have a pre-market that has done one, two, three million volume, every single long is trapped. And then we go higher and we're not doing enough volume to push past all those other bag holders. Where I find, you know, on something where, you know, longs aren't trapped at all. There hasn't really been many participants. We're gonna blow right through those areas, right? Because we're doing so much volume, maybe it's a low float. And maybe we go from like two to five, just because there's no one trapped, right? And that's why I think as far as the lines go, as far as stuff goes like that, you know, we need other traders and other participants to be trapped in order to play off them, you know? So I think that's something that I always, you know, keeping it back in my mind as well. I think right now too, like you're seeing like, like for example, like I kind of remember, like obviously when you're single, right? You're at a whole lot of concepts like go out, you go to a club, a bar, you wanna meet people. But whenever you went to the busiest clubs and bars, it was much harder to interact with people, right? Because like you'd go to a club, it's loud, it's hard. I think it's hard to make a connection. Whereas with trading right now, it's kind of the same thing. Like I just pulled up all my charts from the week and I just wanted to see them. And it's like, you look at like these movers, like LAIX, JG, AEME. That front side move was so volatile, it was so busy. That was like the most packed club in the world. Everyone's getting in, probably all these beautiful, beautiful women in there. That's the concept. And then look at what happened when it kind of died, right? Like you're at a slower pace and it just becomes so much easier. And I think that's kind of our theme right now is just that whatever everyone's looking at is what you can't fucking touch as a short seller. Yeah. It's a great way to look at it because now you're talking risk management. How do I manage the situation and adapt to the situation? So now you're walking into the bar, it's crowded, it's loud. There's a lot of hot chicks. So now, when is it gonna slow down so that you can make your move? What, or what you're adaptable to? And it goes the same for longs or shorts. When is my top, what is the best time for me? When is the best time for me to adapt to it? And it's exact same analogy when you really sit down and look at it. Man or woman in fact. Yeah. 100%. Yeah, and I was just for fun. What I like to do on a lot of stuff is like, I'll pull up kind of like the Google search trends. So, you know, a big way to gauge like how many new participants are in a market is just to Google the search trend, how to trade stocks, right? What we're seeing now is that there are more people trying to search how to trade stocks than there were pre COVID, than there were pre whatever. So we have all this dumb, long money that's just buy and stuff up. So before in the other market, and I also just for fun on like last Wednesday night, I was looking at some of my old tape recordings from like 2018, 2019. And you notice- The volume now is insane there. It's insane dude. The volume is so much increased volume. We're getting now, even in like the last week, compared to anything else before, you know, before the prior, it's just insane. We have all these long dumb money just chasing, slapping the ass. We have store traders who haven't really adapted well, who are forced to cover higher. We're getting these massive squeezes. And so like, you know- Go ahead, sorry. Because like Bow or Alex or Tosh will just be like, all right guys, avoid, avoid, avoid. And then we go two, three points higher, you know. That's been keeping a lot of people safe as well, I think. And also, you know, just the risk management, like me and Austin talked about, like if I know that I'm wrong, I'm stopping out right away. Instead of right away. You know, if you're, let's say you have a fantasy order set at, you know, 260 and all of a sudden the price is at 280, you know, there's no reason to be in that trade anymore, right? So I mean, that's something that I just wanted to kind of add. I mean, dude, I just put in, I just had one of the members help me too. Like I put in a hot button for hard stops and An was helping me too. Like I want to make sure at all times right now that I'm not like fucking around with risk. Like it's like, it's the, I have an opinion that I think this new volume we're seeing is not going anywhere for a long time. Like I think this could be two years plus of just new market participants and people think that the stock market, or they're just finding out now is the stock market is the key to accumulating some wealth. And I think we have this younger generation that like doesn't really want to work. So they see that the market is like a casino. And I think that's how they're going to treat it for a long time. And right now more than ever, like, you have to be careful. You have to have your hard stops in. And it's just like what we're saying. Like if you go to the busiest place, you know, the odds are you're at capacity, you're going to get kicked out. It's going to be hard to meet people, everything, whatever. And that's the market right now on both sides is if you're playing what's the hot stock of the day, you're just going to get fucked. Let me just add to what James said about hot