 What then would you say, for the sake of clarity, on this matter, you completely left the NDC? Don't you regret that some of your former colleagues now are in government with something that you started and now you've just left it along the way? You've produced ministers through the NDC allies. In life, there is what we call destiny and fate. And not everything that glitter is gold. Being in government is one thing, but being in a wrong government and the performing government is another thing. I wouldn't have wanted to be part of this failure that we are seeing now. This government which tells you something today and does the opposite. For instance, they were saying that if we are stealing on the fertilizer, because they were buying they were buying fertilizer from the suppliers at $1,000 per ton. Today, they've given a contract to supply a fertilizer to the government from a non-businessman at $1,400 per ton. When they were saying when we come we'll make sure that we lower the costs from $1,000 to probably about $700 per ton. Probably that's the market price. Today, the same people. What is the current market price of fertilizer on the international market? They gave another contract some period to nitrogen chemicals to supply at $1,000. Then they gave this other businessman who is connected to them at $1,400. What do you call that? Probably the hidden cost. What hidden cost? They promised the people cost. But when we come, they said the $1,000 is world beyond. But Dr. Kambuli, just like President Lume used to say, when corruption allegations are leveled, show me the evidence. This is the evidence. Why isn't this being reported? This is the evidence. You see, this idea of Zambians saying when you have evidence like this, unless you report, that's when people will be followed up, should come to an end. It is all over social media. It is all over public domain. It is the duty of the anti-corruption commission to investigate all allegations. They should not wait until somebody reports. Look, on the supply of fuel. A man who went and bought, is it a nectar or a jacket for the president at $2.5 million? Two months later, he's given a contract to supply fuel and oil. All those are unsubstantiated allegations. Whether a man buys a tie or a jacket, just like you. My dear brother. Just hold on. Just like if he does business, should he, should he not participate in doing business with government? My dear brother, these are things that we should avoid. But if he's a Zambian and he's not the capacity to supply fuel, what is wrong with that honorable comment? How about the other people who are not picked? What is wrong with that? How about the other people who are not picked, who are given the same protection? But just like in your party PF, there were friends of the party supplying fuel, friends of the party supplying fertilizer. That is why the PF is out of government. And because we are out of government, we are now reflecting on these mistakes. And we are telling the people of Zambia, we are sorry about these things that were done wrongly. And once entrusted with the power then, these things will never happen. But our friends have started doing exactly what they were condemning. This is the most unfortunate part. If you are saying these things will never happen, how will they not happen if you are maintaining the same crop of leaders, if you are maintaining the same old ways of doing things as the PF? Because we haven't seen you rebrand. What we are seeing is just a collective number of people grouping together against arrests, but it's still the same old ranking. We are still rebranding. We have not finished the rebranding coaster for you to say that we are seeing the same people. We are going to the convention. A new leadership will be ushered into office. Wait until that is done for you to say that we are seeing the same people and you are not changing the ways. It's too early to say that. You say it's too early for us to judge the PF to have rebranded. Is it not too early to judge the PF? We have not rebranded. Isn't it too early to judge that you drive MAMS into government? Do you need five months for one to tell you that selling a fertilizer to the government at $1,000 is theft, is corruption? Which hasn't been proven? It has been proven. Unless someone is convicted before a competent court of jurisdiction, it will still be social media banter. If nobody reported it, it will still be social media banter. I think this is the problem that we have. What has been proven is that somebody has stashed $65 million in the house and they have forfeited it to the state. That is proof. But as long as it's social media banter, we cannot accept it as daylight corruption. Unless somebody is convicted. Costa, the problem that you the media have, you are so scared of governments in power. And I'm not here for you to ask me whether it has been proved or not. It is a fact that Mr. Janguru has been given a contract to supply fertilizer at $1,400 per dollar. $1,400 per ton. When they were condemning PF. I've asked you, what is the international price on the market? I've told you also to say that in the same period, they have given a contract to nitrogen chemicals to supply at $1,000. Why should they give a parastatum to supply at $1,000 and give a private company? They should not have gone to him. They should have bought. I'll give you another example. Listen, you are saying if it is importing and they are associated costs, they should have not gone to buy from him. They should have bought but from nitrogen chemicals who are $1,000. When you were the Dr. Kamwili, we knew who stood for the people. For example, over the fact that I have always let me justify my statements. During the far tender scandal, during the ambulance scandal, the Dr. Kamwili, we know would produce evidence of how much at Toyota an ambulance or a truck would cost what the international price. So that's the Dr. Kamwili. We know who would give us comparison. So why don't you go deeper to be the Dr. Kamwili? When we are coming for an interview, you don't tell me what questions you are going to ask. So how would I have known that the issue of the fertilization issue, who's going to be in the public domain? It has only come. I have proved it myself. I have proved it. I have asked the people who are in charge of buying fertilizer, administer of agriculture and they have confirmed. So what I'm trying to say is that I don't want to be part of a government like UPND, which you turn on almost everything that they said. They promised people that we're going to reduce fuel. When I was going round, I told the