 Hello everyone, this is Ross at Teacher Talk at the most influential blog on education in the UK today I'm delighted to be joined by English teacher Jenny Webb. Jennifer, good afternoon. Good evening. How are you? Hello, I'm well. Thanks. Thank you for having me. Let me just start off with the the simple one. Could I get you to introduce yourself to our listeners and tell everybody what you do? Yeah, so I am an English specialist at secondary. I've been teaching about what 13 years and I'm an assistant principal for teaching and learning at a really phenomenal school in Wakefield Which is in West Yorkshire whoop whoop and called Academy Cathedral. So I lead on teaching and learning and Literacy and line-managed English, but I was right we get we get sound effects as well for the phenomenal So what what makes it phenomenal? the school and Is so I've worked in five secondary schools now and I cannot tell you how wonderful this school is It's one of those places where like without I'm a bit of a dramatic person So I do tend to exaggerate, but I'm certainly not exaggerating in this case I mean they won the Times Ed secondary school of the year in 2019 for just being having the most wonderful culture that just permeates every single corridor every single classroom and I've been there for a few months. I've recently moved and honestly just have never been somewhere with some Absolutely phenomenal kind of basically fundamental values Inform every single decision they make from you know, and the cleaners can tell you what the school values are Okay, so we know we know a building doesn't make a school and if we lifted everyone out of the school and moved them somewhere else Could you bottle that culture? What you know, that's that's the winning formula for us all is it? So what what are the hallmarks of that phenomenal culture? I think so We always say this it sounds really naff, but it's true every school has their little mottos, but this one Yeah, so we talk about every student every lesson every day and we talk about how everything is possible for one who believes It's a it's a C of E school and has a really like kind of and really important Christian faith kind of guiding its work But essentially that just translates into kind of good old socialism and looking after each other and all that kind of thing And but yeah, like I mean we have quite an old building that we're dealing with No, it's not one of these fancy new builds. They have it doesn't matter that the building is sort of not ideal And that was the the rain drop through the roof when it pulls down still absolutely, but the point is the It's the people the people are just the most friendly happy upbeat kind of positive staff ever worked with and the head is Leading that in this really really so I'm a little biased, but I know you've got the best job You can have in a school leading teaching learning of others and I can see that Yeah, and I can see that evident in your blog and books and all sorts of things And that's what tends to happen people that drive this stuff. So Culture phenomenal school. You're doing the best job. So You know without putting you on a pedestal You're kind of in a position where you've got the best conditions, I suppose to really Transform classroom culture. So give me a sense of where You or your school is that in terms of the classroom day-to-day business So, I mean really strong. Obviously we've had I I certainly don't want to I hate the narrative around COVID and how it kind of you know this but COVID and all the kind of excuses Everyone's had a really hard year in education in general I know having been in another school during COVID as well that that's been challenging in different ways for different schools depending on what the cohort is Right teaching and learning is the best job in any school. I am absolutely I'm so fortunate to be where I am and have the role that I've got And I think that What's really interesting in my current school in terms of the challenge and what we're seeing is What's always been going on in classrooms certainly for the last four or five years has been incredibly strong Really really strong kind of there's no firefighting. I've worked. I've been an assistant head for teaching and learning in previous school And while that was a great role and the staff were great and you know, you learn a lot and you achieve things Very very different environment because essentially that was firefighting a lot of the time like a very different context very very different Can I put you on a spot? What what cause what causes the firefighting? I think a lack of strategic vision from the top. I think it's kind of What we're doing all the time when we're firefighting in in kind of ri schools Is reacting to things all the time and we're not getting ahead of it and being proactive and so when Even if we do sit down and set a vision and decide what we want to see What those schools do that continue to firefight despite the vision is that they don't then use that vision to inform their decision making you have a really challenging decision to make so for example Your vision should enable you to make really difficult decisions Because you go back and say this is hard that option's also hard But what's our vision what we really want to get out of this and how you know Which decision does that mean we have to make if that's the difficult one So i'm going to put you in another spot um Could you take your staff from your other school and put them into the current one? Would it change the culture or not? What do you mean like physically would you would you still get the same performance levels in the school? Which is performing at a phenomenal level with But but I think it's it's a nonsense argument to suggest that you can move staff from one school A quote unquote and put them in another school the staff are the school aren't they? Yeah My staff right now could go and teach those kids in a car park and the