buttons. So this is kind of how the thinking goes. And I'm going to relate to dating again. And this new millennium, this new era, this is the era that Woody and I didn't really participate in. But you have a lot of technology tools to help you with dating, right? You have like a tinder, you know, people used to meet, you know, was match.com back then, you know, plenty of fish, I mean, there's, you know, there's, there's all these apps, right? I don't even know the name of the app, like coffee, it's bagel, right? Why can't you use... James has been on Grindr a whole lot. Oh my God, I was saving that fucking joke for you, and I was like, no, I'm not going to do it. All right, so, but, you know, since, you know, given that technology has also advanced on trading platforms, I know the classic way to trade is just to manually put orders in. And then again, you know, that's a really good way. But, you know, why not leverage technology to ensure that you stay safe on the market, right? And that's why I'm really glad that, James, you started building hot buttons, because I, for example, I just built a hot button this morning, and I'll share the code with everybody, where right when I put an order in, it automatically puts a stop order in. Automatically, right? Right when I fill on something, it automatically puts a stop order at that share size. And I want to just confirm, these are not hot keys. On you the same, I don't use hot keys. Hot keys are for people, in my opinion, that have immense FOMO and want to hit every little thing. And hot keys are, in my opinion, the most dangerous thing in trading, unless you were super, super fucking disciplined. Well, I actually have hot keys for stops now. Oh yeah, like stuff like that, yeah. Like, and a lot of people are like, you know, oh man, like you shouldn't have like a market order for a hot key. You know, the market makers can fill you wherever you want, there's slippage. I'm like, bro, you can't think like that. Like I'm hitting my hot key out and I'm slamming that bit as hard as I fucking can. I'm trying to get billed wherever I can to get out because I know that I'm wrong, right? Dude, I have a cover all button and it's my old fuck button. That's what it is. It's like, if I need to get the fuck out, I'm going to get out, I'm going to market order out and I'm going to use that to my advantage. Like I said, that's technology. Why do you want to manually do it, you know? Exactly. Yeah, totally. You've got to have a GTFO button. You have to have that. You know, the thing in trading that I've learned and like on, I remember when we went out to dinner, you told me like to not compare myself to others, right? And that's like, same thing with the other guy that you go to a bar, it's a dude, 10 times better looking than you, right? And you don't want to compare it. He said Oliver Tan, he's a big fucking jack dude. And you think about it and like guys like Alex, guys like Bao, their discipline is like super saying, right? Like they can, they will stop out when they fucking have to. And they do it religiously every day. It's amazing. I've never seen people do this, their risk management. But for some of us, it's not all like that. Sometimes, you know, especially when you're new, it's hard to like make yourself get out and not compare to like other people. Like sometimes you need those little tools to like help you like get along. Yeah. Yeah, they totally, totally agree with that. You have to have those tools. That's just survival too, where it's like, you know, there's going to be a time where you're wrong, whether you like it or not, and you're going to need to accept that risk early on in order to survive in this game, right? Like I'm sure as hell, like I'm honestly 100% sure that you could take a new trader who doesn't know anything and tell them, if you go down more than 10, 20 cents, stop out immediately. And if you have them do that every single time, I'm sure they would be profitable. 100% Very high, you know, or stuff like that. I'm sure that they would be able to at least, they'd be able to at least survive long enough that they kind of start understanding and start learning. But what happens to a lot of people is they're like, oh, I'm right, I'm right, I'm right. Like, do you want to be right or do you want to be profitable? Because those are very different things, right? Those are two very, very different things. They're the markets show different now where like volume is fucking nuts. I remember like a year ago, two years ago, if I had a stopout level, you could almost give it wiggle room. You could give it with high of day, I used to give high of day 20 cents and like not even sweat it because the volume, you knew it. But now a stock, like I'm looking at fricking JG from Friday. I mean, high day was 9.50, next thing you know, you're at 12.50. I mean, these, you know, if you don't have the discipline right now to stop out, like you have to fucking do it. I mean, it's just, you're gonna die. And I'm a long side. I'm looking at it. It faded from 12.50 to four. Yeah. I mean, you know. How many traders are dead from GameStop? I mean, how many? Oh my God. I mean, millions. Like it's not even. Yeah. I mean, who would have thought it would go on to 500? So. So hedge funds are dead. Billionaires are dead. Yeah. I mean, these guys are professionals. I mean, you know, I never