 Salam alaykum dear respected brothers and sisters, and welcome to another episode of Live in London with Dr. Said Amman Akshwani. Tonight's topic is the topic of Imamat. Now, Imamat in English is leadership, roughly translated to leadership. Imamat is a fundamental and big pillar of the Shi'i belief system. Twelve Imams revered by millions, yet many questions and misconceptions arise around this topic. For example, are the Imams within the Shi'i school infallible? If so, to what level? To what level were their knowledge, did they have knowledge of the unseen? Is Imamat a political stance, or was it mentioned during the life of the Holy Prophet, or was it arisen after the death of the Holy Prophet? These are questions that we'll be looking to answer in tonight's show, inshallah, with our esteemed guest, Dr. Said Amman Akshwani. Salam alaykum, very nice to have you on our show again. Thank you, thank you so much. Pleasure to be here. Said, the difference between the Sunni and Shi'i split is mainly centered around the issue of Imamat. Would you be kind enough to elaborate on the topic for us tonight? I don't think it's mainly centered around the issue of Imamat. I think the main differences between the Shi'i school and other schools within the religion of Islam is two major epistemological differences that need to be understood. Because I've seen many people email me questions recently about proving Imamat, and the belief in Imamat. And I think many of them have not understood the world view of the school of Ahlul Bayt, in contrast to other world views. Before you discuss Imamah, or you discuss Nobuwa, or you even discuss the belief in Allah, there's two epistemological issues, two theories of knowledge that we all need to understand very clearly. The first of them is the fact of looking at where we're getting our knowledge from about the religion of Islam. Where I get my knowledge from in the school of Ahlul Bayt is completely different from other schools in the religion of Islam. When a person asks me to prove Imamah as a belief, where I'm getting the sources of my knowledge in order to understand the position of the Imams, or to understand the life of Rasulullah sallallahu alaihi wa ala, because naturally that's going to be fundamental in understanding whether he has made an announcement in relation to a designation about authority after he passes away. Where I get my knowledge about the fundamental principles of the religion of Islam is from the likes of Imam Ali ibn al-Salam, from Imam al-Hasan al-Salam, Fatima al-Zahra al-Salam, from Imam al-Husain al-Salam, Imam Zain al-Abideen, Imam al-Baqir al-Sadaq. Imam al-Sadaq for me, as a Shia and a follower of the school of Ahlul Bayt, he has thousands of narrations that explain to me God, that explain to me prophethood, that explain to me Imamah, that explain to me the meaning of the day of judgment. If you look at our brothers in other schools in Islam, you'll be hard pressed to find a hundred narrations from someone like Imam al-Sadaq al-Salam. I guarantee you that if you go to other schools in Islam, ask them about Imam al-Sadaq al-Salam, you'll be lucky to get a hundred narrations from him. For me, I've got thousands of narrations from Imam al-Sadaq al-Salam, which means that when I'm coming to discuss any Islamic issue, my knowledge base is going to be from the likes of Imam al-Sadaq, Imam al-Baqir, Imam Zain al-Abideen and so on. My knowledge base is going to be from the Ahlul Bayt al-Salam. My istidlal and the proofs of how a verse, for example, of the Quran was revealed, why it was revealed, when it was revealed, is going to be from who? From the Ahlul Bayt al-Salam. My knowledge of every event in the life of the Holy Prophet peace be upon him and his family is going to be from who? From the Ahlul Bayt al-Salam. I do not take my understanding of the Quran or my understanding of God or my understanding of the Seerah of the Prophet Muhammad peace be upon his family, of his biography. I don't take it from where other schools in Islam may take it. For example, you've got Ahlul Sunnah wal-Jama'ah will take predominantly their understanding of the Tafseerah of the Holy Quran, which is pivotal when it comes to understanding our belief in God or in Prophethood, or for example the Day of Judgment, or when we come to discuss Imamah, for example, I'm not going to take my Tafseerah of the Holy Quran from Anas bin Malik. I don't have any reverence for Anas bin Malik whatsoever in my life. Nor would I take from Abdullah bin Umar. Nor would I take from Aisha. Nor would I take from Abu Hurairah. Let's make this clear right from the beginning. Because just in case someone keeps coming and telling you, you she I can't prove to me your beliefs, I can. But my worldview firstly is that my source of knowledge are the Imams of Ahlul Bayt, Alaykum As-salam number one. Number two, if I'm going to take knowledge from Sahaba, I'll take from Salman al-Muhammadi. I'll take from Abu Dhar al-Ghafari. I'll take from Al-Muqdad. I'll take from, for example, Ammar bin Yasir. I'll take from Jabir bin Abdullah al-Ansari. I'll take from, let's say, Abdullah bin Mas'ud. And I'm being very specific with who I'm mentioning that these are the people who, when I want to show a position in the school of Ahlul Bayt on a certain issue, these are the personalities I'm going to go to. I will not go to Abu Hurairah. Abu Hurairah for me is not an authority. I really don't care about a single thing Abu Hurairah says. And this is not something to smile about. It's something because I'm seeing people out there today who are asking me, where did you get your knowledge from? Prove to me this belief. I don't take from Abu Hurairah. I don't take from Aisha. I don't take from Abdullah bin Umar. And I don't take from Anas bin Malik. I may take from Ibn Abbas, that which does not contradict the school of Ahlul Bayt. I may take from Ibn Abbas. Yes, why not? But if a person expects me to discuss an issue in the school of Ahlul Bayt, and I'm saying that when you say to me the major difference between Sunni and Shia as Imam, no it's not. Let's start all the way from the beginning. Our worldview and our understanding of Allah, who do I get it from? I get from Ahlul Bayt. I'm not taking my understanding of God from Abu Hurairah or from Anas bin Malik. These are not an authority for me. They can narrate thousands of traditions. None of those traditions will mean anything to me, unless they are traditions, which don't contradict what Imam al-Baqir or Imam al-Sadaq, the great-grandson of Rasulullah, has said. That first epistemological point is fundamental, because today when someone's trying to tell me prove this and prove that for me, and they're saying to me that they want me to prove it according to companions who have explained what is in the Qur'an and its revelations, or according to companions who are explaining to me the seer of Rasulullah, no I'm not. I'm not going to take from any of them, and I will not take from any of them. When I see some of our youths being cornered today on this issue of Imamat, and this constant point that's being made that the difference between Sunni and Shia as Imam, no it's not. My conception of God is different to yours. The way Imam Ali ibn Abi Talib talks about God, Abu Huraira and Anas and Abdullah ibn Umar and Aisha, they will all come together, will not come near a line of Ali ibn Abi Talib and Aleyhi salam when he talks about God. My understanding of God, of the attributes of essence, of the attributes of action, there is a clear difference between the understanding in the Sunni world and the Shia world. Yes, we all believe in Allah swt, and even if someone wants to say to me, show me an eye in the Qur'an that talks about Tawheed, I will, but even that eye that talks about Tawheed will still be open to debate between different schools in Islam. That's why you'll find in Ahlu Sunnah, the Mu'tazila emerged, the Asha'ira emerged, different books of creeds have to be written to try and postulate a position about a certain belief, and the different schools were differing over these beliefs. Also my understanding of Prophethood as well, my understanding of Prophethood comes from who? From Imam Ali ibn Abi Talib, Aleyhi salam. From Imam Al-Hassan, Aleyhi salam. From Imam Al-Hussein, Aleyhi salam. From the Imams of Ahlul Bayt, from their chosen companions. I'm not gonna come and take my understanding of the Seerah of Rasulullah, Aleyhi salam, Abu Huraira, who had an animosity towards Imam Ali ibn Abi Talib. I'm not gonna come and take it from Aisha, who fought Imam Ali ibn Abi Talib at the Battle of Jamel. I'm not gonna take it from Abdullah ibn Umar ibn Al-Khattab, who remained silent knowing that the grandson of Rasulullah, was about to be massacred and did