 okay great okay so um yesterday so yesterday um after you left uh mark so Liam and I we kind of we made a list and Liam please feel free to jump in at any time so we made a list of these four items and um that we thought that uh perhaps the outreach sig could work on um as a way to help move the project forward right so the first item is under the educational outreach which you are very well aware of uh mark and so the goal here I think for the initial goal is just to um develop a written program and I put a link um of where I you know the inspiration came from and then the second item is um of course uh DevOps world so I wanted to um see if we can you know get volunteers to work with me on you know what is it that we want the community track to look like this year right um and and of course uh reviewers for the CFP um the third item is diversity in Jenkins community and Liam I'll let you talk about this one sure um basically there's uh the Jenkins the set of contributors there there are there's a wide range of people that contribute to Jenkins but by and large like at these um these meetups mostly what I see is white dudes and uh uh of of varying ages some of us getting more crusty over time um and it's that that saddens me and I'm like I don't I don't have an answer of how how to address this but it certainly is um one of those things where it's like how can we get what things can we do to invite in a broader range of people I mean I think to be fair to to be fair to where we are the the set of contributors to Jenkins in large part comes from the people that have worked with Jenkins which have tended to be people that get stuck in the server room which tends to be you know so um you know you get it's a self-selecting uh group for people that are that that have a vested interest right but um you know I'm using this tool so then I'm going to work on it and that's um so we get our pipeline of people tends to be you know our our pool tends to be from that same group but there's got to be ways that we can uh draw a wider audience there's nothing about this about Jenkins itself that or as far as I'm concerned the people really in the community that says we're not you know open and inviting and interested in having more people contribute in a wider range it's I guess there's some some other thing things that we should look at right um because I mean when I'm thinking about it's like I don't think that the I think there's some things the community itself could do to to be more uh friendly to new contributors and stuff like that but like that that there's a there's maybe something before the hey here's my first PR hey I'm interested in working on this of how do we get people a broader spectrum of people in that funnel right yeah so both of those things but I you know I like that so so it seems it seems well aligned with a topic we were discussing in some depth in the east version of the docs track earlier today um so Xenob Abu Bakar is our uh Google season of docs author that we had do the Kubernetes on or Jenkins on Kubernetes documentation Xenob is based out of Nigeria and is a leader in the Sheikot Africa initiative and Sheikot Africa has a program that they're launching there they launched it now asking for corporate sponsors and for open source projects that people can work on so that Sheikot Africa project runs for the month of April to invite funded developers funded women in Africa to assist with open source projects and so what we need is we need project ideas that we can bring to it and we need corporate sponsors so Alyssa and I have already approached our shared employer and have good traction on that I'm going to ping several other folks in different organizations for instance we've got Alex Earl with Broadcom we've got Jim Crowley with IBM we've got several interesting candidates that may be willing to support Sheikot Africa as a way to then get those people involved in the Jenkins community as part of a very specifically targeted activity so I think that's a great idea Oleg also noted that outreach and specific outreach is probably the most important thing we can do in terms of help of the project we need we have lots of ideas of things we can do what we lack our hands to do them and the way we get hands to do them is by exactly these outreach programs that you're noting yeah I like the diversity and the educational outreach and those kind of things yeah right yes so Mark for that program I think CDF might be able to be able to sponsor that program as well that's Sheikot okay yeah good idea yeah so as part of the so so what in the conversation we had in the docs is enough noted or in the docs track seen I've noted that Sheikot Africa is really as much about code as it is about documentation so documentation is just a peripheral thing or is just one of many ways to contribute they're they're willing to have their contributors assist with code assist with promotion assist with other activities so and and I like that the idea of proposing the CDF that they might also be a sponsor I thought Oleg had a good concept that having the Jenkins project be actually a financial sponsor of the Sheikot Africa project is probably not a not a sensible thing because one open source project is sponsoring another is not as effective as persuading corporations to sponsor open source projects I see so so and I think that's fair the the Jenkins projects funds should be used directly for the Jenkins project wherever possible okay that makes sense so I think like the so like the education outreach can also be under the diversity in Jenkins community and or growing SIG participation I think all that and then I also started looking into what other organizations are doing with regards to diversity right and I found that you know it starts out like say it starts out at home so it starts out on our homepage or Jenkins.io how are we communicating that we are accepting diversity that we welcome this right so are we doing that number one so that's why I put that first bullet and sorry when I wrote that down I didn't really go back to Jenkins.io to look but I thought maybe you know we should have that on there that explains that you