 Hello and welcome to Dare to Dream. This is Debbie Daschinger. It's a pleasure to be with you. I've been off for a few weeks and it's It's good to be off It's good to switch up the scenery and it's good to come back because this is one of my favorite places to hang out on the planet. I actually had the honor last night of teaching 55,000 people in the entertainment industry about visibility and why visibility and media is so important, why it's a game-changer and it's interesting because that's how I started out my career for a really long time. I was an actress and a singer and then at some point well into my adulthood just you know something shifted and I didn't know what to do literally except to surrender and follow energy and eventually it led me here doing all of what I'm doing and I love what I do and I love that I get to teach and work with people like this. Usually I work with spiritual entrepreneurs and I help them to write their book. I help them to write a page-turner. I help them to take their book to a guaranteed international bestseller and then I teach them the ultimate visibility which is how to be interviewed on radio and podcasts and how to get results. So working with entertainment people last night was a really interesting full circle for me and I'm starting to hear from a lot of them who have interest in my upcoming class. I'll tell you a little bit about it later, the ultimate visibility formula. It's going to be rolling out again, and it's a six-week on week online class with me working with me directly being coached and creating all your materials and plus knowing how to be exquisite savvy and confident when you are on air or on camera. And so for those of you who are interested go to debbyd.net visibiltydebbid.net visibilty and this show has been nominated for two People's Choice podcast awards and also, I just heard from the Webby Awards and they have asked me to actually their third very kind and gracious nudge-nudge wink-wink to me if you would please, if I would please take the show and submit it for a Webby Award. So I I'm living in a lot of grace and gratitude right now. I want to say thank you to Dr. Dane here in Access Consciousness for sponsoring this show. They do beautiful energy work out into the world and if you're looking for a way to become a facilitator of energy work or to be healed by energy work, this is a really different outfit. Go to dr.dane here h-e-e-r dot com. Also, if you love the show, if you want to get a visual of me and my guests, go to youtube.com slash debby dashing or you can watch us there or if you would rather hear the audio of the show, we are on 30 different podcast sites and four different radio stations. Just to name a few, there's Apple and Google Podcasts. There's Spreaker, BBS Radio, Pandora, I Heart Radio and way more. And when you go there, take a moment, leave a five star review. So other people who love this conversation can find it as well. Well, question is how much are you suffering? How much in a daily basis do you spend in the rut? Of suffering and if Buddha could kick the habit of suffering, can we? My guest today is William Arntz, who is a physicist, software entrepreneur, filmmaker and author. He wrote simulators for the early Star Wars program, created software that the Fortune 500 world runs on, created the movie. What the bleep do we know? Movie and books and co-created the book of visionary prophecies, the not so little book of surprises with his wife, Deirdre, and his new book is called How to Suffer in 10 Easy Steps. Yes, we all fall into suffering, but there are ways to get out of that rut. If you'd like to learn more about him, go to howtosuffer.me. William, welcome to Deirdre Dream. It's great to have you. Thank you. Good to be here. Yeah, great to have you. I actually love that website. I think that's pretty funny and I don't know that it was intentional, but the fact that it's howtosuffer.me really speaks volumes because a lot of people suffer, a lot of people take on the onus, the mantle, whether it's external events, people, conditions that create suffering or it's the internal, the state of suffering alone. So I know that your book How to Suffer actually brings suffering out of the closet and you don't have to be Jewish to do it. So I love you to tell the story that you start the book with about the experience your wife had and the catalyst that got you to write the book. Well, thank you. I'll say what happened because it was quite a surprise to me. I was walking through the living room one evening and my wife, Deirdre, was laying down on the couch and her back was out. She was laying there face down, not moving. And I went through and I said, well, honey, you want to go into the kitchen? Maybe have a little Chardonnay and I'm trying to cheer up. And she didn't say anything, didn't even move. I said, honey, are you OK? Well, what are you doing? She goes, I just want to lay here and suffer. And I was like, what? Because, you know, no one says it like that. I said, well, what are you doing? What are you doing? At that point, I just started to laugh. Now, because of what the bleep stuff that I've done and Deirdre's in sort of the self-help spiritual genre anyway, we know a lot of people in the self-help industry. And so I'm always making jokes about, oh, they always say it's so easy and it's not. So I say, she goes, I want to perfect my suffering. I say, well, someone should write a book, How to Suffer in Ten Easy Steps. And so she