 Today we're going to talk about Jeffrey Dahmer, he's also known as the Milwaukee cannibal or the Milwaukee monster. There's a serial killer and he committed a bunch of murders and eight people back between 1978 and 1991. Greg Brown should tell us about the videos we're going to watch. Well I don't think there's a whole lot more to add to that with that grandiose entry other than he's talking to Stone Phillips who I believe was at ABC at the time and his father is there. His father's just written a book about his growing up and all of that and he's talking about what he learned from the book in the process. It's an interesting one, he might be one of Scott's favorite people, maybe not, let's see. Hi Jeffrey, how are you? Good to see you. Good to see you. Good to see you. Good to see you. Hi Jeff. Nice to see you. Hi Mr. Phillips. Hi Jeff. Nice to see you. Nice to see you. It's been the last few days with your folks talking about a lot of different things. Now you're lucky you came up on a day when there's no snow, it was snowing like crazy all weekend. How are things going here for you? Slow and steady. Nothing out of the ordinary really. You've read the book? Yes, yes I read the book. My dad sent it to me about last week and spent all night reading it. I was up all night reading it. It was quite a surprise to me some parts of it. Very interesting. In what sense? Just some of the things that were revealed caught me off guard. And just some very big surprises in it for me. What was it that caught you off guard? Some of his insights into what he thought of me as I was growing up. All right if you don't know who we are, we're the behavior panel. And I'm Scott Rouse. I'm a body language expert and analyst and I train law enforcement in the military in interrogation and body language. And I created the number one online body language course Body Language Tactics with Greg Hartley. Mark? I'm Mark Bowden. I'm an expert in human behavior and body language. Help people all over the world to stand out, win trust, gain credibility. Every time they communicate including some of the leaders of the G7. Chase? Hey, I'm Chase Hughes. I did 20 years in the US military and wrote the number one bestselling book in behavior profiling, influence and persuasion. And I teach people how to do exactly that. Greg? I'm Greg Hartley. I'm a former Army interrogator, interrogation instructor, resistance to interrogation instructor. I've written 10 books on body language and behavior. Put together this number one body language tactics course with Scott. And that's been my time in corporate America. All right, Greg, what do you got? Yeah, this is an interesting one because we get to see some baseline for a serial killer. A guy who, this was, his acts were beyond even the craziest serial killer as we found. He kept body parts, all kinds of things he'll talk about through here. But it's a good baseline, very Midwestern, very Milwaukee. Slow pauses as he thinks what he's going to say. Make small talk. You're having small talk about the snow with a serial killer. Interesting. We haven't seen that before. Usually the guys want to tell you how grand they are in some way or another. He doesn't. He does a whole lot of down left and down right eye accessing. And when you're ready to get someone to confess, you see a lot of that. It's internal. What does that mean? Internal? What does that mean? I also run into that a lot in corporate America. And the people who do that, I typically find to be kinesthetic learners and people who feel when they're making a decision, feelings are tied up tightly in it. So it's an interesting thing to pay attention to have worked with vice presidents of companies who do this a lot. Never make eye contact except for to make their point. And it's not that they're doing anything wrong. It's just how their brain works. We do see some concern in his face right in here. I spent all night reading it. And that gives him an area to focus on. That would give me an area to focus on conversation. What about that? What about that caused you concern? Let's talk about it. The ah, when he says ah there is a little bit longer than in the beginning. And he does lip retraction in when he said some parts were quite surprising. Raise forehead and internal thought when he was like, well, as his face goes well, that's probably about as close as you get to a while from a guy who is a Midwestern very contained guy. I see a rub between him and his father. It's rigid and wooden now given that culture plays a part in that. But I think we'll see a lot more of this as things go. Mark, what do you got? Yeah, really interesting. Like the interviewer on this because he takes him through the conversational levels really, really fast. It's almost like a fast induction going into self assessment. So let me just explain what he's doing there. Nice, nice to see you. That's just fatigue communication. Nice to see you. And the other person is meant to say, yeah, great to see you. And there is that kind of exchange. Like you said, Greg, into the weather, great fatigue. Fatigue means customary, great customary communication. So they're now talking about the weather. You might go, OK, well, this is really going nowhere. But it starts to escalate pretty quickly. How are things going? Again, this is fatigue. This is customary, slow and steady. It's a non-answer. But it's the answer that you should give. You shouldn't be giving too much information at this point. Right. Now we're into data. Did you read the book? Yes. It's a yes or no answer. OK, so that's great. It gives a yes answer. But then he's straight into evaluation and emotion. Quite a surprise. OK, so emotion is the surprise piece. Quite a surprise. He's evaluated it on a scale. Well, this is really good because we've got him from, hey, it's snowing out. You know, how are you doing? It's snowing outside slow and steady to, actually, I've just been quite surprised back there. OK, so this is really interesting. Now, self-reflection. It caught me off guard. So that's really interesting because the interviewer then comes in on that as he should and goes, what is it exactly that caught you off guard about this? And we get a revelation that there might be some accuracy to this book because he says the insights what he thought of me as a child. So I'm going to speculate that there's something in this book that I understand his father has written, which Dharma believes is actually insightful. He thinks it could be very, very accurate and accurate about his childhood. So great start here because we're into the potentially, and of course, he could be making stuff up. He could be a complete liar. He could be he could be duping everybody. I get that. But that escalated pretty quickly and I'm going to say it's absolutely accurate that there is some stuff in that book that is that is true about how Dharma sees his childhood. Chase, what do you think? I agree. And since you're watching this right now, you have met a psychopath before. There is no doubt about it. And in all likelihood, you were in zero danger. So as we say the term psychopath, there's a distinction that I'd like to make at the outset of this. There's a difference between violent psychopath and just a psychopath. And these people do not choose to be this way 99% of the time. So you probably also enjoyed that conversation when you met the psychopath too. I had never seen this video before and you see this head tilt on this entrance. I was walking almost robotically and I didn't know who this guy was that he was walking towards. I thought that's probably his dad or something because of this. You can see the social behavior familiarity in the head tilt before they get close to each other. This is preparation for a hug where Dharma knows which side his head's going to go during the embrace. The lack of arm movement. He's got this rigid body language. And this is not a psychopath indicator, but it does show here from just the outset, the person is more likely to be uncomfortable trying to control or relax themselves and this bodily control that's exerted here is unconscious. And the rigidity comes from the desire to just exert some kind of control. So he's kind of running human OS. He's running the human operating system right now. So right there on his forehead, when we are expressive a lot and we express ourselves often, they kind of etch themselves onto our face. My forehead has got little wrinkles on it but you can't see on Zoom. But there's a lack of conversational interaction and response here. His forehead is baby smooth right here, which means he's spent a lifetime not performing an eyebrow flash, which we commonly do when we greet people. These are social skills. So just looking at the lack of wrinkles on the face can give us some indicator of who we might be speaking with in this situation. Scott, what do you got? I agree with you, especially on the part about the eyebrows. Quite often someone on the autistic scale won't use those a whole lot. That's something I know a while back. So we're dealing with an interesting... I'm not going into the whole personality stuff. I don't do that, but it's definitely an interesting personality type we're dealing with here. When he first comes in, he says, hello, Mr. Phillips, like his buddies with him or something. We're being really respectful and he seems like this meek and mild kind of guy. Then we see lip compression when he's asked about the book. He says, oh, it's quite a surprise to me, parts of it. So that was kind of interesting that sort of containing himself from maybe not anger, but just containing any emotions he may throw out there at that point. And I think that probably indicates he probably wasn't pleased with what he read in there for some parts of it. I'm sure some parts that he liked. But what I thought was interesting, he didn't go into talking about himself and the book and sort of making it, the grandiose thing you would do if a book was about you, if you're a psychopath. So I thought that was really interesting as well. There are a couple other things, but nothing big. His breath and blink rate seem fairly normal. His vocal canes in tone are fairly straight. Like there's not a lot going on. And he seems and looks like a nice quiet little person there. Somebody who's very calm and you wouldn't have much trouble out of at this point. So that's what I got. I can't be good. Yeah. All right. Good. Hi, Jeff. Sherry. How are you? Good to see you. Good to see you. Hi, Jeff. Nice to see you. Hi, Mr. Phil. Nice to see you. Nice to see you. It's been the last few days with your folks. Great. Talking about a lot of different things. How are you? You came up on a day when there's no snow. Was snowing like crazy all weekend? Is that right? How are things going here for you? Slow and steady. Nothing. Nothing out of the ordinary, really. You've read the book? Yes. Yes, I read the book. My dad sent it to me about last week