 Good evening and welcome to this evening's edition of Tiskey Sam. My name is Aaron Mestani I had the great pleasure tonight of being joined by Bhaskar Sankara founder of Jacobin author of The Socialist Manifesto and Exhausted founder of New York Knicks, it's fair to say. No, I believe in I think about epics not not not years I'm the next win in a hundred years. That's fine Okay, are you just touched down in the UK today, right? Yep. When did you arrive? What time I arrived around nine And I'm coming basically straight from the West Coast. So it's a lot of hours and how long you're here for I'm here until Friday So, yeah, hopefully I'll be here celebrating all day tomorrow And we're also joined by Ellie May O'Hagan. Ellie is a regular contributor to the Guardian She's presently writing a book on centrism with fourth estate books and she is a fan not only of Liverpool having a great season Also the Welsh national team have qualified for the European Championships. Yes, I am Very tired. Yeah, normally I I try and look nice in the fire But but I yeah, not today. So you looked very nice last time I was making sure about that. It looks great. What are you say? I was like, I'm gonna look like someone Who's been working on the election for a month. How hard have you been working at what kind of days been putting in? At least six a week. Yeah, well, it's it's been it's been great though But it's been hot. It's been I mean every everyone who's watching this will have been putting their heart and souls into I'm sure And it has been like the movement is absolutely smashed at this election like whatever happens It's been an amazing election for the movement. I think that's been really great We're gonna get onto that in a bit towards the end actually we're gonna talk about I think probably the best political video I've ever seen in Britain Before we do shut the fridge bit of a part criticism today is sort chaotic scenes in Pudsy Yorkshire with Boris Johnson Trying to deliver milk and orange juice and I think washing up liquid for a business called the modern milkman Which is based in the Tory health constituency of Pudsy Let's cut to a video of that Morning Prime Minister, we come on. Good morning, Britain Prime Minister Just a reaction here from one of the minders Wow that minder You're not getting near Boris So when you come on good morning Britain and deliver on your promise to talk to Pais and Susanna We're ready to go. We're live on on ITV right now Prime Minister. We have an earpiece in my pocket You're more than welcome to come on I'm actually being shot at the moment as well by one of the mind ITV this morning Sure, do you want to keep your tone your language down as well because people are watching this this morning. Thanks very much So as you probably know Boris Boris Johnson, I shouldn't say Boris Boris was Smart enough to hide himself in a excuse himself and hide in a fridge We don't know for how long the minder was in fact one of the senior communications people the works from a Mr. Robb Oxley Just to be clear. He said for fuck's sake not fuck off or go fuck yourself I Can repeat quite rude words because we're not covered by off-com not that it would matter because Laura Koonsburg seems to break Broadcasting regulations all the time and there are no consequences more of that later What do you guys think? Prime Minister Boris Johnson Being infects be doorstep by good morning Britain actually have provided some of the better TV moments of this general election campaign the stand-up one of course Nikki Morgan Is this just a factuous thing that people forget immediately or is that the kind of television clip that that breaks through to the average photo I think It probably wouldn't have had such an impact if it wasn't for a succession of similar moments so obviously the Andrew Neil issue about Johnson avoiding the Andrew Neil issue that interview was like I think a kind of left bubble thing and But once Andrew Neil put that statement now it kind of went into the mainstream a little bit more and then you had obviously I think the big breakthrough moment of the campaign was the Bizarre scene where Boris Johnson tried to steal a reporter's phone So we wouldn't have to look at a picture of the a child with pneumonia lying on a pile of coats on hospital floor And so and I think this is the reason why this is important is not because it's an isolated incident It's because it's a series of incidences of Boris Johnson Kind of wanting to sneak back into number 10 by the back door and hoping that he won't have to Have like deal with any scrutiny whatsoever And obviously Navarra has a left audience So I'm not gonna make a plea to your viewers I think probably already agree with me unless there's some kind of Stray Tory that's just happened to wander onto your YouTube in which case you're very welcome. Please vote Labour But I think yeah, I mean I'm really hoping that enough members of the public will feel a bit mugged off by the presumptuous nature that that is revealing that he can almost like he doesn't have to work to you for people and Also that the guys are fucking charlatan, you know, that's that's the thing about Boris Johnson that I find so infuriating is That every single element of his life You know when you look at the sort of people that have known him and they talk about him publicly like past school teachers And and they're like anonymous friends They paint a picture of somebody who thinks that he's above having to explain himself and that he should just be rewarded with status and wealth and women Without having to actually prove that he's worth any of it and I think you know What we've seen over this election campaign really demonstrates that that is who he is So it's additive is that is that a fair assessment? Do you think that's good? Well, obviously, I don't know particularly about the UX UK context of that How how much this is resonating with people, but I would say that in this era We've become used to our politicians just doing ridiculous things alienating the public and It does seem to get lost in the new cycle and to the extent that it has any political valence It's to encourage people to think that Politics isn't worth it that it's all corrupt. It's all a sham that it's all a joke and I Definitely don't think it helps the Tory, but for the left We need people to have renewed faith in politics renewed faith that You know things can change and that they matter and whatnot and I feel like a lot of the behavior of both Johnson and Trump Push to the point of cynicism Without necessarily getting to the point where they're undermining their own governments But it's just I think fostering an environment in which which politics itself and by extension Obviously far from electoral politics, but even collective action and all these other things are Yeah, just considered less viable and you know, but the Johnson Trump parallels quite common often makes sense But I feel like if Donald Trump was presented with that situation, he wouldn't have behaved like that He would have just said peers go away made a joke been offensive I think that evasiveness. I think at least right brazenly lied I think he would have just like you said, you know, I promised you an interview tomorrow He just wouldn't do it or something right like exactly would be rather than sneak off. Yeah. I mean our our Presidents are not exposed to this level of media scrutiny like a reporter wouldn't get that close to the the president Because the president's executive and not part of the legislative There's no, you know, Prime Minister questions or what not that Trump White has barely does our press conferences But I think in general. Yes, his attitude is more combative and you know, obviously can appeal to his base It's hard to say who that appeals to exactly because even the caricatured vision of who the Johnson braces who's the Brexit base or whatnot like, you know in that caricature Doesn't really want their leader running away and fleeing from from from this and so on but again, it's really up to How much of the media gonna show this over and over again and also if vote a lot of these voters that that would be turned off by this also don't have a sterling opinion of Corbyn whether it'll really make a make a difference but again or just feed into this kind of just general cynicism So that's a really good thing to actually mention. There was a BMG poll out a few days ago puts Boris Johnson as first preference for Prime Minister at 39 Corbyn at 32 But broadly speaking they're both kind of disliked Do you think they cancel one another out? I mean, that's my sense is the election kind of goes on that like the idea that Corbyn is somehow an anchor He is a polarizing politician. No two ways about it That's kind of inevitable given the political program his history, etc But do you think they're kind of cancelling each other out or what do you think the tour is doing slightly better in that regard? I think The thing that I'm I've been concerned about with Corbyn for a long time is that Because there is such a uniform Dislike of him in the public sphere, you know, there's no newspapers That are nice about Jeremy Corbyn and I include the Guardian in that, you