standards would still be really high It doesn't make any difference. It's not the staff at my previous school were great They really really like they worked hard. They had the right intentions They didn't have the right structures in place and they didn't have the right In place and that's not an individual slight against anyone. That's just That's my observation that Basically a leadership team's job is to set the weather and then take away as many obstacles as they possibly can So that the teaching staff can just teach really well and that's what my current school gets right You know, we are it's like service-based leadership We're supporting the curriculum leaders who have the hardest job in the world And the subject teachers just do their job and like that that's that's great I think that's my job as head of teaching and learning Or part of the teaching and learning team Is essentially to just make everyone else's job as easy as possible And make them really good at it and identify when they have training needs and make sure they get it You know for a higher level Okay, so I'm pushing you I like these answers This is kind of the the push that teaching and learning leads need I might come back to this topic Now we've got a few listeners from different international settings. We've had a whoop whoop already And we've had a we've had a northern that's gravy. Could you explain what that's gravy means? Basically in Yorkshire, we really like gravy gravy People who aren't aware is like a delicious sauce made of meat juices You can have vegetarian gravy But essentially that's... It's pulled over chips All over everything put gravy on everything. Basically, yeah, we we we we have a lot of gravy in the style So you're a gravy on chips girl? I'm a gravy on everything kind of girl. Do you know what? In the style they'd call it Jou, but what they really mean gravy but not enough gravy I like that. I like that. Having returned to the north after 30 years seconded down south Right, Jenny on your blog, which I'm having a little nose through it says you're a teacher, leader, author, blogger and speaker Which one do you do best and which one do you do worst? If I'm honest, I think all of it is teaching Really through various mediums I think that the reason that my books have resonated on my blogs have resonated with people Is that all I'm doing is kind of explaining things in quite a straightforward way I think that's that's what's been really interesting about the feedback for the metacognition book because what a lot of people have said is Oh, I didn't really understand it, but now I really understand it and that that was my my my mission because it's just Everyone's a bit scared because it's a big word and I'm an English teacher teaching big words is what I'm good at So making the complex simple. Yeah, keep it simple. You're always onto a winner You have to ask something concrete Excellent now. I'm going to come back to all your books and blogs and things But I'm just going to go to a couple of questions that I always ask podcast People first question is could you describe your 16 year old self? What do you like at school? It was a massive dweeb Basically like all in all seriousness. I had quite a difficult teenage life For various reasons. So I was People premium single parent family all those things, but we also had Like a social worker and there were lots of challenging things going on. Let's say My childhood and so school for me was very much a safe space Um, I absolutely loved school like in the summer holidays I would volunteer to go into the library and help the librarian sort out the book That's the course was I was absolutely like I was just Infuriatingly grossly smart and obsessed with school. It was it was my entire life. So I was either Doing extra homework doing extra reading in the library in the music department or going to orchestra practice like that Um, yeah, I just loved it. And I think that that's uh I I totally embraced that part of myself and I think what's really important for students in particular like I talk about geeks ruling the world And about yeah, and about totally owning that weird bit of yourself So I'm a medievalist. That's my my degree is in medieval English literature and language Fantastic like old north and anglo-saxon and I love that stuff and I play the bassoon and that's weird Well, I totally stepped into that great Heak enough and so When did when did the teacher conversation start? Where did that start? So I told my mom for ages that I would definitely study medicine And then I told her I don't want to study medicine But I will study law and then I told her Let me study English at uni and then I will do a law conversion And then when I finished my finals, I told her I had a place on a PGCE course So that's kind of how that went. I think I always wanted to be a teacher always But I just had to ease my mom into that. She's totally on here with it now It's taken a while What a great story So after school, you know university PGCE just give us a quick kind of overview. Where was that? What happened? I went to a Comp like an all girls company Sleeds, which was pretty rough brilliant school for me They did absolutely they did great work for me But they had like a 12 and a half percent GCSE pass rate or something when I did PGCEs I stayed there at A level and had amazing A level teachers to be fair like absolute drop draw A level teachers And I swear my history teacher like made me want to be a teacher. She was an amazing woman Miss Batty. What a legend But I went on to read English Oxford at Merton College Which was amazing just like some experience. I felt very northern all of a sudden and like my accent got broader Yeah But yeah, the most incredible three years of my life And PGCE yeah PGCE it leads Yeah, okay in back home my PGCE. Great. Um So And I know you should be in blogging for I think your blog goes back to 2013. You had a little gap in between a suspect