and spent all night reading it. I was up all night reading it. It was quite a surprise to me some parts of it. Very interesting. In what sense? Just some of the things that were revealed caught me off guard. And just some very big surprises enough for me. What was it that caught you off guard? Some of his insights into what he thought of me as I was growing up. Okay, I'll take a deep breath. Your dad comes here to visit about once a month. But I get the impression that the two of you don't talk a lot about everything that happened, about the crimes in particular. No, we don't discuss that because it's been gone over so thoroughly in the papers and the media that there's just really no point in going in-depth into any in-depth talks about it. We talk about our family, home, how things used to be, what prison life is here, is like here now. And try to keep things as light and upbeat as possible. Is it hard for you to go back and talk about those things? No, not the good things. In fact, it gives me a sense of comfort to talk about the few good times there were in the past. You say the few good times. Do you think of your childhood as having been profoundly unhappy? No, not profoundly. My childhood wasn't filled with any great tragedies or anything. There were good times and there were bad times. I think it was fairly normal. All right, Mark, what do you got? Yeah, so first of all, watch for the different breathing patterns in the two people who are subjects here. Interesting. It's very easy for us to pay all our attention to Dharma because he's the, let's just say, celebrity here. But there's another important person in there, which is the father, clearly, you know, a genetic relationship. And they did live together and spend time together. Dharma was brought up by his father to some extent. And so, you know, there's a familiar relationship there. So what is familiar about them, whether breathing patterns aren't familiar at this point? Dharma, super relaxed. I mean, just super calm. So that's interesting. His father, quite an anxious breathing rate, their blink rate, totally different. So there feels to me some anxiety in the father that isn't held by the son at this point. Both of them in an interview. So both under some of the same stresses. So does one of them deal with anxiety or stress in a very, very different way than the other? Quite likely. Okay. A few good times. And there is a full kind of lip retraction there from Dharma. And the interviewer picks up on that, rightly a few good times. So it picks up on that and digs into this idea of was childhood really a good one. It's indifferent to that question. But I already start to guess that the reason the father is there and the reason the father is writing this book has to be something about looking into that childhood and potentially I would guess his responsibility around that. Who is responsible? What is responsible for these acts that have gone on? I'm already thinking, why is the father shown up for this? Why has he written a book? It has to be something about the abdication of some kind of responsibility around this probably. Now there's some mirroring. There's potentially some mirroring between the two and that started to interest me as I see Dharma gesture and then we get a little one from the father. Are they not instinct with their breathing but is there some gestural synchronicity there? So I already start to think, by the way, I've not seen this interview before and as usual have very little idea about who Dharma is. I only just learned now that he ate people. So that's kind of interesting. I think I maybe saw a film about him once but I don't remember it very well and I know he's a big celebrity in this area but I already start to think what are the similarities between the father and son and what are the differences between the father and the son? They both grew up somewhat together. One went from not a father to a father with that son and the other the son went from a child to an adult with that father. What are there going to be the similarities between them and what are going to be the differences? That's what interests me here. Greg, what have you got on this one? Yeah, I wonder. I don't know this to be a fact but I wonder if there's not a reason he's a little calmer. He may be having some pharmaceuticals in the system concerning who he is and he's in prison. So if you've got a guy who has notoriously murdered this many people, do you want to keep? I don't know. I don't know if that's the case or not but he is awfully calm. You're right. Respiration is different from his father. The mirroring may just be biological mirroring. For example, if I were around my father, he would say I'm mirroring and in fact I just move and act exactly like he did because of the way we're built and all those things as well as the fact you're raised by him. So there's some of that but there's an interesting piece. He is leaned almost out of frame to get away from his father for some reason. There's some baggage in this family that's pronounced that we can't see. I read in a secondary article that his father claimed that Dahmer was raped or sexually assaulted by the neighbor boy when he was eight years old and he thinks it may have had some impact. That may be in the book, don't know but that creates a whole new dynamic around why Dahmer may have all of these, all this baggage and the father may have it. If you look at Jeffrey, he's playing with a cup when they say let's all just take a breath. I wonder what's edited out before I found that video because we watched the interview but there was nothing in there before that made everybody animated. There must have been some animation for Stone Phillips to say let's just take a breath. Your father is probably arguably, depending on your relationship and your situation, the first real hardcore authority figure in your life because they're usually the stop, wait till your father gets home, especially the generation he's from where your father was the person who would deal out corporal punishment if that was the case. So of course he's going to have more deference to him even if he hates him, even if there's baggage, you'll still have that but his blink rate and Mark, I agree with you, I wrote the same stuff down. His blink rate and his respiration are so calm compared to his dad. Maybe his dad's afraid of how it's perceived because it's the first time he's talked to him. I would say the key words where he said the few good times, people don't use words casually. That means something. That means most of my life was hell. There were a few good times and then when he said fairly normal, I don't see this again in the entire thing. He pats his feet many times. This one he goes boom, boom, pitter pat. Ding, ding, something's up. Something's up in his head right there and if you're interrogating this guy, you want to ask hey, why is the baggage, why are you leaning so far away from your friend? What's going on? Those are the kinds of things that we as interrogators see as source leads and we're going to pick up more of those as we go through this. Scott, what do you got? All right. Now he's supposed to be close with his dad but he said like you were saying, Greg, he's sitting at an angle away from him and when Stone Phillips says your dad comes to visit about once a month he adjusts to his chair and there's such a violent back history with his father. I think that comment from Stone Phillips makes him uncomfortable. And after the first question, the father's blink rate skyrockets and he might be thinking about all the horrible things that went on when they had a home and they was married and had Jeffrey as a little kid and all that and he may even feel a little bit guilty about all that or he may be afraid that Dahmer's going to say something about him that makes him look bad. Something that would be, I don't know how much worse you can get than having to send that eight people and all the killed people named him but maybe there's something in there that would be even worse that he did to him or something. Who knows? And I think it's interesting when he says talking about the few good times that were in the past that gives him a sense of comfort and after that we see him even longer lip compression. I think the lip compression at this point is performing two tasks. The number one being in queue that lets us know is stresses or that stresses him and then number two it's an adapter. I think quite often we're seeing adapters in this case for him because I think we're actually seeing some emotions on this guy and it's odd for a psychopath and for someone to be raised in a situation where you possibly have a narcissistic parent that's hardcore like that you watch everything you say you're very protective about everything and you keep all those things in. You contain all those emotions and things. So part of the lip compression may be him trying to keep in those emotions trying not to let something out that he doesn't want let out. When he's asked about his childhood we see a combination of a lip person and a chin jut. Since there's a lot going on at the house when he's a little kid that suggests that the lip person is a dislike for somebody he knows or something he heard or something a situation or a person in that home or that situation and I think it's probably the dad. So the combination of both of those together the lip person and the chin jut which that usually indicates anger towards someone or that situation I think he might be talking about his dad in a situation. So yeah, I won't go any further than that for that but that's what I think is happening there. Then he says his childhood and home are fairly normal. Now if I was a betting man I would say that we're seeing body language with someone again from a perspective of having a narcissistic parent who is really strict on him and from what? From all reports and from what all I've seen I haven't seen a whole lot on this guy either but he keeps going back to the father doesn't even live with him anymore didn't live with him anymore because he was he yelled and was violent. I don't know if he was hitting him but apparently there was a lot of yelling and throwing stuff in the house. So I think there's a lot of things that show us he's containing his emotions maybe so he doesn't blow up and do something to his dad or whoever's there because if you got somebody that killed people and then eats them there's a lot going on there from a psychological standpoint and if you're trying to hold your emotions in maybe he got to a point where he couldn't hold his emotions in for whatever reason with those people who would do that too. So I think maybe that's what the situation is there a narcissistic parent father in that situation. Alright Chase what do you got? Yeah you guys covered a whole lot let's talk about the interviewer then this when this clip comes back on the screen you're going to see