 This is Think Tech Hawaii, Community Matters here. It's all a tremendous synergy and assimilation of so many ideas. You know, today we did have a show on the Amazon Go thing this morning. We also had a show on China. And it goes to the Richard Hornick speech that I was telling you about Russell. It goes to mind control in China. But if you take them all together and you synergize everything that happened on those two shows, you get this show with Russell Yu. Because we will be able to make sense out of both sides of that. Russell Yu, a lawyer, a Honolulu lawyer, practicing in Beijing and teaching in Beijing. And it's 15 years now. Full time, 15 years. Yeah, it's amazing. And we're going to call this, what are we going to call this, artificial intelligence. The race is on between the U.S. and China. Actually, you know, you don't need to see artificial intelligence. You could just say the race is on between the U.S. and China. In every way, that's the way it is, tagline, who's winning the race for artificial intelligence? Very interesting, very important. And it's a kind of, it's a look through the keyhole about what's really happening here. We need to have these discussions to compare what's happening there. We're a great window for that, Russell. What's happening here, what's happening in Europe and elsewhere. Welcome back to your show, Russell Yu. Thank you, Jay. It's wonderful to be back here in Honolulu, where it's nice and warm. The air is clean, but, you know, this year Beijing has actually been very clean. The government controls. This is good. Unpollution. Well, that's because the Politburo can do things. You know, the U.S., we can't even, you know, we can't even keep the government going. We're down every now and then, and everybody fusses and fumes about opening it up and starting it up again. They don't have that problem in Beijing, I don't think. Well, I think from the Chinese perspective, they're just bewildered. The headlines in China now is, you know, this is the greatest form of government that we've looked at in the past years, and to see it has these issues where things are being shut down. You know, again, it's a time of change for everyone in China and the U.S. and so our topic today really hits on something that I think is a real game changer in our society, whether it's China or the U.S., the use of artificial intelligence, you know, with the Amazon's opening of the Amazon Go Store in Seattle. So we think we're ahead of China, but are we really ahead? Well, the big question, and you know, I mean, you're going to know the answer better than anybody I've talked to, is, so, did they have an Amazon Go Store or the like of an Amazon Go Store in China now? Well, I think they've already opened their stores last year in Shanghai. The Alibaba... It's not Amazon, though, it's somebody else. It's Alibaba. It's Alibaba, Jack Ma. Jack Ma, Alibaba, and they have a cafe, tau or tau cafe, and basically it's a kind of a convenience store, it's like Amazon Go, and it uses the technology that China has been using for many years, the last five years, you know. What technology is that, Russell? For example, I was reading about Amazon. I've even seen... I've got the Amazon Go Store, but you're taking the playbook out of China. You have to scan the QR code when you enter. Same thing in China, you have the QR codes, Alipay, and it's scanned. First similarity right there. We're learning from China and to enter, so it pulls up your profile through the big computers and to the use of artificial intelligence through face recognition, through sensors. All of this happened in China. Let's stop there. So, you know, one of the issues around this is how can I game the system? And everybody's trying to figure out how to game the Amazon system. And I suppose that issue has come up in China, too, because of similar systems. So if I walk in and I put the QR code down on the reader, so to speak, I could have somebody else's QR code. I could have a phony... I could have a stolen identity QR code, and I would be charging all my things to someone else, which is not what we want. That's not acceptable. So you talk about artificial intelligence. How do we use artificial intelligence to verify my QR code that it's really me? I think a lot of the knowledge today, you have face recognition through sensors. You know, that's not new. We see through the iPhones that technology is there through Microsoft, they have it for their Windows system. It'll recognize you. You can't log in. So I'm sure that the QR codes tied into a facial recognition feature. Now, also... So you put the thing down with the QR code. In the Amazon store, there's 200 cameras watching you, 200, right? And they're all good cameras, and they are taking a picture of your face and they're comparing it with your profile somewhere, which has a picture or maybe many pictures of your face and trying to verify against what these cameras are seeing in your face. And if they find that you are the person in the profile, they let you in. Is that what happens? Well, I'm not sure how Amazon does. Those are secrets that we all don't know. They