people there's no way that UPND can come and reduce and I gave reasons. I said, look, we are selling fuel in Zambia at 17 kwacha per liter. The reason is that there are subsidies there. We've suspended taxes. We suspended the three kwacha fuel levy in order for us to reach at 17 kwacha. Above all, what we've been doing is that the three kwacha fuel levy that we're collecting was being put aside such that when the international prices come, then we take that three kwacha to subsidize. But for UPND to say, no, we'll do this, we'll do this, and the pump price will come to 12 kwacha. I said this is practically possible. Whether PA for UPND was intainable for this country in the state of the economy to put subsidies on fuel and electricity, was it tenable? To be a good leader, to be a good leader, you must also take into account the living standards of the poor people. Why do we subsidize is to cushion the poor people. Today, the poor people without giving them any facility that will cushion this increment are now suffering more than they were suffering before the price. That is why we bought that three kwacha fuel levy such that when the price goes up, we can use the three kwacha to cushion the poor people. But I'm asking you, was this tenable, especially that Zambia was sitting at a $14 billion external debt and a 20 billion kwacha internal debt to retirees and pensioners? So these subsidies, where was government going to continue getting this money? Because you know for a fact, as a seasoned governor, yourself having sat in parliament, having been minister, but in the last two budget cycles on a Bocambuili, 90% of whatever income we're getting was going towards emoruments as well as debt financing. That's what I'm talking about. So subsidies were not going to be tenable? No, no, no, no, no. We ran these subsidies on fuel. Do you know for how long the price of fuel was stable under PF? Do you know for how long the price of fuel was stable under PF without increment? For three years and the poor people were cushioned. But what happened to debt? I told you that when all is well, the price is good, we used to collect three, is it three kwacha per liter to put aside in a sinking fund such that when the price goes up, we start using that money to subsidize. Does any sinking fund exist because, I'll say this, I'll say this, even we interviewed people under the PF. There was a sinking fund by then, Minister of Finance had announced that we're putting a sinking fund towards paying the bullet point of the first Euro bond. What we were told after the first cholera disaster is that that sinking fund was used. There was an emergence. There was an emergence. Look at what happened to the reserves. We were less than six weeks of import cover, Dr. Campbell. When PF left office, we were at five months import cover. Five months import cover when PF left office. How much are we at today? That's what I'm saying. These people cannot be trusted because they flip-flopped on everything that they promised the people of Zambia. You know that they promised that we're going to have free education from necessary to tertiary education. What is the meaning of the way tertiary? What is the meaning of the way you and I? They began to implement the free education. Just look after the announcement of results. They have begun implementing this. They have put out memos on what is to be paid, what is not to be paid. You are the same person, Costa, who's telling me that subsidies are not sustainable. Well, I am not a politician. I am asking the tenability. You are the one of those subsidies. Do you know what that free education is? Do you know what that free education has translated into? For this financial year 2022, the government, in order to actualize the budget, which also includes free education, is going to borrow 4.6 billion dollars because somebody was careless. He told the people, I will introduce free education when he knew that there was no money to introduce free education. The only question I can ask you is whether you agree or not. They're saying they've removed those subsidies to push in areas like free education, in areas of recruiting 30,000 teachers, 11,200 health workers, which they say they'll recruit in March into June this year. So you are in disagreement that this is not possible. It is not correct. It cannot work. It is not correct. In fact, to tell you the truth, let me tell you one thing, Costa. In fact, to tell you the truth, there is no subsidy that has been removed on fuel. These guys have only increased the price of fuel. It is only yesterday that oil marketing companies were saying, how do we bring in the fuel when you announce that you've removed duty? Do you know what they did? They issued an instruction that the duty continues being suspended. In the meantime, the price has gone up. So in short, there is no subsidy that has been removed. They've just increased the pump price of fuel. And that is why I'm saying they are inconsistent. You cannot trust them. They are telling people that tighten up your belts because we have to meet the set conditions by the IMF. We've been told to tighten up our belts before. Listen to this. The situation would not have been different even had the PF won the election. The PF was still quoting the IMF. Yes, we're quoting the IMF. The PF were quoting the IMF. The reserves were still bad under the PF. The torque was still bad under the PF. Poverty was rife under the PF. So these things would have still come. The PF were going to remove subsidies either way. The PF were going to remove subsidies but gradually, not at a given time. Boom. This is an action by capitalists who don't care about the poor people. The PF are the plan, yes. And that is why it took long to agree with the IMF because we're saying, look, to just remove electrical electricity tariffs and subsidies to remove subsidies on electricity and subsidies on fuel at a go who affect the poor people. The situation, the anger situation was going to be worsened. So we're saying, can we agree that at least these are done gradually? So there was these discussions. But our friends, because they don't care about the poor people, they just come and implement and now go in the compound and see how the people are suffering today. If they don't care about the poor people, how come they've increased CDF to 25.7 million? That's a government surely already become really that that cares. If they don't care about the poor people, a government that puts up free education is a government that cares. If they don't care about the people, a government that puts sanity and order in markets