saw 500 from $5 to 500. I mean, my 14 year old bust my balls all the time saying, why didn't you buy it? When is that $5? Oh my God. Oh my God. And I was just like, I hate you. And he's like, what's lines? Who cares about lines? It's good. I love it. Hold the line. Hold the fucking line. But you know, going back to the generational issue, he is asking me, so how do you short? And he's freaking 14. So I love it though. I love that too. It's awesome. So that is like, you know, that is like my Google search when he's telling me what, and that's like telling me what's coming down the pipe. So this is gonna be around for years and years. And I'm glad they're gonna get educated financially. I'm glad they're stepping up because the education system sucks. So I'm glad he stopped by asking these questions. But yes, you'd have to have risk management. Dude, for example, like I have a stack of MIC cards, like the business cards that I hand out to people just cause people ask me all the time at work and I just would rather give them the card, they can text Tosh, whatever. Before GameStop, I would probably give out a couple of weeks, you know, a handful of weeks. I went in on Tuesday or whatever, it was gone. It was gone. There was a 50 card there in the stack because everyone now is doing it. And, you know, if we're bringing this back to dating, like we are the guys that are like seasoned vets. We are the guys that are sitting there waiting and now we're prepared. And we know how to like, we know what we like in dating. We know what we want and how to approach situations. And all these new people coming in, they're gonna be the 21 year old kids that are fucking 20 as fuck and they're gonna jump into the club and just go nuts. And this is what we're seeing. Hang on, should I tell them about the dog analogy? What? No, what? Could I tell them about my dog story? Yeah, go for it. Yeah, for sure. Okay, this is a buddy of mine and this is eight eons ago. So he had this theory and it worked out probably 10% of the time. I'm gonna bless you. So when it was one in the morning, he would ask the girls, the hot chick, you know, they're so tired, they're a little bored, they've had a couple drinks. So would you like to fuck? No, I know 10 times he would get slapped or the beard get thrown in his face, but he liked the odds of 10%. All right, he was an old guy. So just to kind of frame this into trading, the whole psychology behind it. Oh my God. 10% hip or dumb. The whole psychology is you gotta be patient, like in the real world with interacting with human, with people for social purposes, you have to spend the time to really train yourself to be patient. Cause when you're patient and you see the setup, then you'll know when it's time to actually go in and do a proclamation, you know what I mean? And that's the same thing. It's just in trading, because I've received quite a few DMs over the weekend. Some traders have blown up. Some traders are kept on going in early. If you think this is the right opportunity, they kept on adding to the loser. And then all of a sudden they're down a large amount. Yeah. And that's the same in a social setting where you think it's an opportunity, but you didn't, and you start nibbling, but then you start going in too quick, too large, too thick, and all of a sudden you know. You're the smart that bought all the beers for the girl and she's not going home with you. Yeah. So the thing is is, you know, gotta be patient, wait for the setup. And usually the setup, you'll know what the setup is when you see it, but it's not there yet. It's not there yet. And that's why like I've done the little things even for myself, because you know, I still have FOMO. Like I get into stupid situations where I, you know, I add in a little too much size and I get kicked out, right? But you know, it's because I put those stops in to kick me out. But, you know, that's why like I even created a FOMO button. Like I know this is FOMO, so I should just go one share. I tried going long for a while, but then you know, it did, it worked well for me, but you know, sometimes I forget because I'm a short bias trader. So I created a FOMO one share button to go short. For me, it's just again, it's a psychology where you have to force yourself to wait and you'll know when it's broken. You'll know when it's ready. 100%. You'll see it, you've seen it so many times. Even for long traders, like I'm not a very good long trader, you know, but you'll know when it sets up for you. You'll just know. 100%. You can't wait for it, right? And it's all that discipline, right? And it's just really waiting for that, waiting for that feeling of, you know, everyone's been early once before and let's say, you know, it's very easy to be caught early shorting, you know, it's easy as long as well, but, you know, let's say, you know, you get this kind of move up and, you know, you take some cause it just kind of moved up and then it starts going against you and you stop out and then starts going against you a little more and then you stop out again and then you get, and then you see it just tank and you know that that next pop is, it all longs are just gonna be screwed on it. How did you just waited for that certainty feeling, that feeling of, I know, you know, I know, I know. That just saves you so much mental capital rather than, you know, getting in this boxing