kind of rolls over there and starts laughing. And she goes, yeah, yeah, some we all need to perfect our suffering. And then we start riffing on it. We decide just like we're doing a roast, right? A roast of self-help books. And well, we should have this and we should have a suffering hall of fame. We should have love songs that hurt and we just going on and on like this. And now, you know, she's kind of sitting up. She's kind of laughing. I'm laughing. And after about 10 minutes of riffing on this, she's good enough. We go off into the kitchen. She has her Chardonnay. Her brother calls. We tell him the title. He starts laughing. And then, you know, we go for another 20 minutes and have a good time. One side note is that he was no longer suffering once we got laughing. But anyway, now it's one of those things you have these crazy and we were out of it. Oh, well, moving on. Well, I kind of thought that. But a month later, I'm still thinking about this thing. It stuck in my mind. And so I decided to start writing some chapters, really just as a joke, just as a satire I could send to my friends in the self-help world. We have a laugh and forget about it. And so I started writing and I kept writing for a year and a half. And lo and behold, the book was done, much to my surprise. So the big question is, did you suffer as you wrote the book? Well, I suffered, but not because I wrote the book. I suffered because I was alive and things would happen in my life. Things would happen that I didn't really want to have happens. Things happened where I screwed up or I was I wasn't, you know, nice to people that really. I mean, there was a whole. So that's the thing. I mean, you it's going to find you no matter what you do. And so as I realized, but I hadn't realized that to that level until I started writing the book. And then I started realizing how everyone. And, you know, my self included doesn't really deal with it as directly as they should. So there's the book. Interesting. And I just want to make of note for people listening or watching that William is actually in the mountains, so he's not suffering while he's there. It sounds rather beautiful. But if you hear a little wonkiness in the quality of the Wi-Fi, that's why I just stick with us. And it's interesting because hearing what happened, you're riffing, you're coming up with these ideas, Deirdre starts laughing. She eventually has the Chardonnay. She's not suffering so much. Do you think that by actually embracing, there was some wisdom there by saying, I'm going to suffer. I'm going to be in this, that something happened of a transition. And then the next transition occurred when there was levity. Definitely. That's the thing I realized was that because she, instead of like bemoaning it or, you know, saying, oh, gee, I'm so unfortunate, yeah, she just went into it. And she decided she was just going to experience it without trying to push it away or rationalize it or anything. She was just going to go into it and really experience it. And it turns out that by doing that, that's the way you can actually move through it much quicker. You know, if you're, we know this from psychology, if you're always trying to deny something, you keep pushing it away, it just, one of the big things I realized in writing this book is for people to acknowledge it and really go into it and experience it instead of just blowing it off. Interesting. It can be said that suffering can actually be contrast. It could give us appreciation of moments of comfort. So if life were comfortable 24 seven, we wouldn't be able to appreciate the moments of comfort. For example, it would be nothing to compare comfort to. So I'm curious if you subscribe to the notion that any of us having experienced suffering at any time in our life. Then we can also experience something contrary like accomplishment, comfort crossing the finish line, joy, ease. Well, it certainly seems that we need to have those moments where we're relatively miserable to really appreciate those, the wonderful moments. And one thing that I bring up in the book is the notion that if you could, most people think unconsciously or subconsciously that if I could get everything I wanted the way I wanted, when I wanted it, my life would be perfect. I never have any troubles. I never be miserable. I never suffer if I could get everything my way. And the thing is that's an erroneous assumption. I mean, personally, I had these goals. I wanted to be a successful scientist. I did this, successful entrepreneur. Yeah, I did this. I made a bunch of money. Yahoo! Good for me. I made the movie. Okay, that was a big thing. You know, I've accomplished all the stuff that I want to do. Accomplish all the while thinking that once I hit that and I didn't have any more worries, I was on cloud nine. Life wouldn't would no longer drag me down. And I was in for a rude surprise when it started to. So, you know, to get back to what you said, those moments where you were it's really tough and you're miserable, just even physically. You know, then suddenly when it goes away and you feel good again, it's like, oh, oh God, I feel good now. So it seems to be as humans, we need that plus and minus. Right. Because there have been so many people could popcorn, many, many names. Mahatma Gandhi, Nelson Mandela, Sitting Bull, to name just a few. They endured great suffering at the hand of others, but it could be plausible to think, will they also experience happiness within the suffering? Because