 Welcome to Pookie Ponders, the podcast where I explore big questions with brilliant people. I'm Pookie Nightsmith and I'm your host. Today's question is how could we better support young people leaving care and I'm in conversation with Kira Walsh, a recent care leaver in Jersey, who will become the director of children's services in Jersey one day. You'll gather from the interview that Kira has a special place in my heart. She or I would love to hear from anyone listening in who might be able to support or guide her in her dream of studying social work in the UK. I'm Kira, I'm 18, I'm care experienced and I live in Jersey. And you are my unofficial niece. So Kira and I met for context. Kira and I met, I guess it was about a year ago now, wasn't it? Yeah, just over. Yeah, I was over in Jersey and you were doing brilliant work kind of advocating for young people and talking about mental health and that kind of thing and you kind of blew me away and I know you've not always had the kind of easiest time have you. So I try and look out for you a bit and I'm hoping that some people in my network will help you with your mission. We can talk about your mission. So tell us like what's going on for you at the moment then, what's inspired this conversation for us? So obviously I've just left care. I am 18 and I want to go into social work within child protection. So obviously it's an area I want to be in, you know, making improving. And what's kind of, because there's like a real motivation for you about that, about wanting other kids to have a different experience maybe than some of the things that have happened with you, is that fair? Yeah, I think so. So what would you, you know, if you could go back in time or you can go into the future and you can imagine like a future kind of Kira type, what kind of social worker would you want to be to them? I think I'd want to be consistent. Okay. Because obviously I can't talk for everyone across the UK, but because we are quite a small island, there's big, large, quick turnover. So I had probably about 12 social workers in two years. No. Yeah. Yeah. But the problem is you get someone and they start doing work and then obviously the next person comes along has to start again. So when there's a lack of consistency, there's a lot of breaks. Yeah. And when there's a lot of breaks, things don't work as they should do. Like what? So you could be say you've got an assessment going on. So for me, I went into care. I had a three months assessment. But if you get, and I had a few because my case got closed a few times, but say you have your case closed and reopened. Yeah. You're starting from the beginning. It doesn't get picked up where you've left off. Why not? I'm trying to write this out myself. I don't know. So you have to start all over again with your story and explain to the next question. Yeah. You're constantly telling your story. Do you get sick of telling your story? I think so. I think especially when you're in care and not just involved with children's service. Because when you're in care, you meet like 10 million people, don't you? So you're meeting someone new and they don't come to you and know what they're talking about. They come to you and expect you to explain it all. But then you wonder where you're expected to start. Because you don't know what they know or because you're not sort of relevant? Or you don't know what they know. Or they come to you and they've said they've read your file, but you don't know what your file says. So you don't know what's in there? No. No. Wow. You don't have to pick a part in there already, isn't there? So, okay. So you want consistency. You want to know what people know about you. And when you do meet a new social worker, have you had, I mean, you've experienced a lot of them clearly, are there any that stood out for you as being either particularly brilliant or Yeah, so that was one that was really, really good. Yeah. But she stayed for four weeks and then she moved back to England. Oh, what was good about her? Let's think about those lovely four weeks. She, a lot of the time, I feel like when you're going into care or prior to your move into care, your common misconception is you're going into care because you're the bad one and you've done something wrong. However, she wasn't of that opinion. And when a social worker is, it's quite obvious. Like as a young person, we're not, we're not thick. As being young, isn't to say that we're delusional or we can't see because we do, obviously. So I think that, that was a big difference. I think it's more attitudes that is practical work. Okay. So someone who doesn't make assumptions about you because of your age and that kind of thing. And do you think that that's like commonly felt? Is this just your opinion or the, you know, other young people feel the same? Obviously, naturally, I'm quite good friends quite a few care leavers. And I think all of us think it. Okay. So what, you know, just thinking specifically, so we were particularly thinking about the kind of the care-leaving moment in our kind of, we can cover all sorts of stuff today, but what, what was good and what was less good about that, leaving care? So I think it's different for everyone. Yeah. I think it's very, very individual. But for me, I was told that I was leaving care in a meeting of about 15 people. And my social worker looked to me and she said, you're leaving. You've got a week to me if you choose one. So I think it needs to be sensitive. And I don't think, I don't think it always is. I think it needs to involve a young person. And I don't think it always does. And I feel like this like age 18, like that's, that's really a cut off, isn't it? And I don't think, I don't think it should be. I don't think it works for everyone. You wouldn't, you've got two kids, pookie, two little girls. And on their 18th birthday, you wouldn't go knock on their door and tell them they've got a week to move out. No. So, so I'm not sure why it's common. I find the 18, yeah, the 18 cut offs are really weird one for me, actually. Because you know, my children, one of them is, is adopted. Well, she actually, she's not, she lives with us under a special guardianship order. And legally, the day she turns 18, I no longer have any responsibility for her, which is, I mean, it will play out. But like legally, that's just nuts. Yeah. Yeah. And it's, I suppose it's the worry that comes with it as well. Like you, you know that you're, you've got, you're leaving, but you don't know