know and There's no broadcast media that that is polite about him and I think What I find quite frustrating about the way that the media treats Corbyn is not that they they attack him It's that they don't treat him like a normal politician. They treat him like a kind of absurd figure. I think What's his name Thomas? Thomas Frank that's that guy really and he's a really great writer anyway He said he wants to he said that the DC elite Treat Trump as a foreign object that is around itself into their creamy world And and I don't like comparisons between Corbyn and Trump, but that is true of Corbyn as well They don't treat him like a politician. They treat him like an interloper or like a kind of bizarre phenomenon that they need to crush and The result of that as being has been I think that lots of people in this country Feel the need to performatively hate him as a way of demonstrating that they have sound judgment That they an atmosphere has been created where if you say you like Corbyn and you take him seriously you basically it's like the equivalent of saying I'm a fucking idiot and so and Activists talk about this all the time when they go on the doorstep and Lewis Goodall who's a sky journalist who's been touring the country Said the same thing that you know people say I hate him and then you ask why and they can't really tell you They really they really have any concrete reasons So I think he's different from Boris Johnson in that respect because the opposite is true with Boris Johnson Actually is an idiot, you know, he's a he's a terrible politician and Corbyn And he has a lot he has to experience lots and lots of attacks He's actually quite stoic in the face of it Whereas, you know Boris Johnson collapse is like a flan in the cupboard at the very first sign of scrutiny and yet we're encouraged to see him as this kind of consummate politician this like He's got this kind of magic talent of like winning people over and so so I think and Their lack of popularity is based on different things with with Corbyn It's about trying to demonstrate what a sensible person you are but with Boris. I think it's actually Sort of more demonstrative of like the split in the country So the people who don't like him don't like his racism in his His sexism and so on And I think what you're seeing in terms of the narrowing of the opinion polls is that we're seeing the myth of Boris Johnson being punctured and the myth of Corbyn being punctured and that's that's the narrowing and of course That was much more extreme in 2017 because the myth of Theresa May was so much more absurd than the myth of Boris Johnson And I think it's the same sort of pattern happening in 2019 But just less extreme although we did have an extra week in the 2017 election I do what I mean given that the Tories worst week has been this week I mean it's hard to remember actually the we'll talk about this in a sec that daily mirror front page with that four-year-old kid in Leeds That was on Monday, you know it feels like it was like ten days ago, but it was today's Wednesday, right? Yeah, so the story broke over the week so we broke over the weekend in the only Wednesday Oh my god I know and then in the Yorkshire Evening Post it was broken over the weekend That's what the sort of the hard yards were done journalistically Monday morning daily mirror We'll go into this now. Actually. Let's just talk about this Maybe we can actually I've put I've talked about bring up the image of the Yorkshire Evening Post if we can bring it up It's front page Or maybe not. I'll actually not put the link there Fox. So that's my my fault and Then yes, if you can get that one up all the daily mirror which was from the Monday that'd be great But yeah, it feels like that basically catalyzed the worst week for them So we've gone from that story then the sort of fake news response Sorry, then there was the hang the Johnson response So that's Monday afternoon about he wouldn't even look at the image of the daily mirror front page on the phone Then a couple of hours later. It was almost like months were sort of congealed into like a six-hour window or something Then later you obviously had the fake news story with Laura Koonsburg Rob Pest and Tom News and Dunn etc, etc, etc And so it does bring themselves in glory. Yeah, we'll talk. Yeah, we'll talk about that some more I mean I have to sort of hold myself back when it comes to slagging off the media is that he's all too all too aware having known me for nine years And then of course we had the you go of MRP poll yesterday So it's felt like a really solid 48 72 hours for labor quite a bad A bad period for the toys, but we can bring up actually the the seats from The MRP poll in a sec, but is that the sense you get at it? Do you think that labor sort of clawed back a couple of percentage points in the last couple of days? God, I'm scared to make I'm too emotionally invested in the election to be able to make predictions But I mean it's the I feel like there's just no doubt that it's been a terrible 48 hours for the Tories and Quite a good 48 hours for labor. I think labor has also produced some really Good content that the video with Emily's side. I don't know how you say her name is Emily Sunday I never know. Yeah, I think it's Sunday. We're gonna visit. We're kind of like Jen Zedders Getting a thumbs up But I don't know to which one No, her first name Emily and Yeah, and and that you know that video did really really well and so I think yeah, and Does that stuff cut through like you've got friends in in So what you've got family in Wales you've got some family in the Northwest of England, right? Yeah, and I've got family in Wales and I've got Because I lived in Liverpool for a long time, so I've got friends in Liverpool Yeah, so do you think those people would see those videos or is it? The one that cut through was Jeremy Corbyn reads mean tweets That was the that was the one that I saw obviously the Rob Delaney video cut through massively like 10 million views on the crazy right, yeah So it's something like six seven million on Facebook. Yeah, but the one that Other than that the one that really that I noticed was shared on Facebook First by my non-politics friends was the mean tweets video, which I think again is another example of Puncturing the public image the sort of public idea of Jeremy Corbyn that's been constructed And making it not a shameful act to like him and to believe in him So I'm sorry I didn't answer your question, but I'm too scared No, it's good It's good because I was it's perfect for setting up massacre actually because it seems to me the last couple of weeks Jeremy Corbyn's his Twitter style you look at his his tweets the last couple of days have been brilliant his Twitter style this these videos They seem more reminiscent of the default with Sanders Very confrontational very assertive about who he is what he stands for not just with mainstream media But also in his own social media sort of posts and it feels like Jeremy Corbyn is doing that And I wonder why wasn't he doing that four months ago five months ago six months ago, but perhaps you have an answer Well, I know I don't have an answer. I mean and obviously one thing is the media environment is different The political environment is different in the United States. We've adapted on the left to a Political culture that is much more sound-bite driven that is much more about sticking to your message discipline and so on But that's actually worked very well for Sanders He's able to just have a rhetoric About attacking millionaires and billionaires and about getting what working people deserve That doesn't sound like a laundry list and I would say that a lot of the labor plans really resonated with me because I'm an ideological Leftist all the plans were kind of like checking boxes, you know for me, but I wonder whether for voters if it just seems like Disconnected lists of demands and thank you wonder. Do you think that's what it is? Yeah, I think I think thank you This is a good. That's like a good editor So yes, I will use more active active prose Yes, I think that it might seem like these that there's not an overarching narrative in the way that in 2017 I think even as an outside observer, it's very easy to see there was a There was this for the many not the few there was this kind of build-up with this overarching Narrative and obviously Brexit complicates that and I mean, that's one thing where I won't even you know venture a Suggestion because it's kind of like how do you respond to an impossible situation the limits? It's kind of beyond there the control if I had to Guess I mean I My anti-European biases are quite quite well well, you know well known But even that might have backfired even more severely than I kind of the plan currently being being pursued So I would say though that that Sanders has been able to in a more favorable environment in many ways Maintain a lot of message discipline and in many ways It's like Sanders is a type of guy who this is sounds insulting, but you know, he'll skim the introduction of a book for the key words the key kind of points then he'll close that book and never open it again and You know, he'll synthesize