know we are a supporter of diversity and and then as far as growing the SIG participation I put a link there and I look at which link that was uh was um yeah the outreachy internship supporting open source and such I forget why I looked at that but oh that was like oh um a paid internship right um I mean and it's and it's for my diverse especially so it supports diversity yeah and then the other thing is on somewhere on um along let me find the link to that page but there there was a page that explains you know how a first time contributor can contribute I mean it spells it all out I have to find that page but it's somewhere on my screen but I thought that was really helpful you know if if this is if this is what we want to do um might be good to have instructions on you know if you're a brand new first time you know welcome these are the steps that you can do this well and so certainly certainly we're getting we're getting if we if I look at diversity in the community if we look at google summer of code there's a there's a great example of a diverse a wide spectrum of contributors we got contributors from India there contributors from China contributors from Malaysia or Singapore I forget you know so so lots of lots of different people involved in those contributions Natasha Stopa from Pennsylvania was I think it was a year ago so so we've got a broad a broad swath of people contributing there and yeah I like that yeah and I think we just need to make sure to call out or highlight contributors we I think we should make an effort to do that at least maybe on a monthly quarterly basis but give them a place to shine and the spotlight you know that may perhaps that they can say hey I did this with you know maybe their future um um employer mm-hmm at my house what if what if we were to do something like that as part of the as part of the jumbotron for instance some sort of a rotating view of here here are four or five contributors when Cara presented her um google summer of code summary today she put up a very nice set of six or seven pictures of the google summer of code students and I find those pictures quite engaging should we consider something like that if we could find hey on the Jenkins authors page there are individuals there that we might say hey if they've got a picture in it let's highlight them and do it for some fixed period two weeks or a month and as part of the jumbotron and then rotate and highlight a different set yeah now the the problem with that is that only gets authors from that site and and that's a tiny fraction of the total contributors to Jenkins I don't know that spin it connectiony for instance in in uh in the Czech Republic has a picture on the on the site so may not or of Keiji Zhang who is who is definitely a contributor from google summer of code or even Xenob I'm not sure that Xenob's actually got a photo on there so so the idea may be good but the implementation may be completely unworkable because we just don't have the right data there yet I see but that is data that we can ask it is and and it's certainly data we can solicit right we can yeah we can ask them hey could you please um yeah could you please help us highlight contributors to Jenkins and and our selection can bias strongly towards people that we think will be interesting and and fun to see and interesting because they're diverse I admit it I think I'm interesting but I'm middle-aged white male I have to acknowledge that I mean I don't think we should I don't think we should you know avoid highlighting people but it's more just like I think there I think there are we highlight more so right and I think you've got it exactly this is not a downplaying of anyone this is rather an emphasizing that this is a broad and very diverse community and it is it's a fascinatingly diverse community so I think you're right so um so based on these four items mark uh I mean do these look okay that we we what is the next step I'm trying to figure out what's the next step yeah so so I think tomorrow in the in the roadmap presentation or in the yeah in the concluding session present these four as as I as plans to be on the roadmap and I think I would even put the review committee yeah put put all four of them up as part of that the slide deck for the final and I haven't even created the slide deck yet so we put them up for the slide deck and and then you talk to them and solicit input the intention is that tomorrow's closing session will be a working session so we're going to we're going to share these these ideas and then we invite further comments and then as we as we do that we may say okay we would like to put these things into the roadmap and and we think advocacy should be part of the Jenkins roadmap as well uh I don't know if it's actually got a place right now for for advocacy does it I'm now checking yeah because if it doesn't I think it's it's worth a discussion to say hey we think oh it does we've got events community events absolutely okay where is the roadmap anyways just it's jenkins.io slash project slash roadmap like this so let's look at it and here if I click just the subset that are outreach programs and community events and and those those both seem like great great places for us to put so we had community bridge as a mentorship potential and we've done one community bridge project so we know it can work but it would be good to do more and then Jenkins on Kubernetes online meetups we've we'd started those and yeah so we have the places how do you get to that roadmap from the top navigation I always go like this I go to any old page scroll to the bottom structure and governance and then here is the roadmap structure and governance yeah that I agree that it's not it may not be natural but then again I am not a website designer so me designing web page navigation is is is well beyond my depth we could certainly put it for instance here as part of community it's or yeah and I just I was just like people talk about talk about this a bunch of them like okay I just there's there's this is a cool page it's very visual and very right highlights all the things that are available and or at least a number of things that are