match and just getting your ass kicked on the way up, you know? So I think it's really that feeling deep down that you get where you kind of like, it's like, you know, you know that you've won the battle before you've even started to fight, you know? A hundred percent, a hundred percent. Like, have you guys ever been like talking to a girl, right, you meet a random girl, whatever you talk to her and you just know right away that it's not gonna work out. You know right away that you're not a good match, right? Whereas like, and I'm sure like, a lot of you can attest to her, like Mary, but like even with me, like when I talked to my girlfriend for the first time, like I was like, I know what I'm doing. I feel like I'm in the driver's seat. I'm confident that this is gonna work and I feel like that's a lot of trading is just like, I get a lot of DMs of people like, dude, how does guys like Alex accept the risk? How do they do this? How do they know when it's the right moment? It's kind of like, there comes a point where you just do, you just know and you're willing to put on the size and you're willing to accept the risk because you're in the driver's seat and you're confident in the setup. Yeah. Yeah, totally, totally, totally agree. It's exact same analogy. And you know, sometimes, you know, take it off the screen. That hot chick, not working for you. You take it off the screen, you don't ever look at it again. It's not your style, it's not your setup. And that's a good risk management decision. I know I do that all the time now. When I see it, or it's like too freaking early, like I am not gonna look at that direction at all. We're gonna go over here and just gonna wait it out for another two or three hours. And if I miss, I miss, I've got other plays to do. Yup, that's it. And when you know, you know, you'll lay it on thick, we'll dump it in, you know? Yeah, yeah. Someone put a button out for that one, get the button. I think, you know, it's quick. He's just too quick, he's snuck it in there, but you know, and I'm like, something I wanted you to talk about too is like, you've gotten in my head about the nibble idea, right? The nibble and dump is what you call it. And I think that that's something I'd like you to kind of go over like, and use an analogy because I think it's such a good concept. So, again, the nibble analogy is very simple, like I've, you know, again, we all struggle. And I've struggled with getting in too large too early or getting in getting in early. And that's why even when you think it's almost time, I really go small. Like I go small and nibble small, like, you know, one share, 10 shares, you know, if I'm really desperate, maybe a hundred shares, but you go really small and you can do it a couple of times. And that's why I've created that one share button just to make sure I always keep it on that one share button default. And if I really have to go, I'll do one share for now, just to see how it works. And a lot of times it won't work the right way, you know, it keeps on going up and that one share and it looks like it's parabolic, it looks like it's ready to break. And then when it does, you know, you start to be seeing that big red candle, you can put a couple more one shares on, but when it doesn't come back and hit those shares up, you know, it's time. And that's when I start, you know, I change my share sizes to like 500, 1,000, and then you start dumping it in. Yeah, but it's just, you have to wait and you have to deal with your own demons, deal with your own demons. And it's just like, you know, it's just like in dating, you got to deal with your own demons. You can't just gung-ho jump in and be the guy that is in everyone's face, you know, trying to throw lines out everywhere because it doesn't work a lot of times. Yeah, you don't want her to file a restraining order on you. You don't want that. I mean, well, how many times does that happen to you? Yeah, that's when you've blown up. Yeah, but the thinking again is, you know, put a little bit of fuelers out there if you need to, but you'll know, you'll know when it's time. And it's just like, you'll know when it's time that, you know, you met somebody and there's chemistry. You'll just know, and that's the thing. Yeah, I love that. And how is this analogy, because you guys have used this analogy for a long time of the whole dating thing, and how is this like directly, like is there something that you can tell that if you didn't think about it this way before to now, how has it impacted your trading and like how is it making you better? Like what is like the best thing you've gotten from kind of like transitioning your thinking into this? Well, so great question. We are all evolving creatures, you know, we're going through an evolution in our lives, right? Like even Bao and even Alex, even till today, Bao and Alex are evolving as traders, right? I mean, Bao started as a, you know, an OTC trader, then he evolved over to, you know, small caps. He evolved to, you know, swinging things overnight to now only trading certain things a certain hours, right? And stopping because of zombie time. Those are steps of a person's evolution and self-realization. Yeah. We do that all the time when we interact with people. We do that all the time. So the same thing applies to trading is that, you know, you start picking up on cues that work and don't