Children and job and life gets in the way here or there Yeah, and I think like sometimes I think it's really important especially when people start a blog as well to remember that The blog doesn't own you and you don't have to blog every week blog when you have something to say And I think I just stopped having something to say for a little while, but that's that's fine Well, I'm in trouble because Uh, that's good food for thought for myself. I suppose with the amount of stuff I'm putting out Maybe I should keep quiet for a little while Good stuff Um, okay Give me a little journey in terms of your school leadership career. When did the kind of always leading teaching and learning or have you done a few other things? Yeah, I was an um, I was uh, after being a normal English teacher I moved to become an advanced skills teacher Moved into lead practitioner basically the same job But once at AST was scrapped. Um, and then I was ahead of English in Bradford and then I moved to be an AP teaching and learning and then I've got another AP teaching and learning with research Lead at my current place. So kind of stepped up the pretty traditional route really Yeah, right and and kind of give us, um You know a bit of leadership wisdom give me some of the things that you've learned what to do what not to do Oh, I don't know. Um, I think it's different for everybody, isn't it? Because it totally depends what your It is Well, let's let's zoom it in a little bit. Let's let's say I'm a struggling NQT And I'm in your last school and another struggling NQT in your current school. What kind of words of wisdom would you? You know just for general classroom management or behavior problems or well in general It's it's all about consistency and all about remembering and I would give the same advice Whichever school you're in if I'm honest because there's very little that an NQT can do to change What's going on in the wider school? They they really aren't in a in a powerful position And I always say to NQTs Have a notepad and write down all the things you will never do when you're a leader Because that helped me get through for a long. Yes, it is good advice Yeah, but I think um, the most important thing to remember is that great teaching doesn't happen in a lesson Nobody learns anything in a 50 minute lesson or an hour long lesson. That that's ridiculous nonsense So all you need to do is turn up every day and do a decent job every day be predictable Be consistent be solid Don't try to wipe yourself out making card sorts and stupid things like that It's some it's some very good advice and I think you know for listeners You know having relocated from London up to Yorkshire I've fallen in love with gardening as I reached my fifties and there But I'm drawing lots of analogies from it with teaching and learning You know growing over time the journey, you know regular water water and routines and things I'm I'm clutching at straws here, but yeah, you're right. It's all about routines and consistency I think for anyone regardless of how long you've been teaching um In your role as a research lead Jenny Um, what kind of things does that involve so I know there'll be a lot of people listening thinking Oh, I'd love to get involved with that or I want to work in a school that's research informed Um, what what kind of things does that aspect of your job entail? There are a few different strands really the way I see it the the primary goal of My primary goal the way I see that role because it can be a bit of it can mean different things in different places um, but for me it's about Using what we know through things that have been published and um, kind of any other resources we've got To make the absolute best use of our resources So for example from a leadership perspective if we want to implement a new strategy Which is going to you know take time and resources and kind of energy We need to make sure that we know first of all before we decide to go down that route If there's anything available in the ether that will tell us whether that's a good idea or a bad idea or something We should tweak so essentially I do quite a lot of literature reviews To figure out whether things that my senior colleagues want to do And just make sure that we're making the most of what's out there So that that's that's really important. I think A lot of schools waste a lot of time doing things that actually if they've done the reading They might not have tried in the first place or they could have made a minor tweak And it would have worked a lot better. Um, the other thing is to make sure that staff are Enabled to engage with research in a really meaningful way So that has to go beyond just having a book club, which you know a few teaching and learning geeks get excited about It's about making sure that the teaching staff have the language and the understanding that they need to engage with Research informed practice in a way that's meaningful for them because not everybody wants a book Not everybody wants to do all of that stuff What they need some people is they just want to be in the classroom And they just want you to filter down the stuff that's really useful for them in a way that's practical And I think that that's that's what makes the best edu books and blogs It's making things practical and useful because Most in most classroom teachers are not actually that bothered about all the stuff behind it So you need to have people who are bothered. So the teaching learning team at my school You know, we have lead teachers who engage in this stuff as well And it's really important that in my role, it's about making research accessible visible and have impact And that isn't about confusing people and throwing loads of terminology about it's about Making sure that the stuff we've decided is a priority is done in the best possible most effective way Sounds like it's one role. I mean, I was pretty much doing it in my my teaching experience, but