this the interviewer uses elicitation perfectly here. Okay let's take all take a deep breath your dad comes here to visit about once a month but I get the impression that the two of you don't talk a lot about everything that happened about the crimes in particular. He uses a statement to start getting those topics to come out to start getting the more sensitive stuff to come out and there's a guy named John Nolan who wrote a whole book about this called Confidential and in this book John my favorite quote of the whole book is the more sensitive information you need the less questions you should be asking and when you guys were talking about this lip retraction when he was talking about the few good times let's just turn this into a quick training opportunity this is typically a need for reassurance so when somebody is doing this the two best responses are either word repetition or reassurance to make them feel it's okay to move forward so like something like that makes sense and that's totally normal or you share a story from your own background that's very similar that minimizes the severity of whatever the comment was so the cup and his hands are both in almost genital protection mode right there where the groin is being covered if it was a woman they'd be more likely to cover the uterus area and your goal if you are a parent or in stales if you see lip retraction to do what I just said right there and if you see genital protection in sales is to get them to change that body language if you want to hand them a pen or a paper to get them to start changing and make their bodies a little bit more open that's all I got cool this is a guy just for you guys this is a guy I would if you push this guy he'd come and bolt it on you in the interrogation room I can see it I know the kind seething rage I agree seething rage okay let's take a deep breath your dad comes here to visit about once a month but I get the impression that that the two of you don't talk a lot about everything that happened about the crimes in particular no we don't discuss that because it's been it's been gone over so thoroughly in the papers in the media that there's just really no point in going in depth into any in-depth talks about it we talk about our family home how things used to be what prison life is here is like here now and try to keep things as light and upbeat as possible is it hard for you to go back and talk about those things? no not the good things in fact it gives me a sense of comfort to talk about the few good times there were in the past you say the few good times do you think of your childhood as having been profoundly unhappy? no not profoundly my childhood wasn't filled with any any great tragedies or anything there were good times and there were bad times I think it was fairly normal one of your dad's biggest questions is when you began to slip away when you crossed over into this world of obsession or dark fantasy from which you just couldn't return can you pinpoint that? is there a sense for when that really began to happen with you Jeff? I think it was around age 14 or 15 started having obsessive thoughts of violence intermingled with sex and it just got worse and worse I didn't know how to tell anyone about it so I just kept it all inside do you have any sense for where that was coming from? no no I've talked with a few psychologists about it they have their theories but they don't have any concrete answers either do you have a theory? no not really I don't know where it came from I probably will never know but I never dreamed that it would become a reality that still helps this pretty good interviewer sounds really good looks really good too alright chase what you got so the interviewer during this interviewer question he holds his hand out choking someone and then he motions cutting someone's head off I don't think it was conscious but it's certainly pretty clear that to me he was probably processing that information in his own mind during the question and this is kind of one of the most honest interviews that we've done as far as we can see so far anyway there's a lot of emotional accessing going on and as a quick question pro tip always place the victim or the emotional person to someone's right if you're interviewing two people you want to place the other party to that person's right so that if they do recall some kind of emotion their eyes are moving towards the person you have them in the room with and they're getting a visual cue to help with that emotion so you get more emotion out of the interview Mark, what do you get? Yeah, nice. Right to the end of that piece I never dreamed that it would become a reality so that's wish fulfillment that is that's a classic of psychology is your fantasy your fantasy becomes a reality and so he's already starting to verbalize that incredible fit I mean imagine it for yourself this is that the world would line up so they actually became reality this is what has happened to him and he's telling us that straight it's very honest in many ways the interviewer which I think so far really great interviewer minimizes by going crossed over when did you cross over around the going so when did you start eating people when did you cross over so it's a beautiful gentle metaphor for a monstrous act the father shows disgust at that point and we get a little hand raised from as well so clearly the father knows what's being talked about here what crossing over actually means he's emotionally activated by that however the father then to the story of this gets very strong eye contact with the subject I mean they get eye contact I mean he's targeting his son and as he his son recounts the story there's no shame there's no eye blocking from the father my expectation if it were my son I understand unconditional love and all that kind of stuff but even so you know had my son targeted people and at them I might have personally some shame in front of the TV cameras and maybe a bit of eye blocking going I can't even I just can't visualize this even for myself I don't want to look at this the father is very attentive of the son at the moment now at this point I had no idea about what the father's going to say and I start to go okay well how similar are these two how similar are they how engaged is actually the father in the idea of fantastic violence is that actually something that intrigues him and is is he's very curious about in a way that I think I wouldn't be if I were in that situation anyway interesting oh red flag goes up for me on that around the father we already know there's plenty red flags around the son that's a given do you have a theory no not really okay so maybe you do maybe you do have a theory maybe you do have a theory about that he says he probably will never know oh so there's a chance there's a chance you have a theory and there's a chance you might know why you did these things so at this point in the interview I'm intrigued by he's not discounting that he has zero idea why this happened and he will never know why it happened Scott what do you got on this one all right when that first question comes out and he asks him when that odd behavior began that's when Adama adjusts in his seat and I think it's because he's uncomfortable obviously but he's preparing his answer because I don't think he's really thought about that very much and we're not seeing the facial expressions in classic signs of structuring an answer that we always talk about on here it just seems like it's coming in the question goes in and he's sort of answering off the cuff now when it comes to his vocal tone his vocal tones voice and his facial expressions or the lack of facial expressions so far to me this does not seem like somebody who is looking for attention he's not doing things for the camera you know he's not using a lot of illustrators he's very calm and quiet his answers are short to the point and fairly simple not a whole lot going on with him and not a whole lot going on is brow either and I just get the feeling this isn't it's an odd situation when you have someone who's done the horrific things this guy's done but we're seeing emotions and we're not seeing the classic signs of psychopathy where he wants attention and he's looking for ways to make himself to you know to grand in how do you say in grand eyes grand eyes himself and make himself look cool grand eyes yeah okay himself and make himself look cool we're not seeing any of that and that's that's really puts me at a little crossroads here at this point with what we're dealing with here even though he's done horrific stuff we're still seeing a lot of things that say he's not a psychopath up to this point so far Greg what do you got? Yeah this is an interesting one for me because I said to you guys I see seething rage I feel like if I pushed this guy hard enough he would come unglued and interrogation and I think I could push him hard enough with his father sitting right there just by being soft doing a soft approach so Jeffrey tell me which father did you when you were a kid that made you feel this way and just push him and push him until they get them talking and you start digging and you tear the scab off what's going there I think there's some rage there it feels like there's an awful big gap between these two people now midwestern folks aren't the huggy type always and that kind of thing but you don't sit like that to get away from your father at the same time so there's something going on there and he's quite comfortable talking about what he did where we see discomfort is why he did it how he felt watch pay attention from here on out because there's a condemning nod and disappointment mouth that pull back in the mouth on both sides it would become a reality I think when he starts talking about internal things about how he feels he starts to get really uncomfortable but he's okay telling you to cut somebody up put them in a box, kept their head as a trophy because it's known fact it gives you this feeling that okay there's feelings in there he's okay and he's not embarrassed to talk about the horrific actions he did but he may be uncomfortable talking about why and how he feels that would be where we dig in and we start to attack him let's pay attention to that moving on I think that's a sign of a heavy introvert lots of stuff in his background and we could dig it out that's all I got one of your dad's biggest questions is when you began to slip away when you crossed over into this world of obsession or dark fantasy from which you just couldn't return can you pinpoint that is there a sense for when that really began to happen with you Jeff? I think it was around age 14 or 15 started having obsessive thoughts of violence intermingled with sex and it just got worse and worse I didn't know how to tell anyone about it so I didn't just kept it all inside do you have any sense for where that was coming from? no no I've talked with a few psychologists about