work. And you learn from others, but one of the most successful things that do work for traders is you realize where your weaknesses are, is my weakness putting too much lagging on too thick too early. If it is, let's break that habit. Let's not lay it on too thick. Create all these barriers, use the technologies that are there to stay it on thick. Yeah. I mean, you know, I think, you know, that's the thing when I first met, we were, I think we had this constant issue of like, yeah, we'll stop at 1030. Uh-huh, uh-huh. Yeah, we'll stop at 1030. And then, you know, like, well, now we're gonna suck on the battery if we go past 1030. And that's how we're doing it first. And we were forcing each other and yelling and screaming at each other over the phone. And, you know, you know, and, you know, we deserved it. I know I did a lot of talking. Yeah, but thank goodness he did. He was there to like, you know, it's like staying at the bar until three in the morning and coming home with nada. You know, why are you doing that? We need a wingman. Yeah, we need a wingman to pull you out of there. Yeah, and that's exactly what he's doing. He's like, that's not your niche. Why are you doing it? Why do you keep doing it if you keep losing? And, you know, I had to get slapped around and realize that's where I lose. So I don't need to go there. I don't need to go to that bar. I don't need to go that place. You know, I need to focus on my little niche. Yeah, I think that's exactly it. Yeah, I think of my secretary, right? Taking my laptop away at like 1030. Yeah. You know what that is? That's my buddy yanking me out and saying, dude, it's time to go home. Yeah. Dude, you've done enough, it's time to go home. Yeah. I don't have the discipline or I didn't have the discipline back then. You know, dude, it's time to go home. Yeah. So it's totally it. Totally it. I love that. You had to have those dog rails. I love that. And how did you, I guess, then get the confidence to, again, using this analogy to not only size up, but then to lay it on thick when the moment came? Like how did you know, you know, because I know it was something that's impressive but you guys is like P&Ls, like you got big P&Ls, right? And that's awesome. And but you get that by sizing up and having the confidence. And what was it that gave you that over time? Because I've seen you both kind of develop really a lot recently too. So what was it that really contributed to that? So I'm in a field where, you know, my training is that you have to learn it and learn it well before you do it. And then before you do it well, right? Like when I stick it in someone's spine, or by, you know, I've been putting these little implants into people's spine so they can lift up the bones in their spine a bit so they can walk better because it doesn't depress on the nerves, right? So the question is, when do you go and do that and do it for real versus, like do it like, you know, on a patient versus, you know, a cadaver, right? It's all about building that mental memory and that muscle memory. So in training, for me, it's about, I've recognized where through, you know, my mental memory, right, that at a certain point, I know it's gonna break and it does, and at a certain point, I know where my profitability, likelihood of profitability is gonna be if I do certain things like start dumping it. And then it's just, it's mental memory. You go into muscle memory, right? And you start, you start small, right? You start small, but you go into muscle memory where my mental memory triggers that this is gonna work. Your muscle memory says, okay, click, click, click, short, short, short, right? And then that's how you do it. But then you just gradually size up afterward. Don't think of the number. Think of the reflex. Think of the reflex, the scenario, because it repeats itself every damn day. You just have to look for the right opportunity. He brings up such a good point, and I hope people catch that. And he's talking about, you know, as a doctor, you know, would you want him to do the first time on your back ever for him to put that implant on you? Hell no. Fuck no. So it is him going into that cadaver and practicing it over and over and over again. Some people will look at a chart and they get it. But what, you know, a lot of other people do, myself and on especially, is freaking back tests. Tosh talks about all the time in his weekly webinar. And so he's back testing until he gets it perfect. So as a patient, you want that doctor knowing how to do that back surgery and how to do it properly. And he's got it down to a reflex in his head and in his muscles. So, and I'll be honest with you, like I didn't realize the replay function on DOS until the last weekend. And I knew TOS had it and I've been playing with TOS, but with DOS, with the replay function, it's phenomenal. Like I'd never thought that it would be to that degree. Yeah, you're getting better on the weekends and that's the way it should be. You know, you should get this down to a reflex because that will lessen the fear of FOMO when you're in that moment. So it's sort of like, you know, practicing your one-liners before you walk in the bar. That's what you're doing in a way. And finding what works and getting that down to a reflex. So it's amazing what you've done. And if you really want to really escalate it and extrapolate it to