where you're going. So for me, I left care and then I went on to spend time at a women's refuge and a shelter. Wow. But I just left care. And I think it, I don't, I don't really understand because it's like when you leave care, you really do leave care. Like that's it now. Yeah. What? So just, just backpedaling slightly then. So did it, was it, was it like your 18th birthday? Or was it kind of around then? Like, how was it decided? No, so for me, it was when I was 17. Why? Because I had a social worker that did a parenting assessment. But when she did this parenting assessment, she didn't speak to me once. So that was a really big lack of communication. There was no relationship there. This is probably vital if you're a social worker of someone in care. But again, like it's a bad attitude. And she sat me in a meeting and said that she done this parenting assessment and she decided I was moving. And that was sort of that. So what's the parent assessment? Is that, that's an assessment of? Of parenting. No, but of who's parenting? My parents. Right. But you're not talking this. No. How could they tell? I mean, I have so many questions, Kira. Okay. Yeah. So anyways, I did too. Right. So she did this parenting assessment. Right. Without talking to you. Okay. Without talking to me. Okay. And then she decided from that parenting assessment she did when she had a real lack of communication with me that I was going to go home. Oh, yeah. Yeah. But when that, when that didn't work, I ended up at a shelter and she said, if you're so worried about her, put her back at the shelter to all the professionals around me. But that happened for nine months. And so obviously it was just a cut off. There was no, there was no giving it. It really was just a cut off. But from then I left care and that was that. Wow. So what happens, what happens now then? So you're living in our hostel at the moment? Yeah. Yeah. And you, I know, because we've been talking about it. I suppose it's up to you, though, kind of what you want to, I know a little bit about your situation and your plans and your hopes and stuff. But yeah, I mean, are you happy to talk about that a little bit? What's next for you and where? So next to me is I want to move out. So my hostel is run by Children's Service, which is quite ironic considering that they're the reason I'm in a place like this. So I want to move out, but the whole system with moving out when you are a caregiver is, it's more complex than it does need to be. I think it's a hell of a lot more difficult than needs to be. Especially considering I only intend to stay in Jersey for another year. I want to go to uni off island. Because we've got a social work degree here. Don't get me wrong, but it's only been in place for a year and only has 12 places on it. And considering my situation, I wouldn't want to do very small island, not a local place. I'm not sure I want to be doing a social work placement here. No, no. And although I want you over in UK, so we can hang out, which would be? Yeah, exactly. Ideal. So okay, so you're going to be here for a year. So you're going to say, because you're staying because you're doing a course for the next year, right? Yeah, so I'm doing a one year psychology course. Yeah. So where are you going to live for that year? I don't know. I intend on being out of here in the next month. But with the way it all works, like you, you get told it's going to happen, but you never really know. Okay. So I hope to be out of here in the next month. I don't really know. I've not really got a clue. But it's been like that after a long time, you know, like the system doesn't work very well and the system's not very fair. So it's about getting what you want. But who really knows? I can tell you I'm going to be living for the next year. Where would you like to be living? I want to be living independently in a flat. That's the goal. But who really knows? But you're in the, it's essentially it's a hostel or a children's home that you're in at the moment. Honestly, I think it's a bit of both. The people that have come from a children's home have said it's exactly the same, but I wouldn't know because obviously I didn't come from a home. They call it supported accommodation. I'm not sure if I'd be that generous with the term. Yeah, I don't really know. I think it's a mix of it all. They call it a supported accommodation. I'm not sure that's the term I'd use. Okay. It's staffed anyway. Okay. Okay. Is there anything that's good about it? What would be, you know, any little? I'd say no, but that's just because I'm really, really independent from my age. I think if someone had been in the situation I was in where they were told so suddenly they were leaving care and they needed somewhere and they needed somewhere quickly and they really did need to be more supported and they were less independent, somewhere like this would suit them quite well. I know there is people here that it does suit quite well because it is quite hands-on in terms of what they call support. And I know that if you've come from a children's service home in Jersey to where I am, the staff are consistent because they just move around the homes. So there is that bit of consistency, but obviously that only comes if you've come from a children's service home. And I think places like this are quite hit or miss. Absolutely. Yeah. And I think that's the, that's a bit of a challenge there, isn't it? And as you say, there's, you're 18, but you are a very independent 18 and you've got a lot of ideas about what you want and how you want to live, but some 18 year olds are maybe not. No, no. I always, when I talk to people that my age, I expect them to know, because I know exactly what I want to do. I've got my whole plan set out. I've got a whole time scale. I know what I want to be doing. And so I talk to people that my age, I expect them to have the same, but a lot of them really don't. In fact, a lot of them that are in like early 20s don't either. So I don't think it actually is common. Obviously in our 30s still haven't figured it out yet. So yeah, you've got a really, see, and I love that about you that you're so driven. Has that been your plan for a long time, like you're going to go into social work and you're going to kind of make it different for kids like yourself? I thought I've had a plan for a really long time. It's not always been social work. Okay. I started off thinking I want to do teaching. I wanted to teach English, really liked it at school, really did