it they have their theories but they don't have any concrete answers either do you have a theory? no, not really I don't know where it came from I probably will never know but I never dreamed that it would become a reality what was it Jeff that took you over the edge do you think? made you take this from the world of fantasy into reality from 15 on I had this reoccurring fantasy of meeting a hitchhiker on the road of taking him hostage and doing what I wanted of three years later I was 14 years old driving home I saw this hitchhiker about a mile from my house thought to myself should I stop and pick him up or should I just keep on going I wish I just kept on going but I didn't turned around, picked him up and that's when the nightmare became a reality it just seemed so bizarre to me that this obsession that I had been thinking about and wanting all the parts are there and they make it possible to make it happen what happened after you took him to the house? the house was empty my mother was up in Chippewa Falls with her family and my dad was living in a rented motel about five miles away due to the divorce and I pretty much had the place to myself I was drinking a lot during that time and just I don't know looking for something to some way to find some fulfillment some some pleasure and I acted on my fantasies and that's where everything went wrong alright Mark what do you got? yeah it could be the edit but it looks to me like the father lifts his head in approval to beckon forward this answer around what took you over the edge so the father is either very interested in wanting to know what takes him over the edge well there may be even approval and wanting to move forward because of the way that question has been framed because it's not framed as what pushed you over the edge what's implied is there's something that kind of takes you there's another conscious element that draws you over rather than something pushes you against your will so there's just some interesting wording there that I'm starting to believe at this point the father might like because it abdicates him it already starts to abdicate him somewhat from any responsibility of being part of this system that might produce this monster so what's interesting and Dharma starts to get quite activated now we see his legs start to kind of skip up I think as you were describing before Greg on excitement picked him up ok so picking somebody up nightmare became reality mother at Chippewa falls so there's some ideas there of everything falling into place for his fantasy to become a reality I mean you know imagine what fantasy you might have and going but what if these events started to just fall into place and your brain's going it's all starting to become true at what point do you then go well what do I need to do to push this forward even more or is it just his life just going to you know play cards in front of me to make my fantasy a reality he says drinking a lot and then are and there's something he doesn't say there but there's contempt on his face at that point looking for something to to find fulfillment ok there's two gaps there I would want to know what is the what is not being fulfilled what is he need what is what is the gap there that he's having to do this act to fulfill because there is some story there about it's it's violence and sexuality mixed together and it's the fulfillment of that but I think there's a possibility that there are some gaps in his life gaps in his childhood potentially and there's some wish fulfillment that needs to be acted on there that you know if the mother is away if the mother is away what is the wish fulfillment that you might act on if the mother is not there to watch this and and the cards got played in front of you anyway really interesting I want to know what is that gap that he feels contempt for and I wonder if it's sitting next to him I don't know but I wonder if it is chase what do you go to this one yeah great stuff and let's just go aside from behavior or nonverbal behavior in this one clip alone he refers to it as a nightmare and then later a fantasy and I think this should illustrate to you how important it is to pay attention to this how people use descriptors and language to describe their actions is a big deal when he says the house was empty it's a small digital flexion on the dad that's the one thing I'll just talk about here with this so for me I think this probably a point of personal regret something around the divorce or leaving him alone whatever it is this would trigger for me a later conversational question about the dad at later in the interview and if you have kids three things to do really quick number one what am I doing to make them more confident even if you have to do it what am I doing to make them feel significant in their life and number three identify where your kids dopamine is coming from and modify it if necessary ensure you're guiding them by mapping out where their dopamine is coming from and that's going to be a game changer huge game changer great yeah a couple things I think his whole thing that he shows with the digital flexion your chase may not be about leaving his kid at home because he's 18 I think he says I think it's more about he's out living in a hotel because he just went through a divorce so there's probably something there but we know for sure there's some stimulus forming there with Jeffrey Dahmer we see some kind of ultra containment you see a deep swallow a dry mouth and then look at him how far he's gotten away from his father Mark I think progressively I think the stimulus may be sitting in the chair next to him maybe part of the problem remember I told you that his father has later said that he was sexually abused at eight by the neighbor but he still denied it up until his death don't know that that says there's something hidden in some shame and a whole lot of something going on there and who knows what went on in the family after that all kinds of craziness can occur he is apprehensive here we get to this discomfort remember he was he's happy to tell you about body parts and all that but he's apprehensive as he's telling this hitchhiker story and he makes quick fishing eye contact which we haven't seen he's been okay with good eye contact but he's doing the eye contact break into way and break into way as if he knows what's normal and that this isn't then he starts to talk like a text instead of like sentence structure listen to a sentence structure change he gets into he doesn't use a full sentence he goes into phrases that tells you that he's trying to get through telling you how this happened and then his legs start that whole adapting thing Mark I'm not sure where that's got of excitement for what he actually did or whether it's I got to get through this but something changes in his brain and then he goes and lets out a long breath and goes um and his cadence shifts and he starts to slowly walk through it as he's talking about the mechanics of what happened I think he knows he's going to be judged for it and everybody watching is going to judge him and there's discomfort in it and then you see a minor tongue jut that acted out fantasies and that's where everything went wrong this Scott I'm like you Bundy, Gacy, they would have never felt nothing, no shame nothing about telling you I said yeah I killed him I actually just hit him with a stick oh yeah I buried him under the house oh yeah this guy's not that it's weird because we typically associate monsters with psychopaths sometimes monsters are just monsters where? oh I forget you what do you got Scott? turn it that's fair play right I almost said a ton of it I did with that Scott Rouse the body only spraking Scott Rouse what do you got oh lord you see that at the top of the when you ask that question initially that lip compression I think again that's I think we're looking at two things here looking at an adapter as well as him trying to keep himself contained so that's really interesting this is this guy's really freaking me out because he's doing a bunch of stuff that says he's one thing but he's not doing anything that confirms that you can look at that and go oh I know what that is but you don't have anything to confirm it which is all of us have stand on and talk about that all the time about absolutes and those types of things so his behavior is one thing but the way he is his everything else the outcome of some of his behaviors say one thing but everything else says something completely different and I agree with you Greg it's we're dealing with a lot of rage here that he's keeping in and then he adjusts again in his seat during that same question he does that little seat adjustment and he knows it's going to be that's why I answer the question and he gets a little worked up here because like you were saying Mark his leg jiggles a little bit his hands he's using those as adapters as well and especially after he says that's when the nightmare became a reality that's when his leg jiggles again he adapts with that coffee cup like you guys were talking about earlier and the rest of his answer remains quiet and calm and he's not he's not showing things he should be showing that are out with what he's done it's freaking me out what was it Jeff that took you over the edge do you think and made you take this from the world of fantasy into reality from 15 on I had this reoccurring fantasy of of meeting a hitchhiker on the road and of taking him hostage and doing what I wanted of three years later I was 18 years old driving home I saw this hitchhiker about a mile from my house thought to myself should I stop and pick him up or should I just keep on going I wish I just keep on kept on going but I didn't turned around picked him up and that's when that's when the nightmare became reality it just seems so bizarre to me that this obsession that I had been thinking about and wanting just all the parts are there and they make it possible to make it happen what happened after you took him to the house the house was empty my mother was up in Chippewa Falls with her family and my dad was living in a rented motel about five miles away due to the divorce and I pretty much had the place to myself I was drinking a lot during that time and just I don't know looking for something to some way to find some fulfillment some some pleasure and I acted on my fantasies and that's where everything went wrong this was the summer of 1978 when you took your first victim right once it happened the first time it just seemed like it had control of my life from there on in the second occurrence was 1984 roughly and I met this guy at one of the downtown Milwaukee bars we went back to the hotel just planning on getting drunk I had put some sleeping pills in his drink to render him conscious and was just going to spend the night with him when I woke up in the morning my forearms were bruised and his chest was bruised and blood was coming out of