 let's come back together. The the issue here though is not to finish the conversation. The issue is to start everybody thinking and to get those ideas up so we have a collaborative a collaborative set of work that we can take forward both on projects and indeed on some of the policy questions. So there was a lot of there was a lot of overlap in concept if not ideas. The person on the panel who said the price of waste is too cheap who said that? Was it friends? I'm not sure. But nevertheless I heard people talking about well how do you crowd source good ideas? That overlapped with Bill's challenge about if they're good ideas they've also got to be be a common good so you're not going to recycle poisons for example and so you are going to recycle water and the things that are good for society and make profitable a base out of that. There was also the question if it's too cheap then then and you're actually taxing recycling products so a business who recycles their own products is basically doing double taxation that's ridiculous. So how do you price with tax incentives waste that is simply discarded and indeed provide incentives for waste that is recycled. And then there were a really good set of ideas about flow of materials and waste to production and not just the policy ideas around regulatory incentive but indeed better data management to link the capacity for the the circular economy. So there's a lot of deep thinking going on here. I was just going to call on one or two peoples. Stuart Pan from HP can you tell us what you thought was the really big idea in your group? We were talking about the role of sovereign wealth funds in circular economies and the question how do you have a capital model for sustainability? How do you measure circular economy? What's the new sets of benefits? And you know when we look at it we think about doing good things but I don't think we've really captured the whole new economic model involved in using stuff over and over again. I was thinking how when we go to our investors you know they like hearing the story but they also like seeing the hard cost benefits. We can't quite figure out how to do that in an easily explainable way. So that's the one I'm okay. So the economic model that shows that it's not just doing good it's profitable as well. I think that's a huge challenge. Let me just go over here and pick someone at random. What struck you as the really significant idea you want to keep thinking about? For me I think information for me information on cost of waste. How do we visualize that and how do we direct that towards the consumer ideas for that and also crowd sourcing for ideas? Okay so there's two big ones. How do you actually make the price of waste public and crowd source ideas for solutions? And I think we've got time for one more so I'm gonna pick this person here and say what are you thinking about right now? What really struck you? Interesting. I think two things. I think one was one thing that we talked about was the need to think just more about collaborative design. So how do you actually influence the upfront product design use fewer components fewer resources better modularity so you can replace certain parts and keep the overall structures and so we had some folks who were involved in medical technologies and others where there's a high kind of value for refurbished product so that was one. The other actually was for me personally I was really compelled by the comment that Franz made about shifting the thinking from initial pricing to total cost of ownership and how do you actually change consumer behavior and understanding so it's not just the product developers and suppliers we're thinking about this but you shift consumer demand to value company products that have resale value and have higher quality and last longer. There you go. There's a wise link in to somebody who you probably most of you know where is Matthew Stanislaus. I can't see him over here. Come on over here. Matthew's going to actually talk to you about what the platform in 2018 will do in terms of focusing particularly on two priority but cost cutting policy challenge and then I'm going to help him draw out of a few people one big idea for policy so let's hand it to Matthew. Thank you. Thank you. So really is try to get your guidance so in the consultations that the team has had over this period of time policy has been identified as one of the top levers to really accelerate a circular economy and I'll give you some of the ideas that have come up the whole border issue the transport goods for remanufacturing across both national and subnational border has been an issue that's been raised consistently. The definition of waste being so broad that it prohibits refurbishment inhibits business to business transactions has been identified public procurement policies and then to look at public procurement would globally is about 20 percent of GDP and how can public procurement really achieve its promise in a way that's not done to date. Looking at design and incentives and I think there is a possibly a debate that played out in our group whether it's a echo based mandatory design aspect or an incentive based design role you know some believe that it's should be an incentive based to allow the market to kind of drive it and some believe it should be kind of some specific echo design parameters. So what I'd like to throw out to you is what the platform wants to do beginning with this conversation is what do you think should be the top one two or maybe three policies both from from an impact perspective but also from a durability perspective durability from the perspective of is there alignment among a broad set of stakeholders. Is it doable in the short term. I'll give you some extreme examples. So renegotiation of trade agreements has been flagged or trade agreements has been flagged as it inhibits circularity might be willed pasted be a method but we're not going to be able to renegotiate trade agreements at least in there but there are ways within trade agreements to enable the transport of