well. And then I thought, no, I want to do law. I want to do family law. And then now I'm pretty set on social work. I want to be director of children's service. In Jersey or elsewhere? Yeah, in Jersey. So you want to come out? People say, yeah, like I tell people about my goals all the time and some people say you're never happy with what you've got. I think it's just having ambition and other people should have more of it too. Yeah, I think it's a brilliant thing to aim for. And I don't know what exactly the route would be to being director of children's services, but I certainly think the first step in the direction is to want to have your goals. And I know I do a lot of work around coaching people and that kind of thing. And I think having a really clear aim means that you can begin to take steps towards it. Exactly. I always thought like, if you don't have a name, then you've not really got to do what you're doing. Because if you've not got a name, then what you're actually working towards? Nothing because you don't know what your end goal is. So you want to be director of children's services and you're going to do this via doing a year of psychology in Jersey and then you want to go and do your social work degree? Yeah. So tell me, what have you been researching this, haven't you, about where you might go to do your social work degree, what it will be like? What do you imagine like what will going away to uni be like for you as a caregiver? Will it be different than for the other students on your course? I think the lead up to going away to uni is because I feel like in Jersey, obviously it's so small and it's a bit different going from Jersey to uni in England than it is from living in England and going to uni in a different place of England. Yeah. So for me, I've obviously got my family in Jersey. I've got siblings. The youngest is my little sister. She's five. And so I knew from the get go, I want to be in the south. Like this was my first port called I've got to rule out places. So I knew I wanted to be in the south. And then it was about where I could get to and from quickly and easily. And then I started looking at the courses because I thought there's no point looking at course somewhere I don't want to be and then thinking that I like the course and then I've got a real big dilemma. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. You're very practical actually, aren't you? Yeah. So when you came to, so we kind of, we've nailed it down to places that are near airports, presumably, that's a key driver. And what were you looking for then once you began to be able to look at the courses? What kind of thing? So I looked a lot at, I looked at a lot of them, like a lot. And at first I was looking at the theory side a bit, but a lot of you need, that's essentially the same. You're getting the same degree. It's all social work. However, in a lot of them, the placement really varies. Okay. So my top two choices, I think anyway, like virtual open days are really quite difficult. But after them, I think that my top two are Brighton and Bournemouth. Okay. And in both. Great universities, I'll have to say, I've worked with both of them. So tell me why they're your top choices. A lot of the placements are with children. And obviously, I want to be a children's social worker. But at a lot of universities and a lot of social work degrees, the placements you're looking at with adults, elderly people, this sort of thing. But as much as I do it and I get through it because I do want to be a social worker, I couldn't imagine myself doing placements like that for three years. Yeah. So like being straight up about it. Yeah. I think that's it. I think if you've got a name and it's specifically to work with children, then working with children seems an, you know, an appropriate way in. So are these specific children's social work degrees then you'd be doing? Or is it just that you can choose them? No, I haven't seen any that are just children's. What I saw was Southampton do a course, but in the 30s, you can specialise in children or adults. That's my third choice. But I haven't seen any that are specific. Okay. Okay. I don't know much about the routine, but I will know people who know. So we'll pick this up. I did think it was a bit annoying at first because, you know, if you're going to do something like nursing, you could just specialise in your whole degree. But you can't do that in social work. That's really frustrating. I'm going to have to let my dog in. Bear with me one moment. Otherwise he's going to pour the door through the whole thing. Come on. Here I want to say hi anyway. Here I love you, buddy. Oops. Sorry. No, you can't grumble because otherwise I'll have to stop. Okay. Sorry, let me get my train of thought back again. So, okay. So we think we want to go to Southampton or Brighton. Now, in terms of like being a caregiver going to university, how does that work? Like, I mean, so, like, why does your stuff, like, do you not have stuff? Like, where does that go? Yeah. So this is actually, I'm dealing with all of this at the moment because it is, I can't even lie. It's hugely complex. It really is. More so than it needs to be. And I think I don't think that's anyone's doing. I don't think it's intentional. I think it's because it's because there's a real big lack of understanding. And because people are paid to deal with this problem and it's not their immediate issue. There's quite often a lack of care. However, for us young people, they're intended to go into university or finance, it's quite a big problem. Yeah. So from what I can gather at the moment, it's say I was in a flat for a year in Jersey. I then lose my flat because I'd be in England. Okay. You don't need it anymore. Yeah. Well, that's what people say. But then you, if your daughter's went to university away from your house, you wouldn't just get into their bedroom, do you know what I mean? Like, you wouldn't chuck her stuff out. But that's essentially what happens. I don't really know what the expectation is because obviously as a student finances, funding, like tuition fees, accommodation, whatever. But what then happens when you go home or where your things go or the fact that you'll then finish your degree, move back and be homeless? I don't think it's an issue that's been dealt with before. I think it's quite new. So, so you've not got anyone else you can speak to who's kind of trodden this path and figured this out? No, no. So I think I'd be wrong. I've got friends