are indeed secrets. But there's mention of it that they're there. The Alibaba stores are also secret, aren't they? They're all secret. But I think getting back to it, I think what happens through the process, through Alibaba, Alipay, WeChat and WeChat Pay, you're tied into the national ID or your passport if you're foreigner. So your face is there, everything's in there. So there is a sense that you are the person that can actually use this. So again, that's an issue that I'm sure Alibaba, Alipay and Amazon has thought about how do we prevent potential. They want to be ripped off, not only because they'll be ripped off in this store, which sells convenience store kinds of things. But the next generation of these stores are going to be selling much more expensive things. And so they have to use these stores as a laboratory to make sure that in the next generation of stores, they have 100 percent reliability. So after your face is verified, against the Q code, QR code and all that, what happens in your experience in the Alibaba store? Well, I haven't actually visited the Alibaba store in Shanghai. But from my understanding, what happens is that there are sensors that deal with movement. If you take things off the shelf, it will sense that and it's tracked to your Q code. And when you leave, it will sense that you're leaving. And what you've taken off, it's already in the system. Where it knows what you're buying. How does it know? Well, it knows it because you took it off the shelf. That's the Amazon also. Amazon has sensors. It took a picture of you taking it off the shelf. Well, I think there are sensors that have to do with the actual item that's being taken off the shelf. And what kind of sensors? Well, these are sensors where there's cameras. I've seen the Alibaba. They're information about it where they actually have cameras and they have sensors that watch you. And they can tell if you've taken something off. Let me try to make a construct on that. So there's some kind of signature on the package. And they're taking a picture of you, the shelf and the package, maybe multiple pictures. And they're using artificial intelligence to make some conclusions about it's you. It's your account because you did sign in and it knows what you look like. It knows what's on the shelf because it has a map of everything in the store. And exactly where that thing is on the shelf. It knows where you're standing because, you know, it's smart enough to know that this angle of the camera with that background can be mapped to a specific location at a specific shelf on the store. And then when you touch something, it's looking over your shoulder and it's seeing that thing move. And it's seeing the code, the signature of that thing that's just readable by the camera in your hands. And then it's like a person. It's like a person watching you take something off the shelf. That's what it's like. That's artificial intelligence. That's artificial intelligence. And while it's doing all this computing distance, weight so far, it basically runs a series of algorithms. It's a mathematical computation. And so in the end, it knows who you are. It knows what you're taking. It knows what you're walking out of the store so you get charged with it. And I believe that Amazon Go is a similar concept. Yeah, it does. And it can't be identical, but it's going to be similar. One thing about Amazon that was in the paper this morning in The Guardian was that one guy tried with the permission of the store who put a blanket or some kind of cover on the item he was putting in his shopping bag to see if he could game the system, fool the system, and the system charged him for it, even though the system could not see any particular codes on the package he was removing because he had covered it. So this AI is smart enough to get around that kind of gaming. So I think that's a whole change in the way business is going to be done. And, you know, around the US, Walmart has been testing the artificial intelligence technology, although it has not come out with something yet. And Macy's has Macy's on call using artificial intelligence also to actually to make it a much more useful consumer experience, finding what you want to the store, finding out whether something is a stock, all without the human element, all without having a person there. Aside from reading articles, you know, press releases and the like that, you know, that a given company will agree to release, will want to release in order to show how good it is. Aside from that, do you think there's any collaboration between Jack Ma and Ali Baba and Amazon, or are they in their separate corners? I think they're pretty much in their separate corners. There might be some overlap in cooperation, but, you know, it's very different because in China, the market is, I think, much more developed, much more advanced. And there's really several reasons why China's ahead. I think that China's ahead. It goes with everything from the government, to the consumer, to the size of the market. And, you know, why China is such a market that is much more advanced because people are