different different things together in a way that it really does make sense and resonate So I think less words more repetition is always useful We had a more simplistic vocabulary in the Sanders campaign in 2016 at least then trumped it So we think of Trump is saying the same thing over and over again. We in fact say the same thing over and over again Again the environment is so different It might just be that if you tried to stick to that rigid discipline You would just get torn to shreds and in Parliament or in the the media or whatnot. So I don't know do you This is for both of you. Do you think that? Bernie Sanders has been better at telling his own story. This is my sort of my only miss giving about the Jeremy Corbyn Leadership over the last four years because people make mistakes things are hard. The context is difficult What could you do differently? What I feel is that Jeremy Corbyn is actually the narrative on the country's strong It could be stronger But his his story is quite oblique nobody really knows what it is and I often feel look you want to be the prime minister There's gonna be a story about you, right? Is it the one you tell the public or is it gonna be the one that other people tell the public? And I feel like that that for me is the biggest sort of the bigger issue I mean, I agree with you that there isn't there isn't as strong I think it's coming to focus in the last couple of days actually with some of these videos a story about the kind of Country we could be or should be But I feel that's more of an issue with Jeremy Corbyn personally, you know, like who is this guy? Why does he feel the way he does and I think for instance look at the the IRA terrorist sympathizer? He could just quite easily say 1980s I was passionate about Irish political prisoners. These are my values That's why and those are the values that infuse choices throughout my political career Obviously, don't say this week before a general election. We say it a way back Sometimes that means you make bad calls more often than it means you make good calls I think, you know by and large I've made good calls because of my values socialist values. What do you think? Yeah, I think the narrative about Corbyn was much stronger in 2017 and it was much stronger in 2015 in the leadership election And it was about somebody that had consistently been on the right side of history Exactly when nobody else was but things like LGBT rights and apartheid and so on and You know, I mean with the IRA thing as I understand it one of the reasons why he became involved in The peace process is because of Irish the Irish community in Islington that he met and And So I do think, you know, he's he's lived in in Islington North is one of them is has like some of the highest levels of poverty in the country and he's represented people in that community that have Suffered he's helped them. I mean anybody who spent time with Jeremy Corbyn in Islington North Knows that the guy's like a local hero. Everybody stops to shake his hand Everybody even my auntie and uncle are Irish immigrants who live in Islington North And Whenever they love him and because he went for tea there once, you know And everybody in Islington North has a story like that about Jeremy and they could have yeah I think it was a mistake that they haven't Tried to tell the country who he is, you know Ian Martin is a telegraph journalist that I disagree with on everything but he said One thing I remember him saying once that I think is really true Which is that when you're a politician the public don't necessarily need to agree with you all the time But they do need to understand who you are and why you're doing what you're doing and I think Jeremy would have found that he had it that like Yes, within a very hostile environment where the conditions are always difficult for him I don't deny that but I think he might have found that the public were more sympathetic If they understood who he was and why he was doing what he was doing And I think that also extends to the Brexit position as well Where it what it's not just the fact that they were Prevaricating for so long and we probably have different opinions on that But for me, I was always impatient with the prevaricating rather than the kind of Desperately wanting to leave or remain in the EU on principle And I and it's so it's not just like it wasn't really the position itself It was the fact that there was no attempt to really explain it You know, it was often it was like this is what it is But I felt that the kind of why was missing and they've they've done this now with the kind of this is a mess We need to let the people decide and I think that is Working a bit, but I think they should have done that a long time. Actually, I don't think we did do disagree I think in retrospect The thing that made it hardest for jerick's don't forget label leading in most the polls beginning of this year even right? The European election obviously massively polarizes the electorate around the issue of brexit And I don't think labor adapted Nearly quickly enough one way or another so I agree that you needed to tell that story Whereas they didn't feel they need to tell that story because the electorate hadn't polarized because there wasn't the European elections And in that offense, you know, we didn't know they were happening until two months before You know, we still we were leaving on the 29th of March and then we thought we were leaving October So it's been such a fluid situation I think that fluidity meant they couldn't adapt to it. You're you're a euro skeptic more than I am even No, I would say this that in the abstract just like Jeremy Corbyn I'm opposed to the European Union. The European Union did nothing to erode the British Or did very little to erode the British welfare state I if anything the presence of the UK in the European Union made the European Union even more reactionary There are theoretical limits the European Union does limit you if you want to enact even a social democracy but the Politics in Britain didn't come near to those limits in other countries, especially in the South of Europe You know, they were running up against those those those limits So for me, I mean, I think my stance is unfortunately a very conventional one I would have probably voted remain just because it was a campaign being driven by the right While maintaining, you know, the historic position of the left, which is opposition to European integration, which I think broadly was was Corbyn's Position that he got slammed for but there was consistency there And I remember there was that story when very early on in his leadership Corbyn didn't show enough deference to the Queen It became some sort of story and and one of these articles is right up It was someone saying yeah, he didn't like, you know, doff his hat to the Yeah, and then and then but it was the the the actual like lack of respect to the Queen then someone interviewed in This this feature about it was just like, oh, well, you know, he's he's honest straightforward You know, he he doesn't you know put on performances He just kind of does I disagree with him But he does what he does and I think there is another version of Jeremy Corbyn There was allowed to be Jeremy Corbyn and I think that he was put under a lot of pressure To constantly adapt to what the public thought he should be but we're in an error when the politicians that are most successful Are the politicians that are just themselves that seem authentic even if they do polarizing and alienating Things so I think there's another version of Corbyn that that is just more straightforward and might have flamed out quicker It might have not be the leader right now or might have been Prime Minister right now. What do you? Would you make of the John Ashworth thing yesterday? We don't have to go into too much detail is quite sensitive But I thought the response that was interesting for me because obviously the whole Corbyn thing is Honest politics and it was quite clear that John Ashworth had been a mistake made a mistake Let's let's be charitable and just say he was just checking nonsense with a friend He didn't want to upset his friend. We will do that We will say things we don't really mean with friends because you just want to we don't want to create a fuss Right, so let's just say that's what Ashworth was doing But then him going on TV and sort of just bullshitting through his teeth saying it was banter I personally think it was banter. Do you think that sort of I mean for me the way Jeremy Corbyn responded to that was superb? And it speaks to the thing you're talking about the difference between him and Boris Johnson Boris Johnson could never do that how How inclusive he was how responsive he was how emotionally intelligent the answers were And that's kind of so I would have I mean a year ago I probably would have said what you just said that was a more polished politician who wasn't maybe as authentic But actually he looked far more prime ministerial again I never thought I'd use those sort of terms then Johnson which which side do you fall on any you mean is it on the Ashworth thing? Yeah, so, you know you saw Jeremy Corbyn's response. It was really calm. Have you not seen it? We've been working too hard. He's not been on Twitter like me We shouldn't we won't cut to it. It's not a big thing. We don't really want to talk about it But I just thought I'd throw that in there. Let's look at the MRP polling Can we get that up folks if you just pull this up here on the screen you should see that we have 44 seats, I believe it's a 46 seats 46 seats require a 2% swing Isn't that crazy? 