that don't do Greece and I care about this, but they're doing that degree in Jersey. Right. Yeah. And is that something, so have you been encouraged to stay in Jersey and do your degree there because it'd be easier or? No, everyone has encouraged my goal of moving away. And I do want to move away. I was born in Jersey. I was brought up in Jersey. And so realistically, I'm always going to live in Jersey. I don't do change. So I know that the only time I move away is going to be to university and it's going to be to move back. However, what happened in the process? I don't know. What would help do you think? Like you're putting on a really brave face about it, but this is quite, I mean, it's a big problem. Yeah. Yeah. What do you think would help? I think it should have been thought about. Like I really do. And I'm not quite, I feel like when you're caring about stereotypically, you're, you're not very academic. You don't intend on going to uni. You've probably got no GCSEs and you're probably addicted to drugs. Like if someone told you they were caring about that's what that's like the automatic thing people think. Like you're like deemed to be unsuccessful. And so that, yeah, I do. I do. Yeah. I think there's a standard and it's not very high. And what, and you think people expect you to kind of live down to that standard? So this question of, yeah, happens if you go away to universities are relevant. Yeah. And don't get me, don't get me wrong. There's a few, very rare, but there's a few that are interested in goals. However, what, what's anyone meant to do if it's not been set out anywhere? Do I mean, like we've got a whole Care Leavers offer here and it came out in February and it's about funding you can get for things and accommodation and education and whatever you name it is probably in the offer as what we can, what we're entitled to as Care Leavers. However, it's quite complex and says nothing in that about what happens to your things or where you live or where you're put up or whatever when you go away to university if you go away. So, okay. So, but there's, so there's something good. So there's progress because this is an event which is positive. Yeah. But it just, it's not tackling this particular issue you're facing because you're the first person that you're aware of. I think, I think it'll become more and more common. Yeah. I do, but as of right now, I don't think they talked about it very much. Do you think you've got a responsibility to kind of future young people like yourself who might want to do this to figure out how to make it work? I think that whatever happens to me in the next year and when I move away to uni and when I come back will certainly shape what happens to people that then do it after me. And what do you think are the things that could go wrong or could go right here? So I think what could go right is I don't know because I think that the things that could, I think that the answer I get to a lot of the things that I'm going to need in the next year could be there's no resources. Right. For example, what practically I need is to know that someone somewhere is going to be paying my rent while I'm away because as a university student, you're probably going to find just about zero that are able to find like 800 pounds a month for rent. But apart from that, I don't think there is anything anyone can do because obviously that's the biggest issue here because that would be what keeps people in Jersey from the caregivers in Jersey from going away to uni will be the fact that they've got nowhere to live. Yeah. So housing is a really, really important part of this. And is there anything there about kind of, you know, as a caregiver, do you still have a social worker? Do you have any adult role models? So I don't know if it's like this in England. However, here you have a social worker, but then you have like a PA, which is a personal advisor. And they essentially do the role of what a social worker would do. But when you left care, so you can have a PA from when you're 14. And they work alongside the social worker to 18. And then you just have your PA until you're 25, which is amazing because it means you've got ongoing support until you're 25. This is if they stay for the whole time. But yeah, I think it depends. So because if you don't go on with your PA, then it's not going to work. But they have to talk to you four times a year. So it's like every three months, they shouldn't talk to you more. But again, if there's a lack of relationship, there's a lack of relationship. They're like a mentor or? Yeah, well, like practical things that helping you with housing, education, doctors, opticians, dentists, like things like that. And then they say they offer emotional support, but that's again questionable. Sorry, your ability to like, okay, okay, emotional support is questionable. That's actually kind of a massive deal. I mean, I work with. Yeah, yeah. It is a big thing, like when you're caring, but you're essentially on your own. Yeah. And you've got a lot to deal with. I mean, that's you, you know, you've got more than your typical load of kind of emotional stuff going on there. So emotional support seems quite a big important thing. Yeah, but a lot of the time you're greeted the like the response, I'm not trained. Yeah. And you often think, well, I'm not either, but I'm still going through it. So that there's got to be a middle ground, hasn't there? What would be helpful in terms of emotional support? What would you want your PA to do? You know, sometimes a bit of understanding goes a really long way. Yeah. But I think, I think that's about relaxed. And I don't think all the time it's intentional. I don't, I think if they don't understand, they don't understand. Yeah. And there's not a lot you can do about that unless they want to understand. What would you want them to understand? What understanding is lacking there? I think sometimes it's not quite understood that you don't actually have a support network. That's a normal family house. Yeah. It's like sometimes they think they can leave work at five o'clock and you also just go home. Unfortunately, when you're caring, that's not usually how it works. But I don't know. I don't quite understand it. I really don't. But maybe that's because I am a caregiver. And so I know what I'd want. Yeah. Yeah. That's it. It sounds like, yeah, you have a bit of an idea about what that might look like. Do you think that having been in care and being a caregiver now, I mean, obviously