dating, I mean, I don't know if you guys know, there's a whole sub-society of seductionists, of guys that are pickup artists. Jesus. No, but it's true, there is. And there was like, there was an era, I think a few years ago, where they were highlighted all over the place where these are the techniques that you can use to build yourself confidence, to hire your chances of finding a mate, right? And again, I don't know all these tactics, but I can tell you it's that mental memory, leading to muscle memory, leading to that development of a reflex. And then that's when you're able to fine-tune your ability to identify that it's not the right time to go in. And if you do go on, you just nibble or just drop a little seed here and there, see if it works. If not, you're fine, okay? So that's kind of the thinking there. Go ahead buddy, sorry. No, I mean, you know, he makes a great point. I was thinking of the readings of Voltaire, and that guy goes back 400 years, and how he was dating and how he would seduce women. So it's just like trading. You know, you can read some old books and it's the same thing. I mean, the candlesticks that comes from Japan from hundreds and hundreds of years ago. So it's there. It's just a matter of sitting down and reading it and getting it down to a reflex. Guys, one sec. I'm just gonna go check on the kids real quick, because apparently you're only adult home right now. Hold on. He doesn't even know if he has kids there or not. But yeah, no, I love that. And like, Woody, how do you plan on growing from here? Like, what is your kind of your next steps as a trader? Because obviously as we said, you're always growing and developing. So how are you gonna take this analogy and compare it and use it to how you're gonna grow? Yeah, you know, I mean, my days, and this is where Bal and I are very similar. We didn't know each other prior to the MIC, but I'm an OTC trader. And I, like Friday, OTC was all it. And my biggest fear, and that's part of joining the MIC, was I was what I call myself a one-trick pony. All I knew was OTC. And all I heard the rider joining the MIC was OTC is gonna die. OTC is gonna die. So for me, I'm all about having more than one trick. So my problem now is when I wake up in the morning, it's like, which one am I gonna trade today? So I'm trying to look at, from that perspective, and I can't tell you how much I love it. I can make $1,000 on any system, but I have to be focused on only one. So my brain has to stay focused on that one. And that's the problem I'm having right now as an older trader. But I am not a one-trick pony. MIC has opened me to multiple levels. And I'm very thankful, but now it's coming down to how do I focus on that one and be really good at that one? Because you know, as anyone else, when you have four or five stocks trading at once, it's hard. Well, now imagine trading four or five different types of stocks, but there's three different types of setups and patterns for three different markets. And that's where I get in the end of the day. I'm like, okay, I gotta go trade. Yeah, there's like three different cars. I just wanna chime in real quick where, I mean, when you're older, sometimes it, like not necessarily being older, but when you're an older trader, you know, you've seen so much and it's so easy to kind of like get scarred from a prior memory or it's usually happened a million times and now it's not going this way, you know? It's like, you know, Tiger Woods after he friggin' crashed his car and got the divorce and he couldn't play golf anymore. Fuck that hooker. Yeah, you know, there's a ton of things that, you know, that can happen to you. You can somehow feel that you're not doing as well. Like it's a performance sport and to perform at such an intense, high level for so long. It really does take a lot of energy and a lot of effort. You know, like you look at Bao, like, like Bao is just like, for him to be able to still be on that level for how long he's been trading is- So he's Tom Brady. He's Tom fucking Brady. It's really insane because there's so many times where you can get caught in like a squeeze and then you don't feel confident, you don't feel confident and you don't want to go back in. You don't want to go back in, you know? But you're like, is there something wrong with me? Is there something wrong with whatever? You start to second guess and then you kind of go down that alleyway as well. So I think necessarily being an older trader is not like, I mean, I've heard people before the, oh, I've been trading for 11 years. I know this game inside and out, but it's like, no, like it's constantly evolving. It's constantly adapting. It's constantly changing and you need to really be on top of your game to just keep performing every single day and just being able to really give it your all to just push yourself forward, you know? You know, the one thing I can say that I've noticed a difference is like, when I first joined MIC, I was arrogant. There's no doubt about it. Looking at you guys like, it's all freaking half my age. Well, that is the worst fucking thing I should ever have said because I have to humble myself and say, look, you know, you have to throw out what they are doing. You have to start from scratch. And it's even harder because you have to erase those memory reflexes. So you have to absolutely humble yourself about, he humbles