not even say a single word to support him. My understanding of Nobuwa is not coming from just the family of Rasulullah, but it's coming from the mystical divine light that was in the loins of Ibrahim, Aleyhi salam, through Ismail, all the way towards the Holy Prophet, peace be upon him, his family. So let's get that first point clear, and it has to be made clear, that first epistemological point, which I think many people are not understanding, and that is that the source of knowledge in Shi'ism, if you want to ask me, show me this here, yes, I'll show you, but according to Imam al-Baqir, Imam al-Sadiq, you want me to show you according to Abu Huraira, and Anas bin Malik, and Aisha, and Abdullah ibn Umar, I have no interest in any of their works or in any of their narrations. Let's make that clear from the beginning. Secondly, a second epistemological issue, when it comes to the worldview of the school of Ahlul Bayt, rationality is as important, if not more important, than text. I found Allah subhanu wa ta'ala exists because the Quran said he exists. Does God exist because the Quran said he exists? Or is it because of what? Because of your rational inquiry, because you're reflecting on the creation that surrounds you. I look around me and I think, well, if that's the effect, there must be a cause. I look and I think to myself, something cannot come out of nothing. Therefore, you find that when I look at a particular principle of belief, Ahlus Sunnah saying to me, prove it to me, prove it to me from a worldview that is purely textual. I come from a school where the worldview places rationality at a fundamental level. Now, if you look at the Holy Quran, someone says, well, the Quran is saying, look at the text. I will look at the text. I cannot deny the naql in theology, but I'll also use the aql in the Quran in chapter 21 verse 22. Allah has already mentioned that he creates. Allah has mentioned that he is one. He's needless of the help of any, but likewise, Allah also tells us to reflect rationally. Do you agree? Yes. And the Quran does not Allah swt say in chapter 21 verse 22, if there were gods other than Allah swt, there would be corruption. If you say now there's more than one god rationally. If you say there's more than one god, what's the rational, what's the problems that will occur? Firstly, if one god makes the decision, does that mean the other god did not know about the decision? Does that mean that the other god was not capable of making that decision? Does that mean that that god that made the decision is more powerful than the other god that didn't make the decision? Does that mean that there's a god who's limited and is definable? And if he's limited and definable, cannot be called a god? The Quran wasn't just a work that told us look for textual analysis. It asks man to constantly be in a process of Therefore, when I come to an understanding of a concept in Shiazum, when someone tells me, prove this to me, prove this to me, prove this to me, show me it in Quran, show me it in hadith. I'm like wait, who told you Quran and hadith for me? Have the primary position when it comes to understanding a concept? I understood Allah SWT not with my eyes, with my intellect, do you agree? I haven't seen Allah SWT but rationally I led to a conclusion that Allah SWT even my belief in the Quran is not textual. Do you know why? Because it becomes circular. Do you believe the Quran is the word of God? Yes. Why? Because the Quran says it's the word of God. That's a circular argument. My belief in the Quran is the word of God. I believe that Allah SWT is just. He would not leave his creation without guidance. Therefore, he sometimes sends us guidance in the form of external guides, internal guides, an external guide, maybe for example a prophet or a book, and an internal guide, our intellect. Therefore, in the school of Al-Il-Bayt, when you come to an issue like Imamah and our youth today, when someone comes up to them and says, prove to me Imamah, prove to me Imamah, you reply by saying rationally, a man like the prophet, peace be upon him, his family, who would not leave his house without making sure that there's someone looking after it, who would not leave a city for a war without making sure there's someone who's protecting that city. Are you telling me that he would die and leave his whole ummah without having made clear who the leader is for them? Now, this is a rational argument. I can go towards text, but remember my first epistemological premise on Imamah and what is it? When I do go to the text, you have to take my sources as the interpreters of knowledge. And I'm not just bringing any Tom Dick and Harry. I'm not bringing ex pagans as the people who are giving me knowledge. I'm bringing to you the people who in their time, the Imams of other schools of fiqh revered them as the greatest men of knowledge. As in, when I say that I'm going to give you the interpretation of that ayah from Imam al-Sadiq, I don't think there's anyone out there who can deny the knowledge of Imam al-Sadiq, but I, when I take my understanding of an ayah of the Quran or of a hadith and someone now comes to me and says Sayyidina, prove to me Imamah, I'll say I'll prove to you Imamah from Imam al-Baqir and Imam al-Sadiq. I'm not going to use Anas, no Abu Huraira, no Abdullah bin Umar, no Aisha. I will not use them for the Quran. Nor will I use them for the seerah of Rasulullah sallallahu alayhi wa alayhi wa alayhi. I don't need them for the seerah of Rasulullah. The Quran and the seerah are fundamental because at the end of the day when we're trying to understand anything that took place during the life of Rasulullah, any of his statements, any of his announcements, as a guidance for his Ummah, we're going to need the Quran. And we're also going to need the seerah. Naturally, the seerah will allow us to understand his life, his biography, and we're going to need the books of Tafseer. But, and this is for every one of you listening out there, when someone comes and tells you that make sure that you focus on showing me from here, from here. First, I'll show you our rational conclusion on this issue. Allah gave us an aqil for a reason. Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala did not give a person an aqil so that that person sits back and does not use it at all. Rather, we use that aqil and also we look for the naqli evidences as well. You very beautifully explained the rational and textual understanding. So, I guess my next question would be, as you touched up on the Quran, where in the Quran would it be, you know, would there be pointers if it is obeyed just textual for us to better understand the issue or topic around the moment? Again, firstly, we said we've reached a rational understanding that in the same way, Hisham ibn al-Hakam explains this in a wonderful way, where he says, if Allah created the heart as a guide for the senses, he would not leave behind a leader as a guide for mankind. Yes. Rationally, we understand. Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala, there is no way that his Prophet who looks after the affairs of all this community would leave the world without making sure that his community know who their authority is, especially when you look at after he passed away and the number of schisms that occurred which will come to later. When you're coming to ask the question, I have many people asking this question. I want you to show me Imamah, show me it textually, show me it from the Quran. Which part of Imamah did you want to see from the Quran? It's like a person saying to me, show me the whole understanding of Prophethood in one eye of the Holy Quran. Which part of Prophethood do you want to understand? The mission of Prophets, the infallibility of Prophets, the knowledge of Prophets. Because I can't find you an eye on the Holy Quran which gives me the understanding of the whole of Prophethood in one. I could, there's no eye which says, Al-Nabi, Al-Alam, Al-Masum, Al-Ghay, there's no eye which tells me every single function or definition of Nabua. When I come there for understanding Imamah from the Holy Quran, which part of Imamah do you want me to explain to you? Imamah, as a position which a Prophet of Allah reached as his highest position, I can show you that. For example, in chapter 2, verse 1, 2, 4, when Allah Subhanahu Wa Ta'ala says to Nabi Ibrahim, after Nabi Ibrahim was a Nabi, Rasul reached the level of Khalil, Prophet, Messenger, friend of Allah Subhanahu Wa Ta'ala, high station, then Imamah. I have made you an Imam for the people. It shows that while he was a Nabi and a Rasul, Allah told him there's another station, a high station. And that is the station of being an Imam for the people as well, a leader for the people as well. One who's wholeheartedly