this is a really like massive part of your self-identity and your future and what you want to do in the world and stuff. Would you ever, do you think, just not want this to be part of your story that's quite so front and present? Or do you think it will always be really key? I don't think it will always be. Or I like to think it won't be anyway. Like for me, being, it was the leave and care that was awful. Being in care, I was thriving. I was fostered. So I was with a family. And that wasn't an issue for me. However, I think it's the stigma that comes with it. And I think it's the process of leaving care that for me was the problem. Obviously, it's shaped my goals 100%. I want to be a social icon. Had I not been in care, left care, had like 14 years of involvement, I probably wouldn't want to. I'd have a much different plan. But I'm quite, I don't, I don't think I just want to take it away at all. I'm quite content with my plans. I'm quite happy with them. And I don't, I don't regret it at all. I think, I think it'll become a smaller part when I'm not still in the situation. Yeah. And I think, I think I'll always use it like in practice. But I don't think it will define me in maybe like 10 years time when I've got a fully established career. Tell me about 10 years time when you've got a fully established career then. What do you imagine life is going to be like? Like, where will you be living? What will you be doing? What will your day to day be? What's the dream? So in 10 years time, I'll be 28. And I should graduate when I'm 23. So that obviously gives me five years in between. And I hope that in that time maybe I can like, I want to be in a house. I've decided. I want to be maybe in a relationship, but like, they're questionable and like, who needs anyone anyway, not me. So who knows, I could just be like, fully independent women inside gangster. I want to be, I do want to be working as a social worker, full stop, because I did think about this. And I don't think I just want to come straight out of uni and go straight into a social work role. I think I want to do something in the middle. Okay. Yeah. So we have like your children's rights team in Jersey. And I think I want to work for them when I finish uni for a bit. What do they do? So they're quite good. They are quite good. I don't think everything they do is children's rights related. I don't because they're quite heavily about relationships. Which I really like, really like is honestly, they're like the three people that make quite understand that like, hello, we actually are quite low. So I want to do some work with Dan. Yeah. So you told them? Oh, yes, I've told her. She reads like team manager. She's incredible. I've already told her that I'm going to be her manager one day. So she should take my feedback at the moment. You know, does she take your feedback? Yeah, she does. Most of the time. Anyways, like today I said we should go rock climbing. She said it was an awful idea. But besides that, it's fine. We're going to go rock climbing when I'm next over. We're going to go co-steering, aren't we? Brilliant idea. So I've told her she does usually take my feedback. And that's just something quite risky. And then, yeah, so I want to be in a house and then I want to be on my way to like progression because I'm all about progression. Like, again, some people say it's like not being happy with what you got. I call it having ambition. Yeah. So I, yeah, so I think in 10 years I'll be a social worker. However, I want to be quite a good one, like working my way up because obviously I want to be director of children's service. And that requires progression. So I'm interested about this. When you do a job really well, like say you are the best social worker, which I see no reason why that wouldn't be the case, then when you progress, often you move away from doing the thing you're really good at because you have to start kind of managing it. And you know what I mean? I did think about this because obviously the director of children's service doesn't have a caseload. No. Although, like I really did weigh up the pros and cons of this. So obviously, although you don't have a caseload, you're in a better position to make bigger change. Okay. Do you know what I mean? I do. So you think that it would be okay to not be working with kids day to day because you'd be influencing what the people below you were doing with the kids? Yeah. And I don't think there's anything to say that you can't still meet young people. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? Because you've got to get their views from somewhere, haven't you? Do you though? Or do you just decide? Well, I think it depends on the person. I think a lot of the time they just decide. However, I think the director we've got at the moment meets young people. I've met him a few times. He really does listen. I told him too that he needs to listen to my feedback because I'm going to be in the role soon. What did he say about that? It's good to have names. Okay. So, okay. So there's a good director of children's services then at the moment. So you think that you would aspire to do something similarly to how he's doing it right now? Yeah, I would. So tell me what he's doing well. I think he quite likes meeting young people. I think he quite likes getting views. And I think he's quite the problem solver. He's very efficient. But he only does that after listening to people. And all that sober problem and sober well, I think you have got to listen to people, haven't you? I think you do. And how do you go about listening to, you know, a diverse range of voices of young people? How does he go about that kind of engagement work? I think it's, I think it depends. I think it really depends. And what it's about, like sometimes I think there's things that are really quite specific. And other times it's like everything can nothing but at the same time. I don't know. I think it depends on the person, depends on the young person, because again, like we're all, we're all so different. Like there's things I'm doing now that other caregivers won't do until they're maybe like 22 and vice versa. I think it depends on the person and the goals they have and what they want to be doing. And what does the current director of children services think that you need to do in order to achieve your aim of having his job? Presumably once he's finished with it, I guess. Well, not if I decide to want it sooner. He knows I want to go to uni and he knows I want to do