at some level, they're achieving greatness. They're actualizing their potential and the potential of their people through these very hardships that they suffer. Yeah. And I mean, think about Nelson Mandela. I mean, they locked him up and still all unheard. He was something of a terrorist. And he spent those, what, 20 years in prison. And at that point, he transformed. I mean, and that prison experience wasn't fun, but he completely transformed and then emerged and led the nation. I mean, that's a classic example of how going through that, what looks to the outside world, a miserable time, he was able to take it and turn it into transformation. Right. Well, it'd be interesting to see people self-identify when you talk about suffering. So the dictionary actually describes suffering as a state of undergoing pain, distress or hardship. And it's interesting because there's also a reference to weapons, right? Weapons of suffering. So it made me think, oh, we actually weaponize ourselves, right? Sometimes out of subconscious choice to suffer. But I would be curious, what is your definition of suffering? What are the various ways people suffer? Well, I think in the end, suffering is totally an internal state. I mean, even if you shut a car door on your foot and you're in a lot of pain, pain and suffering are not a one in one relationship. You can be in a lot of pain and not really suffer. So some people, like when you look at athletes, world class athletes, the training they go through in order to be able to perform, most people would call that suffering, the diets they do, how they push themselves beyond what they can possibly endure. If you or I were to do that, we would be suffering. But because their goals are such that higher than that, they're able to take the pain and not suffer. So then the question says, well, if they're able to do that, the pain is still in the body. Who is suffering? Who is suffering? And it's the question that a lot of the spiritual folks, they go into, who am I? Who ultimately am I? Am I my body? No. Am I my emotions? No. This is a Buddhist thing in my mind. No. So who am I? So I have come to the realization that the person that suffers is that, who am I? So it happens at a very deep level. Now there's all these external things coming in. There's the physicalness. There's an emotional pain. Your lover you just found has been having an affair. That's very an emotional pain. So now it's not in the body per se. It's in the emotions, but still there is suffering going on. So the whole thing about who is suffering and how does pain have to do with the pressure of suffering? And the idea is there's a point at which the pain builds and you're not suffering. And then it almost triggers to a point where, oh, my God, this is horrible. I can't take it anymore. And then you, the internal person is now suffering. So that's what I've come to realize in looking at this and watching myself and going, oh, my God, because there will be things that annoy me, things that I worry about, but then it gets to a certain threshold. And then I'm suddenly, I'm just miserable. I'm suffering over something. So that's the thing that I realize. We have more control of that threshold than we might believe. That's interesting. Two of those examples were interesting, especially the one about the athletes. I've done two Los Angeles marathons. And most often, it's great surprise to me if it should, for whatever reason, come out in conversation, people have these big reactions. Oh, my God, 26.2 miles, like, oh, and they act like, you know, somebody was beating me for 26.2 miles, but it was not the case. I had a passion all of a sudden. It was as much a surprise to me as anybody else. But I knew enough when a dream comes to me. It's my job to salt and pepper it, make it come true. So I think it's so funny to watch the reaction because it was actually not only a joy, it was difficult training without a doubt. And it expanded me in a lot of ways. Ultimately, it taught me when I crossed the finish line and when I bested my time the second year, how limitless I am, right? So there was a modicum of discomfort. I don't know that I'd call it suffering. So it's interesting when it comes to athletic pursuits, the reactions of people. The other thing I was thinking of when you said that was, you know, it's often said people who travel to a third world country and they'll see people with much less than in general, people have, let's say, in the US, they'll say, but the one thing I noticed is how much joy they had, how connected the family was, how happy they were. Although in many people's eyes, they seem to have less. And to us here, that might have been suffering. To them, they might not have known any different. And I really believe that's a state of mind. And so when you say this. Are there common patterns or common issues that surround the state of suffering? Well, there are. I mean, there's eight billion people. So, I mean, we all also have our own particular brand of it that we've made our physical when you're in, you know, when a loved one dies or leads you. That's another one. You know, something you go home and your house has been broken into, you know, that and you've lost all that stuff. I live in Montecito part time and we were surrounded by fire that fire two years ago. And we thought our house was gone. So luckily it wasn't, but a lot of people was. And so for them, that would again, loss is another form. So there are certain type