sacrificing himself to guide people spiritually and politically and has the knowledge to be able to guide the people in all of their affairs. Now, that's one aspect of Imamah, that it's an extremely high station which the Prophets of Allah Subhanahu Wa Ta'ala, not all of them, but you found that for example, the Ulil Azim Prophets, they reached that station of Imamah. You see the Holy Prophet, Khatim al-Mursaleen, he is. Do we agree? Yes. No one's ever called him Khatim al-A'imah. The Seal of the Prophets, we've heard him being called the Seal of the Prophets many times. When it comes to, for example, something like the Seal of the Messengers, we've heard that as well. When it comes to, for example, the Seal of the Imams, you've never heard that. Sayyid al-A'imah, yes. But when it comes to Seal of the Imams, is that an indication that there were Imams after? Let's leave it at that. Firstly, you have Nabi Ibrahim reaching the high stage of Imamah. Number two, that Allah Subhanahu Wa Ta'ala chooses an Imam on earth. I'm not saying anything to do with the 12 Imams. I'm saying, Imamah, that Allah Subhanahu Wa Ta'ala designates an Imam, that it's a high position that prophets reach. Allah Subhanahu Wa Ta'ala in the Qur'an mentions, I'm appointing you as an Imam or Ibrahim for the people. Number three, likewise, those who's obedience is the same as the obedience of Rasul Allah, Sallallahu Alaihi Wasallam. And that is an extremely high level to reach. Many times in the Qur'an, we hear the ayah, Ati'a Allah wa Ati'a Rasul. O you who believe, obey Allah, obey the prophet. How many times? Number of times. Obey Allah, obey the prophet. Obey Allah, obey the prophet. In Surah 4, verse 59, Allah Subhanahu Wa Ta'ala asks that the obedience is extended. Hold on, Islam finishes with the Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him and his family. Islam ends with Rasul Allah, Sallallahu Alaihi Wasallam, but hold on. Islam ends with the Holy Prophet peace be upon his family. Why in Surah 4, verse 59 does Allah say, O you who believe, obey Allah, obey Rasul Allah, obey Allah, we all agree, we obey Allah, Sallallahu Alaihi Wasallam, obey the Prophet Muhammad peace be upon his family. Okay, Islam finishes with the Prophet Muhammad peace be upon his family. And obey those in authority from amongst you. Question, who explains to me this verse? What did we say earlier? Anas bin Malik, Abu Huraira, Aisha, Abdullah bin Umar, I have no interest in their explanation from now until someone puts me six feet under the ground. I will never, ever, ever, never have an interest in their explanation. My Prophet said to me that he leaves behind two weighty things, hold on to them and you'll never go astray. The Quran and my Ahl al-Bayt, do you agree? Of course. This is Sahih Muslim, it's not just in our works of literature. I'm quoting Muslim for polemical reasons, otherwise it's not authority for me. The Holy Prophet peace be upon his family, he says to me, hold on to the Quran and the Bayt. When I go to Surah 4 verse 59 of the Holy Quran, when Imam al-Baqir and Imam al-Sadaq, alaihi salam, explain this eye of the Quran, I don't think anyone can doubt their knowledge. Whether you are Sunni or Shia, there is no doubting the knowledge of Imam al-Baqir and Imam al-Sadaq, Sallallahu Alaihi Wasallam. They said that this refers to us, the Imams of al-Muhammad, Sallallahu Alaihi Wasallam. That Allah Subhanu Wa Ta'ala has made our obedience obligatory. In the same way as he made obligatory the obedience of Rasulullah Sallallahu Alaihi Wasallam, you find therefore that obeying and believing and following the Imams is a connection to obeying following and believing in the Holy Prophet peace be upon his family. And that obedience to them is obligatory. Now, in Shia thought, we believe the Prophet Muhammad is infallible. Allah Subhanu Wa Ta'ala infallible, do you agree? Now when we come towards whoever these group of people are, Allah Subhanu Wa Ta'ala holds them in a high position. Because these people Allah Subhanu Wa Ta'ala is making clear for all of us. Obedience to them is the same as obeying Rasulullah. That means they can never because I've made it obligatory upon you to blindly obey them. That's how high they are in my eyes, higher than the rabbis and the priests of the children of Israel, who Allah Subhanu Wa Ta'ala and Sallallahu Alaihi Wasallam says, why do you take your rabbis and your priests as lords besides God? Normally Allah Subhanu Wa Ta'ala does one blind imitation. Allah Subhanu Wa Ta'ala wants us to question the rabbi, to question the priests. But why is it when it comes to, for example, this particular group of people is saying obedience to them is the same as obedience to Rasulullah. And obedience to Rasulullah is obedience to me. And if you differ over something, you people who I've asked to obey me, obey Rasulullah and obey those in authority, you differ over something, return it back to Allah as Prophet. Someone says, why not return it back to Allah as Prophet and the Ulil Amr? Because the Ulil Amr can never contradict Rasulullah. So you return it back to Allah as Prophet, Ulil Amr according to Imam al-Baqir, Imam al-Sadaq, Alaykum al-Salam. And remember, I'm using my books. I don't need to use anyone else's books. I'm not going to use the random book of an Afghani hero, Persian hero, Turk hero, Palestinian hero here. I will use the books that are using Imam al-Baqir and are using Imam al-Sadaq, Alaykum al-Salam. They are the people who continue to protect the message of and the knowledge of Rasulullah sallallahu alaihi wa ala. Therefore, when someone comes and asks me this question that I want you to show me it textually, which part of Imam? Designation from Allah. We showed that Allah and the Quran says, The high lofty rank of Imam. We have shown. But people say, okay, but this is Ibrahim al-Salam. This is before Rasulullah. Okay, then why is there an eye of the Quran that speaks of a group of people who following them, obeying them is the same as obedience to Rasulullah sallallahu alaihi wa ala. That means that there are a group of people whose qualities and characteristics are the same. As Rasulullah and the only difference being that revelation seizes and ends with Rasulullah. They are the ones who continue to protect his message. That's why one definition given about Imam in the school of al-Bait. Is a definition in which Rasulullah talks to Imam al-Ali ibn al-Mitalib al-Salam. And he mentions they'll fight you over the interpretation of the Holy Quran and the way they fought me over the revelation of the Holy Quran. The Imam is therefore the protector of the interpretation of the Holy Quran in its true essence and its true meaning at its different layers. Imam al-Ali ibn al-Mitalib remains the only man in Islamic history. The only man in Islamic history. And please remember these points. The only man in the history of the rich Islam who his companions who later on sadly some of them went to a deviated belief. The only man of the companions who some of the companions called God could look at all others who were there. But none of them were described as having such greatness that some even worshiped them. Imam al-Ali ibn al-Mitalib remains the only personality who has ever said ask me before you lose me. I defy you to find me a companion of Rasulullah after he passed away who said ask me before you lose me. I'm aware of the secrets of the heavens as well as the secrets of the earth. I defy you find me one companion who people reached the level where they wanted to worship him where the Prophet peace be upon him says I fear if I praise you more they'll make you like Jesus son of Mary who himself says ask me before you lose me and who every Muslim in the world today loves. I can name you three four personalities who 300 million people despise. Despise they hate them. They hate them because of the way they treated the family of Rasulullah sallallahu alaihi waalih whether you're Sunni or you're Shi'a you still have to admire him in 2017. In other words when we are saying that those in authority Allah says obey Allah obey the Prophet obey Allah obey the Prophet obey Allah obey the Prophet in Sura 4 verse 59 wait let's extend this and I find it funny that some say well no the Ulil Amr according to Abu Huraira I'm not interested. The Ulil Amr according to Anas bin Malik doesn't interest me. You want to follow Abu Huraira you want to follow Anas bin Malik go and follow them don't come and ask me about my beliefs when the whole epistemological base of your beliefs is on a group of companions who you admire who I don't have any reverence for at all. Now when I say this I don't say it in a way where I want to belittle anyone from the Muslim community everyone's entitled to their conclusions the early Muslim community the Mu'tazilah said one thing the Asha'ara said one another thing the Ja'fariyah said another thing schools of Fiqh schools of law develop people we're debating each other but the epistemological worldview that I have I take my understanding of a concept like Imamah I've got the Ahlul Bayt to provide me with the best of answers. So I guess Allah Subhanahu wa ta'ala as you previously mentioned has never left this world without a guide and the Prophet as you previously also mentioned wouldn't leave us without a guide for us to strive for our salvation. Now given that these Imams are needed for our salvation why are they not explicitly named in the Qur'an? Well first and foremost how many prophets of Allah Subhanahu wa ta'ala made it into the Qur'an? Of the 124,000. Of 124,000 what is the Qur'an a day by day manual of what's going to happen in this world? 