social work. And I straight up told him I was coming for his job. I think I think I was probably maybe the first that told him that. Yeah. Yeah. I think it's quite a difficult day because like maybe a lot of young people think they want to do something and change their minds. And so sometimes I think maybe people aren't taking it seriously because they think because I'm young, I'm just going to change my mind. Like when I do talk about housing and I say that I'm going to have nowhere when I come back, I'm often told what's to say you won't stay in the UK. And I know very well, I'm very determined and I'm going to be right back here in Jersey. What does that create? So I think I think often when I tell people, including him, they think I'm just going to change my mind or that I'm joking. I will change my mind in like two minutes. However, I've had this call for a very, very long time. And if it's the last thing I do, I'm going to be director of children's service. And is there any issue with being director of children's service in Jersey because you specifically don't want to do your social work degree in Jersey because you know everyone and everyone knows you and that's quite complicated. And I've done a lot of work with Jersey and similar places and I get that. Why will that be different after you graduate? Because when so obviously if I was doing a placement with children's service in Jersey as a student social worker, we're on different levels because they're fully qualified and I'd be a student. So therefore my opinion would be less valuable and easier to like diminish. However, if I was fully qualified, we'd both be on the same level. You proper thought this through, Kiera, haven't you? So you're basically going to go away for three years, become awesome at your job, then come back like a fully formed butterfly and be like, I'm, yeah, I'm with her. Yeah. Okay. I did think of, I told you I thought about it. No, I don't know. And I know, I know this, I get that. I just, I haven't quite made that bit of the, I haven't quite understood that bit. But now that you explain it, it makes perfect sense. And I don't have any more questions on it. Okay. Okay. So, so one of the things, as you know, that matters to me is you. And I care about what happens to you. And you've had not the easiest time always. And you know, this isn't the place to go into all of that. But what I would like is to know that you're able to work towards those goals that you have. Because what it's worth, I think you will be an awesome director of children services. And so we need to help you make that happen. What are the things in your way at the moment? Like how can I help or how could my network help you? Do you reckon? Honestly, I'm not really sure. Okay. So we need to have a bit of a think about that. We maybe need to think about if there will be people in my network, for example, who are involved at Bournemouth or Brighton, we are two top choices. You might be able to talk to you about the courses there. When do you have to kind of decide and put your applications in? Between September and December-ish. And when will you have to work out what happens about housing and stuff? Or do you just do that at the same time as any other student would? Honestly, I'm hoping I work that part out quite soon. Because if not, I think it will just become more stressful. The problem is I don't even know where I'm going to be in the next month, obviously. So once I've got that sorted, I didn't know that my next questions are what happens when I go to uni. I think the next year will probably be the most stressful, the next four. But once it's done, it's done. Once you get answers, you've got answers, haven't you? It's just about what you do in order to get them. What's the motivation for doing this year in Jersey before you go off to do the social work degree? So obviously, I was just at sixth form. In Jersey, we have only two public 16-plus options. You either go to Highlands where it's a vocational course and you do one subject. It's the equivalent of three A levels, but it's one subject. It's obviously more vocational. Or you go to Hodia. I went to Hodia. Hodia is a school. It is a sixth form. But you can do up to four academic A levels. So in my first year at Hodia, I did psychology, business, photography, and English, but I dropped English. And then in my second year, so I've just done it, I did business again. Finance, which wasn't an A level. It was certificate and photography. However, because I did it this way, it meant that what I have, what I'm getting is the equivalent of one A level and a certificate, which is equivalent of two. And so that was going to be, I couldn't get into uni with that anyway. So I was like, okay, how am I going to solve this problem? And I knew that regardless, it was going to be so hard to me to get on a social work degree at 18 years old. So I wasn't too fast about this because I got like between an A star and a B the whole way across the year. So I wasn't really too fast that I'm having to find something else to do for another year. But I was like, how am I going to, how am I going to build this up while I don't do something that's going to make me hate my life for a whole entire year? And then the thought process was, but I'm going to need something that gets me up enough to one, go to uni and two is, is relevant because obviously I've just done business and finance. That has zero relevance to a social work degree. And also I'm 18. So there was absolutely no way I was about to get on a course because your age will always go against you when you're as young as I am trying to get on a social work degree. Is that right? Is it? I don't know. I've never tried to get on a course. Yes. So I applied to this psychology course. It's equivalent of three A levels in one year, which would then get me up to the equivalent of about five A levels and a short course. It's only a year. And it also gave me a bit of leeway and working out where I'm going to live, what I'm doing, where I want to go to uni, where I can go to uni that I can get back easily applying to universities and having more of my personal statement that's relevant to the degree. Because at the moment I'm going, I've got a child care qualification. I've done a psychology AS. I'm quite bright in business and finance and I'm a waitress, but not much of that is very relevant. What about the work that you've done with Jersey Mind? I mean, isn't it? Oh, Youthful Mind. Yeah, that's really good. But and although it makes me stand out, it wasn't going to make me stand out enough. And I quite like being different. And I like aspire for at least one unconditional next year. I'm saying I'm doing a psychology course, but when I got interviewed for this course, the whole way throughout my interview, I was being told that he was going, because you know, you're really going to have to fight for your place on a social work degree. And I said, yeah. And he goes, you know, because of that, we don't usually take people your age. And I went, okay, in the whole way throughout my interview, I thought, oh no, there's no way I'm about to get on this course. But I got offered a place there and then I was delighted. Yeah. So it's a one year course, there's three levels in one year, and it's psychology. So I know it won't be dull and boring. And that's all to what I wanted to avoid this year. I was like, I don't want to just bought the absolute hell of myself for a year because I'm not sure I could cope with that. I'd get to the end of the year and I'd just be done with it. So it's a course at UCJ, which is obviously the uni in Jersey. And it bought me a bit of time and gets me a big qualification. And it's marked in a really good way. It's essays the whole way across the year. I can write a pretty good essay. And I just, I want to have enough that will make me be able to get offered an offer quite realistically because at the moment it just, there was no way I was going to get on course. Do you think that being care experienced is going to help you get on to a social work course? I think so. I do. I think a lot of the time people my age don't usually get offers easily on social work degrees because it's thought you're maybe a bit naive. You don't know what you're walking into. And it's a hard line of work emotionally. It's challenging. But I don't think I am naive. And I think that a lot of the getting offers on degrees like this, when you are so young, it's about proving you know, you know what you're getting yourself in for. Because for older people, it wouldn't be, I'm looking at needing A's across the board in order to get an offer. It's so academic when you're so young. But for someone that was maybe 15 years older than me, 10 to 15, it would be about life experience. Yeah, I see. Yes. But you've got to, yeah, you've got to show it through your exams because that's what you've kind of got. But you have got the life experience as well because you're care experienced. So you do bring that to the table. Yeah, but I am also 18. So naturally people look at me and they think that I've not got a clue. How does that make you feel? I'm not going to lie. It's quite patronizing. Really patronizing because I feel like I've been about 45 since I was about three. But yeah, a lot of the time because I am only 18, it's assumed I just don't, I don't know. I don't know anything. Can I just, I go to school, I leave school, I come home and I do nothing. But that's obviously not case. I don't know. I think when you are a caregiver, you're seen as the same way every other 18 year old is. And stereotypically that you've not got a clue what you want to do. And you've probably got no goals. Only when you're a caregiver, you're just not seen to be that bright either. It's like from the get go, you're stereotypically like probably dropped out of education. It's not always the case. I feel like you've got, you've got a lot that you want to prove here. Like you're, there's a lot of stereotypes and myths that you're... Yeah, there is. I feel like I'm always proving myself. But I think that comes part and parcel of being caregiver. You know what, and it's horrible because if you are a caregiver experience, you know what people think of you. And usually it's not very much. How come you know what people think of you? What do you mean? Explain that. It's, there is a type that people think you are. Like you all, it's like you're not individual. You're just all the same. Wow. Yeah, there's no like individuality at all. And do you, do you think it's difficult because you don't have anyone championing your cause? Or maybe you do. But like, you know, if you were living with your family, then perhaps you'd have a parent or a carer if you're still in care, who would be kind of fighting your corner and telling people, don't, don't lump Kira with everyone. She's Kira. She's the other. But do you have anyone who does that for you now? Yeah. But the problem is they work nine to five. Do you know what I mean? Like, okay, so I'll give you an example. You've got two daughters. Yeah. And post five o'clock, you wouldn't just be unavailable to them? No. No. When you're a caregiver, you get to five o'clock or weekend. And that is done. So, okay, so there's care there for you. There are people that care, but they care nine to five. That's what you're saying. Yeah, they care nine to five. Well, you've got some that are very, very set in their ways, or they make it quite obvious that they're doing what they're doing because they're paid to be doing it. And that's totally 100% fair enough because you've got a job to do. You're getting paid to do your job. And that's fine. However, you wouldn't tell your kid that you're getting paid to look after them. And that's why you've gotten. But then playing devil's advocate kind of fast forward five, 10, 15 years, and you are a social worker, don't you think it's going to be really important that you put really good boundaries in place so that you've got time for yourself and maybe your friends and family and stuff outside of your work? Or do you think you'll be kind of on it all the time? I think you have got to have boundaries. But I think there's a very fine line between having boundaries and being careless. And it's a very easy one to cross. And what clouds you when someone's kind of crossed that? Is it a very physical thing? Literally, I'm not available. Or is there a way in which people talk to you or behave towards you that makes you think they don't care? I think it depends on the person, a relationship you've got between nine and five as well. If you've got like no relationship, then it's hardly a surprise that they don't really care about you. But I don't know, I think it is about people's attitude or you get some that tell you that they're also care experienced and they relate. And it's why they want to go into that line of work, but they still don't care. How will you not? Sometimes, sometimes I worry about it because I think when I get to like 40, but I