things, you know, abandonment. People have abandoned them when they feel abandoned. They're abandoned in the child. That'll that'll something that keeps coming back through their lives. So there's lots of, you know, different ways in which people do it. But again, we're all human and we have, you know, our emotional bodies are kind of the same and the physical bodies. So, yeah, they tend to go down certain pathways. So, so what happened for you? Yes and no. Yes and no. Excuse me. I'm just curious since you wrote the book, Will, and, you know, immersing yourself. You said it was a year, a year and a half of writing. What has changed for you around suffering? Well, the big thing that's changed. I came up with this thing, the chapter, the pseudoscience of suffering. Then I got kind of scientifically there's graphs and charts and whatnot. And at the end, I say, well, any science, even a pseudoscience needs some sort of metric in order to measure it. So I am now introducing a sufferometer. And I have instructions on making this thing a sufferometer with a dial. You know, you can set to where you're suffering and some other sliders and stuff to really externalize your internal state. And I thought, yeah, I did a kind of, you know, I'm in the roast mode and kind of making fun of things. And I have a whole satirical thing through the book because, you know, if you're talking about suffering, you don't want to make the people suffer by reading it. So, you know, it's like in a sad movie, you know, you you can make people a little sad, but you don't want them to be heartbroken completely because then they'll hate the movie. So I wanted it to be humorous. So I have the sufferometer and the sufferometer. I started using it and much to my surprise, the actual discipline of going up to this crazy thing and putting on a scale of one to one hundred, how much you're suffering was a revelation. Because often you go, well, how much am I really suffering? And you stop and look at it. And it's like, you know, or vice versa. Wow. That thing that someone said yesterday is still really bothering me. It really is upsetting me. It's is that by being more aware of how much I am suffering, it enables me to deal with it much quicker. The other thing that writing the book has done is that when, you know, some really bad stuff happens and I'm really miserable, the idea that, OK, this is my opportunity to change because I know in my life going back thinking the times I've changed the most for the better. Has been when I've been really, really suffering, really miserable. I know. Why is that? That's just the way we are. You know, you don't, you know, when everything's comfy cozy, you know, well, you know, it's going well, it'll all work out. But, you know, when you're really down at the bottom, that's the point at which you go like, you know, I will do whatever it takes to get out of this pain is a great motivator. It really is. And so when you use that and instead of going into despondency, you say, OK, I'm down here now. There's something I have to learn. I'm going to get the lesson and I'm not going to forget it. And then, you know, you embark on change. Wow. Can we actually accomplish the end of suffering? Is there a way to create the cessation of suffering? Well, according to Buddha, who is much more qualified to answer that question than me, seeing he said he did that, you know, he came up with his noble eightfold, eightfold path on how not to suffer. So there was, you know, there is that. And, you know, certain people have done it now, where I never suffer anymore. So I can't really say for sure. These other beings that have gone before have said, yes, it is possible to do that, but certainly within everyone, you can diminish it and become more aware and use it so it doesn't basically drive your life. Because a lot of what another thing I realize, a lot of what everyone does is they do all this stuff so that they won't suffer. So I want to make a lot of money so I'll never suffer lack. You know, I want to find my true love so I'll never suffer loneliness. And so there's a certain motivation. It's motivating us behind the scenes to do things. Whereas when you become more aware of it, then it's like, oh, let's not have it motivate me, let me use it in a way that's beneficial. That's wonderful. Using suffering to be beneficial. And it truly is a great motivator, I agree. Well, folks, if you are ready and desiring to do what William's doing right now, being interviewed, promoting the launch of his amazing book, maybe it's a film you've done, maybe it's a business of service, maybe you're an expert at something. I'm about to roll out again the Ultimate Visibility Formula Program. It is how to be interviewed on radio and podcast in 60 days or less, even if you don't have any publicity knowledge or know where the podcast shows are. The Ultimate Visibility Formula Registration is at debbd.net slash visibility. Just remember, spell my name without an E. It's D-E-B-B-I-D.net slash visibility. There you're going to learn where all the shows are, know where the shows are, how to be interviewed on shows, receive a list of the radio and podcast shows and the contacts, have built your media kit and pitch letter. Receive private coaching, have your speaking points and know how to avoid freezing or fudging during an interview. Instead, be confident during the process. This program is for people who are ready to rock and roll, who are ready to be seen as the expert in their