25 prophets made it out of 124,000. Do you believe in 124,000 prophets yourself? Of course. Do Muslims believe in 124,000 prophets? Of course. Where is it written in the Qur'an that we have to believe in 124,000 prophets? Because everyone keeps telling me why is their names not mentioned? Why is the number not mentioned? I bet that was one of your questions coming up. Why is the number not mentioned? Sorry 124,000 prophets. I've never seen one ayah that says there's 124,000 prophets. Have you? I haven't. But we all believe in 124,000 prophets don't we? I've seen 25 prophets mentioned in the Qur'an. I'm sure there's a lovely prophet in India. Where's he? I'm sure there was a nice prophet in China. Love to meet him. Nothing. It's all this group of Middle Eastern prophets. I find it interesting that even if their names had been mentioned, I wonder whether that could have been an excuse for later empires to start naming their kids with those names and say this was the person who was spoken about in the Qur'an. I also find it interesting whether when Nabi Nuh was a prophet, he had mentioned all the names of every single prophet to come at the end of time and say there is this many prophets after me. Here's all their names. Furthermore, the Holy Prophet peace be upon his family. Once I understand his seerah and remember not the seerah which Abu Hurairah or Anas or any of those wrote. Seerah of Imam al-Baq, Imam Sada, Prophet peace be upon his family has made it clear to his companions who his successor is and has made it clear. So it's not just a matter of someone saying to me show me an eye of the Qur'an for this issue. Believe you me there are certain principles that have to be believed in in other schools in Islam. They can't find an eye for them in the Qur'an. They go to the hadith. There are certain principles of theology that they take from seerah not from the Qur'an. So why is it that you can take a principle of theology from the seerah of Rasulullah and I can't take a principle in the names of the imams or the namur of the imams from the seerah of Rasulullah but my understanding of the seerah comes from Ahlul Bayt. So you mentioned obviously from the the narrations of Rasulullah that we can look at those narrations and derive imamah from there. So obviously we can use hadiths as proof. How can we use them as proof? How do we know if a hadith is authentic or not? Well once again when we're looking at our traditions we're looking at the imams of Ahlul Bayt and the imams of Ahlul Bayt. There's an interesting point. Do they ever say that they are the imams chosen by Allah swt? You see something interesting today when on when I hear people emailing me or read people's emails and they're saying to me people are asking us to prove imamah. The onus is not on me to prove my belief. Shiazim is a very early theology. I would say and I will not hesitate to say this and you can show this wherever you want on every link on YouTube wherever you want. Shiazim, the Khawarij and the Murjiah are the three earliest theologies in Islam. There was no such thing as Ahlul Sunnah wal Jama'a. I defy anyone. I defy anyone to show me that there's a clear crystallized creed, clear crystallized creed threesies that was then early Islam called Ahlul Sunnah wal Jama'a. If not you can show me 200 300 years later. I don't mind early Islam Ahlul Sunnah wal Jama'a. Shiazim was definitely an early theology. You can look at the early battles of Islam, the companions of Ali ibn Abi Talib are talking of the religion of Ali and that they are the Shiaz of Ali and that there is a distinct Shiai legal school in Kufa very early on who are distinguished by the fact they rub they wipe their feet they don't wash their feet who are distinguished by the fact that they read Qunut as a Mustahab act in Salah. Najm Haidar has a fantastic work on this. I recommend the viewers to read it where he looks at the early origins of the Shia in Kufa. It's available on Amazon. It's a fantastic piece which shows Shiazim as a very early theology. When I say an early theology I mean that the principles of Shia Islam were already entrenched early in the community. And Imam that is designated by Allah SWT that is infallible and all of these of course require definitions and that has knowledge inherited from Rasulullah sallallahu alayhi wa sallam as well as has access to inspiration from Allah SWT that can be seen as a distinct early school. The Khawarij are an earlier distinct theological school than Ahlu Sunnah and Jama'a. Ahlu Sunnah and Jama'a that you see today originally was a theological school called the Morjiah. That's prototype Ahlu Sunnah. Ahlu Sunnah in the early days Ahlu Sunnah and Jama'a there's no such early clear creed. There's still major debates concerning the predestination free will. There's debates about whether the Qur'an is eternal or the Qur'an is created about how much obedience you give to those in authority with the Umayyad Abbasid schisms. There's no Ahlu Sunnah and Jama'a early on. So when today someone's telling me come prove to me this belief I'll say why is the onus on me to prove I'm early and distinct you prove to me what your clear theological belief is. And even you'll begin to notice that many in Ahlu Sunnah and Jama'a will say to you that you Shi'a believe in this concept of Imamah that came after Rasulallah sallallahu alaihi wa alih died and that Islam had been completed with Rasulallah sallallahu alaihi wa alih even though we believe that Rasulallah sallallahu alaihi wa alih had already spoken of the imams before he died therefore his imam it does not become a political issue it's a theological clear belief but they say to us that those who come after Rasulallah sallallahu alaihi wa alih there's no such thing as taking them as authority please understand this delicate point after Rasulallah died you don't take anyone's authority you take Rasulallah sallallahu alaihi wa alih and the Quran I ask I want to tell you something I'm Sunni I'm Sunni today I'm Sunni I believe in Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala the prophets the Quran the angels and the day of judgment am I Sunni yes I am yes but I don't agree with the first caliph the second caliph the third caliph and Aisha because of their behavior towards Rasulallah am I still Sunni no if Islam is believing in Allah the prophet the day of judgment the Quran the angels is what makes me a Muslim and a member of Ahla Sunnah that no one should be concerned what my opinions are about the Sahaba or Aisha because they all came after Rasulallah sallallahu alaihi wa alih in their authority positions as caliphs or the battles that they may have led but you'll find today I'm told that for you to be Sunni you also have to show full admiration to the concept of Adalet al Sahaba the complete decency of the Sahaba and must show ultimate respect and never question the wives of Rasulallah sallallahu alaihi wa alih to a level where you dissociate from them now I thought you said after Rasulallah died there is no more authority and no more need to have any more clear lines about belief now you're telling me that I believe in 12 Imams who you say you have a problem with because of their infallibility you've made a hundred thousand Sahaba infallible and I can't say a single word about them in the moment I do say anything about them they say you don't respect the Sahaba whatsoever if Islam is completed with a belief in Allah in the prophets in the Qur'an in the day of judgment and in the angels and we don't debate anything after that that's all you need to be a Muslim yes if that is all according to Ahlu Sunnah and Jama'a that means that I can be Sunni by dissociating from the Sahaba and from Aisha the wife of Rasulallah sallallahu alaihi wa alih straight away someone says no you can't you must hold on hold on you said to me Islam finished with Rasulallah why are you concerned about the wives and