just forget what it's like and then not care either. How will you avoid that for quite a long time? Okay. But then I thought, I don't think I could imagine just not caring. Yeah, I can't imagine you're not caring either, but then maybe the social workers who you're thinking of who are care experienced would have felt that about themselves. I don't, I don't know. I don't know either. The whole thing confuses me. I think about it quite a lot. Yeah. And do you think that, so okay, so you're 40 year old Kira and you have got some fairly decent boundaries in place because you have to look after yourself and maybe you've got other things going on in your life too, but you've got a case load. Is it about like literally being there for those kids outside of ours, or is it about holding them in mind and then knowing that you care even if you're not physically available? I think this is a thing. I think there is some where if they talk to you, you know, they're thinking about you. However, if you're just like, if someone's a bit distant and cold throughout the whole entire workday, you're not, you're not going to think much about it at all. But if you're caring for the amount of people you've got that are going to care about you anyway, it's probably quite minimal. It's a quite small number. If you're lucky to have a number, I don't know. I really don't know. I think, I think it's got to be a mixture of the two. I just, I, I couldn't imagine working with someone and knowing they had no one else and being completely content, being a bit cold. Yeah. I don't get it. Maybe it's a bit about though, as you, you sort of alluded to the strength of that connection in the working day actually being really available for them when you are available. I think it depends. I just, I don't know. It just confuses me. Yeah. It really does the whole thing. And what role do, you know, as, as you said, you haven't, you know, you haven't got a big number of people in your support network, that's not surprising. But does that mean that like your friends and your peers play a different role within your life than they might do otherwise? I don't think so. I think for some people it probably could do. Because obviously if you've got really no one else but your friends, then I think if you're more reliant, then that's where it differs. Because I don't know. I know that I'm really independent from my age, because I am so young, but not everyone is like that. So I feel like if you are more, I say needy, but that's probably a better word than it could become maybe a bit of an issue. But otherwise, I don't think so. I'm thinking like, yeah, sorry, you're making me really think. You're good into being pooky. Just sit there and think. No, but you have really, no, that's it. Like you have really made me think about a lot of things. And I think it's really important for people to hear your voice and to think about some of these things. And it's hard, actually. Like as a mum, you are only eight years older than my daughters. And the idea that they could be just off in the world, expected to do things completely for themselves at that age is, yeah, I find that very, very hard. And I guess that's why I do care about what happens to you and I would want to help. But I think it's a little bit like you said about wanting to be director of children's services. I can help you and I hope you'll let me, but I can't do that for like each individual need. And so what do we need to do like on a bigger level to make it better? Like if you were going like, so, you know, you do the director of children's services in Jersey for a while, like what's even bigger than that? Like one needs to have... I don't know. No. I think it is because all of us are so different. So different. Like I don't think not all of us are going to get to 18 and want to move out and go to university because that is so standard, I suppose. Or it is what for someone that isn't care experience, that is what is the norm. I don't think everyone does that. Some people take up years. People that aren't care experience differ, but so do we. And because we're care experience, it doesn't come like a personality trait. Like it doesn't make us all the same or have the same interests or likes or dislikes or hobbies. We're not, that's not how it works. We don't will have the same needs at the same time at the same age and at the same stage. And so I feel like it would be quite different, be hard to make a difference, a big difference to everyone at the same time. So there's not going to be like a universal set of sort of strategy systems that can be put in place, but maybe it's about thinking about what support is needed to make sure that each young person has a kind of tailored plan, isn't it? Okay, I think we need to, we're going to need to keep thinking about this. We're going to need to keep thinking about this. So I think I've just realized the time we've been talking for much longer than it feels like. What, as we kind of come to wrap up, what kind of thoughts would you like to leave people with? I always think, you know, you do psychology, primacy and recency effects, people remember the first thing you say and the last thing you say. So what are you going to leave people with? I don't know. That's rubbish, Kira, try again. I know you just didn't ask me to think about it. This wasn't in your pre-podcast email. It wasn't in my pre-podcast email. Well, okay, okay. Was your last thing you want people to think about? Do you know what I would like people to think about is that they've met you now and you have, I hope, bought the idea of a young person who has experienced care to life for them and that when they are making decisions in their life, in their work, that they actually just imagine, you know, what would Kira say in their head? Because you're right, not all people who have experienced care are the same or similar, but I think sometimes we forget. We almost lose sight of the fact that you're not just numbers, you're people. Yeah. Yeah, I don't know. What do you think is a question I should look to explore in, like, a further episode with someone else? Like, do you have any ideas about who might be a really good person to interview or a question you think must be answered, must be explored? I think you should ask the same questions you asked me to a social worker. Ooh, I like that. Okay, okay. Right, you're on. Okay, so I've got to go on the hunt for a good social worker to talk to me. Okay, I'll take that challenge, Kira. Thank you.