field and start to be interviewed and get results. Again, it's debbd.net slash visibility. You want to register today. The class is starting to get full. And if you're tuning in after we've started, this is Debbie Dashinger on Dare to Dream and I am interviewing Will Arntz, who wrote and directed the film, What the Bleak, Do We Know? His latest book is called How to Suffer. How to suffer in 10 easy steps, discover, embrace and own the mechanics of misery. You can find his website at howtosuffer.me. Gosh, I love that website. So, Will, welcome back to the show. You know, Nietzsche saw the mere pursuit of happiness and defined that as that, which gives us pleasure. He thought it was a really dull waste of a human life. And he declared that humankind doesn't strive for happiness, only the Englishman does. And he referenced English philosophy being in a time where mankind invented happiness. So psychology sometimes agrees with that. And then, you know, on the other hand, there's the psychologist, Victor Frankel, who suggested that the key to living a really good life was to find meaning and going to, so far as to say that we find positive meaning for the suffering that people endure. So what are your thoughts on suffering and finding meaning? Whoa, that was a lot all at once. Unpack as you will. Well, that was quite a bit. I mean, finding meaning, find meaning in suffering, that's, I think you have to find meaning in suffering because otherwise it just is this arbitrary thing that happened to you. And then people tend to become the victim. And once you go into victim, you've disempowered your situation. Finding meaning in whatever state you're in is really good. But the idea about just chasing pleasure for a good life, I mean, there's a lot of instances where people have done that. They've chased pleasure in every which way they can. And the life ends in suicide. I mean, we've all read things about that in the paper. People who are immensely popular, immensely successful. And they, quote, unquote, have it all and yet at the end they pull the plug. So that idea of just chasing pleasure, I mean, the hedonist sort of worldview, that really doesn't seem to fulfill people. So then you get to the question, what ultimately fulfills people? Well, that's a whole thing. There's people who are spiritual who would say that, OK, it's finding connection with the divine or connection with God, feeling one with the universe, feeling that I'm a part of the whole cosmos and feeling everything. That's meaning for them. You have the people who are secular humanists who say, well, all that God stuff is focus, focus. But what's important to me is that I treat my fellow humans properly. And I do the best I can to make everyone's life good. And they get meaning from that. So, you know, again, there's no one way. But that thing about finding, you know, people will say, what's your passion? Find what your passion is and then go that. Like you were saying about running the marathon, that was a bit of surprise to you that you were even doing it. But something within you, a part of you was just compelled to do it. And so you did it. And by doing it, like you said, you transformed, you learned all this stuff. So it seems to me of some more to say, you know, what's the purpose of this life? It's to evolve and to grow and to become something more than we are. I mean, that's my fundamental belief. So when you're doing that, then that gives your life meaning. And you say, oh, that's why, because otherwise life is just purposelessness. And then we're just, you know, we're just here to eat and sleep. And the people who live that life generally are not very happy. Yeah. I was thinking while you were sharing that, I never considered that before. When you were referencing back to the marathon, but I actually am thinking now, oh, I think there's inherent in every transition, even really great transitions that we'll call to that there is some suffering because there's something completely new. Let's say you want to lose weight. There's going to be discomfort. There's going to be maybe a feeling of suffering. If you go to a party and people are imbibing or eating in ways that you feel you can't and yet still you're committed to your dream. Or if you become an entrepreneur and there's all the growing pains that one goes through, even writing, I mean, I'm a book writing coach and I help people, but I know writers at some point, you know, there's an element somewhat because it's not always easy to write. It's not always easy to do that process. So it's almost like voluntary suffering in order to create a new dream, a new paradigm. Well, that's definitely true. And, you know, as to why that is, I mean, that's the way humans are. I mean, that's something that just has happened in my life. My son, you get in the comfort zone and then you just you just hit the repeat button. That's why it was like when you go into the spiritual ashram. I mean, the stuff that they put you through there, they'll wake you up in the middle of the night, they'll march you, they do all the stuff to basically break down your patterns so that a new person can emerge. So, I mean, there's a whole science behind that about how, you know, in the neural nets, we get stuck in our head, we get in our minds about our brains, how things are. And we tend to repeat, we tend to repeat, we tend to repeat. And just the way we are, we just need something to blow up the patterns. And that is what it is. And something