the Sahaba part of the Ahlu Sunnah and Jama'a as creed later became and this is what's interesting they say imam was never part of the original creed of Islam ultimate decency of Sahaba was part of the original creed of the religion of Islam I defy anyone to show me an eye of the Qur'an because they very textual I'm from a rational school they're very textual I defy anyone to show me an eye of the Qur'an says every single Sahabi never was affected by hypocrisy never ran away from a battlefield never raised this voice above the voice of Rasulallah never walked away from Salat al-Jum'a never thought twice about going on jihad I defy anyone to show me well I guarantee you no one could show me a clique but you have to believe in it so when you have a problem with me about imam saying what's this idea and believe that you guys have about imam and so on you give one impression to the people that enough for them is to believe in Allah the prophet the angels the day of judgment the moment anyone touches a question mark on what came after Rasulallah you suddenly have made that part of your creed and that's why read any of the creeds of Ahlu Sunnah and Jama'a when I see these people trying to bully some of our youth by trying to say to them that prove to me this prove to me that let me prove to me this and that look at your own creed firstly your creed is not early secondly not only is it not early it comes later on with the new mishmash of ideas where some schools believe in predestination others believe in free will there's bickering and disputes Ashari was a Mu'tazali he now became informed the school called the Ashara different legal schools Abu Hanifa Malik Ashafi Ahmed bin Hanbal with God knows how many legal differences and on top of that there's a new conception called the ultimate decency of the Sahaba of Rasulallah what is it you must revere the first four Khulafa and then the other six who are granted paradise and you must revere all of the Sahaba and the muhajjahs and so on hold on where did that come in if you're telling me Imam is something that has come post where did this come in the ultimate decency of the Sahab therefore when you come and question 12 of my imams don't forget that you made a hundred thousand people infallible with no one allowed to say a single word about them and don't forget that that came in your creed in the likes of tahawi and others which came with later creeds wasn't an early creed so please for those who are out there don't get bullied into no position where they tell you that you know what proved this proved this the onus is on you to prove that you were a school in early Islam for me I have a clear distinct school in early Islam even beautifully once you've heard from your lectures learn from you when you've said again going back to the thought of rationality you know how can one rightly guided person go to war against another rightly guided person and where's the logic in these two rightly guided people fighting each other's out of the two who is rightly guided in the end thank you very much say adana dear respected brothers and sisters inshallah will be taking a short break for the second part of the show will be taking your questions live you can get in contact with us via the number on the screen or sending in your message via facebook or whatsapp we look to join you soon again thank you very much malaykum dear respected brothers and sisters welcome to part two of live in london with dr said amman akshwani where tonight we're looking at the topic of imam it inshallah say adana following on from our conversation before the break i'm really interested to know what the difference is between messengers and imams well the clear difference is on the matter of revelation these messengers of allah subhanahu wa ta'ala would receive revelations with the angel gabriel for example visiting them with the revelation from the lord of the heavens and the earth but that stops with the holy prophet muhammad peace be upon him and his family does that mean an angel cannot come and visit an imam of course they can but revelation has ended with rasul allah sallallahu alaihi wa ala an angel like jibrail can come and visit an imam if someone says angels only visit prophets no they don't in the quran the angel gabriel visited mariam alayhi as-salam likewise you find that in the famous hadith ali you are to me like erin was to moses except that there is no prophet after me so ali ibn abay talib had that distinct closeness to rasul allah sallallahu alaihi wa ala except that there is no prophet the seal of the prophets is the prophet muhammad peace be upon him his family the revelation ends with him so i guess in she etiology especially is is a prophet higher than imam or vice versa there are a number of opinions on this issue but i can definitely rationally and textually understand that the imams are higher than all the prophets except the prophet muhammad peace be upon him his family now someone out there is going to point out a couple of differing opinions and i can definitely agree but i can also see rationally as well as textually why this can be understood let me explain first and foremost you find these prophets especially let's say the ulil azam prophets nooh ibrahim moussa isa all of them are great prophets of allah subhanAllah they're great messengers do you agree their sharia has now void of course the prophet is come i can only use something from their sharia if rasul allah sallallahu alaihi wa alaihi points to it while they are great messengers their sharia has ended allah subhanahu wa ta'ala decided that the man who's sharia will be the final sharia for mankind would be rasul allah sallallahu alaihi wa alaihi that means those designated to be his successes out of all of allah's creations must be the greatest of humans after that man because allah subhanahu wa ta'ala found them as being worthy to be the protectors of the interpretation of that message the way rasul allah was worthy and chosen to be the protector of the revelation of that message that's from a rational understanding if you look at different traditions you'll find it's not unusual for the holy prophet peace be upon him to have mentioned the ulama of my umma are greater than the prophets of the children of israel prophets are great the ulama of my umma the scholars of my umma are greater than the children uh prophets of the children of israel now that refers to the imams of ahlul bayt alaym as-salam thirdly we have traditions which mention that the mahdi will lead nabi isa prophet jesus alayhi as-salam and pray it's not bringing down from nabi isa's position nabi isa without him you cannot understand god nabi isa is an arch prophet of god his sharia is now seized to exist when he comes an imam will lead him in pray pray therefore there are different ways in which a person is able to understand why imamat is higher than prophethood except rasul allah sallallahu imam aliyah says i'm one of the slaves of the slaves of muhammad sallallahu alaihi wa ala rasul allah sallallahu alaihi wa ala none is like him he is the greatest creation of god however he himself says in many traditions mi and ali are created from one light ali is the nefs of muhammad sallallahu alaihi wa ala as per the eye of mubahela and the incident of mubahela so therefore for someone to say that the imams are higher than the prophets except rasul allah sallallahu alaihi wa ala is not something unusual and the imams point to this imam al baqr alayhi as-salam remember we said we want to discuss imam and we discuss from the beacons of knowledge not from ex pagans and bedwins imam al baqr alayhi as-salam mentions wonderfully in his discussion of asif bin barkhia the successor of nebi sulayman who was able to bring the queen of she was thrown in in solar 27 from verse 30 onwards now you know if i ask you now i've forgotten my laptop in sydney or australia i forgot my laptop in new york can you just i want it here right now you're gonna say to me say idina let's go to ups let's go to a courier service fedex three days two days emergency imagine one of the jinn replies to sulayman alayhi as-salam by saying i'll bring i'll bring it to you before you get up from your place let's say he used to go to work let's say from 9 a.m to 12 midday he says to me before you get up i'll bring it to you then there was someone who had some knowledge of the book some knowledge bestowed upon him from Allah swt who said i'll bring it to you before you blink it was there asif bin barkhia is a successor awasri of a prophet of god and he was able to bring the queen of she was thrown before sulayman blinked imam al baqir mentions if allah's knowledge is divided into 73 portions one out one out of those 72 out of the 73 is given to asif bin barkhia he says the imams