material. So UK is welcome in Netherlands without disrupting existing definitions but enabling through transparency mechanism the flow of goods for remanufacturing. So what are those viable short term solutions that we can hit the ground show success and then scale up from there. So that's your charge. Okay this is your challenge I'm gonna ask one person from each group notice not more than a sentence if you're gonna try and convince the platform that a key policy you've been dealing with collaborative projects what's the policy piece you want them to focus on and this is a bit like a Dutch auction so you know you get your one sentence who wants to go here. No you're thinking about it come on faster than that who's gonna jump in over here. Oh okay yeah go for it. No Kevin's thinking about it yeah who's over here no come on there's one poll it yes. Well I liked very much don't see systems only as the holy grail that was the only one sentence but at its side sentence would be also think of the different bottom-up approaches. Okay don't see systems as the only approach look at bottom-up approaches you're gonna have to figure out what the policy piece is there Matthew. Okay yes I've got a hand over here. I think if it's about public policy it's time to modernize waste laws because they're designed to stop fly tipping so if we've got a waste product we have to license it to move it on the road but it's actually it's a perfectly good material other people can use it's screwing over a lot of our ideas. I'd buy that one modernize waste laws that's doable it's something we can advocate and it makes sense. Circular economy is tremendous business opportunity and economic growth. But what's the policy piece in that what do you want a government or a regulatory body to do? I want them to incentivize businesses to go green. Centervise business go mean that's kind of like world peace but let's see. Okay over here who's got an idea in this group yes I can see it. I think the one thing could be avoid landfill completely avoid landfill. Yeah let's eliminate landfill I think we're in on that one that's gonna be a bit of a challenge Matthew but see if you can do it by January Davos January okay he's got a he's got a challenge over here. Just as 100 resilient cities placed a hundred chief resilient officers in cities around the world there was an idea to create a similar program focused on chief circular officers and try to create a knowledge sharing network of people that are placed within government at a local level to think about how circularity can be impactful and then try to advance that mainstream. Okay chief circular officers think about that okay and there was one group over here I'm not letting you off the hook yes Kevin's back okay. So I was the proponent for for incentive market-based solutions I I'm not sure I'd go with mandating the specific solution in all these situations I think if we can put the right market-based solutions in then that's really take the equivalent of the idea of carbon pricing and price these resources that we want to be controlled companies will then know how to innovate they will come up with the most efficient solution so I'm a big proponent for those market-based solutions through implemented through policy. Okay so carbon pricing tick but what is the pricing on other products that will incentivize people yes and the last. Well you were a little bit critical in our group because we didn't have a policy recommendation so you still get it so there was energy here in the group around best practice sharing both for companies but also for governments because we don't so we want to encourage governments to write policy but it should be the right policy right so if we collect best practices from government policy around the world and start educating policymakers you know this works here's a best practice here's how it's been done and then they can copy paste it I thought that was a very good recommendation from my neighbor here. Governments to share best policies and some open transparency so can people talk about I'll squeeze in one more minute but that's it. Okay thank you I'm lacking one perspective here what about the consumers who supposed to buy the circular goods so can policy be in such a way done that that it's attractive for people to buy goods which are circular. So reduce that on circular production I don't know but yeah it's a good challenge oh you're pushing it oh he's a big guy I might be scared to say no. It's a build on what you just said a very simple one would be for instance to eliminate VAT on products that are not being sold but used as a service and then we turn to the manufacturer. There you go there's a challenge now I do understand Maddie that Astrid Shoemaker from the European Commission's in the room is that right yeah okay Astrid so we shouldn't lose your voice this is the challenge the big policy questions what are you thinking about you know from the Commission perspective. I didn't really want to be put on the spot quite like that but you know having listened to all of that I think two things I would still add one is the holistic perspective so that is not just have a policy model that either looks at waste or just looks at the consumer but that tries to bring in everybody and looks at the whole supply chain and starts in particular with design and mandates echo design for repairability reusability recyclability etc so brings about products that are circular and that can be done through legislation or incentivizing or whatever way and I think the second part that was missing from the discussion here is really the financial aspect the new business models will need a better understanding of our financial system how to finance them and I think of like an SME but the great idea coming to the local bank and says you know I no longer want to sell a cleaning product I want to sell clean rooms and by the way that means selling less of my product I just sell the service and the local bank will just stare at the guy and say have you gone nuts and this kind of discussion we