Undefined I suppose going back 10 15 years. So it's it's probably a an explicit teacher job description I would have loved to have had now Given that the world's not shiny all of the time and even in our phenomenal schools There are some difficulties and if I could have a little chip at your rock and try and knock a little chip off your shoulder, I suppose In your role leading teaching and learning of others, we know not everything's rosy So I guess just for listeners who might be in a similar school to you or really struggling I'm sure you have some difficult moments And I suspect you'll have some staff that just aren't bothered with cpd here or there You know, we'll all go through different moods life gets in the way those types of things Could I just get you to unpick maybe some difficult moments? You've had some real challenges Maybe we're not going into too specific details or names, but just in general So, yeah, I mean I wouldn't want any listeners for a moment to think that this is all rosy because I'm quite an upbeat person and I'm quite Like about they're all all in or not at all So that that's just my kind of my personality. I suppose it's a really challenging job And I think the most difficult thing about teaching and learning is often that People who lead teaching and learning myself included are often the really enthusiastic creative ideas people who have a vision But they're not necessarily the detail process seeing things through people because often those people aren't the same people So for me the biggest challenge in my day-to-day role is making sure that I Keep hold of the thing that I need to achieve Rather than going new project new project new project new project shiny ball shiny ball shiny ball Here's another thing I can get interested in and will distract me And I think that what's really important is that you're able at points, you know I was leading on a whole school initiative a couple of years ago And it was a really it was massively challenging when I got to a point where I was like, you know What I've wrong with this and all my energy cannot propel this any further Because what I haven't done is think about the processes and the the the kind of the systems that need to be in place to make this work Starting being able to reflect on the things that you think well It should work because I did all the research and I did all the cpd So why isn't it working now and actually being able to go? Do you know what I need to go and see a colleague who really has an eye for detail and figure out why this isn't working I'm quite lucky in my current place. I have a couple of colleagues who are absolutely fantastic at that kind of granular Detail Could be thought about this have you thought about this have you thought about this and they know what I'm like And I know what they're like and so I really look for their oversight and they regularly come to me and say have you thought about this? Because I don't think you have and I think that that's it's really really important to recognise when you're leading teaching and learning that really teaching learning is everybody's job Sounds cheesy, but it really is so it's true. You need people around you. Don't you like exactly all those people Need to have a piece of that pie and really your job isn't to own it and to be possessive about it It's about being part of a really functional team Yeah Great. I get it. It's nice to hear someone articulate it for me Now we're recording this during covid at the back end of what's been probably the oddest well last year included But probably this full year of going through the pandemic the oddest year on history Not workload and I suppose it is for most people leading teaching learning also trying to make that job easier for teachers If we could try and take out a covid Aspect to the issue. What what is the current workload issue in a phenomenal school? Is it still marking? Is it something different? To be honest, I think I think workload It becomes a problem When you stop thinking about it. So I would say that at the moment So obviously things like teacher assessed grades and all the covid specific things we've had to do And we've had to respond and react to things as they've come up What I would say is that work really sensible workload balance in a school is achieved when every decision you make considers workload in a meaningful way and you're balancing Whether this will have impact on students, which is commensurate with the amount of additional workload for teachers So if it's going to have this much impact for students, but it's going to have this much impact on workload It's not worth doing because you will inevitably have a negative impact on students because the teachers are stressed So I think that it's very very easy to go. We've got a workload charter. We've done that. That's great Our workload is really good now. Let's just crack on with the real business And then you lose track of the fact that all of a sudden the workload stuff is creeping up again because it never stops And so that's what I mean. I'll return to that thing about service-based leadership Constantly reviewing what we're doing. What are we asking the staff to do? Is this okay? You know, I had a had a really um Heartfelt conversation with my line manager who's the vice principal for teaching and learning who is absolutely brilliant And she's devastated that we've had to scrap loads of cpd plans this year because she's made the right decision That you know what right now what staff need is time to do all this ridiculous paperwork and moderation for year 11 upgrades and as much as we value cpd and we value all of that stuff Do you know what it's going to have to wait until September because we can't do that meaningfully and look after our staff at the same time and so really like It's about an ongoing commitment to we're going to ask this question of ourselves all the time And we're going to ask the question every time we