like you said, but the marathon where you really wanted to do it. And so you're out training. And there comes the point where you're like, oh, my side hurts. I feel like I'm getting sick. Why am I doing this? I feel miserable. And then you keep going. And then you keep going and you learn something in that. So that's something that all us humans that I find for myself, I'm 70 now. And there's a way in which I sort of find myself like, oh, I'm just going to do that for a month or so. And then I'm like, well, that was a book. I think there's even a pre Internet problems. Yeah, it's it's got a lot of wonkiness going on. But we're getting the gist of what you're saying. And I'm listening to you and thinking, you know, there's even a pre suffering. A self imposed suffering, because I'm thinking about I used to I used to I'm asked to speak on stage quite a bit. But it used to be I would suffer so much before I went on stage. So exactly the question you were referring to, which is why am I doing this? Why am I putting myself through this? Once I got on stage, I was thrilled. I was comfortable. I had a great time. I thought, why did I put myself through that? I don't live through that anymore, by the way, that is completely healed that whole situation. But it is interesting to reflect back on that and think that or, you know, people can put put in whatever you do before you actualize something, right? That you make yourself suffer so much, you think, why am I even doing this? And you haven't even done it yet. So that's and like I said, in spiritual transformation, you see this, you see it some like in the old est days, remember est back in the 70s, you know, they would put people in very uncomfortable situations and you couldn't go to the bathroom. You couldn't do this. And then to get people does, I can't take it. I can't take it. I can't take it anymore. And then they cross the boundary and they go, oh, yes, I can. So that's the way we are fascinating. So this juxtaposition your life because your professional career, research, laser physicists developing wave optics simulators for high energy laser systems becomes the Star Wars strategic defense system. And then you leave a sensibly, you leave the scientific world and you spend 20 years studying with spiritual teachers. Can you talk about that? What created that need for you a desire? And then what kind of bridge did you create? What was that whole experience like? Well, I mean, I love science. But towards the end of my college, I started realizing that physics doesn't tell you the why of anything. They'll tell you that force equals mass times acceleration. They'll say time acts this way. They'll say in quantum physics, they hear the equations. But when you say why, why is it there's never an answer? And I was always interested in time. And I'm like, why is time, what is time? So I started reading metaphysics, you know, where they start getting into like, well, time is a relative of the space time thing. And in other dimensions, time is all eternal now. In other place, time just plain doesn't exist. So you can't even. So I started reading this stuff, and I was really intrigued by it. And but then there was the stuff about meditating and purifying yourself. And I just ignored that for years, figuring out, I don't need that stuff. After about 10 years of that, I kind of realized, oh, I think I need that stuff. And I'm not figuring it out on my own. So that's when I started with a meditation teacher. And I started doing that. And I just had a sense again, it's an intuition, but the spiritual world that had been denied by the materialistic scientists was as real as that. And so I was just drawn into it, adjust on a deep level made sense to me. So I went off on that, you know, and really once you get the advanced spiritual thing, there is a lot of scientific things. Like if you talk to people about the laws of karma, people have gone for decades talking about that in the intricacies. So it's not just this like, wave your hands and put that happened. So I like that. And then of course, where they came together was when I made the what the bleep film, because that was really about the science and spirituality and the meeting of the two. So for me, that kind of came full circle. And those two parts of my interest in my life came together. Do you think you'll make any more films? Well, I don't think I'll make any more films, but I never thought I would write a book, another book. And I really never thought I'd write a book about suffering. I mean, that's, you know, physics is fun, metaphysics is great. But suffering is a very internal thing that I've more or less than most of my life tried to ignore. So when you say I'm going to make another movie, I think, well, probably not, but there's a 50 50 chance because like we were saying earlier, when you just get that inspiration, the part of you that just says, you know, I'm going to do this like with writing this book, there would be mornings I would sit down to meditate and partway through the meditation. I start thinking about the book. And suddenly I like, oh, that's a whole chapter. So now I never thought I'd do next. OK, so never say never. Well, this is Dare to Dream. And I am interviewing the author, William Arntz. And the show is all about successful leaders who have created really major goals. And I ask you, what would you do if you knew that you could not fail? What would it take for you to feel completely uninhibited, free and bold