himself every freaking day. He is constantly listening and adapting to it. So I've had to relearn humility and, you know, no doubt there was some questions in my head if I was going to pull it off. And I still have issues. There's no doubt about that. But I'm still around. I'm still trying to do what I do. I got to keep my, you know, state absolutely humble or I will get slaughtered, you know? And it's a young trader doesn't have that. And you all will see that in a couple of years, like, I've been doing this, you know, then my son's starting to train and he's kicking y'all's ass. And you'll be like, oh, I'll teach him. And then all of a sudden you're in big trouble. So humility is absolutely key. And it's no different than when you go to the park. Girls know instantly, if you're an arrogant SOB and they will drop you like a brick. It's the same thing. You've got to be humble. You've got to be cool about it. Yeah. And truthfully, guys, I mean, just to kind of put it in very succinctly, it's not how long you've been trading. It's how well you've been trading. 100%. 100%. I know guys who've been trading for 10 years who still struggle. You know, it's not, length is not, it has nothing to do with it in my opinion. Screen time, yes, but no, I agree. And dude, right now my struggle has been like, I see everyone making boatloads of money all the time. And like, to be honest, and I've been doing well, but it's like, I'm just trying to outperform myself right now. And like you were saying, it's like, this is a humbling experience with them. I'm looking at these charts and like, I know where I enter and know where I cover. And like, you know, in a normal market stance, I would have had a much better cover, a much better entry. And I think right now, like keeping your head down and keeping like focused on what you know is just so, so important. And keeping humble, like what he said. Yeah, humility is so, so important. I mean, I have to say, it's one of the most important virtues. It really, really is. Yeah. I think that's what new traders have such an advantage about is that they are humbled up to sit down and read it. And someone like me can be a little ass about like watching videos. I mean, on and I say to each other every morning, we all start at zero. It doesn't make you 10K yesterday or lost 10K yesterday. We all start at zero. And that's just the way of humbling myself saying, forget what you did yesterday. You're at zero. That's where you are today. You have a chance of being bowed today. Not saying you're going to, but you have a chance. Yeah. That's true. I mean, how many times have you had killer days or whatever killer week and then done something stupid and blew it up or lost it all. And like, I mean, I'm just again, like I keep saying I'm looking at these charts. These were A plus setups for longs and shorts. Like they really, seriously, I mean, there was a setup in there for everybody. And if you're too arrogant and you're too cocky, you just, you miss it. I mean, I have a, my background on my phone, I was telling Harry the other night we're both trash, we're just laughing. But my background is a tweet from him that says in between the lines, it's just noise. And basically like that's what it is. Which is a bow. Which is, yeah, I want a bad quote, but it was something Harry tweeted and I loved it. And it's my background because it just reminds me like in between the lines is arrogance and not having humility. It's not patience and it's all the bad virtues. But if you can wait for your lines, you have all of those features and you have the best chance of success. And you'll take advantage of every opportunity. Yeah. Great guys. Guys, I'm going to have to slowly wrap it up. Only reason why is kids are getting itchy upstairs and I'm going to take a moment. That's fine. So before we wrap it up, so what are the two from both of you biggest pieces of advice is for new traders and experienced and everyone kind of in MIC? What do you want to start? You know, I can say, and it's so simple. And you know, being an MIC member just get a freaking tab, just get a tab. I mean, it will shorten that learning curve. You know, when you ask educated questions to the moderators and they know that you've talked to other traders, you get so much more feedback. Yes, ESI, you know, the tab manager, whatever. But there's so many guys that help this program make it what it is. It will shorten your learning curve and I will keep working with you guys until you find one. You know, I may not be the fastest of finding one, but I'm looking. I'm looking. So hit me up or, you know, hit up the channel, whatever it takes, you know. And I love good time. I mean, there's like I said, some stories that just pick the curve of all stones, but it is, it is also, I mean, I'm a true Darwinian. I'm true Darwinian about adaptation to trading, adaptation to the market. This stuff with GameStop, it wasn't around a year ago. This is a new variable. You have to adapt to a good or bad, long or short, whatever it is. And my two cents, just because I've received quite a few texts from quite a few traders on getting hurt in the market is risk management. Putting your stops, I mean, use technology if you need to to help you, force the stops in, even if when you place an order. But whatever, however you do it, just putting your stops because you know what, stops