decide to implement a new policy Is it worth the workload? Is the impact worth the workload? And you know what sometimes we will introduce something that's really high workload because the impact is massive And that's it's got but but then you've got to tell it to the staff and you've got to make sure everyone's on board And you know as an example we're literally about to introduce a bookletized curriculum So we've been we've been trialling it this year. It's been really successful staff are being Trained it's all kind of and we're doing it in sensible stages and there are lots everyone knows what the roadmap is There are lots of dates and deadlines and people understand doing it reasonably But the workload is considerable But we believe that in the long term it's going to have a positive impact on workload and on students and therefore it's worth it So it's about saying this is rock hard But we're going to do it anyway because we think it's the right thing And we're going to sell it to staff properly and they're going to have ownership and therefore it's it's okay So it's not that you never do something because people are going to get stressed about it It's that you make the right choices about the right things. Sure I'm really inspired by what you say and you talk very fast, which is good because it's No, well, I'm scottish. Should we talk even faster? But I'm inspired by that with all the energy and as you're talking away I'm thinking right. How do you learn to bite your lip? You know, and there's yeah in those leadership meetings. How good are you at keeping your mouth shut? It's a constant battle. I'm not going to lie What's interesting is that over the course of my career, I've sort of developed an understanding about this. So If I can be really serious for a moment, I think that one of the things that is very challenging So I'm an ethnic minority woman. So I'm mixed race. I'm quarter Caribbean. You can't really tell that I'm Mixed race. I look a bit Italian. Maybe I don't know Greek something like that quite dark coloring and curly hair, but the my you know, I was raised by a Caribbean woman and her Caribbean sisters and my kind of My family on that side and culturally I'm very loud. I gesticulate all the time I kind of talk over people because that's what I've been raised to do That's how we communicate and that's not about being rude or ignorant That's a cultural difference with how people communicate in different kind of in different kind of ethnic groups essentially And that's totally fine And totally civilized in that context and the issue is that not everybody thinks like that And that for a long time in my career, I felt very much like I've had to sort of shrink that part of myself and by my life and sit down and just be quiet and as much as That kind of that's been an instructive experience for me because I think it's put me in situations in previous schools where I felt very much that I've been Not bringing my full self to the table That's a problem for the organization because I'm great But a problem for me because I'm not happy and I don't feel that I'm being listened to and I have to learn That my colleagues are fantastic and I need to sit and listen and listen to hear them not listen to reply Because that's what I do So I work really hard at Making sure I listen to my colleagues and I give everyone space and I'm quiet And then do you know what's really important is that I also you know for myself is that I'm listening so that I can actually make informed Comments because sometimes I just go I think they saw I've already worked well. So it's genuinely been a bit of a like It sounds like a real journey in terms of your leadership development as well as your own identity And fitting in with leadership team. I guess, you know, a lot of personalities around the table as well Yeah, and and that's and I'm starting the thing I'm really starting to understand certainly at this school Is that I have some very talented senior colleagues who are genuinely phenomenal at their jobs And I'm watching them and I'm learning a lot from these people who all are completely themselves They're really proud of who they are and where they're from and their identity and they all have a very very Clear sense of self And I feel as though I can be fully myself with these people and they respect me and they see what I bring to the table Good. Well, that's good. Well, you know, you're in a happy school then if that if that's the case Yeah, it's good Right, I want to switch to your books. So, you know, I'm having a nose for your website and you've got very english specific books and I don't know if we can talk about your new book. That's a secret I suppose But I'll let you make that call But we want to talk about the metacognition book the one that you're writing with with another publisher. Oh, yeah So can you give listeners a general overview in terms of what you've published so far reasons why And and what you're getting out of that process Yeah, so, um, I wrote a book in 2018 called how to teach english literature overcoming cultural poverty and it's essentially A bit of a manual for english teachers on how to teach english literature in a really Challenging robust way. I think the key thing for me with that book was that I mean if you're an english teacher, you kind of be aware often we um Often we make the mistake of dumbing things down. I think with literature I say it so I would add Yeah, I'm shocked I have to make things like um teaching the most challenging stuff early on in key safe three In teaching literary theory as early as possible In making sure that we are having we have a really really kind of high challenge knowledge rich curriculum because students have to write from a place of knowledge They can't write an Fellow if they have had like a discovery based curriculum and they've just read the play and thought talked about that feeling They need to understand context. They need to