46 seats so Basically that seats you can see there. There's a four-point difference summer seats that labor presently hold Bolsova Grimsby other receipts they need to win like Hastings, Southampton What do you guys think of those of those seats that are less than the 46 seats summer labor leave seats summer sort of more Romani seats like putty which we should win. Do you think labors gonna get over the line with most of those? How you feeling I think someone should abolish a Green Party They are a variable about 10 seats which could be the difference in a majority or not Yeah, but then again we I mean if we don't accept that argument when centrist parties use it against left-wing parties in other contexts Lots of the left vote for Macron and like what 2016 or whatever it was I would say yes, it's a first-past-supposed system But we can't assume for example these people would be turning out regardless a lot of them might have just stayed at home and the biggest block of voters are the people who who You know far more far more larger than these smaller parties are the Voters that I just said a boss Green Party now. I'm walking it back speaking speaking of what I said before about Corbyn Not speaking to his core principles. No, I think Green Parties have generally been Have outlived their usefulness, especially now that center left parties and left-wing parties have finally adopted really robust ecological should the Green Party be abolished Given given let me let me let me have a voice Not to be sectarian, but what's the point of the Green Party given how green? Labor's platform is runs the earth. It was a more green manifesto than the Green Parties well, I Really admire Caroline Lucas, and I like Adam Price as well and I think that the Greens played a played a really important role in British politics up until 2015 as a Kind of in terms of like outflanking labor on the left, and I think a lot of the things that labor have picked up as policy Would not be policy if they hadn't created the space that if the Greens hadn't created the space I think they've made a lot of fuck ups this election that have been quite disappointing I think I think they The remain alliance is cut was totally baffling that they're allowing they they made an alliance with Lib Dems That are being that are getting fossil fuel donations to run against Like labor remain candidates, or maybe it was a labor remain candidates, but anyway labor candidates anyway Yeah, that have the proud potney. Yeah, that have like the most impressive Environmental platform of any political party in the world in all of history that was that was bananas and Also that Caroline Lucas is misstep of the all-female cabinet that I think included justine greening I think the all-white all-female cabinet, right? Yeah, that was that was of course a misstep, which I think she did actually seemed to learn from so there you know, I think I think what it suggests is that They're they've sort of lost their kind of ideological compass as a result of Brexit and also as a result of the Labour Party kind of colonizing their space as as a kind of So was it called in economics? No, what's it called like environmental socialism? Is it eco socialism? It's been a long day. No, you've been working, but I think we should have given Ellie one of those club martyrs But Gary was being very stringent a club. What club martyrs? We had them in election session 2017 that fizzy stuff that was like waking everybody up. Oh, yeah Anyway, I'll tell you an anecdote about that Which is we were doing a thing at like three in the morning and I suddenly went I'm really tired And so you turned off the camera and gave me one. That was very nice I remember that and I'll be here tomorrow for it by the way Matt's up. I gave one to Matt's up and after I had like a couple of bottles and he's like I'm coming up and I was like I think it was maybe just the euphoria of the night as well. That's true. Yeah. Anyway, so Yeah, I think they've lost their ideological compass and I think they're trying to feel around for a new one And I think the kind of left-wing case to remain is quite important Like it's quite important position to have in the political ecosystem that they have occupied quite well You know the kind of pro migration working across Europe to tackle climate change those kind of things have been quite important I think it's also important to remember that there is a tranche of green voters who are not left-wing You know, they've got the nickname Tories in Wellies. How big is that? Do you think it's quite a few sort of green? The record was really poor right and local governance when it came to Union busting and pushing kind of forms of austerity on a local level and the the council Yeah, of course And actually according to the MRP, she's gonna solidify her majority even more than the last election 60% of the Crazy, I think she's a you know a really important figure to have in Parliament and I think she's You know, I'd like her to stay in Parliament. Um, but it is true to you know, have they outlived their usefulness? I don't know But I think it is true to say that the lacking direction at the moment I mean, that's the thing for me because what a lot of what a lot of greens say to me It's a good argument because obviously you're right. I don't think we have Corbynism without the greens until 2015 I don't think it happens. It certainly doesn't happen the way it did They say well, we help we help shape the debate on the left and push the Labour Party to the left absolutely correct And so they they basically viewed themselves or the left of the Green Party views themselves these kind of outriders So they can do new things say new things opt for policies which the Labour then has to kind of shift to and I just say When I hear that argument, I just say look the reason the Labour Party doesn't want a new Runway Heathrow the reason why it's back to Green New Deal the reason why it's got a second referendum on Brexit You know, I was ambivalent about it. I now think it's a great policy Actually, maybe again, you may have been trying to cause you but I think it's the it's the best policy You can still on the doorstep frankly, and then there's any other alternative The reason why you get all of those shifts is because of political battles within the Labour Party It's not because the Green Party went and did something and so what I said to the Greens I even said to Lib Dems, if you want electoral reform, this is a two-party system If you want, I would like to see additional member system. I'd like to see elected Lords join the Labour Party until then I don't see the point now the councillor argument with the Greens was Well, we need to get these issues on the agenda, but now the Labour Party has this very green manifesto I'm not I'm not I actually I actually Carol Lucas fantastic politician, but actually the political party itself. I wonder what purpose they're serving Well, I think we should be wary of just thinking about We're a lot small ideological political parties that aren't rooted in something So for example, you had the German greens and started off as extremely radical in the 80s by the 90s They're Kind of on a right-wing trajectory and right now they're to the right of the social Democrats much less, you know D-linka why because it was never a party structurally rooted in the working class. It was a party rooted in a set of left-wing ideas And I think one of the advantages the Labour has always had that's always prevented it from just evolving into becoming a Party like the Lib Dems was was this connection to a base and a history and a set of set of ideas Not just the institutional You know trade unions, so I think that played a played a role as well And I think, you know, that's that's something that that we should keep in mind when we're comparing Platforms and and and programs. I think it's better to be wrong with a left-of-center party with roots then Right with a smaller more ideological Party be it a green or parties will come and go like the respects of the world and and what not Which you explained very well in your book the socialist manifesto. I do not mention respect No, no, the kind of The idea of having a mass party embedded in in working-class consciousness rather than ideas, etc. Yes, thank you. Let's let's let's move on We're gonna look at a video Now which was broadcast on today's music politics live. Is that okay, Fox? We're gonna cut it off before the person involved in the videos says something illegal because we don't want to broadcast What they broadcast just to say if you're gonna look for this on BBC iPlayer. It's not there How do you get it? What's just a clip from Twitter? So, yeah, let's see BBC's Laura Koonsburg talking to her phone in a car possibly