his mouth he was hanging over the side of the bed and I have no memory of beating him to death but I must have and that's when it all started again and once it started again you found it impossible to stop that's when the obsession went into full swing I'm digging the stone Phelps man he's asking questions and shutting up watch him in lots of interviews he's good what do you got? I have a lot on this one what I will tell you is listen to the passive language listen to the alcohol there are agents of blame in here that are not him and you can't miss them alcohol has shown up he's mentioned it more than one time alcohol was something else I don't remember everything's in passive voice the second occurrence and he avoids talking about picking somebody up in a gay bar I've read that he had issues about his sexuality and never actually came out and said he was gay but whatever his driver he's distancing lots of distancing language from this thing he's done and we all know he's done it he's admitting it but he's still using a distancing language I don't think of folks like Bundy and Gacy and Ramirez and those guys none of them seem to care they just told you yeah I did this and I did that and I buried him in the backyard and I cut him up but this guy's using distancing language which makes it odd for me Chase what do you got? and severe aberrant behavior is almost always at the intersection of shame and fantasy coming together when those two things are together there's a ton of distancing language here but it's almost a dissociative language while he's talking about a dissociative incident which he was actually dissociated from the incident I think it's honest he's comfortable with describing the severity of the situation sensory details congruent with the truthful recall of events and I think he genuinely doesn't recall he was probably blacked out drunk and I think that there's a lot going on there there's probably just the there's a shame that's preventing some of it from coming out the shame is the only thing that's really hiding information here that's my opinion there Scott what do you got? again I think this is odd because of the gravity of the violence that must have gone on with him doing all this and he's explaining it with no motion and no illustrators his voice, his cadence and tone stay the same everythings but that still makes me feel like he's containing all that that's why I think you're right Greg I think just right under that man there's an explosion under there that could happen any second but he's just short to the point with all his answers to the question this gets more fascinating I think as we go along because with all that violence that happened he's like you were saying Greg he's not approaching this as Bundy or some of these others would it just doesn't fit in the psychopath section yet not just yet. Mark what do you got? yeah I'm in agreement it is pretty extraordinary it is something that we haven't really seen I think before he says it just seemed like it had control of my life so there's this idea of it so there is this abdication of responsibility to something else that is not particularly associated with him but he says it seemed like so he's vacillating between it was me and it wasn't me but again I don't see a lot of deception around that coming up with an idea to blame you know we've seen in other cases of monstrous acts I'm going to blame pornography and I'm going to blame this I'm going to blame society there's no blame but there's this idea of it seemed like it that's kind of it and he's so calm when he's saying that so it feels to me very very honest and truthful about this it at the same time seemed like it like which one is it can you have both at the same time maybe you can have both at the same time I have no memory of beating him to death but then his eyes do move at that point I think for approval so is there some memory is there truly no memory is there a little bit of memory again I'm not I'm not sure listen I just then dad doing there what's he doing there so why do you come here what's this really about that for me is where the interesting interview is what are you doing here again I go back to this is it about the abdication of responsibilities enjoying this idea of of it because again if it's about it he's totally non-responsible for this and then what comes up in my mind is something that was said before by Dharma in one of the previous videos where he talks about the divorce not their divorce or you know mum and dad were getting divorced the divorce so I'm just thinking there must there could be something about that instability of mum and dad not being together and most likely some other violent acts potentially sexually violent acts from the father I just don't know I don't know enough about the story that but huge instability I imagine in Dharma's childhood there which I think the father has maybe shown up to abdicate himself from there that's all I got on that one I think I got figured out why the father is there did anybody else figure it out why book sales it's the book it's the book above and beyond the book sales but no that's what because you know publicity people like well get him in we'll get him to talk to Jeffrey you know it's like one phone call they do the phone call like the old school I'll call him up and say Jeffrey we'll get him that's what it is it's about the book the book company did it one of the points you bring up about him using the it I think the it I'm going to talk about how he feels I think it's a distancing tool for him yeah because he feels really uncomfortable when he talks about what's going on in here yeah was it Stephen King who is is he count was the his book it is that Stephen King yeah it's interesting the idea of it look at Mark going to the symbolism man you go go get it well it's the thing that can't be named isn't it that even Stephen King can't name can't put a name on it but it'll it'll kill somebody like a gorilla would kill somebody I was I was going to write a book called don't mess with them they kill Kennedy they certainly did this was the summer of 1978 when you took your first victim right once it happened the first time it just seemed like it had control of my life from there on in the second occurrence was 1984 roughly and I met this guy at one of the bars downtown Milwaukee bars we went back to the hotel just planning on getting drunk I had put some sleeping pills in his drink to render him conscious and was just going to spend the night with him when I woke up in the morning my forearms were bruised and his chest was was bruised and blood was coming out of his mouth he was hanging over the side of the bed and I have no memory of beating him to death but I must have and that's when it when it all started again and once it started again you found it impossible to stop but that's when the obsession went into full swing did you ever tell yourself I have to stop this I must stop doing this yes when it was going on after the second time it seemed like the compulsion to do it was too strong and I didn't even try to stop it after that but after before the second time things had been building up gradually going to bookstores going to the bars the gay bars bath clubs when that wasn't enough buying sleeping pills and using it on various guys in the bath clubs it just escalated slowly but surely and after the second time which was not planned it was out of control felt like it was out of control alright chase what do you got I'm just going to cover one thing here right at the end when they say it's out of control there's some strong lip retraction this is precisely where the word repetition would seriously come in handy this would give him an opening to talk about it more essentially giving the reassurance that he's needing here we see this the lips going in and he says out of control all the interviewer would need to do here and the interviewer is great all he would need to do is say out of control and he would just keep going just repeat that phrase back and they will keep going so Mark what do you got yeah I mean it's an interesting area isn't it not planned out of control felt like it was out of control gets to a stage where he didn't try to stop it so it vacillates for me between well hang on was it truly out of control or did it feel like it was out of control and you just thought you didn't want to stop it at this point and I think he's been very honest throughout it's at this point that I'm not quite sure whether he's being fully deceptive but I think there's more to get out of him about really how out of control he was how conscious he was was there some plan you know or did the cards just keep falling like the first stack like the hitchhiker turns up you turn round you give him a ride it's just things fall into place and the wishes fulfilled or do you now start to plan like planning to go to a bookshop planning to go to a bath club planning to you know at what point are you you know honestly really truly sleeping pills planning to exactly so escalated slowly but surely oh okay so there was a certainty that it would escalate so again it's and then there's some there's some lip grooming I think after that slowly but surely so I think he's trying to mediate this idea of it potentially I think was planned and he wants that to look as good as possible I don't think in his mind he truly believes it was just it took over and he's unconscious and nothing there may have been events that were like that or certainly he's made them feel like that but I think there's more conscious effort than he is letting on it's starting to feel a little more deceptive for me but I'm willing to have my mind changed on that Scott what have you got what do you think? I agree with you but I think we're seeing the lip compression I think again that's an adapter because it happens so soon after the question and all the questions it happens fairly quickly something he's prepping to hold his his feelings in but same time Chase I agree with you on that as well I think this cat's holding a lot of stuff in this is where he sees the largest illustrator so far is when he goes up into the passion plane Mark do what? I didn't teach him I didn't trade him I hate you all he goes up into the passion plane and he's illustrating from there and I'm one of the impressions that no scratch is an adapter as well I think that's something where he just needs to expend some energy there his lip compression again is more of an adapter than anything else his cadence and tone everything stays the same his volume goes up just a little bit as he gets a little bit worked up in that but he's coming straight on with his answers he's not hedging anything he's not pausing, he's not waiting to think he's not making these big grandiose things you know he's just looking really interesting Greg, what do you got? guys, I'm on the same thing one of the no scratch I agree is an adapter he's