understand Form they need to understand genre. They need to understand all that stuff. So I'm a big advocate of um Yeah, high challenge being really really academic and unapologetic about it So that book is uh for english teachers and there is a book from 2019 called teach like a writer Which essentially addresses one of the biggest challenges for english teachers because basically The majority of english teachers are literature specialists not language specialists and most english teachers are not writers Writing as an art form. So it would You know, it's the equivalent of expecting um, you know an art teacher to be teaching All of the theory around art history In its entirety from year seven as well as the skills of creating art because that's what we do, you know, um and So that book basically has lots of contributions from professional writers from a range of different disciplines Um in kind of political speeches and short stories in poetry and drama and all that kind of thing And basically they've all written a bit of a This is a bit of an essay about their process and how they write and what what their form is all about And then I've kind of backed it up with lots of kind of practical teacher things about what people can do in the classroom um Yeah, and then the most recent i have a mcbeth revision guide which speaks for itself and then there's a Most recent one is on metacognition. Um, yes metacognition handbook. It came out a couple of weeks ago and that is um All about metacognition So let's let's talk about that one because um, this is going to be the focus. Um Now I know when I've talked to teach about metacognition or even retrieval practice to go What's that without really realizing that they already know it? It's just maybe not been Unpicked or defined. So what is metacognition? Yeah, you're completely right. It's it's a lot of it Is something that teachers already do naturally because we in we have a real intrinsic knowledge that that is how learning happens Anyway, so essentially metacognition is about Understanding how you learn and using that knowledge to learn better Um, and then using that knowledge to kind of sustain that learning into the future so in order to um teach metacognitively you have to have a good foundational understanding of cognition how we um How the brain kind of embeds information in long term how skills develop over time how we build How we strengthen kind of those neural connections and all those kinds of things that's really important You need to have that as a foundation. Um, but once you have that Metacognition really is about making sure that you frame your teaching with um metacognitive framework Which essentially is a series of questions for me and the book kind of talks about those Um, but it's about students understanding before they start a piece of work that they have to sort of Activate prior knowledge and understand sort of What is this task? Have I done this task before? What's it have to do? How is this similar or different to something I've done in the past? Um, what would be the you know when I've done it before what was successful? Should I do that again? Should I avoid that? Did I learn something kind of coming up with a plan for how they're going to tackle something? And then while they're doing that work, they're able to self-regulate. So they're they're checking themselves They're thinking um, am I going along the right path or have I gone off on a tangent? Is this what I'm supposed to be doing? So they're consciously aware of what they're doing and making sure they regulate as they go And then afterwards they're thinking about what they've done, how successful they've been, how they felt about it That's really important an element of metacognition, which is often sort of overlooked I think in the classroom because it's hard is thinking about motivation So students self-efficacy their belief that they can achieve something is a really really important factor in their willingness To do something and so, you know, it's all well and good having a school behavior policy Which is flawless and students who will just do what you've asked But whether or not they really really believe that they can achieve something genuinely has an impact on how well they perform And so um, there's a difference in compliance and engagement, you know, of course Metacognitive learners are ones who are able to make the absolute best use of their brain and its power I think it's the best way to put it So fascinating. Can you unpick some of the sources of inspiration, some research articles for people? I mean obviously people want to buy the book, but where did you draw your experience from? Obviously the classroom Most of this is it was certainly propelled by my interest in metacognition. I'm just I'm really fascinated by cognition Really really interested by kind of the learning process and and how Um How cognition can be applied in the classroom to kind of essentially have greater gains if students understand all that stuff and how that works It genuinely has an impact on them as learners, but um, I've been fascinated by metacognition for years Um, I did a project on metacognition when I was an ast and have kind of been trialling Things for about eight or nine years. I would say in the classroom But in order to prepare for this book in kind of I probably spent a couple of years Reading lots and lots of things. Um, obviously a really really good place to start for anyone Will be the eaf guidance report on metacognition self-regulated learning. Um, I really love the work of tova michalski Um, which is all referenced in the book. Um, there's a chapter which goes through all the research and some little So people can have a reading a place to start but tova michalski Came up with a really fantastic questions framework. Um, he calls it connect comprehend Oh strategize reflect. Um, which is excellent. Um, okay. We'll have a look and add a link to that Um, and then