of al muhammad have been given 72 out of 73 portions of the knowledge of given the knowledge of an imam is not independent it's dependent on what allah decides to give when today someone asks me your imams have knowledge of the unseen i say well do you agree prophets have knowledge of the unseen surah 72 verse 26 to 27 the Quran says that allah has knowledge of the unseen he doesn't reveal it to anyone except of his messengers who he chooses do you agree that allah decides to give knowledge of the unseen to some of his messengers likewise in ayat al kursi there are chosen people allah decides to give some knowledge to and imam cannot have independently he has to rely on what allah decides to give but imam al baqir and imam al sadiq al al salam mentioned 72 portions given to al muhammad out of the 73 so therefore when you're coming to understand the position of the imams of al baqir they themselves attest to their position another thing that we hear often that the imams are given or status that they have attained is this theory of infallibility or they're smart would you mind elaborating a little bit on what infallibility actually is what it means that they have it's different definitions of infallibility firstly again let's go back to rational aqli and naqli the fact that allah has ordered me to obey them rationally means they must be infallible because i can't obey the sinner of course secondly the fact that allah put them in that position to protect the message of rasul allah must mean that they're infallible in the area of tabligh not just the area of sin they are infallible in the sense that they like us can commit sin but choose not to the qudra is there they're not robots walking on the earth they can commit a sin but they choose not to remember imams zayn al abideen alayhi salam someone says to him when you say that you are maqsoom when you say you're infallible again the ahlul bayt make it clear that they are maqsoom when you say that you are maqsoom does that mean that you can't commit a sin he says no we can but we choose not to we can but we wouldn't say what do you mean he said if i asked you to walk in the street naked can you he said yes he said would you he said no he said why he said because the people that's watching us he goes likewise with us we can commit a sin but we choose not to because of the respect of the lord that's watching us infallibility according to the definitions given by the the theologians such as sheikh al mufid they talk of a grace which god pours upon his servant who's already displayed a wonderful obedience to him this this this grace is a grace which purifies them as well as ensures they'll never order you to commit wrong or to commit a mistake because when i have to obey that person in authority it is upon the idea that that person is always a source of guidance to Allah why don't i obey someone who's fallible because whatever he says to me i'll still say i'm gonna hear someone else's opinion true today with a scholar in fiqh even if he gives you an opinion don't you say well let me read what other maraja say on the issue what other scholars say on the issue we don't want a salsul to occur where i jump from person to person to person to person that person Allah has designated the beauty of his designation is that i know number one when he orders something that order comes from the knowledge of prophets before him and the mystical light of ibrahim bestowed in his loins and number two that i know anyone who fights him on any day i know where haqq will always be i won't be confused saying salah is good with ali and food is good with muawiya and the middle is good for whoever no i'll know where i'm heading i know where i am therefore infallibility is that the imams of al-bayt rationally because they are to be obeyed means they have to be error free likewise we recognize they will never ever because they are to be obeyed order us to do anything bad it's always towards good otherwise i can pick someone else their opinion matters as much as yours but when i know you are maasoon i know that you can only give me good you can never give me your opinion how many times you hear the line in islamic history he done his itch they had well he made a mistake so they made up this new theory that if you do itch they had make a mistake you get one reward if you do itch they had and you're right get double the reward let's say no we say that the imam of ahl albayt alayhi was-salam there's no such thing as them coming out with their own opinions their opinion is the opinion of rasul allah sallallahu alaihi wa alaihi was-salam and hence why their obedience is the obedience of rasul allah sallallahu alaihi wa alaihi therefore when it comes to infallibility two areas infallible in the way they disseminate knowledge and the message infallible away from any of the impurities that can affect me and you so i guess given their status their infallibility their levels of knowledge a lot of them talked about the mehdi that you touched upon earlier we believe in the ghaybat and also the mehdi ajiallahu alaihi wa alaihi wa alaihi wa alaihi wa alaihi wa alaihi wa alaihi what makes our beliefs right as opposed to the other sects who also believe in the same or similar things well i think first let's define imamah and we defined imamah by saying those who are designated by allah those who have the greatest ilm of all the people that surround them and what else did we say and we also spoke about those who are infallible now i can't disagree with you there were others who came and said that they have a mehdi others who spoke of a ghaybat but once we've defined imamah then we can begin to see that those who you've claimed are this savior or guide for mankind compare him to the imam who was living in his time and see the difference in the knowledge between them see who came out to be a fraud and who came out to be truly a person of knowledge compare who came out to be a sinner and who's the one who had the best of reputations so in other words i can't come to other schools and say that i'm forcing you to believe in my mehdi not yours not but when i come to define imamah and when i come to the areas of knowledge and infallibility the imams of ahlul bayt there is not a blemish on their book from other schools of islam if you look at other schools of islam and contemporaries of the imams of ahlul bayt you'll find that they revere the imams a reverence where they talk of their physical and spiritual purity at all times when it comes therefore towards the ghaybat as well we have our clear cut evidences of the ghaybat of the 12th imam of al muhammad and it's interesting earlier you are asking me about 12 you find in sunni books sunni famous texts such as bukhari and muslim there will be 12 after me whether they are amirs or naqibs or khaleeps that number 12 is often repeated it's repeated that moses had 12 disciples jesus had 12 disciples and i find it so interesting when people say to us name us you know prove to us your imams i told them in 1400 years of your history give me the names of 12 good leaders you who are asking me about my 12 imams give me the name of 12 good leaders in 1400 years wallah they always struggle up to about six or seven then they don't know what they're talking about after all they stop bringing wishy washy names from here and there so with us you could find that subhanallah even towards the time of the birth of the 12th of al muhammad they're putting his parents on the house arrest in samarra when the abbah says move the government to samarra already there is an understanding of a theological group called the rafidah in the time of imam al hadya alayhi salam so there are many different ways in which we can prove the concept of occultation the concept of the mehdi as well as the birth of the mehdi my former supervisor for my master's degree dr jasim hussein has written a wonderful work the occultation of the 12th imam where he shows the belief in the mehdi was not something that came after the 12th imam but rather from the sixth imam onwards there's already discussions about an underground movement preparing for the birth of the mehdi yeah so given we've gone into this much detail around imam at their infallibility characteristics the rational textual proofs it leaves me wondering if a person can be muslim if they don't believe in imam at what would your opinion be on that syedna well if you're looking quranically a muslim at its most basic basic level is he who believes in god on the day of judgment that's of those who submit to allah then after that there are verses about those who believe in god the prophets and the day of judgment and that's why when you're coming towards any muslim in shia thought we say anyone who utters the phrase la ilaha allallah muhammad