uncomfortably does something but the two big ones, the two biggies here are both source leads the first one is not planned it's a change in word pattern he emphasizes it much harder than most of his other word patterns if you go back and listen, not planned and he makes hard eye contact he's telling you something and you need to ask him wait a minute, what do you mean not planned because it's out of character for everything else he said then he's got that contained emotion I agree with you Scott, when he does that it may be an adapter, but in this case I'm sure it is contained emotion and that lip grip I felt out of control I would give him an opportunity to talk about that so you could likely get him to open up another question I'll start off by saying what could somebody have done Jeff that would have stopped you what could somebody have done that would have stopped us Jeff help me understand why he said not planned half hazard okay, it was half hazard but you went and bought sleeping pills and then I would push him until that rage came to the surface and get what's really in it because I do think when he's talking about internal things again he's masking and he's going to use deception or whatever it takes to get his way but those three things are really the keys here and those source leads that not planned that contained emotion that felt like out of control and then mark yours where he's talking about but it was going to happen regardless, I think you just poke on him a little bit and you get a lot more information did you ever tell yourself I have to stop this I must stop doing this yes when it was going on after after the second time it seemed like the compulsion to do it was too strong and I didn't even try to stop it after that but after the second time things had been building up gradually going to bookstores, going to the bars the gay bars bath clubs when that wasn't enough buying sleeping pills and using it on various guys in the bath clubs it just escalated slowly but surely and after the second time which was not planned it was out of control felt like it was out of control was it the killing that excited you or is it what happened after the killing no, the killing was just a means to an end that was the least satisfactory part I didn't enjoy doing that that's why I tried to create living zombies with erratic acid in the drill but it never worked no, the killing wasn't the objective I just wanted to have the person under my complete control not having to to consider their wishes being able to keep them there as long as I wanted it's not easy to say that but that's that's what the motive was where did that need for control come from do you have any idea I don't know maybe I felt I had no control as a child or young adult and that got mixed in with my sexuality and I ended up doing what I did was my way of feeling in complete control at least for that situation creating my own little world where I had the final say finding the best looking guy that I could and having total mastery over him for as long as I wanted lust played a big part of it controlling lust that was the motive right there all right, Greg, what do you got there's a lot of powerful and horrible stuff in there I'll leave to you guys I'll just say this, look at that lean look how far out that guy's gotten he's moving out of the chair almost his back is twisted and when he says control as a child or young adult watch him illustrate in his father's direction something's going on this time, Scott, when he's using his purse lips, I think they're illustrators making his point I think he's so contained in his face that we see illustrators, we see control of emotion and we see adapters all in his face because he's so contained in the way he moves while he might be not we may decide he's not a psychopath he's at least the kind of guy you could look at and say that looks like a bad thing to hang out with I'm not going to have any involvement with that guy but apparently enough people did that it was in the teens of numbers of people to kill, Scott, what do you got all right, yeah, this whole thing seems a little bit boring if you're not into this kind of thing but I think it's a really fascinating look at somebody who's done horrific things and watching them listen to them and watch them describe what's happened where they sound like a turtle or a fish or something, if you could get one of those things to talk, not like a Bundy or some of the other people we've watched and talked about but just a plain delivery it's almost robotic it's almost monotone as he does that at the same time it doesn't have that really eerie dark film on it like most of the others do but it's still there, like you said Greg you can still spot it from across the room we would all go check this guy out let's watch this guy for a minute he would definitely keep our eyes on him because he would be acting even though he would be normal looking what he's not doing is what makes him so odd so I think it's a very interesting from that standpoint the things he's not doing the things we're not seeing and hearing that separates him from I don't want to say normal psychopath but from someone that falls into the psychopathy label at that point he's certainly not glib that's for sure but I'm looking hard for just one thing more than one that tells me this guy's got besides the eating people and killing people and eating them that says he's a psychopath he's not showing the classic signs of it so I think that's odd at this point Chase, what do you got? I agree with the guys and covered a lot that I had in my notes here but I think this behavior stems from something that I teach in a lot of my courses on influence of persuasion and there's four things that can make somebody compliant to another human and I think everything in the world stems from these four things and I call it the fate model it spells out F-A-T-E which is focus, authority, drive and emotion in that order in that order and I think as a kid he likely failed to get these responses from these people because of the focus of no one he failed to have any authority in many places in his life he was largely excluded from social circles family fell apart so the tribe disappeared and he garnered little to no emotional reaction from people and this developed I think into an emotional behavior pattern for him. Mark, what do you got? Interesting, the father shows I think contempt which is just the side of his mouth just pinging up there contempt or disdain on the kill being a means to an end. He also eye blocks on that and self soothes with his little finger on the chair we've experienced his reaction to Dharma talking about killings but never as a means to an end of something else and the father has this contempt reaction there which I think is really interesting so what is it that the father might know or doesn't like about whatever end whatever wish fulfillment Dharma was actually trying to get that killing was a journey towards Dharma saying is that wasn't the end product there was another end product it's just killing is part of that thing that I'm trying to get done what is the wish being fulfilled there I think the father knows something about that and has contempt for that for that end wish or may have contempt for his son in that maybe the father felt that he was a better controller of those kinds of internal feelings maybe there's a similarity between the two I'm thinking at this point and one feels that they controlled it and the other weren't able to control it but anyway we do get into this control element here the means to the end was that having the final say controlling everything big illustrators on that getting mixed in with the sexuality there's talks about lust but the emphasis is on controlling not the lust aspect so I think Dharma feels that it might be helpful to wrap it up with the idea of sexuality but I think the real point about this is control and that's so again what's that gap that he's trying to control there that the father may have some understanding of exactly what that loss or that gap is now thinking about personality types that we've got here there's only one person in the room that has written a book about their son chopping off heads and eating people now I'm a father if my son I doubt it's ever going to happen we're going to chop off people's heads and you know eat people I've written a bunch of books but I think the last thing I think about is I think there's a book in that I think there's a even if as clearly as happened you know a publishing house came to me and went Mark you know here's a few hundred thousand I think you've got a book there I don't really want to touch that mate I don't know not really and then I go well you know you do like to be in the public eye you do like being on YouTube and stuff like that and you know people knowing who you are and you know on the spectrum of attention seeking I would be on the more outgoing but around my son killing people and eating them I don't need any attention around that there's only one person in the room that has gone in that direction and that's interesting I just wanted to have the person under my complete control not having to to consider their wishes being able to keep them there as long as I wanted it's not easy to say that but that's that's what the motive was where did that need for control come from do you have any idea I don't know maybe I felt I had no control as a as a child or young adult and that got mixed in with my sexuality and I ended up doing what I did was my way of feeling in complete control at least for that situation creating my own little world where I had the final say finding the best looking guy that I could and having total mastery over him for as long as I wanted lust played a big part of it controlling lust that was the motive right there your dad has wondered about all kinds of things from the medication that your mom was on during her pregnancy to the fact that you were exposed to violent arguments in the home from an early age and continuing to the possibility that he might have passed on some genetic propensity for obsession or violent behavior does any of that ring true to you I can see why he'd wonder about those things but as far as I'm concerned they're all excuses because I didn't feel accountable to anybody I didn't feel that I had to face what I had done ever and so there comes a point where a person has to has to be accountable for what he's done can't go around making excuses blaming other people or other things so I alone am the one who is responsible for what's happened let me ask when did you first feel that everyone is accountable for their actions well thanks to you for sending that creation science material because I always believe the lie that evolution is truth, the theory of evolution is truth that we all just came from the slime and when we died that was it, there was nothing so the whole theory cheapens