you know people like win. Um, there are lots of really, um Just really really interesting theorists in the area. Um, and there's just tons and tons of really interesting research It's come out in the last sort of 10 years Because a lot for a long time believed that metacognition was only really possible in older age groups But tons of research particularly from other states in early years and things like that And the metacognitive traits and self-regulation you can see it in kind of early You can see that in reception age children. I see that in my own son You know any time when a child is is looking at something that they're having to do and Recognizing while they're doing it that there's perhaps a better way of doing it I'm changing that behavior. That's self-regulation. Yeah, so I bet you're going through a very interesting incarnation, I suppose because you're a new parent relatively You're a secondary experienced you're writing books So I suspect you're in demand to share your wisdom With others outside of your school teach meets etc and lots of online conferences and having your own young children Switching on that metacognition for a primary lens. Yeah, I guess you I guess you got a lot of light bulbs pinging away in your head So I have I had to try and refine this to a question How are you managing navigating metacognition in a primary world in a secondary classroom? You know, so as a primary parent How do you see this Evolving as a as a teacher stroke parent in your understanding how we learn I think that's a good enough question to begin with and then I'll ask you another one about cpd So let's start with that one First of all, I'm in a really privileged position actually because when I was ahead of English It was in an all through school and so I'm seeing the whole progress from okay, good Pre-reception so we used to get them in at three years old all the way through to upper sixth And that and it was absolute privilege to see that that journey all the way through and I think that there's a In that sense, I think the the key thing I took from that was that learning is learning and the brain is the brain And yes, there are differences cognitively between the kind of the stages of learning that the brain is at So the way the brain takes on information and the way the brain Focuses on different things at different ages does change Um, and that's quite a predictable change. Actually, it's really interesting Interesting set of reading you could do on that But it's yeah, I had a for the book I've got a My pro prologue prologue. It's not a prologue I've just been teaching Romeo and Juliet The bit before the forward By peps mccray who's amazing. Yeah, no peps Was written by a neurosurgeon called louise sarkilla who is absolutely I was lucky enough to go to uni with her. She's an absolute legend But she's doing research into pediatric tumors for the The cancer research uk and she works at gray orman street on the weekend right doing neurosurgery on children She's a pediatrics and she's absolutely amazing, but she wrote me a forward which essentially talks about how There is a lot that we know about the brain and about how the brain is kind of receptive to learning different things at different times And so I think there's a certainly an element of primary specialism that is absolutely critical You know, I think a lot of secondary school teachers make the mistake of thinking that they could do primary because it's easy And it's really not um rockhard. There is there is a huge amount of specialism. However um in terms of kind of I I do think that there are a lot of similarities because again, you know Teaching is teaching and the brain still learns things in the same way. Um, and I think that I think that there's a lot we can learn from primary in terms of yeah No, I'm a big I'm a big fan of all through schools. There's lots of Good evidence. I can't remember the count exactly, but there's probably a good 170 schools Across england that are all through and you know, no surprise that they don't have a year six year seven transition slump Teachers are blended between classrooms kids get to experience the kind of big classroom spaces and specialist teachers earlier on um, I guess given what you know about metacognition And given curriculum reform. It's a big question. Do you think our schools are? In terms of a timetable, you know, 60 minute lessons, you know, given all the pressures that we have to do curriculum and kids moving around schools. Do you think 60 minute lessons support metacognitive learning? Yeah, um, if I'm honest, I have taught in a school that had 100 minute lessons before and it was dreadful. Um, I don't think it's sensible at all. I think that I don't so I think the reason for that is that of course I would like to have my students for four hours Right in a beautiful, lovely long sequence of learning English and never stopping. However, um, that's not helpful for them I don't think and I think there's only so much that they can take in and they need to process things over time I think they're really really useful to have smaller chunks because those smaller chunks allow for lots and lots of meaningful retrieval and those kinds of things They're they are literally Interleaving and interleaving their retrieval by going to different lessons every day But I also think that if you're planning lessons in hour long sequences and you're doing a bad job It's and it's probably worse for your workload. Don't plan like that. I plan a sequence of lessons Which I deliver over a number of periods which are truncated, you know, and I think that that's probably a way to think about it If you're planning individual lessons, I said it before you don't learn something in an hour You don't learn something in a lesson. You learn something over a complex sequence of cognitive events Which the teacher facilitates, you know, so don't yeah, I won't worry about it. I don't actually care how how long your lessons are Yeah, it's that it's that context of chunking isn't it and then dividing that into Your stage and age and subject, etc Now Jenny, we are we've broken our kind of barrier for my succinct podcast because we're having such a good time talking about teaching and learning So I'm going to move the conversation forward into my kind of my kind of retrieval quiz type uh method in terms of all our conversations So I'll start easy and you can't pause or hesitate. I don't think you'll have a problem But let let me see if I let me see if I can catch it off guard So, uh, give me a project that's on your desk at school. What are you working on? reading Okay, lots of reading cross-curricular reading. Okay. The next question was give me one book that you are reading Uh, the girl of Incan stars I'm reading it for year seven transition Okay, why funky pedagogy? Uh, because I still do but at the time I came up with a Twitter handle. I was singing in a funk band All right, great And obviously on the bassoon Uh, I mean I play the bassoon like orchestrally. I say I picked up my bassoon about two years Yeah, I I sing Give me one thing Last academic week that you were firefighting Oh Oh the sample year 11 sample But it was great. But and it's done but this is a dreadful story We had a power cut, right? So aqa thank you know gave us 48 hours. Yeah You know 27 or something then you had a power cut And then we had a power cut so we couldn't we had to scan in all of these english language folders that are like 40 pages each We had to scan them into the photocopier and we wouldn't let anyone else do it because we needed like me and the vice principal We're like scanning all these things in and then the power cut happened. It was an absolute loss We stick to like almost seven o'clock Oh no, what a story Like scanning all the things but it was great. It was fine. It was all fine Lots of coffee. Um, if I came to Wakefield I have been there once recently since my move up north But where would we go? Where would we take me? Where would we go for chips and gravy? So actually I live in Leeds and all right. Okay. My apologies It needs to be definitely needs to be rectified. However, the Hethworth gallery's in Wakefield and it's absolutely amazing Um chips in Gravefield no idea, but you could definitely go to canters on Choppeltown road in Leeds Okay, let's shout out and piece of advice for a teacher wanting to engage with research Start small don't think you have to read all the books at once like literally just start with something really simple I would actually go to the EF website choose one report Read the guidance report and then follow some of their recommended reading because there is a lot out there and a lot of There is there is um now shimmy you're doing your dream job. But what was that wacky career you never had? Oh Oh, I don't know wacky career. I never had so I'm married to a professional musician So like he kind of has a wacky career and does all the performances and stuff Okay, not no deep-sea diver in you or anything like that. No, I'm not that Okay, um, what's your kind of biggest career achievement you're most proud of today? Do you know what this is a funny one? I negotiated my job and job description and salary while breastfeeding Like amazing with a baby. And do you know what? Like that's for me. That's massive. And I think huge. That's great Talk about for women in general. Yeah. No, I've been there in in a situation like that and it's uh, it's fabulous that our Organizations can embrace that type of stuff not everywhere, but it's good to hear. Um Who would you recommend I interview next and why now we know david recommended you? Okay, so who would who would yours be? Interview highly hues Highly hues. Yes. I've just connected with highly actually so we'll get in touch. Okay, great. And why? She's just so clever. She's had such an interesting career so far Like she was a fleet street journalist And and kind of for a serious like for the sun or something like she she's had such an interesting career But she's also just fascinating. She's doing a phd and something really cool. She's you know What out millions of books and is just high energy and brilliant and she is okay I'll get in touch another fantastic job. So I would highly recommend her. She's hilarious as well Yeah, right. I will get in touch with hailey. Okay. What is uh, what will be your next blog post title? Oh god, no idea. Well, I'm about to post a couple of Amplified amplified blogs. So I have guest bloggers who are like women who don't have a platform yet. So A couple of those to come on. Okay. Nice. What advice would you give your 16 year old self? Keep on trucking. You're doing great and don't straighten your hair full Fantastic, um Here's a big question. What would you hope to be your legacy? Oh, I just hope my kids are like nice You know, I want my boys to go out there and be like a positive force on the world and to not be I'm not gonna swear. Yeah, I know what you mean. You know, I mean not be one of those. Um, that yeah, okay Yeah Do you saw gravy? What do you prefer? gravy And gravy The northern time. Okay, great. Um Jenny where can listeners find out more about you online blogs links that type of stuff website funky pedagogy.com We'll give you everything you need to know. There's like events calendar and resources and blog and all that stuff on there And twitter at funky pedagogy. Of course So Jenny, it's been uh, it's been a blast. Actually, I've really enjoyed it. It's been high energy I really enjoyed the conversation about teaching and learning. Thank you for your time Thank you for all the amazing work that you do in the teacher community online sharing all your wisdom and it's wonderful to hear Just such good energy that there are some brilliant schools out there doing some incredible things and we can In difficult circumstances get it right and support our teachers. So thank you. Thank you so much for having me