having, are stepping technology much more readily. Even though people have smartphones. They're excited about technology. It's not exciting. They've seen how powerful it is. They have to use it because it used to be a society that you'd carry cash and when you carry cash, you know, you've got only so much cash and that's it. You have to go to the bank and the next step in the evolution in the US was where we write checks. We do charge cards and the Chinese have jumped over that because of technology. They don't need charge cards. It's still a cash society, but we don't use cash, but we use our smartphones. We use WeChat Pay, for example. We can direct payments to somebody else. Is it like a debit card? I mean, you have to have the money in the account or will it draw down on your balance somewhere else when you exceed what you have on deposit in your account? I'm not sure if you really get debit card, but, you know, I don't know how to characterize it, Jay, but all I know is it's you have to connect your WeChat account to the bank. You have to check, connect your Alipay to the bank. So what it does is it immediately takes it out of the bank right there. It's it's simultaneous. Suppose you don't have the money in the bank. If you don't have money, then you can't buy anything. It stops you right there. It stops, it blocks, it says, no, you can't buy anything. It will stop you with the transaction when I go through. And so it's sort of like having cash in your in your your iPhone or smartphone. And the good thing about it is that you can do many things with it, Jay. You can you can, for example, if I'm out for dinner with my American friends and we go Dutch and my bill is eight dollars and thirty one cents. We calculate the other, my friend, it's twenty dollars and two cents. In the old days, we go out to eat. It's like, oh, I'm sorry, I don't have change. You know what? I'll get you guys later and you never get paid. The Chinese are smart with the WeChat would pay. All I do is you plug in the amount exactly eight dollars and one cents. I send it to Jay Fidel to your account and WeChat. And that money comes over instantaneously. Bingo, it pops up. I like that, you know, so it's good. You don't get you don't get left behind that way. The victim of your good good good graces. So, you know, a big question on this is when when Jack Ma develops for Alibaba, you know, he has Alibaba, which is a kind of Chinese Amazon. But Jack Ma is buddy with with with the government. I mean, as many people, many business people in China are. And he's got the full support of the Chinese government. And my question to you is how much is the Chinese government involved in this initiative? Because whatever you do, it costs plenty money to develop this kind of technology. Well, I don't think Jack Ma is doing it with the government or the suggestion that the government there's a negative connotation is involved behind. I don't think so. I think what happens is the government really becomes a business partner. And for example, many started companies, the national policy is innovation. The national policy now is switched to by 2030, China says our goal is to become the artificial intelligence king around the world. It'll be very global. And so what what they're doing is they're they're they're pushing that direction. So, you know, certain joint measures, the money can be borrowed from the government, I suspect. And you have a really a partner who sets out a national agenda. And I think there are there are many things that are good for the business world, because that's the direction China was to take. For example, years ago, they decided we're not going to be the garage for manufacturers around the world. We want to switch to technology. So a lot of Chinese companies, industries went out of business. A lot of factors in Guangdong closed down. It was it was it was a time where no longer you have to be in high tech. Innovate or die. Yes, exactly. That's why Shenzhen became even more important because that's their Silicon Valley. Yeah. So what what you have is a tremendous amount of innovation now. And if I were in China, I'd be watching Amazon. And for that matter, if I was Amazon, I'd be watching in China. And all of this is on a bed of data. As you said in the materials you gave me said, it's all on a bed of data. You can't do this without keeping a lot of data and analyzing a lot of data using artificial intelligence. And I think it's fair to say that's happening in China. It has happened in China where nobody's going to stand in the way of the government's data collection, personal data collection. And it must be it must be happening or will happen in the Amazon case because, you know, people, although they may not be so so permissive about letting the government collect data in the US as they are in China. I think people are getting into that. They're getting may I say lulled into it. It's OK. I'm I'm I have nothing to hide. I remind sharing my personal data with the government. So I let them do it. In fact, there's a renewal of the Patriot Act, which is happening right now. Probably expanding the