keep you safe. Yeah, you lose a little bit of money, the stops keep you safe. And I'd rather make money than be right, right? Cause that's a very common phrase that, you know, you know, Albao and Alex get over and over again. You know, your goal is to make money. And to make money, you can't lose money. Or you can't lose money. So put in those stops because a lot of times you're wrong. And I'm wrong a lot of times too. But the stops you save, so don't blow up. I think that's something I wanted to add before we kind of wrap up too is like. I want to add something before you. Yeah, of course, of course. And I was just like, I wrote this down for myself that I'm looking at these stocks and I'm seeing how small size can make you a lot of money. But small size can also lose you a lot of money if you're not using it on 2000 shares, a 15 cent stop, right? If you're going by your line, 10 cents, 15 cents, 200 bucks, 250 bucks. Who cares? You got a little slippage, 300 bucks. But if you have that and you protect your downside, the upside is so, I mean, 2000 shares on JG. I mean, it went from 13 to four, five. I mean, you know, I'm not saying everyone holds the whole move, but you make thousands of dollars. And it is just protecting your downside and keeping your arrogance level low and having stops and just being okay with being wrong. Yeah, so true, so true. Yeah, I agree with that as well where it's like, you know, know the risk management, know when you're going to stop out, don't be cocky, don't be arrogant, be humble. And also like, don't like draw your lines at the start of the day and just leave them. You know, so many times people have FOMO, they start adjusting things, they start doing things that aren't working. And then all of a sudden they're taking big losses and they're saying, well, I'm trading the lines, but you're not trading the lines that you drew before. You're just readjusting, redoing, and you know, changing things around. And that's leading to you, you know, not making money because when you're in a trade or when you're, when you have FOMO, when you're in those states, like you're, it's almost like you're drunk, right? You're out of it. You're not thinking logically. You're thinking based off motion. So it's really important that you just, you know, draw your lines, do what you had before in the pre-market when you were kind of sober. And then when you're kind of drunk or like drugged up or whatever, you know, I don't know how else to say it, but when you're in those states, don't readjust them and just do what you had planned, follow your plan and the money will come. But if you start chasing, moving around, adjusting things, you know, getting squirmy when the stocks move in a little bit, you know, you can't do that because that is why most people are losing because they have FOMO, they're thinking off of motion and they're not thinking logically. Yeah, how many times have you adjusted a line to have it and hit your initial line and work out perfectly? 100%. Billion. And me and An were talking on the phone for a long time and I remember the day when he, we both just had, it's like an epiphany all the time. It's like, dude, you just, you wait for your line. If you're early, you get burned. If you're early, you get burned. No matter what, long or short, you can get burned. But if you have the discipline and the patience and you can kind of keep yourself in check, I mean, the sky's the limit in this. And I think that, I think that you're using these analogies that kind of An and Woody have brought to light is great. And I think a lot of guys are gonna benefit from it, like tremendously. 100%. Well, actually, Eric bought a great point, you know, the lines are equivalent to beers. So the more beers you have, that means the further the lines you're going and that's the further you're denying your reality and the stronger the emotion comes out. So the draw can be equal to be an emotional. So you have to learn when to catch yourself off at the bar. Yeah, hell yeah. You can't do it, call your buddy, aka tab, and make them yell at you, pull you off the bar. Yeah. Everybody pull you off the bar. Yeah. On you had to pull me out of the bar a few times. A few times we've been there. But no, thank you guys for coming on. I think that hearing from experienced traders and guys who are a little older, sometimes it gives people, especially younger guys or even like me, it gives me like reassurance that, you know, you're heading the right direction and things are good. And so I would love to have you guys back even talk about more stuff. I know people are gonna love this. So thank you guys. Well, to be honest, I really hate you and Harry. I really do hate you guys because you all are so freaking young and you have not gone through the crap that Ann and I has gone through. And so the world is your freaking oyster. It really is. To be so young and have the world being your oyster and have your passion and you can make money at your passion, I hate you. I really do. That's just somewhere we'll leave. You know what? Let's go ahead and watch we hate you at the bar. Yeah. What is about the bar? I mean, it's like the young guys still in the hot shit. Yeah, whatever. We get to use your battle scars and keep it going. But well, thank you again, guys. And thanks again. All right, first it is. At least they're guys. Yeah. Yeah.