life and started reading books about how the show how evolution is just a complete lie there's no there's no basis in science to uphold it and I've come since come to believe that that the Lord Jesus Christ is the true creator of the heavens and the earth it just didn't just happen and I've accepted him as my lord and savior and I believe that I as well as everyone else will be accountable to him growing up did you feel that you were accountable to your dad or to your mom as the authority figure in the house? Yes I did I mean they didn't let me run wild they were they disciplined me and so I felt accountable to them but afterwards after I left the home that's when I started wanting to sort of create my own little world where I could be the one who had the complete control where I didn't have to bow to anyone else's demands and I just took it way too far Chase what do you got? So I don't have a whole lot here there's a lot of distancing language when he's saying a person that's the big shift I want you to listen to he's not talking about himself anymore he's socializing this a person and if this is genuine and it certainly appears to me to be this is incredibly rare to see a person who's committed an act like this and not redirecting every spotlight onto themselves and the lack of emotion kind of distancing language there's a lack of pressure here a little bit applied by the interviewer makes a little heavier barrier for us to determine whether it's sincere or not but in my opinion it absolutely is Greg what do you got? Yeah I agree with you I think we see some sincere body language here the interesting part for me if you want to know where a lot of his formative issues are he makes his eyes narrow as the topic violent arguing comes up when you say violent arguing in the home his eyes narrow after he drops down to the right and does a rapid head nod hmm there's a formative issue for him his lips purse more tightly I believe that is at the core of a lot of his issues and uses specific words and words matter I could be the one with absolute control I could be the one that says somebody had absolute control so he wanted some absolute control then he goes to the ultimate high ground for all excuses and this is a story he came to tell I did a lot of wrong things I did a lot of this but God will be my savior and take care of me now his father can't leave that alone this tells you there's some narcissism somewhere there well who introduced you to your lord and savior come on I mean this is your child that has gone wrong that whatever you did somewhere along the way might have played into it we don't know or maybe it didn't but it's your child is trying to take the high ground you go yeah yeah yeah wait a minute give me my credit where credit's due I told you all about God that's the weirdest thing you've ever seen I have right here this guy might be a closet narcissist because that's a weird approach Mark what do you got yeah yeah could well be and violent as well at the same time so you know what an extraordinary situation to grow up in where you know quite responsibility here is he's seeing is in arguments his dad beat up his mum potentially his mum beat up his dad that may be spilling over to him may be spilling into sexual violence as well so it's a very very unstable environment that is being described here however you know Dharma takes full responsibility we hear at the start that he goes well you know I didn't take any responsibility for what is happening and instantly I went oh okay there it is maybe we have something psychopathic there but that gets transmuted into actually in the end of it all thinking about it I've now taken full responsibility that's not anything usual around psychopathy now what's interesting is yeah you're right Greg like the dad jumps on that one because we've gone hey it's not the home it's you know it's not genetics it's something that my dad passed down to me it really is he goes it's my responsibility and I now understand that I have to take that responsibility dad jumps in on that and that goes you know just like you said Greg who's helped you come to that approved viewpoint that's quite extraordinary that he does because we haven't heard from him before have we he's been pretty silent he's done very little he's just sat there so there's a piece of non-verbal why are you now overtly behaving at this particular point why do you need to take this particular point what's so important here and I think it is that number one that abdication of responsibility and then going but I am responsible for him taking the approved and and godly view of this and so I'm good I'm pure and by the book it's excellent Scott what do you got on this one I agree with you and I think with his dad it's that situation like Anthony Jesselnick he's a comedian he tells us he has a bit about when something horrible happens everybody on Facebook and Instagram you know gets in and goes my thoughts and prayers are with whatever it is and he says all they're saying is don't forget about me don't forget about me during all this don't forget so that's at this point I think he's don't forget about me and at this point because and I think it might be we might be dealing well no I don't think it's something genetic I can't tell this things freaking me out so bad with what we're seeing but that's where he jumps in mark that's where he gets his attention you're right you're right Greg he's nowhere else to hear about anything but right there when it comes up and getting there and get his shot in here's where I helped you here's what I did good and he goes right to religion the big one everybody's down with that you know most everybody but I did that that's that's his shot that's his that's his narcissistic shot there that he saw and he could take and feel okay about it back to the question this is this is as long as to answer so far as he goes along this is the first time he gets up as he's going along with this is where he starts showing more emotion than he has up to this point with all these and from a psychological standpoint I think this is this is fascinating because like you were saying earlier Greg you could push this guy enough and it wouldn't take a whole lot you know take what takes seven minutes probably to push him enough you got him in the box and got him cornered and started pushing him on something he'd explode on you and I think right here we're actually seeing some of that leak out that's why I think we're at the core of the problem here which is his dad I think that's the looking at that that's why he gets so worked up and of course dad jumps right in so I think that's fascinating propensity for obsession or violent behavior does any of that ring true to you I can see why he'd wonder about those things but as far as I'm concerned they're all excuses because I didn't feel accountable to anybody I didn't feel that I had to face what I had done ever and so there comes a point where a person has to has to be accountable for what he's done can't go around making excuses blaming other people or other things so I alone am the one who is responsible for what's happened let me ask when did you first feel that everyone is accountable for their actions well thanks to you for sending that creation science material because I always I always believe the lie that evolution is truth the theory of evolution is truth that we all just came from the slime and when we when we died you know that was it there was nothing so the whole theory cheapens life and started reading books about how that show how evolution is just a complete lie there's no there's no basis in science to uphold it and I've come to since come to believe that that the Lord Jesus Christ is the true creator of the heavens and the earth it just didn't just happen and I've accepted him as my lord and savior and I believe that I as well as well as everyone else will be accountable to him growing up did you feel that you were accountable to your dad or to your mom as the authority yes I do in the house yes I did I mean they didn't let me run wild they were they disciplined me and so I felt accountable to them but afterwards after I left the home that's that's when I started wanting to sort of create my own little world where I could be someone who had the complete control where I didn't have to bow to anyone else's demands and I just took it way too far is it still there Jeff does it ever go away in part no it never completely goes away I'll probably have to live with it for the rest of my life I wish it would go away I wish there was some way to completely get rid of the compulsive thoughts of things it's not nearly so bad now that there's no avenues to actually act on it but no it never seems to go completely away so the thoughts still come to you sometimes yeah are you different Jeff in terms of how you think back on all of this I would hope I'm different I'm glad that I'm glad that I'm in a position now where I don't feel a compulsion to do these things I'm glad that it's over any words I say to the victims families are just going to seem trite and empty I don't know how to express the regret the sorrow that I feel for what I've done for their sons I can't find the right words Dumber casually showed us something a little unsettling he wanted us to know that box looked strikingly like the one his father had found the one Jeffrey had used to hide body parts hi Greg what do you got yeah he's quite good at responding this time he's showing some passion he's still very Midwestern when he says in part it never goes away he's got lip retractions chase always talks about this he's lip retractions where he needs approval as he's walking through this those are characteristic for him he also does a lot of that remember I started this whole thing off he looks down right down left down right down left and kinesthetic that's just who he is this is however the most passionate and detailed we have seen him in any of the things we looked at listen to his words listen to what he says his reaction at the same time pulling his lips back at sometimes do the feelings come back when he says yes then he shifts gears to something I stopped around construction for a lot of years and I removed these words from my construction manager's vocabulary hope feel and believe those are church words those have no place in factual conversation because I don't care how you feel I don't care what you think matters what you know matters what you can see matters keep away from any kind of responsibility you see it all the time in construction when he says I am glad I am constrained it looks genuine and his face kind of pushes to the center to show disgust his musculature and structure doesn't show real pronounced disgust but you can see it still and then my favorite of the whole thing when he hugs his father if that's not disdain I don't know what the hell it is you can't miss it that's why I think you're seething