Patriot Act, as I recall. And so I think, you know, we're at first and saying, if you looked at this issue in the United States before 2001, before 9-11, people would have balked at the idea of the government collecting data, you know, at the at your at your cell phone company. You know, the black box they put in your cell phone company and all these other, you know, dark collection of data, even without the old fashioned search warrants. But now people, you know, as in China, they're getting lulled into the idea that, well, it's OK. You know, it's happening. It's it's it's part of the technological evolution of the world, as we know it. So it's it's OK. And we're not going to say anything. And we're not going to complain. And this Amazon Go is probably going to encourage them to do that because they want in they want into this kind of technology. It's OK. You can take my picture. You can, you know, process all my information and remember my profile and all that. But isn't it a little scary, Russell? Well, I think I think whenever you have personal, if you're looking from the American perspective, I think of culture, you're looking at concerns that deal with individual liberties. You're looking at concerns of privacy. And these are the issues that I think are more prevalent in the U.S. side. And the China side, you've got to realize the culture. Privacy really doesn't exist because growing up, you lived with your family. You live with your grandparents. You live in a small room, nothing's private. In fact, culture is so different, Jay. And I think that's what we're missing the point here, because from the American point of view, we like to shut our doors and have privacy. We like our space in China. If you shut your doors to the rest of the family, that means that tells them you're up to no good, you're up to no good. Because in China, it's simply just walk in, walk out. This is all part of the group. And, you know, I want to make this thing plain, though, Russell. We're going to we're going to take a break. And in a sense, conceptually, that is like shutting the door in our audience. And we're doing this with full knowledge of our audience. They may think we're hiding something, but we're not hiding anything. We're merely taking a break. OK, watch this. Hey, hello. Stan Energyman here on Think Tech Hawaii, where community matters. This is the place to come to think about all things energy. We talk about energy for the grid, energy for vehicles, energy and transportation, energy and maritime, energy and aviation. We have all kinds of things on our show, but we always focus on hydrogen here in Hawaii, because it's my favorite thing. That's what I like to do. But we talk about things that make a difference here in Hawaii, things that should be a big changer for Hawaii. And we hope that you'll join us every Friday at noon on Stan Energyman and take a look with us at new technologies and new thoughts on how we can get clean and green in Hawaii. Aloha. Aloha, I'm Keeley Ikeena and I'm here every other week on Mondays at two o'clock p.m. on Think Tech Hawaii's Hawaii Together. In Hawaii Together, we talk with some of the most fascinating people in the islands about working together, working together for a better economy, government and society. So I invite you into our conversation every other Monday at 2 p.m. on Think Tech Hawaii Broadcast Network. Join us for Hawaii Together. I'm Keeley Ikeena. Aloha. OK, that's Russell Yu. He's a law professor in Beijing and a Hawaii lawyer to boot. And he's been talking about the things that he learns in his life in China. He's been there 15 years and has a fairly good grasp of what's going on. And comparing, comparing what goes on there with what goes on here. So, you know, Russell, I mean, how is this kind of technology in your perception going to affect the need for privacy or the cultural expectation of privacy? Maybe in many ways historic in this country. Going forward, what's going to happen, do you think? Well, I think artificial intelligence, I think will it succeed or not the U.S., from America's perspective, you know, we have a certain level of expectation of privacy. We don't want people to know about our personal information. We have individual liberty. And the Chinese world, the culture is so different. So the expectation of privacy, I think, is not as high as in an American world. This is culture. In China, it's a group culture. It's a culture based on we had to overcome hardships in China. We didn't have the financial resources. So we have to pull our money. We have to pull ourselves together in a group to be stronger. And so it's a Confucian society. Yeah. So it was not the individual. Surrender notions of privacy. Surrender notions of privacy. For the benefit of the group. For the benefit of the group. Yeah. And it's OK as long as we make progress. Yeah. So I was telling you about this speech by Richard Hornick at the China Seminar in the East West Center last week, two weeks ago. And what strikes me, though, is that this is part of the same thing. It's part of the same thing. Because what's happened, although a few years