and past stops where people are being beaten day and night by PF, by PF thugs, is a government that cares for the people. That's why I'm saying the problem with you reporters, you are so scared about governments in power and you also contribute. I'm asking you, I'm asking you, I'm asking you questions. Haven't we seen sanity return? No, no, you are speaking like government. Where have you seen this sanity? People are being beaten up to now. PF thugs, whether it is the same level or it's not at the same level, people are being reduced. It has reduced, yes. So you cannot accept it, but they are working towards bringing sanity. What is that? Which your party, the insanity which your party left. I will leave you to talk. If you want to talk when I'm talking, I will leave you to talk. Because when you ask a question, you give me time to explain. Now if I'm talking, you're also talking, then we are not conversating. So can we give one another chance to explain? Go ahead. I was saying, this issue that they are saying, there is no capitalism in the markets anymore. It's not true. Just two days ago, I was watching on what is this, this TV for Basta Chiluba, Khamenei TV, here, where Kada wanted to take over a cooperative, a market cooperative that they start running it, where they sell timber, and there was almost a near punch up. So when we say this Kadaism is only not there in the mouth of President Againda Ichilema and not in reality. I was in eastern province. You know what the people in the UPND Kadas are doing at Petauke? All the buses that are going to Chpata, whether they are people disembarking at Petauke or not, they tend those buses to go into Petauke town. They collect 60,000 from each bus, and then they let the bus go. So that has not stopped. There are a lot of Kadas who are collecting money in the markets, UPND Kadas. And what is the problem with our brother Againda Ichilema? He says one thing when they are doing the other thing. So this issue of Kadaism has not come to an end completely. Look, the other week, William Banda. Could you say this progress? It's a gradual exercise, gradual progress. We want it to come to an end completely. The issue of Kadaism, stopping Kadaism can be done today. If the UPND can send the police and say, whoever you find in the market, arrest. Have you ever heard that instruction? No instruction has been given. Nobody has been arrested. Those who are collecting money in the markets and at the bus station, which means they are tolerating it. But they want to create an impression to the whole world that they are doing better than PF, when in actual fact they are also behaving exactly the way PF Kadas behaved. And that is one. Given another chance as PF would do better because we have now seen and realized that certain things should never be done. Do you admit that there was lawlessness? Yes, there was. Yes, there was. You agree that there was arrogance under the people? Yes, there was. You agree that the poor people were marginalized? Yes. You agree. That is why the people of Zambia voted PF out. So when they vote you out. Now you're the one who they want me to ask. It's a time to reflect. Now you're the one who wants me to ask. So I was leading you somewhere. So if you agree those things, what convinces you that the Zambians want PF back after putting them through so much hardship in the last, you know, 10 years? PF made mistakes like terrorism. There's a little bit of arrogance from some of the government officials. But when you look at a larger picture, the development that PF has brought to this country is unprecedented. Now if PF can go back to the people, we go back to the people and tell them we are sorry people of Zambia and will not do those wrong things that they're doing. I don't think the people of Zambia would reject the PF looking at the massive development and the plan that we had. I told you when I last appeared on TV that the PF had a plan. The plan was that in the first 15 years, we're going to concentrate on infrastructure development because there's no investor who's going to come to an area where there's no hospital, there's no clinic, there's no schools, there's no electricity. From 1000, 1000 is 1200 megawatts of electricity that PF found. We are now producing over 2000 megawatts of electricity. Here in Lusaka today, if PF did not do the roads, people could have been going to work with bicycles. We have so many vehicles, but there's so many roads that have been expanded. Deal courage ways, new ring roads being built. Can you imagine that five years ago with the roads that we had or 10 years ago, people could have been driving in Lusaka. But at what cost compared to the quality of the roads? Well, the roads have been built. And these are things you condemned yourself. Some of the roads, yes, some of the roads were substandard, agree. And the prices were overinflated. You gave example. You see, that is why I'm saying this government, this government which is here today, is worse than what was obtaining in the PF. They condemned that you cannot spend one million dollars per kilometer. One million dollars per kilometer. Today they've signed a contract to do 200 kilometers of roads in western province and some part of Kopa Beota, northwestern at $1,801.8 million dollars per kilometer. That's why I said, let me get out of this quagmire that I want to involve myself into and go back to PF, work on the mistakes that we're making as PF, start listening to the people, respect the Zambian people, stop journalism, and we continue with the development trajectory. It's not magic or simple science, Honorable Cambuly, that people would just, you know, believe anybody who comes back and says, we are sorry we did this because, you know, power corrupts and that's what we've seen when people are in leadership. Why are you saying your friends stop listening? You said these words, your friends stop listening. So what is it going to take in this rebrand and especially that you feel you are the right person to lead as PF President? What will it take? We've seen the MMD booted out of power. They've literally fell to come back on their knees. We saw UNIP, now it's the PF. How will the PF situation be different from MMD and UNIP? Because in PF we are reasonable. Because in PF we are reasonable. Reasonable in that we have to unite. When you unite, nothing is impossible. You saw that in the MMD there were too many divisions. You saw that in UNIP there were too many divisions. But as PF we are trying by all means to avoid the divisions so that we speak as a unit, we talk as one and the people of Zambia will believe in us.