need to have how can we bring about an understanding of these new business models and what has to fall. I think you're a perfect partner for the platform don't you friends so thank you and no I'm cutting this off and running back to Matthew who's gonna wrap up but don't lose any of those ideas because Antonia and Matthew and the team are around and they can follow up with you well thank you for your contribution and your reward for your contribution is that I may actually call you immediately after this so I think the goal is to lead up in the lead up to Davos is to actually identify that one two or three issues that the PACE team should actually develop and design solutions and to have that implemented so the plan of the PACE team is actually pull together a policy priority paper you know so what I hope to do hopefully you will take my phone calls is for those ideas that have been put on the table I'd like to flesh them out and really get some sense of prioritization over the next few weeks and that will then lead to a policy paper which will attempt to summarize the priorities and maybe get a second wave of input that will then inform the selection of the top policies at Davos so my ask is take my call okay but think but think further about again the policies that could scale up that are workable that could be adopted in the near future and I think that I know I know Antonia mentioned earlier but where the acceleration is happening in terms of material intensity is in the developing world right so the material intensity in Asia Pacific for example went from Asia Pacific was about 20% in 1970 to about 50% today now clearly substantial amount of that is to provide goods for us in the West you know but there is this whole well should the policy focus from a regional perspective be the place of material intensity or should it be both in terms of the consumer side as someone mentioned so something for you all to kind of cogitate on and hopefully when you take my call you have an answer to that but thank you and don't wait for his call if you've actually got a great idea for a policy incentive that you think is already kind of gaining momentum that's doable call Matthew or indeed and email him at least and he'll call you back because seriously this is I think Antonio you'd want me to say this is a network of equals and creative ideas are the wealth of the platform that the whiff is building so call email harass Maddie because that's the way we're going to get the ideas on the table now don't forget if you haven't got your post notes up with your name organization and contact details then he won't be able to call you so make sure they're on the board it's looking better but I think there's probably a few ideas still floating around I wanted to actually throw now two friends to tell us how we're going to take these things forward what are the next steps and what do you want to see build to Davos because that is the challenge well let's say my role in the in this platform is to help convene and to help get us together but there'd be no misconception that the work needs to be done by all of us right so it's a relatively new platform we focused very much on plastics before and now we want to bring it to the wider concept of the circular economy the fact that you're all here means that there is a lot of energy for the topic there are more stickies on the on the boards than we probably can handle and we have to make choices but the most valuable outcome of this afternoon is the mobilization of more people towards this cause of promoting circular economy right and so can only repeat what what Matthew from the World Economic Forum has just said make sure that you get your name on the list if you want to contribute make sure that you identify how you can help we will try to get to a concise priority list for the near term and then I hope that we can see each other in Davos to take this whole lot further right and then the experience from these platforms is you need to iterate the few times this is after all a voluntary group of people that try to get together and make an impact it can be done it has been done before and let's now do it for the circular economy it will be one contribution towards a better world and that is what I think we are all motivated by so thank you for being here it was a creative session full of energy it may feel a little bit inconclusive because we haven't drawn that single conclusion about what we are going to do but you know be realistic that will now be worked on with this input and make sure that your names are on here then you can be part of it thank you okay so give him a big hand and thanks for the leadership there was one idea in the room that I thought absolutely took it for me and it was by one phone if I can characterizes that why wouldn't we challenge Apple to build in obsolescence they're doing it anyway but build it in or Samsung or any other brand and put it put a timeframe on it but then hand your phone back to the company so they actually are responsible for recycling it before you get your next one whether it's a year or two years or whatever you want to do but by one phone I thought was a great idea and frankly we have to get to the point of corporate responsibility and indeed the consumer incentive to do the right thing so one takeaway for me I think that's just one area of the work as Fran says there's a lot of production out there there's a lot of ideas a lot of materials that are being reused or recycled and we've got to get to the dream of that young entrepreneur that says frankly if you can't reuse it or recycle it don't deploy it in the first place thank you all for being here I think we're about three minutes ahead of time Antonio so you've got time to add to the board Antonio be here Matthew be here don't feel that yep you have to go away without making sure that the wefts staff understand if you want something on the agenda and again can I say to the leadership of Philips to Naoki and the GF and others great platform it really can change the world so thank you very much