ago, there was more academic freedom, more personal freedom of speech. You could express yourself without too much fear of being penalized by the government. But now that's kind of changed in recent years under Xi Jinping. You remember Xi Jinping? He's the one that wants to be treated like Mao, that Xi Jinping, who is written into the Constitution now as having the thought of Xi Jinping compared to the thought of Mao's quite something. Deng Xiaoping never got to that level, which, you know, some people thought he should have. So I guess, you know, there's a comparison then in the way people treat this new mind control kind of thing that Richard Hornick is talking about. And, you know, the idea of surrendering your privacy for the community good, I wonder if you could comment on that. I think it happens everywhere, Jay. Look about who's inventor of fake news. You know, Jay Trump. So we have the same issues here, but maybe a different face. And I think that in China, at least a perspective, I can't really comment because I'm not a Chinese citizen. I don't get probably more depth thoughts as they do. But I think one of the things, as I said back again, I don't think people, you know, it's a culture thing. It's a group culture and it's moving in directions that it could not have moved. The miracles, 800 million people lifted out of poverty. It is you have a high speed train. Travel is such much more convenient. You don't need to carry cash. You carry your wage at your smartphone. You communicate through your smartphone. You have the most largest number of Internet users in China. And yet you have a society where it is still a run by a single party. Again, there are trade-offs. So I think it depends on the eyes of the people, you know, their perspective. Because I think if we look through the eyes of a Westerner and we talk about rule of law, we talk about constitution, I think, yes, that would be something that we as Americans cannot live in or tolerate. And I think it's a different set of ideals and thinkings. You know, we come from a rule of law. You know, we have our own problems. We have guns. You know, have we gone so crazy with this individual liberty that the Second Amendment says we can take a gun and go out and do things? People do things with guns. That's an incomplete conversation. And again, if you're talking what Richard is saying, well, let's take a look at the flip side. Let's go in China. You can walk in two o'clock, three o'clock. You never fear that you're going to get picked up and shot at. You know. So again, their price is worth it. Yeah, that's worth something. So that's worth something. I mean, imagine if you're living in New York, Jay, and you're from New York, Jay, I understand, right? And you know, you walk in the street at night, you're in a wrong section town, you're going to be worried. You're going to be worried staying out late at night because the possibility or catching the subway in China never happens. No, I remember when I was in China a couple of times ago, we walked all the way across town one night late at night. After dinner, we walked all the way back to our hotel. It was a long way on dark streets. Nobody was afraid of anything. You know, again, so it was completely safe. Right. And again, so again, I'm not the expert to tell what's right or wrong. But again, we've got to realize that we've got to put our different blinders on. It's a different set of sunglasses there and here. Well, I think I'd like to throw one thing in the pot. And that is that in China, people are pretty excited about China's success. You know, what's that old cultural point about if the government is giving you a good economy, you respect the government, you back the government. If the government stops giving you a good economy, you have the right to upend the government. And you don't need to do that now because it's obviously successful on a number of levels. And the price of success, of course, is going along with the program. And what strikes me is that people are very, in China, am I right, are very excited about this success. It is beyond where they expected. It is glorious is what it is. They have had hard times in memorable past and memory. But now they are absolutely happy. And because they are happy with the economy and the technology, they don't mind incursions on what might have been, you know, incursions before. Yeah. And I think the word incursion, I mean, that's because incursions, that from a Western front of view, would call them incursions. Okay, forgive my Western approach to this. In the Chinese way, you know, it's part of a cultural thing that, for example, let's go back to, for example, the author that wrote Tiger Mom. Yeah, sure. In American honest, we're appalled by it. Appalled by it. But you know, if you ask the Chinese in America, as well as in China, does this happen? Yes, it does happen. And it's because this is what has propelled them to success. Yeah. And it's a culture. And it was okay to be managed. You know, the whole idea in the Chinese world is that you are managed by your parents. That's how the kids come successful. You