to go after and live out loud what it is you came here to do? Dare to Dream is your number one transformation conversation, radio show and podcast. You can help the show by donating. Go to patreon.com slash Dare to Dream because we help you and support you. Better ways to live your life. Bigger ways to create your dreams and get there. Again, I am speaking with William Arntz, his latest book, How to Suffer. And he teaches you the ways to do so and the ways to even get out of it and reconsider. So, Will, this is Dare to Dream. What are you next, Dare to Dream? What are your future dreams and goals? Well, right now. Gee, I mean, I've always when you're talking about. Daring to Dream. I've always had the ability to do that. Like when I when I went and made What the What the Bleep? I really made movies before. And so the idea of doing that and making this big thing, people would tell me, oh, you're going to waste your money. But I was like, no, I'm just going to go do it. And gee, I hope I'm good at it. When I did my first software companies, I had written a lot of software, but doing business is a whole other thing. And I had never done any business. And here I am just diving in and doing. But again, I was that like, well, I'm just going to dive in and do it. So that's the part of your Dare to Dream that I think is is really important for people is that that knowing that I'm just going to give it my all. I'm going to go ahead and do it. And, you know, the Dare to Dream is like, don't scuttle yourself before you even start, because that's what most people do. They go, oh, gee, I'd really like to do this. But, well, I don't know, you know, then all the doubts come in and that sort of thing. And I mean, with my movie, maybe luckily I did have some talent and it turned out well. It could have been like partway through, you know, you go through it and you go like, I mean, the first book I ever wrote some years ago, I ended up throwing away because someone told me afterwards the first book, you know, you're going to end up throwing it away. And I said, no, not this one. This one's different. Oh, my goodness. So, wow, that was a good practice. But it's more important, I think, to go ahead and do it and write that first book, because that's how you learn. I mean, and that's how you learn what you can and can't do. So I'm with you on Dare to Dream. I'm grateful. You're a great example of living dreams out loud and so many different arenas. That's a beautiful thing. You know, you're a triple quadruple threat. And so I wonder what is the one ritual or practice outside of meditation that you engage in? What keeps you really grounded? What keeps me really grounded? It keeps me really grounded. Nature, it's nature. You know, I just love, I'm up here at 8,300 feet in the mountains. I love that. And that's it for me, nature. Being in nature, quiet, wildlife, all that stuff. Did you get any of that? You just blinked out. Yes, no, you said nature and I concur. That's a beautiful answer, actually. So does that mean that I know you're in the mountains right now, does that mean that you purposely either live there or find ways to go there? And if so, what do you do with nature that really grounds your, connects you? Well, the thing that grounds me the most is when the wild animals come by. Like this summer, there was a moose that ended up taking, started living in my courtyard here. And I would go out there and there's the moose. So I'm like, hi moose. And the moose, and I have conversations with these animals and they just kind of look at me like, ooh, but that happens, a herd of elk around. Sometimes over a hundred, they'll surround my house. And then I go out and I found there's a way in which to be with animals where you don't frighten them. You kind of walk around with them. I have a bobcat that shows up that, again, the bobcat has come by enough that when I see the bobcat, I always go out and generally bobcats will just run when you show up. But this one now stops. We kind of look at each other and we just will hang out together. So when the wildlife comes through, you know, for me, that's really something special and I just love it. That's beautiful. How have people been receiving your book? Well, people have really, really liked it. I mean, the first off, I get a lot of comments about say, oh, well, it really is funny. There's a lot of humor in it. So they like that. And then they it's funny in the beginning. And by the time you get through it, you were like, wow, there was there was a lot there. It was really beneficial. So people in the interviewers that I've had, people have been very supportive and said, wow, this is really interesting that no one's really talked about bringing suffering out of the closet before. And we all do it, but no one talks about it directly. And they're all like, like, huh, that's really something. So the response has been good. I concur. There's there's a lot and and well easy read, by the way. But there's a lot in here. I like the different rhythms in the book and the various points brought up and the noble truths brought up that's something people will want to read about. And there's this notion, too, that suffering is actually working out of one's life history. What do you think about that? What do you mean by working out of life history? I'm not quite sure what you mean. Yeah. So you had brought up the idea in the beginning of abandonment that some people experience abandonment when they're young. And it seems to be a recurring theme that might come up. And you could put a lot of things in that spaces that there are things people might have experienced emotionally, physically, culturally, wherever they grew up, whatever country that might have created some kind of belief, limitation, trauma. But the suffering itself may be a calling to be healed that when we suffer and if we carry through with some of the steps you talk about and some of what you mentioned in this interview, that we actually can work out our life history. We can find a way through to the other side. Well, that was very well said. I agree with what she said. You answered your own you answered your own question very well. I can't add much to that. I mean, you kind of nailed it right then and there. So, yeah, there's that, you know, thing. And if you continually suffering over the same thing. It's it's time to really go and do the inner work. And the fact that it keeps coming up and I mean, there's a certain notion. This is more of a metaphysical concept that if you, if there's a part of you that needs that healing, you will keep creating the situations in your life to bring it up until you clear it. So by ignoring it, it's just going to keep coming back because your soul is going to keep bringing his experiences in for you to clear it. So once once if you're if you believe that and I certainly do, then it's like, well, something keeps coming up. It's time to like to say, whoa, what's what's really going on here? I need to go on of the four noble truths. Can you choose one and talk a little bit about it? Well, the the first noble truth is life is suffering. So that's like, OK, if you're living, you're going to suffer. The one noble truth is all suffering is caused by attachment to the unsubstantial. So that means, you know, if you're attached to the things you're going to go away, you're going to suffer. So I should say in the second half of the book, the first is the 10 easy steps to suffering. The second half of the book is the six slippery steps to get out of suffering. And the reason they're slippery is one would be attachment or non-attachment because on the one hand you're non-attached, so things don't bother you. But some people are so non-attached, nothing bothers them. And they kind of live a zombie life. They get so much into their own attached that again, they just zombify. So it's slippery. You know, you can be too non-attached. You can be too attached. So I call these slippery steps because you have to use your wisdom to find the balance, the golden middle path to to use it. So that's that's the one noble truth about detachment. I mean, people make jokes, Buddhist jokes about attachment and non-attachment. But that's that. So how can people find you besides the how to suffer dot M E? Where would you like to direct people? And is there anything you want to tell them about that you're doing or offering right now? Well, that's probably that's probably the thing. Yeah, how to suffer dot me. Aside from that, I'm mostly just doing these these interviews because there's been quite a few of them. And aside from that, going for walks in nature, that's pretty much what's going on in here. And that the best place to find it now, there's a website. If you go to the homepage on that website that it takes you to, there's other stuff that I'm doing. But right now it's it's all about suffering. I know you're a member of the Transformational Leadership Council. We have many mutual friends in that group and also the offset group as well. How is that experience for you, that mastermind, if you will, at that level? Well, the mastermind, it's it's that's an interesting question. I mean, part of the inspiration for this book was because, you know, like I know all those folks and they're they're all doing this sort of self help stuff. And I often get in the conversations with them saying, you know, is it is it really easy or not? But, you know, getting around people like that who are, you know, what can I bring to the world that there needs and, you know, a lot of people focused on the healing and you just get around those folks. And it's just inspiring because everyone's everyone's working away at it. So it's kind of a meeting of the minds. Thank you for coming on the show today. And thank you for surprising us, I want to say, every so often reinventing what it is you have to express out in the world and for doing it so brilliantly. Well, thank you like and this this last one, boy, this one is the big surprise. So but again, you know, sometimes the universe gives you your marching orders and you just say, here I go. So here I went and here we are. So thank you for having me. This has been great. Yeah, it's been really wonderful. Folks, you can go to that link to get his book. And I end today's show with this quote from Horace. Suffering is but another name for the teaching of experience, which is the parent of instruction and the school master of life. Tune in the next weeks to Dare to Dream and listen to this cutting edge conversation with my upcoming guests, Patty Stranger, Paul Selling, David Wolf and Lisa Gar. Subscribe to the Dare to Dream podcast to hear this number one transformation conversation. And again, if you would like to see rather than just do the podcast, go to the YouTube videos at youtube.com slash Debbie Dashinger. Thank you so much for joining us today on Dare to Dream. And remember the secret of success is having the courage to begin in the first place.