available and this is totally worth putting up there right yeah well let's test this what if it were under about about has only five items what if we had roadmap and under there and I would even navigate have more than one way to get to it maybe okay so so the about definitely right and then community overview it could be I mean it could be here let's see sub-projects doesn't really obviously fit because this really is about sub-projects it's about major components and this is more the overall I mean it does it map to does it map to the SIGs or not it not it maps to more than just the SIGs right right there there certainly are SIG representation but we could for instance we could on every SIG page put a link to the roadmap for that SIG right saying hey look let's see the road section yeah exactly because that gives us a link to something live right okay trying to think of where community overview see somehow taking somewhere in the community section as well but I'm not really sure where okay you think well yeah and we could certainly put it it seems every bit as interesting as wiki yeah sorry wiki is no longer interesting right yeah I don't think there's any benefit to us having the wiki link because it's read only now so we replace could replace it with roadmap yeah sounds great okay so at least those two places and the third one being in the projects the not the projects the SIGs right uh so so oh in the projects yes see I hesitated to put it in sub-projects and I didn't see how well I can certainly submit poll requests for all three I'll submit them as three independent poll requests so that way we can have the discussions about them in the poll request because it's those are those are very reasonable places to consider should we add it to two of the three one of the three all three and I don't think I don't think it makes sense in documentation and certainly plugins is not not roadmap so but but by the way I have to show you this notice what comes up when we do this see this search by Algolia this is Gavin's prototype of real search really cool search indexing so that you didn't know that strategy and strategies are both the same word but Algolia knows okay so Alyssa back to your oh it's fine well mark how do we um add the these items onto the roadmap through is it through poll requests as well it it is so so I think what we do is tomorrow during the presentation present them as ideas and then get agreement that yes they are good roadmap entries and then after the conclusion of tomorrow's session you and I can pair together and work on submitting the poll request okay because I've got a number of other roadmap changes that I need to update where the documentation roadmap is needs to be updated and several others therefore it just be more efficient for you and me to do it together tomorrow or the next day okay that sounds good now I don't know if if devops world review committee will I'm I would expect that one may get some friction on hey why not a review committee for cd cd con or why not and they may say that shouldn't be on the roadmap but I'm cool with that I think the others are are very much roadmap topics right we okay we really do want them okay present all four and let's see what the what the voices say all right and then so so then once that they approve as items for the roadmap and then we take this to the outreach sick and then we work out the plan is that is that the plan right okay and then do we have to provide additional details on what we have currently have here on this document oh I'm sure I'm sure that it will be expected that we we have get a plan together on hey how are we going to do these things that we think are good ideas right and that's for tomorrow no no tomorrow we'll get a bunch of I think what Mark was saying was that tomorrow we'll get a bunch of feedback people say hey we could try this we can try that we'll get some brainstorming and some more information and opinions and thoughts with people and then synthesize those after the next steps after the summit okay got it yeah so the idea was let's bring these these concepts to the to the larger group tomorrow and then then listen for feedback there okay um I guess let's see here diversity arts and participation um I guess under the SIG participation is where I put the roadmap just if you want to just track this is it it's a matter of making things visible right so right participation make me in part is make the the roadmap which has all of those sort of projects and where they're at and how to find them and make that more visible on the GX that's that's the place right yeah and so the idea there was let's see let me be about section about here because only got five in it and then replacing wiki with community with roadmap because and then and then also in the SIGs or the subprojects uh the SIGs each of the SIGs does have right each I think the notion was each SIG page particularly advocacy and outreach documentation should link to the roadmap right we want to we want to create a web of links to the roadmap yeah I think if you click on one of those you'll we already have like sort of metadata in there that you can write we can you know provide a little a little a small little mass link so that it's not a huge imposition to get there right just a minute while I grab a picture of this to remind myself where we where we think it should go show it should really go there good all right so the idea was propose it under about under community and under subprojects links from individual SIG pages uh subprojects or SIGs either oh right sorry from individual from SIG so it's SIG pages link to roadmap yeah very good yeah we did it for a few SIGs initially but it it wasn't consistent yeah so this just we'll just make it consistent that way um that way it's brings it up a little higher good super hi Oleg yeah hi Oleg late for you yeah Oleg we didn't need to to drag you out this late in the day thank you very much for being here but you're that's sort of her heroism beyond the call you're doing okay yeah i'm still in the office oh my oh dear oh i'm gonna get scolded so severely oh my sake so oh the scoldings that will be epic for that great okay well that's okay oh that's fine yep so for me for SIG participation i just the current state reflects the state of overall contributions because yeah there are usual suspects and there are people who are not that connected to the wider community and in order to get these people who are participating in SIGs presenting and contributing if the rather requires continuous outreach and to do the outreach need basically people doing that right because yeah when we were pushing particular SIGs we're easily getting to 10 15 people on the call but yeah when it stops then it stops right well and for me there's there's an element of growing the SIGs by these these outreach programs uh GSOC google chicote africa community bridge or outreach you through community bridge but those tend more to be one at a time and cash needing cash right whereas i think all like what you're describing here is it's not only about cash it's also about temporary involvement and then that for example yeah last year we deliberately tied all projects to SIGs but it was difficult to get students and mentors participating in SIG meetings we were successful for some of them but not for all cases given though there was direct communication to all mentors that yeah it's expected this year and moreover well students come and go mentors come and go and the SIGs are rather both specific topics so for me it would be more important to actually attract company contributors to SIGs than to do outreach programs so outreach programs is a way to facilitate projects SIGs are interested in because SIGs could provide an umbrella so for example you are interested in platform support there is a group of interested contributors and we can run out a SIG program to get it done including funding etc but in order to get participants I would rather start from actually getting people and companies participating and if they are interested in what the SIG is doing in particular agenda then it could be the best way to actually get the SIG going so for example arm support we can definitely find a bunch of companies interested in that or let's say Jenks pipeline debugger if you announce this topic like this many people would join the pipeline out drink meeting okay yeah for company contributors you really need excuse me so what are you interested in people directly well and so so this is one Oleg are you envisioning for instance we've got Jim Crowley from IBM right now who's interested because of IBM's interest in doing work on it we've got we could potentially have AWS involved or Google in terms of their cloud as part of a platform kind of effort is is that the sort of thing that you're in you're thinking of there yeah for example for AWS and for Azure we had company representatives at the cloud native SIG for a while and we separate them but in principle we had people there good right I mean for instance we've got we've got Alex Earl who participates but he's really even though he's from Broadcom I don't think his participation is motivated primarily by Broadcom's business because I think here what you're thinking is let's let's try to combine a company's business interest with the needs of the Jenkins project and align those for progress so IBM would like 390 support and they're certainly ARM vendors that want ARM support yeah yeah so something like that so special interest groups are a way to facilitate particular efforts and the best way to do that is to ensure that participants have individual interest in the topics right good good good insight yeah so that's when I I certainly know of some companies that I can connect with that encourage them to to join up to the platform SIG and get involved yeah so this sounds to me similar to like what CDF does so they have the different committees or groups working groups right and then so companies send their employee or to become a member or participate in that working group so I think this is the same idea that Oleg is suggesting right Oleg does does CDF do active active recruiting because I I took Oleg's advice here that we should actively recruit and identify hey we think we've got something interesting going on in the Jenkins project relative to what you're doing we would love to have your your participation so from what I know I think it's the members the members of CDF they are the ones that's so they pay CDF to be a member and then they also send you know a representative from their company to be on one of those working groups I have I don't think I know of anyone that isn't a member and that's just you know volunteer their time and to be in those working groups unless they're they are like an ambassador or something like that but you may have highlighted something there what about the CDF member companies right they're already they are a good example of someone who's already invested in contributing to continuous delivery foundation maybe we should consider asking their representative hey we've got this initiative or go to the CDF meetings and say we've got these initiatives going on would love to have additional people come help us yeah we can definitely ask although I know it's it's it's quite challenging with those of us that's already sitting on those working groups plus our you know our you know nine to five your full day work so that might be a challenge well I wonder if this is something I should take up with with Tracy as to yeah hey what what are appropriate boundaries for us to invite CDF member companies to assist us or us invite the representatives to be more to increase their involvement yeah why not so any other topics that we should be sure we go over today Alyssa I think for me I'm good I think we've covered all that we needed okay and so I'll send you a link to a skeleton presentation that we can use for tomorrow's tomorrow's material I think most of the session should be focused on conversation but it's good to have these kind of concepts from each of the each of the tracks so that then we can get feedback and have discussions in that session okay um before we go uh I have a an off-topic question mark so feel free to um unrecord oh okay let me well look we'll call you ready let's stop the recording and