rasha anyone who utters that phrase that's it he is a muslim you want to talk about traversing the heights and the path to reaching the levels of iman and the higher levels of iman where you recognize the path of those who are the awliya of allah that would require a person to hold on to the quran and the ahlul bayt aleem as the taqalain now there are people out there who know about imamah and decide to reject it their destiny is with allah subhanahu wa ta'ala there are others who don't know a single thing about imamah believe you mean there are people out there who don't know who imam jaafar al-sadaq is they don't know who imam al-radaq is i'm a member some ahlul sunnah who say they love ahlul bayt ask him who's imam al-jawad he doesn't know his conception of ahlul bayt is ali fatima hassan hussein and that's it then after that imam al-jawad imam al-hadi hasn't got a clue who these people are there are many out there who do not know about the greatness of the imams of al-muhammad in their position and there are many who assume when they say to us prove to us imamah imam ali bina bi talib when he talks about himself you read in al kafir the way imam ali alaihi salam describes his position as imam or the way imam al-sadaq describes his position as imam there are many out there who don't know any of this there are many who are hanafi they don't know imam al-sadaq was the teacher of abu hanifa there are many who are malik you don't know anything about malik's praise of imam al-sadaq there are many who know ahmen bin hambal but don't know anything about imam al-radaa al-salaam so basis to be a muslim believing in Allah believing in the prophet the day of judgment for example is basic prerequisite but to reach complete imam you find many of the traditions of the ahl al-bayt al-salaam mentioning pray as much as you want but without understanding our authority a person will never understand the real essence of worship and there are many traditions along those lines believe you me the school of ahl al-bayt you want to find spirituality law theology and ethics shia islam if you want a political mishmash of ideas that develops into theological and legal schools of random individuals there are other schools of islam you could follow guess going on the topic of following we have a lot of different sects that have arisen some believe in four imams some believe in six eight seven twelve eleven ten etc did this arise from companions of the imams at the time not knowing who the imam actually was or there's sort of different reasons for these i think there's many different reasons i think i think what's firstly clear sheikh al-mufid and the irshad has some wonderful narrations clearly highlighting that there are companions of imams who straight away know who the imam who is designated after that imam is so for those out there to say a lot of the companions didn't know sheikh al-mufid and the irshad mentions these people would come to visit the imam and they would come and recognize him as the imam who was designated by Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala and also mentioned to them by the previous imam that was really normally what most were privy to be able to achieve secondly there are those who some say didn't know the imam their time well in some cases they were far away from where that imam was who was now the imam of their time and were not able to go and visit him or to talk to him in other cases they may have died before they were able to see the imam of their time other cases there is a personal reasons why people decide to follow an imam different from the one who's designated some are financial reasons others are reasons related to power there's a whole host of reasons fourthly sometimes the amount of oppression that that particular imam is facing means he cannot openly tell the people who his successor is because whoever that person the people find that is the successor will be beheaded i remember imam assad al-salaam when he lists five names remember mansoor al-dawaniq asks his governor in madina look for the will of ja'far al-sadaq find out who's his successor is and behead him imam assad al-sadaq came he took his will when he read the names on the world the first one mansoor al-dawaniq the caliph the second one the governor third one musul qadim fourth one abdallah the fifth one you know they mentioned a number of names so you find that it was difficult for the imam to openly come out but does that mean because he's not openly come out and said who the imam is after him does that mean that the people don't know just because it's not being public no there are companions who clearly know there are those close confidants who clearly know who the imam is who has been designated yes i'm not going to deny there are some who may have believed in a concept of imama where the eldest son is the one who's meant to be the imam and therefore they sided towards that direction what's clear is that in that early muslim community the idea that authority belongs to ahl al-bayt can be seen in the masses you know the abbasid's use that slogan to get into power it highlights that people recognize authority belongs to al-muhammad salawatullahi wa salamu alayhimah after they've tried every single possible method of authority you know they tried with the saqeefa election they tried with abu bakr choosing umma they tried with the shura of six people for athman they tried with the whole community coming together they tried with an umayyad coup they done abbasid revolution people tried absolutely everything and one thing they concluded is authority belongs to ahl al-bayt alayhimah so there's many different reasons why for example there may be some who went towards a particular direction and that in itself requires a lot more analysis inshaAllah sayedna moving on to some of our questions from tonight uh this one is from brother jaffer he says he's been for a shia for almost four years living in syria uh he wants to ask how could he make his family shia because at the moment they are sufi tariqati if they're sufi tariqati then they have an inclination towards ahl al-bayt alayhimah salam because virtually 99.9 percent of sufi's out there will one way or the other return back towards the ahl al-bayt and imam al-ibnabi talib alayhimah salam um so therefore they already have a connection to the ahl al-bayt alayhimah salam as long as they hold on to the teachings of the ahl al-bayt and the quran that inshaAllah will be something which is a sufficient step towards them gaining more and more knowledge about the ahl al-bayt alayhimah salam inshaAllah another question sayedna from kamil from the reunion island can we consider that to some extent we are superior to imams in general as they led a rightful life but they've seen the other side to for example jahannam jannah there is no place in their minds for doubt but as for us we try to lead as much of a rightful life as we can without any kind of actual proof apart from our inner faith well it's certainly a very high position for a person to reach where they believe in the imam of their time without having actually met him that's a very high position to reach imam as-salaf says the companions of the mehdi are the greatest because they believe in an imam who they cannot see in contrast to others who had met the imams of their time but when it comes to the imam at that time one word which is always repeated in theological texts about especially in the in the context of infallibility is the word qudra the imam is not a robot when the six-month-old baby dies in the arms of imam al-hussain he feels the same pain that you feel when he sees his brother's arms cut he feels what you feel therefore don't imagine him as a robot on the tenth of muharam and don't imagine them as robots when it comes to their infallibility the qudra is there to sin but that's unbelievable cognizance of Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala is what keeps them away from that sin so when a person says are we superior can we be seen superior never never and especially what the imams of Ahlul Bayt knew and what they held on to in the midst of adversity midst of oppression it's something for all of us to look up to inshallah so now we have a caller on the line as-salamu alaykum respected caller please could you share your name and where you're calling from as-salamu alaykum yes brother thank you for the very informative lecture about imam al-night my question is when we discuss our debate with Sunnis about imam at there is strong evidence about imam at in hadith kisa as you mentioned earlier that sum sum ayah in the Quran refer to imam at can you please give us some ayah or ayahs that refers clearly or indicates clearly about imam at after imam Hussain alayhi salam thank