breaking electoral law Certainly and the forecast is it's gonna be wet and cold tomorrow The postal votes of course have already arrived the parties. They're not meant to look at it But they do kind of get a hint and on both sides people are telling me What's that? Is it do we get the whole clip we didn't broadcast anything illegal? Thank God for that. So that was look this was a weird clip Sorry, we had a bit of a it was it wasn't even a production problem for us I just we just don't really don't want to break the law right now What was that all about this is bad Aaron coming out? What do you mean? You got there's good I don't know about this is this is naughty Aaron Come on, you I mean you're far more sort of Collegiate than I am but this was a pooling journalism I think yeah, I I have Well, I'm on record have written pieces more than once I think and I you know I'm on record publicly is saying the left needs to stop whinging about the media and just you know Don't go complaining to the referees. Just win the game is my sort of often my My ethos and I do Still think that we that I still I still believe that I think that Establishment of hostility will always be a condition of left-wing organizing and we need to figure out a strategy to deal with it Having said that I Have been absolutely appalled by The BBC at this election I You know you you expect it. I expected it from of course. I expected it from like the print the print media I mean they're always raided in their coverage of the Labour Party particularly when when they feel threatened, but The BBC this election I I think It was when the story of Boris Johnson putting his phone in the guys phone in his pocket and that led the evening news That was the moment where I realized how bad it had been because I was genuinely surprised The a negative story about the Tories had actually got some coverage because it really was the only one in spite of everything You know for example the other day when he drove that JCB digger that said get Brexit done That was reported with no mention of the fact that he was paid 10,000 pounds By JCB and then did a speech there three days later You know and the fact that the the JCB give money to the Conservative Party That's really dodgy and that wasn't even part of the coverage so There was a you know in the other of course the main I think actually one of the worst things that the BBC has done over the course of this election Was to uncritically repeat the lie that a Labour activist had punched a an advisor to Matt Hancock Which just was a total lie and I actually think one of the unsung heroes of this election Was the person who just happened to take the iPhone footage that demonstrated that it was a lie because I Suspect that that might have just ended Labour's electoral chances and it wasn't true. I I I'm still trying to resist the idea that there's a sort of establishment conspiracy to crush the Labour Party at the BBC I think it's it seems to be like it's much more of an institutional issue than something so simplistic Yeah, I agree with that, but it's it's every day It's almost hourly on some days and so you think if it's not organized conspiracy, which I don't think it is It can't just be working culture and working practices and unconscious bias. I mean you've got this you know There's a dozen really key moments which have undermined the BBC in this election. Well, sorry All I was gonna say is that you know, I've been on many of the like flagship shows Ma I've been on Andrew Ma a few times news night Lots of different radios Politics live a couple of times lots of different radio stations And I haven't been on question time, but I for one reason or another I've been kind of backstage at question time a couple of times hanging out with the producers and a lot, you know then and my experience of the BBC politics lot is You know people doing political coverage at the BBC is like lots of really lovely people But I would say Ideologically they're kind of Blair right I don't mean that and you know often people say that anyone who isn't a Like a Corbyn Easter is a Blair right, but I actually mean specifically Blair right economically conservative socially liberal and And I think that I think that is bit that is kind of culturally what what the where the BBC Politics kind of people are out and I think that is sort of reflected in its in its coverage I think they've absorbed their idea of what norm political normality is and objectivity is is still stuck in that era So again, we go back to what Thomas Frank said Jeremy Corbyn is a foreign object that has around himself into their creamy world And they don't know how to react to him and so they and I think coverage like this is the is the result But of course there is no excuse for Sharing a lie about a labor activist without verifying it at all and there is no excuse for Breaking a lecture or law if that indeed has happened And I think it's also worth pointing out that post early postal votes are always terrible for labor And it really doesn't mean anything about the result of the election just just to clarify because we didn't actually broadcast it Laura Koonsburg affected was talking about postal votes. Oh, like if you just said you can you can conclude for yourself what was basically being said and it was It possibly does break a lot BBC say they don't think it has ever made a tweet this evening It's not to them is it? Yeah, no, it's not and also the fact to the police. Yeah, the fact is not on iPlayer would suggest, you know It's up in the air. Yeah, that's good. Yeah, I mean, I would say that well, there's two things as far as actual analysis I think we should avoid the kind of left populist trap of even talking about oh the establishment media versus the People, you know, it just it's it's flimsy analysis. Yeah, I suppose I'm talking out of like No, I think no, I think you were you were explaining it, right? you know these people come from a background come from a kind of professional middle-class that is very you know Blairite and they think the Jeremy Corbyn and they think that the labor left is Unacceptable for all sorts of reasons and they think it's just a bizarre kind of fluke and a sign of our polarized time that these people Have disproportionate sway within the Labor Party To some extent they also thought the same about the forces of right populism that that that emerged too and in the same way The political parties and organizations have kind of control commissions and things like that So a big swing in public sentiment Or membership sentiment can't overnight transform something I imagine that a lot of the top people the BBC think of themselves as stewards of a society and a system and Don't think that that our Corbyn and the the Labor Party right now Represents, you know Something that they view as as legitimate. I think that's a lot of what's behind it, but I do think it's to our Benefit that's just speaking to the mic some sign. It's to our benefit that we're talking about Media attacks on Jeremy Corbyn. I think it galvanizes his supporters It makes people think that they need to unite together and create their own independent media sources This is where one would describe to Navarra. Yeah, exactly. I was gonna do the plug But I'll do that in a second and also to Jacobin. I bought my dad a Tribune subscription Yeah, yeah, yeah subscribe to Tribune because Jacobin you know the margins are terrible shipping Jackman's over over the ocean So but I think it is galvanizing and I think it is good politics You know Trump wielded this quite effectively in the in the US with the fake news Narrative obviously he took it he took it further, but I think a lot of people feel resentment and resentment at both The real elites in society the real people hold power and also, you know functionaries like like a lot of the media And if we are in our analysis Placing an excessive role on the the the impact of these functionaries be they right-wing academics or think tanks or or Or centrist journalists then I think our analysis is weak But if we're not willing to push those buttons politically then I think we're missing a Opportunity and this is one of the the openings that we have so I'm gonna take this opportunity to say If you don't know what you're watching This is Tisgy Sarah Navarra medium I'm Darren Bustani if you like what you're watching you agree with the conclusions about Ellie and Vaz car that we need to build a New media for different politics go to support dot Navarra me dot com make a one-off payment Maybe even take it a subscription which would be a rolling payment. We suggest Whatever you earn an hour. I would also suggest if you earn less than a living wage Don't don't worry about it. Just hit subscribe. That's enough But if you are more than the living wage Please if you earn 15 20 25 pounds an hour if you could give us that a month It'd be fantastic. We're gonna need it more after Thursday. Probably more than ever before Very simple thing to do doesn't cost you a penny. We've got 2,500 people watching right now. If you just click that thumbs up Go to thumbs up comment all helps helps the algorithm gets into people's feeds much appreciated and actually before we do carry on Tribune is Excellent. I love tribune. You know my only criticism of tribune is you don't publish it enough There are like it's like quarterly, right? Yeah, but they've been publishing five six times every year every day That's a that's a model even Jack. I mean, I mean the print. I mean the print. Yeah. Yeah product Yeah, I'm doing so much sort of train commuting now, especially with the canvassing and stuff And then I'm like I want to get a good magazine and it's like we're eco socialists now But I also just yeah, I think I just wanted to say please if you I've been deli I've been slugging off the media Which is like not really my wheelhouse normally I'm as you say I'm more normally collegiate, but I've been like really furious with the media the last week And I've been subsequently burning all of my bridges and I and I've been like deluged with people Tweets from people in agreement and I just want to plea that if you're one of those people watching this and you Tweeted me or you just agree in general Please and you can't afford it. Please do subscribe to Navarra because It's really it's really worth it. I mean I get so much out of Navarra, but but also Don't just complain about the BBC being shit And various other media outlets being shit if you can afford to support something that is trying to do something different And I think this election and also at conference I think Navarra demonstrated how what a useful tool it is for the left to please do subscribe That's kind of say your picture is way better than your pitch. I think I think this needs to become a regular We're gonna we'll cut this now at every sort of the middle of every show and I'm gonna cut to Ellie Navarra me know it's It's true. I mean I whine about the media all the time, but in my in my defense I'm also involved in a project which is creating a new media So I kind of I have my get out of jail card what I would say is look ITVs had a mixed bag I think I TV said a good election apart from Robert Pestin, you know that the phone moment for instance was ITV Good morning, Britain with Nikki Morgan was ITV Guys had a good election Sophie Ridge has been very good. So if you read just been great I knew it's good. All's good. Good. I've been sector gets it done channel 4. Yeah, but that's what's disappointing That's what I mean as a BBC exactly So it's less it's even less we'd like to say we write off print media I actually think the Guardians been really good in this election I have to say the Peter O'Born piece today. For instance, it's just great article. You wouldn't really find anywhere else But the BBC is almost quite unique then and they're kind of like we're talking about legacy media Broadcast and print and the BBC already stands out there. It's like it's had a you know It's not a leftist talking point. It's had an exceptionally bad election I can't see how it could have had a worse election I don't want to suck up to my boss as well But I would just like to say that the Guardian comment pages have been really excellent I think actually over the selection Rhiannon Lucy Coslett wrote a beautiful piece today. I think it was today I think they're all blurring into one about her brother and which was really really moving and I think They've had Rob Delaney as well Dan Trilling wrote a really great piece about the fact that the Sun Reproduced a neo-nazi conspiracy theory which implicated both me and you were you in it? Were you in that? Possibly maybe Tribune might be in there Yeah, so yeah the guard I'm sure I know is me sucking up to my boss, but you're the guard I've had criticisms of the Guardian before particularly it's some of its comment. I mean I said it yesterday after the editorial Came out supporting Labour These are really dark times. There are lots of people in the media and in politics who have absolutely zero interest in the truth and You know when I read the Guardian nine times at ten I believe at least I believe in like people are doing the fact-checking it so on so that has to sort of be defended You know and that's why I'm so worried that BBC's made the turn that it has because that's the kind of institution That I should feel the same way about but I don't frankly, you know, yeah Yeah, no, and I think that one publication we haven't been able to mention is you know new statesmen I think some of the criticism Was done in a way that I think I wouldn't say discipline the Guardian But I think made clear that there are that a lot of the readership not just people on the far left like like us But you know millions of people on the center left or whatnot are Upset that their organs won't do the very basic minimum in a first-past-the-post system Which is supporting the party that isn't filled with right-wing You know racists and the Austarians and You know, I think the dividing line is extremely clear and You know, well, we'll see how much impact this actually has I mean half the time when it comes to these these endorsements I just think that it's just the echo chamber of of the media, but the people that are really Clued in obviously are not gonna listen to what new statesman has to do or whatnot But I think for the general public it's just another drop in the bucket of I don't know what's wrong with Corbyn, but something must be wrong with Corbyn And I think that's that's the perception that labors had to battle and it's a very difficult one to battle because it's been so vague and innuendo laden I think actually the Guardian endorsement I think was quite important because It's important. I think a lot of the election will rest on whether like People who hate Boris like progressives who who who like don't Like Corbyn whether they will hold their nose and vote Labor and I think the Guardian endorsement was quite important In terms of creating an atmosphere because that's the paper that a lot of the people will read Where it feels like permissible and uneven imperative to vote labor And I think that's why the new statesman editorial was really irresponsible because you don't you can't Oh, I'm not gonna vote for any party because one party will get into power So it's not as though you if you decide I'm not gonna endorse party I'm not gonna vote for a party that there's not gonna be a government. There will be a government and you are making a choice by not voting and You know and really that choice that you're making is you're you're allowing a conservative government And that's why it was it was really irresponsible to just kind of opt out in that way But I think what's going on at the Well, I don't want to I don't know if I want to say is the new statesman because I I don't know But I think I would so I don't I won't single out when a particular outlet But I think but I think a phenomenon that's happening in the media at the moment is I think that there's a sort of a freaking out about the fact that A lot of people are suddenly shut out because in the in the kind of Cameron years and the Miller band years and the blaze is lots of these journalists had like really Exciting contact books where they could phone up senior members of government and More and more I mean obviously that's still the case with the Tories But with labor all of a sudden those people were kind of on the outside when they used to being very influential And I think that they're like really panicked but I also think we're seeing a similar phenomenon here that happened in the US which is that a The media this or in terms of how it's set up just isn't equipped to deal with these like at this incredibly volatile era and these like massive changes and politics and so It's sort of kind of trying to like fit a square peg into a round hole A lot of it is just they just don't know what to do about it. And that's why the BBC's bizarre obsession with balance In a world that's very unbalanced ends up looking really right-wing and nonsensical I think Just sort of tweet from Hugh Grant, but we'll get that in the question in the comments No, no, no if only the last Prime Minister to win a winter general election No, no, it's my few hours ago. I just think it's a weird to it. We can talk about it Actually, it's let's get the questions up with the rocket emojis by the sides That would be good. We've talked about the new statesman that length through it I think the Tribune is going to replace the new statesman the long term. So yeah We're all good that we're all good one third of the way So yeah, we're getting some questions in basically the tweet is I'll read it to you That's just such a dumb tweet. I mean, but that's what a celebrity is now about politics, right? No, no, it's like, you know, not everybody has all the answers to anything obviously, but Hugh Grant Some moderate remainatories tell me they're hesitating to vote tactically because of Corbyn phobia or corbaphobia But look at bookies wherever you think of him. He's not gonna be PM even with SMP and coalition. So I shouldn't stop anyone depriving Johnston majority Just doesn't make any sense. Maybe that's helpful. I think it's helpful, but it also just doesn't make any sense But if he's saying, oh, don't worry about it. Just don't like don't vote vote Labour anyway Don't worry about it. It's not gonna matter. I'm like, I'll take that if it means they're gonna vote Labour I'll take you know, I think it's helpful. I just think no But what if okay, so what if Labour then get a majority and then people like him say oh It's because of technical voting the Corbyn can't be Prime Minister. I mean, that's the next step, isn't it? I mean, look, they're gonna say that Corbyn can't be prime minister That's true. Like even if he gets like a fucking 400 seat landslide, they'll find a way of like saying he can't be prime minister We just got to make sure that we're prepared for that. Yeah, that's good. No, that's that's it. Just sagely nodding Yeah, I mean also the thing is that there's lots of ways to judge what happens in a general election The bookies is not it, you know The bookies get good odds on sports horse racing football. I think the bookies got I mean the bookies Couldn't have got Brexit more wrong, you know, the odds they had on on Brexit that the odds they had on the 2017 election 2015 2010 last women the premier Premier League Often the live odds This is gonna make me sound like I'm like a gambling aficionado But but the live odds like the day of the election in the US and with Brexit likes like slid in the direction of Brexit's gonna happen and Trump's gonna get elected Yeah, well last-minute indicators and people responding, but yeah, there's not an accurate reflection of the probabilities It's about how much money they're going to lose or potentially. Yes. Yes, I mean betting companies anyway Enough of that, but a bookies do want to throw this away Do stand again, right? So let's let's get into these questions. Let's do this in 15 minutes We've kind of covered that okay, here we go. This is a good question Can you put who they're from? This one's great. Why the BBC talking to a reporter while she's driving? Koensburg is driving during that clip. It seems like there's an eagerness to create a DIY genre at the expense of actual journalism Actually, maybe those this is my question See also Brexit cast. Why is the BBC? Talking to a journalist over the phone while she's driving a car. I mean, it's it's gonna it's sort of Creating a opportunity structure for big fuck-up surely I Think it's is what what the questioner Seems to suggest which is that they are trying to adapt to a completely a new media landscape, right? So they're doing Brexit cast they're doing, you know, like like this All the journalists tweet stuff all the time now and they you know, like yeah they have these like on-the-go moments like that moment and I think basically it's because you know, Twitter and Facebook Instagram all of that stuff has enabled the news to like happen like really really fast and in a way that they can't control anymore And so they're they're trying to adapt themselves To that world. I think I think like actually all of those journalists spreading the lie about the Labour activist and Matt Hancock's adviser is a demonstration of how actually they haven't managed to adapt to that world very well because You know, they I think The kind interpretation is that they underestimated the amount of people that would take that as like a report of the truth and Yeah, and I and like so I think That's my explanation of what of what that is I think it's bizarre that the BBC does the BBC does really good entertainment podcasts as a podcast called And the missing crypto queen that's like really which I'm not listening to that. Yeah. Yeah, it's really really good And so that so they are like doing lots of interesting things and on their cultural sections with podcasts Lots of great music documentaries and so on but I think it's Bizarre having the BBC doing news podcasts because they kind of they don't give opinions So, you know, I think their analysis is always going to be extremely shallow I never look go to the BBC for analysis because that's so afraid of saying anything that might be deemed an opinion Yeah, yeah, and also you need strong unions, you know, no no journalist should be asked to tweet something You know, you sit down at your desk with a landline People should just sit there from nine to five file and go home and spend the rest of their time with their families With their loved ones, you know, that that's what we should fight for an unplugged media I think like Brexit casts. I think Brexit cast is probably the worst thing the BBC has ever done from a current affairs perspective It's awful. It's like basically they've seen Joe Rogan. It's basically like this, right? You know, there's it's like Chris Mason and Laura Koonsburg sound like beavers and butthead. They're sort of making stupid jokes Yeah, haha, this is you're a world-class news organization You don't need to do that It's like it's trying to ape exactly like I said it's trying to ape this kind of new genre new media You're relevant because you have the resources to fact check and actually do credible long-form investigation You're not relevant because you're like doing this new cutesy quirky thing Which nobody like don't do this, you know, lots of people can do that Not many people can spend weeks on an investigation in the way that you can anyway I just find it really annoying the whole the Brexit cast and then Rob Burley will say who's the sort of producer of a Lot of this stuff will say well it got a million viewers last night Yeah, there's four terrestrial channels to them the fucking BBC So you feel like they're swagger jacking you basically What does that mean swagger jacking was that that was like a thing people said in the US for like three months six years ago? That was the last time I was it mean it just means stealing your style your swagger The basics a legacy media It's a legacy media institution, which is trying to ape certain features of new media select Joe Rogan kind of vibe That's what Brexit cast is but then it's like but then they do things like Laura Koonsburg will say yeah It's shitposting and then there's talks like you're factually wrong about the shitposting thing Like there's no point doing this kind of genre stuff if like what you're saying fucking garbage Anyway, and one nice thing about Rogan not to defend his politics. He's just the most credulous like he will like talk to You could put Rogan next to Lenin. He's like, yeah That's really visionary so then what you know any anyone but yeah, Joseph Herzl. Yeah, so if Dr. What's his name Harold Chipman, so yeah, I can understand that He's an eyes all those people and I can get that Right Jay asks why isn't election day a national holiday? Good question. I think it should be I don't I don't know Because most of the time the Tories are in power and they actively want to suppress boats was my best answer But I think it should be Yeah, it should be a on a on a Sunday or a holiday and you should this is actually quasi left neoliberal idea I'm just invented, but you should get like a Cash or a tax credit. I don't think the libertarian in me doesn't want the Australian mandatory voting So I think if they still got Yeah, yeah, they had a good government and guess what happened the Queen Whitlam look it up Look it up. The monarchy must be abolished any of you They're gonna leave them well soon on the Aussies by the sounds of it There's a Republican movement there, but it's not very left-wing, but Whitlam would who's their greatest social democratic leader? To the left of Wilson just a very very very good Was ousted by the governor, you know general But well one I talked to Australians. They're basically if you're an Australian comment in the comment section Basically, they say it was once Queen Elizabeth the second Regina. God bless her. So along may she reign Once she's come away, then there's kind of no real length institution They're a country with another country's flag in it Earlier this year is really weird. There's loads of pictures of the Queen way more than here. It's very weird Yeah, it's really weird like I was in Victoria and like there's this big statue that big statues of Queen Victoria everywhere and like I did an event at Melbourne Town Hall and there's a big like those pictures of the Queen in Melbourne Town Hall Very weird and like they're they much they're incredibly like tuned into UK politics in a way that we we are not tuned into Australian politics Strange there's a 30 million people in like Asia this huge continent and it's just kind of all of those sort of that It's like you would think American cultural imperialism would liberate them a bit though But it's a long way from the states. It's not much to do in Australia. There isn't except like casual racism and Just kidding. I went to Australia once and it was it was lovely Ozzie they make good coffee. Ozzie's checking in. That's a cultural imperialism. They're not drinking tea anymore Even even the coffee can be condemned Australian media is toxic astral Australia's Australian sky news is kind of wacky. It's like it makes Katie Hopkins kind of look like a moderate Anyway, can I just say one word for Australia though? Yeah, it produced Nick Cave and for that we must all be grateful. Yeah, very true Did labor make a mistake in not focusing on labor leave areas early in the campaign No Well, yes. So my aunt yes and no so my answer that is a labor made a mistake by not Pivoting to its second referendum position earlier But I think it needed to win back Remainers by pivoting to that before it could win back levers So I think it should have made the pivot much earlier possibly even before the EU elections and then built its story and then focused on Winning back levers the whole thing was far too late but for one reason or another that I won't bought anybody with I've ended up in Speaking to lots of labor levers either via interviews my books or just kind of being in focus groups and my impression is that The thing that that group of people value more than anything is clarity especially women like I've in my experience is a bit of a gender divide in the sense that men tend to be more Emotionally invested in Brexit whereas women are more kind of Anxious about the kind of catastrophe narrative of no deal and that kind of thing and I think that group really would like clarity about what Brexit actually means for The country for their community for their families and so on and I think That is something that labor failed to provide so I would say Yes, they were too late But they also needed to but only because the whole thing was too late and they also needed to win back their wavering remain vote Earlier because I just don't think that labor can survive without its remainers because you like it needs remainers and levers But also the remainers are the ones that tend to go and door knock more for them Well, there's just two parts of that question. One is the empirical which I'm not equipped to answer Which is sounds sounds right, you know, it's as far as this particular election other than the other I think point of emphasis should be on class the alignment and losing historical Bastions and in general when center left social democratic parties all over Europe have lost their historic base be it Certain red belts or formerly industrialized areas in Germany and elsewhere. They just don't gain it back and That could be a spiral to future defeats in the weakening of kind of Of the party, so that's I guess that would be the case for just making sure that you know if you lose You know Certain voters now you might not get them get them back whereas Remain voters In the south of England you might get back in the next election. So here's the thing I think lay there's a lot of Working-class voters in the north. I know we would say what there's middle-class people in the north There's working-class people in the south but a lot of these seats which and also Wales Wales is a labor heartline and everyone forgets Well, South of Wales is probably the most culturally labor place in the UK south of Wales The most the most radical people in this country are Welsh Gen X's Have you know that Manich Street preachers and stuff like they'll be like, oh, no The culturally There's a is I think is all right. Oh god, okay fine But there's lots of there's lots of really cool what sort of Welsh Gen X are culture like Keras Matthews and you'll find out they're actually got a really long They'll be like helping refugees in Greece or something like much better than English Gen X is anyway again huge generalization What I wanted to say was a lot of those plays Michael Sheen Who's Craig Bellamy voting for You know what that's a really good question kind of I bet it's labor He'd be the sort of he has no reason to vote labor, but his family's probably all labor voters Probably not voting, but I hope he's voting labor. Great. What a weird thing to ask Watching is a Craig. Well, it's kind of like a you know, a formally decent footballer. Yeah, I'm liveable. Yeah, very good But also he part of we tried to get part of in the promoted that was his finest finest What I was gonna say is I think labor aren't gonna get a lot of those votes back until they're in power until they can Actually demonstrate they can do things for working communities So they may win those seats Bolts over Barnsley Grimsby, etc But the idea they're gonna get big majorities again I think they're gonna have to actually demonstrate that Working-class people can see things improve if they vote for a labor party to get into government and that policy That's just my opinion Let's take a couple more Before we do actually it's great little poll up from savanta comrades Labor up three today just a poll. Yeah, just out and at this evening Tourism 41. That's good. Just no polls Trust no polls labor on 36. So five behind and that's the last savanta cause comrades pole so Could be worse How reputable Don't toy don't toy with my ICM be a ICM be a bit ICM BMG and comrades rule basically showing a five-point lead now You guys a bit more Servations a lot a lot more for the Tories. I mean I looked at the salvation thing I did a newsletter as ridiculous as toilet paper But I mean a five-point difference is interesting because that would be hung parliament territory Obviously depends where anyway, let's take a couple more questions and then we'll call it a night Oh, that's a good question. Let's finish with this actually Tom Knight How could really bad weather affect the election tomorrow? Well, obviously like in the EU referendum one of the theories because what a remain turnout wasn't high enough. That was a big problem And one of the theories was it was really rainy And people just didn't want to go and vote I Think that would be a problem for labor actually bad weather because most elderly Tories tend tend to be postal voters and Young voters who are who are a bit more ambivalent about voting. I think could be put off by bad weather so Yeah, yeah, that's right. Normally bad weather is bad for for a center left and left wing party. Oh, really? Yeah Because you know God hates the atheists Yeah, that is why yeah Right, yeah, I mean obviously a lot of postal votes will be for older voters, but I wonder because also because labor has the better ground game right labor can actually get people out on on Streets actually knock on people's doors. Can you please vote? I know it's shit weather. Whereas the toys can't do that So I'm kind of forecast to be bad tomorrow. I'm kind of neutral Depends the further north you go the worse is I think up north. It's quite bad, but then I mean whether up north is always bad It was a little June election Yeah, that's time. Well, you know what I think about is there was a UK and co-action in December 2010 Do you remember and it was snowing? Yeah, it's embasted through a snowball at me Yeah, and I was like for crazy and I was like, well, this is interesting small people than was ever in good weather So I think if people want to go they'll they'll go, but I know what you mean It could be it could be the difference in as we've seen 2% swing and in 44 seats It could be the difference in a lot of places Should we leave it there? It's your show. It's not my Michael Walker show but for this evening anyway, you've both been wonderful. Thank you Very kind of you to join us given how hard you're what you're working. You know, because you've you're pretty good But you're pretty kind of permanently jet like that. Yes, because Haven't slept in a while, but I'm glad to be here, you know, the weather was actually really good today compared to what it is in New York this time of year Which is kind of my contrarian take which is weather and England is actually underrated But come to New York in summer or winter and you'll see what I mean. Are you gonna watch any basketball games while you're here? It's basically impossible if you are a basketball fan and you live you live here. You have you know, my My respect that's it's basically one night. We will have sort of having a drink after maybe during conference You know, I know I need to go back to the hotel and watch the next game or something I was like two hours But why would you watch basketball in a nation that has the only acceptable sport as its main sport, which is football? Well, no I watch I watch football And also a cricket, you know as a Windy's fan, you know, I think it's true cricket points to the future that we could have had as a United West Indian Federation. You're Trinidadian, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, I actually have a Commonwealth passport So if I stay here if I just overstayed this this visa and just stay here I think I come a Labour Party member in six months or something, right? I mean, yeah After if I was a resident No, only if they're residents This is this is the start of life. No, I know lots of common but people friends with Commonwealth systems were voting Okay, yeah, but you can't they just to be clear I just arrived this morning on the plane if if in fact they could vote then, you know, we would have a great turnout strategy Can you imagine momentum getting the plane over from Jamaica? Yeah, that would be good for the whole green Green agenda on that note. You've both been great. Yeah, this is Navarro media If you like what you've been watching go to support.navarromedia.com. We'll be back tomorrow night for election session We start I believe at 9 30 So hit the subscribe button to be reminded of that click that little bell icon you can see next to subscribe Means a lot and we'll see you tomorrow night. Good night