rage in this guy and then the final broken toy is in that box it's pretty creepy Mark what do you got? yeah amazing interviewer joining on in on the it ideal again I think that's just a softening it's just to help him tell the story I would hope I'm different I've got the same underlined here Greg yeah I'm not going into a room with somebody who hopes their behavior is going to be different I want to know you for sure that you know it's different he says I don't know how to express the regret and the sorrow so again you know alarm bells ring for me because not being able to feel regret is something we might experience with somebody who's on the who's being put down as psychopathic so you know is that a possibility? well another possibility is he's not been taught how to feel those things we learn how to we all have emotions whether we like them or not unless you're you're remiss to have the part of your neurology that's going to better produce some or all of those emotions but how we're trained to express them when to express them that's to do with our upbringing that's to do with the groups that we're part of so it may be a sense of nurture there that means he doesn't quite know how to express those things also there might be a neurotype that is more interested in things and not feelings and you know that that neurotype is is apart from psychopathy so you won't want to mistake one for the other there's a great group of people out there who are super interested in things and have a little bit of a problem going what are these feeling things that are going on here and then after that he does get into one of his things which is oh look a box a box like my box that I used to keep severed heads and genitals in now what's great there is the father puts his hand on the back shoulder there a suppressive gesture and you'll see the disgust and disdain come across the son's mouth at that suppressive governing controlling gesture as the as the dad tries to hold him back or hold him down and go don't talk about the box son no let's not go down I thought we dealt with all of that and you know now I thought we'd sold a whole bunch of books and I'd made myself out to be a good guy and now you're doing the whole story about me wanting to look inside the box at the I mean that's an interesting though I won't go into that but that's interesting stuff you know you go around to your son's house and it's like you manage to track down the box that's in the cupboard in his bedroom and you want to have a look into it it's like there's there's a whole bunch of stuff going there's too much curiosity going on there for my liking anyway chase what do you got on this one yeah great and there's one line in here where he says I would hope so and I we talk about this if you're a subscriber you hear us mention this on occasion this is the reverse this is him being comfortable with uncertainty which I think is an indicator of truthfulness because he's not trying to sell you on the idea that yeah I'm completely fixed and I think this is a one of the if not the most genuine serial killer interviews that's out there there's a there's some dissociative language but I don't think he's trying to pitch anything to us I think that's how he views it himself and he's just being honest about it and anybody thinking that one thing makes a person a violent psychopath is ridiculous it's a cumulative effect if you're born with a gene that makes you more likely to get cancer and then you eat 60 pounds of cheetos every day your whole life that there's a accumulation there so some genetic factors may play a role in likelihood that's all we're really looking at is likelihood so everything it throughout a kid's life and throughout an even an infant is increasing or decreasing likelihood of developing some kind of psychopathy when I say kind of psychopathy human beings are not math equations and we're not formulas so like saying the DSM is a great book to diagnose mental disorders it's not a Bible and it's not a math reference manual some people are just screwed up and there's all kinds of stuff going on and I think that's what we're seeing Scott what do you got I agree with you this this was the most emotion he showed so far and there I think there was a lot of it there I think he does feel bad about that we don't see that with psychopaths we've seen pretend to feel that way but we haven't seen all little things that come along with that from a body language perspective that tells us that that's most likely true I think he nailed it there Jayce there's somethings up here that his attempt to keep everything in and keep everything tight and not show anybody anything goes back to him being alone all the time I think at his house and I think that fussing going on with his little kid and all that I think that's what did it I think that's what he got in those little those odd fantasies and stuff happening and there's nobody to talk to not a brother or sister I don't think to sort of snap him out of that and go dude that's weird you shouldn't be that's weird nobody to tell him that kind of thing I'm sure it happens more often than not that a child is raised by itself and they have nobody to bounce stuff off of and they may seem a little bit different than the rest of their group but in this case I think he was he must have seen violence from a very young age and then that's what is the other things that happened to you when you grow up as a child when you start getting older and you reach puberty and all those things that you must have triggered that in him somehow because he's not showing the things that he should be showing being a psychopath other than killing and hitting people that's what's so weird about this you know everybody else would say dude and everybody else on here we're going to catch so much flack from people saying hey you know I know he's a psychopath but I tell you I thought he probably was too until I watched this watching these things we watched all this stuff Greg who likes doing that you can be a psychopath without taking this magical list we can just say the word psychopath but it doesn't fit this magical perfect list and the list is not perfect so and that's Robert Hare's list so yeah we're going to make sure we get him in there but yeah so I agree with you so long they never know they are one they never know they're a psychopath yeah they're nonviolent they just live their life because they've been in a situation where people loved them took care of them they weren't exposed to violence or anything like that or a lot of that but I think in this case there was so much going on he just totally went inside and started to find things that pleased him or the things that he liked and those triggers from him growing up and when he hit his he hit puberty and he became aware of those kind of things I think that's how that got mixed in with those things at that section of his life and I think that's what we're seeing it's horrible all that that happened is it still there Jeff does it ever go away in part no it never completely goes away I'll probably have to live with it for the rest of my life I wish it would go away I wish there was some way to completely get rid of the compulsive thoughts the feelings it's not nearly so bad now that there's no avenues to actually act on it but no it never seems to go completely away so the thoughts still come to you sometimes yeah are you different Jeff in terms of how you think back on all of this I would hope I'm different I'm glad that I'm glad that I'm in a position where I don't feel the compulsion to do these things I'm glad that it's over any words I say to the victims families are just going to seem trite and empty I don't know how to express the regret, the sorrow that I feel for what I've done for their sons I can't find the right words alright after the interview at the prison Dahmer casually showed us something a little unsettling that's the type of box this is the type of box he wanted us to know that box looked strikingly like the one his father had found the one Jeffrey had used to hide body parts thank you Jeff alright the one we throw around the room and sort of wrap it even though we sort of just did let's wrap it up and listen to what we think or take 30 seconds longer if you want Mark what do you got? I don't like Dahmer I think I like the father even less though that's just me Chase what do you think? so psychopath is just an idea it's not necessarily a medical term and when somebody says they're pleading insanity the word insane is a legal term and not a medical or psychological term it's a legal standard those are concept buckets of particular behavior we just have a person who's severely screwed up we don't need to put a huge label on it but this is just one for the books because this is such a departure from normal when it comes to these types of offenders Greg? all humans are a complex chemical soup whatever you get exposed to when you're 2 and 4 and 9 50 and 60 changes who you are the young said two people interacting are like reagents are never the same so every one of those interactions is going to matter if you don't take care of your kids if you don't pay attention to them when they start doing something aberrant and you're not paying attention it gets rewarded and by the way rewards not always hey Johnny good job it might be something darker than that so we don't know what causes these people if we did we could go and say there's nurture there's everything that happens after that so who knows but this is a really interesting one to me because I've never watched them because it is such a creepy story but when you do watch them it's also a very interesting story Scott what do you got? I think this might be my favorite so far of the shows we've done because we're seeing how much we enjoy dealing with psychopaths and going ah here's why a person's a psychopath and here's the things and so look out for that this one of those cases man this guy he shows those however he is he's got that one thing going wrong with him over there wow so I think that's fascinating I think it's probably my favorite we're seeing one thing what we're saying and everybody's going to think he is and over here it says nah not showing anything he shows yes but now his dad that makes me wonder how bad it got at home because for someone you're right Mark that whole I'm going to write a book and we'll go on we'll have him on the show it's all about the dad but it didn't end up being about the dad that's why he's trying to jump in and make it about himself I think wow I think that's where the there was a movie about it I haven't seen that but I think that's where the movie would be about the dad at this point and there's another one coming out on Netflix here in a couple of months that's all taped interviews with Dahmer so it's a big good one for you excellent all those things this was a good one we'll see you next time yeah see you