have to have a drive. That's why they don't commit crimes. Yes, they may be missing certain things in life that we have in America, but this is how they move their society to the next level. And that's how it has worked in culture. So when you talk about government, it's sort of like, it's a benevolent mom and dad, sort of Singapore. Singapore was not a true democracy. That was a dictatorship. It was a benevolent dictatorship. Yeah. So in some sense, there is a cultural thing that runs through all of this. And I think, again, you hear experts that talk about China, yes, from a U.S. point of view. I think I'd agree that it's not like what we have here, and it can be objectionable. But in their world, again, you think about it. The priorities are different. The cultural makeup is totally different. And they view it differently. You know, it's not for me to say. It takes me back to the title of our program. We fashioned this to say, artificial intelligence, the race is on between the U.S. and China. And my comment on that is it's not only about artificial intelligence, it's about everything. It's about success. It's about pushing the envelope on technology, on the economy, on diplomatic relations, for that matter. And the race is on. And frankly, China is doing very well. And I guess the question I put to you, last question is, how important is it to the average Chinese citizen that China wins the race? I don't think there's a win type of situation. I think we've come into a global world. And I think the more Chinese are coming out to travel to see the U.S., the more they're being educated. A million students every year leave China to get educated in the West. I don't think it's a zero-sum game. I think it allows them to have things that they would not have before. For example, there are a lot of great products that are... There's technology, Jay. There's a lot of great products that are made for export to the U.S. But you can't buy it in China. Now, with artificial intelligence, now with e-commerce, you can buy these things and Amazon will ship it to China. And there are portals in which e-commerce has crossed borders. And think about it. American companies, small, medium-sized, that don't have the money to go and open a China, you just sell it through e-commerce. It crosses the border. It's a world where we're becoming more of a shared reality. And I think... I don't think the Chinese will view it as something like win or what. But I think the reality is that they're looking and maybe they can't understand why, when they come to the U.S., you have to have a charge card for this. Well, we don't use a charge card. We use WeChat. The reality is that we're getting across in two worlds because of technology. And artificial intelligence is the latest that I think is going to be a good indicator where a society at some point. Yeah, you know, in the past, we used to think that China emulated our technology, our success, our education, our business process, and all that. And I saw something in... I forget where it was in the last day or so in one of my various newspapers to suggest that the Chinese have gotten over the notion that they need to emulate us. The Chinese actually are out ahead on many of these things. And the question now is whether we understand that we should be learning from them. That's a great point. I saw that also, Jay. And I think that the old world of copycat is gone. Chinese are not copycat. They have their own innovation. And the thing about it is that they're using it in a huge market of internet users in their world. So they test out these latest technologies. We don't do it here. And it seems to me that, again, they are much more innovative. I see the smartphone as a really essential key piece in this whole digital revolution. And the Chinese are making applications for it. We're behind. We're not going to have applications for it. We're tied in with contracts, with mobile companies, that they want to collect us from so much money every year. And we don't see innovation in them, you see? And we have a society that the bank source are not like the Chinese banks. Although the Chinese banks in China are run by the government, owned by the government. But they don't facilitate that e-commerce like in China. The banks are tied into WeChat, AliPay. So I don't have to go to a bank. I don't have to go to an ATM machine. I just use MyWeChat. So where you might read that Amazon Go in Seattle is a great statement of the boundaries of artificial intelligence. And that if there is a store like store in China, they must have copied it from Amazon. But my revelation here is that that isn't so. That in fact, the Chinese store opened some months ago in 2017 anyway. And that if anybody had the opportunity to look across the pond and see and learn from the other guy, it was Amazon learning from the Chinese. Let's get that straight. Yes. And next time when I'm in China, I'll go to Shanghai. We're going to do an actual tour through one of these stores. Take pictures. I have live videos, Jay. Thank you, Russell. Aloha. Aloha. Say, Jay. Say, Jen. Say, Jen. Say, Jen. Again soon.