you very much once again my dear brother we said that those who are telling you show me a clear ayah in the Quran we said that the first basis we always use to understand imam at is a rational base secondly we showed the clear ayah in the Quran surah 4 verse number 59 and that surah 4 verse 59 says obey Allah obey the prophet and obey those in authority from you i don't think those in authority from you gives us an indication that that just goes up to imam al hussain alayhi salam and that's why you find the imams of ahlul bayt making it clear that this refers to us the 12 imams of al muhammad salawatullah was salam alayhi salam you can find this in the tafsir works where the imams refer to this particular ayah likewise as we mentioned you find that let's say of the usul 400 the 400 usul of imam al sadaq alayhi salam you still have about between 13 to 16 that are manuscripts that exist in in iran currently and there is a mention there of the students of imam al sadaq discussing the 12 12 imams of ahlul bayt alayhi salam so when someone's asking me show me that ayah from the Quran yes if you want the ayah with the tafsir then the tafsir of ulil am refers to the 12 imams of ahlul bayt alayhi salam again as we mentioned when it comes to the number 12 firstly the 12ers are the only school that are able to name 12 other schools stop at four some go to seven others mentioned six khulafa no one's able to get to 12 and secondly in the books of ahlu sunnah it says there will be 12 khulafa after me so therefore it's not only referring to us there are also evidences within the books of ahlu sunnah that are mentioned inshaAllah thank you very much Sayyidina another question Sayyidina is a lot of people are asking what is willaya and what is imamat are they both the same thing is there a difference between the two do you need to have one and not the other or do you need to have both or what's the situation there if you Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala we find that refers to himself as the guardian of all the believers that is what we know as willaya am many times we've recited the ayah Allah wa li'l ladina aminu yukhrijuhum minal dolumat ilal noor Allah has the guardian of those who believe he takes them out of the depths of darkness into light there are many darknesses hence dolumat but noor is one this willaya this guardianship of Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala in its general concept can be seen in such an ayah but then from amma it becomes khalsa how does it become khalsa Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala decides that my guardianship of creation i'm going to give it to some of my chosen creation so in surah 5 verse 55 Allah says Allah is your guardian and his Rasul now that guardianship which originally is with Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala now is transferred to to the prophet doesn't stop there your guardian is Allah you o people your guardians Allah and his prophet and those who believe but can't be all those who believe because he's saying in amawali you come your guardian the come here referring to your guardian is all of you that doesn't make any sense it must be one particular for example person who's doing something those who establish salah and give away zakat while they are in state of again i don't need to go to anas so abu hurayro any of these people telling me about that's not the time to say i go to imam al bagh imam al sanak saying this ayah is when Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala transferred his guardianship of all of the creation to the prophet and to imam therefore when you're looking at wilaya and imam it is the guardianship of the creation of Allah from a designation of Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala that is the meaning of wilaya sometimes you hear the word wilaya and wilaya wilaya is that bond of affection and camaraderie that exists between the lovers of ahlul bayt alayhi salam wilaya is Allah's general authority which is now transferred to the prophet and to the imams of ahlul bayt alayhim as-salam we have another caller on the line said as-salamu alaykum as-salamu alaykum can you hear us we've lost the connection said another question that's come in is this person's written i've heard a rumor that Allah chose the prophet by mistake and he was meant to choose ali and this is a common belief amongst your sect can you please shed some light on this yes the biggest load of nonsense i've ever heard but it's been spread very well so whoever's the you know the propaganda machine has really done well um i got a feeling which country has made sure that it's spread everywhere but what it is is that people say that you know we believe that gabriel made a mistake he went to the wrong person he should have gone to ali if ever there was a group who believed in such a thing let's say zero point zero zero zero zero one percent of them existed in some medieval century uh you know on let's say the mountains of a particular part of europe or something they certainly have got nothing to do with she i believe you want our beliefs go to sheikh al-sadoor go to sheikh al-mufid go to al-lama al-hali khawaja nasud din al-tusya amongst others who have discussed what is the meaning of the position of the imams of ahl al-bayt al-salaam within theological texts another question here from brother amir is in london it says if islam was completed during the time of prophet muhammad then what is the role of the imams afterwards great question the role of the imam is to provide protection for the interpretation of the quran in the way rasul allah sallallahu alaihi waalih provided protection for the revelation of the holy quran the knowledge of the internal and the external the inner and the deeper meaning of the quran the abrogations and the abrogated the reasons for revelation when they were revealed why they were revealed towards whom they were revealed where they were revealed all of this knowledge is with ahl al-bayt al-salaam and that's the role of the imams to protect the message of the religion islam and the knowledge that was left behind by rasul allah sallallahu alaihi waalihi why would the holy prophet say i'm the city of knowledge and ali is its gate why would the holy prophet psb upon his family in his farewell sermon at qadir and sahih muslim it clearly mentions the word qadir you can go on google and search it sahih muslim in the search engine type qadir you will see that the prophet stopped at a valley called khum that's what's mentioned the valley called khum and oasis is qadir the valley is called khum if you type khum in sahih muslim and he said ali behind for you the quran and my al-bayt the quran being next to the ahl al-bayt is interesting the quran is the word of god written ahl al-bayt are the walking word of allah subhanahu wa ta'ala the quran is god's chosen book ahl al-bayt are god's chosen leaders for mankind the quran is infallible al muhammad are infallible so the imam his role is to protect the legacy of rasul allah sallallahu alaihi wa alihi wasallam is he rasul allah the only prophet who had 12 no moses had 12 jesus had 12 and with the it being the final sharia it's such a young religion rationally why with allah subhanahu wa ta'ala not have 12 who protect that message inshallah i guess the final question selfishly from myself given we're on the topic of imam to end the show with we have a responsibility towards our 12th imam may Allah fasten his reappearance what is the best way in your opinion that we can get to know him or aid him or serve him what are some things we can do to become closer with him and develop that connection with him so that he can become our salvation i think a couple of things firstly in the ziyar of the imam we say as-salamu alayka ya sahaba as-salamu alayka our relationship with the holy quran and that's why we'll truly know the imam of our time and not die the death of a jihad secondly you want to be with the 12th imam trying to read about his father and grandfather there are many who've neglected imam al hadya and imam al askari so let's try and build a relationship with them inshallah inshallah as always thank you very much for your time thank you my pleasure thank you very insightful evening once again thank you for this thank you to our respected brothers and sisters for tuning in inshallah our next show will be on monday night beginning again at the time of 10 p.m for the first part of the show we'll be discussing another chosen topic and for the second part we'll be answering your questions be it via the live call or facebook or whatsapp as always please keep us in your dars we look forward to seeing you soon thank you very much as-salamu alaykum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuh