 Aloha. Welcome to Think, Take, Hawaii's show, Don't Just Age, Engage. I'm your host, Larry Grimm. And I'm welcoming you to this time for us to take a few minutes to think about the uniqueness, the unique way in which men grieve. And it's been a recent discovery since the 90s that research and material has been shaped and fashioned to address the uniqueness of men and grief. And today we have Dr. Joseph Epink with us. Dr. Joseph Epink. Hi, Joseph. Welcome. Hi. Thank you. Thank you so much for being a part of this discussion. My program, Don't Just Age, Engage, has to do with enabling elderly people, elderly, not elderly, but enabling people who are aging in ages, what, 50s, 60s, 70s, to make a transition between their adulthood and their elderhood. And we all have childhood, adolescence. We have adulthood. And then we have an elderhood. And many times the struggles that people have in adulthood come from the fact that they have not made a transition, smooth transition from adulthood into elderhood. I'm sorry, the frustration that they have in the elderhood is because not having made a transition between their adulthood and their elderhood. And I maintain one of the main issues, emotional transitions that has to be made in the spiritual dimensions, spiritual tasks, is to go through the grieving process. The grief of leaving something behind, sometimes it's way far in the past, sometimes it's recent, but the grief keeps us locked down. And so I've invited Dr. Joseph, or Joseph, Dr. Epink, to come join me today to discuss this in particular with regards to men. And he is specializing in that. So Joseph, tell us about yourself. Tell us about and begin us down this path of exploring the uniqueness of grief in men's experience. Right, well, thank you again for having me, Larry. So what I do is I'm at Bristol Hospice, I'm a volunteer coordinator, and I do therapeutic music. And then, along with that, I also do men's grief support group as a part of my work with the Brief Men coordinator that I used to be in, but I still kept that in there. And then I'm also at end of life doula, where we do work with the brief. And with all of this, I think by my journey in men's grief started early on in working with patients in hospice years when I was volunteering and kept up with the families. And since then I did research on music and healing and kept the process going, but it's a fascinating topic. That was one thing that I did not mention, and I should want to let the viewers know that you also are a very creative and devoted musician right now working where? St. Peter's Viscule. Yes. And I'm producing wonderful weekly moment for music with online for all those of you. So, so what is it about men's brief in particular that what attracted you do to men's grief to specialize in the grief that men have. You know, and we surely don't mean to stereotype or pigeonhole people at all. But men have this way of grieving or not grieving. And if I can, if we could use slide one. So, some ways that men grief, and not always in a positive manner. You know, we look at silence and isolation. And I do want to preface this. This is not only about losing somebody in your life that you love. This is about retirement. This is about losing, you know, aging. Going well. This could be a loss of finances. Grieving takes many forms in many areas. So men in particular tend to be silent, isolate. They distract themselves in that they work more. You might find new relationships, etc. But there are also positive distractions, exercise, positive attitude, but got to be careful because even those positive distractions could lead you away from not going through the grief process, which is the most important. Then, you know, go ahead, Larry, did you have a question. I was going to say what what this is that keeps men stuck in grief. This is a natural reaction to who lost grief is a, it's an appropriate emotional response to having something removed from me. Maybe I have a role or a responsibility that I cherish and then that my life changes and it's gone. Like you said, a person dies. So much change so much change occurs, and especially in this elderhood time and his movement from adulthood to elderhood that I'm talking about. So, yeah, what, why is it. I mean, why is it that it seems so foreign to us. It hurts a lot. And we are under that guys that the guys that men have to take care of the family. They are the supporters. They are the ones in strength. They are the ones that are not supposed to cry. These are all societal messages. If you go back to that slide one on the bottom there. The messages we get from society men don't cry, be strong. It's time to move on to hear that a lot or don't make me feel uncomfortable. Don't don't talk about the fact that you've lost your home and they're now in a small apartment because you're retired. That makes me feel uncomfortable. And so society in general does a lot of these messages to men and they internalize them, and they're scared to greet they're scared to go through that process, because they have to be real about it. So men, men who take in the and we, we inherit these values we inherit these injunctions in us, we assimilate them, we turn them on ourselves, and we are constantly self talk. Don't, don't cry, be, don't cry, be strong, carry on, move on, and don't be uncomfortable. And we take those to ourselves, we've inherited them. So part of what you're saying is not to criticize men for feeling this way or having these, but to understand why it is that we men, as men, have a particular struggle. And it's very easy to judge somebody when they're grieving, because they're going to do things that just are out of the ordinary for that person. And it's going to be easy to say, oh, look how crazy they are, you know, or, or react to their anger, but that anger is really some really deep down hurts that they are experiencing for the change that has come about to them. The men in general, you know, have difficulty asking for help or receiving that help. And when there's a grieving period, that's the time to embrace that, but then tend to run away from that. So in the spirit of attempting to enable people, men viewers in particular, but also those who are with men who are grieving to recognize what they're going through. Would you go down the list that you presented to us and just make comments about each one of those from silence is isolation to want to move on. Yeah, so the silence and isolation that is definitely removing yourself away from maybe your faith community, maybe your friends that are their relatives, because they make you remember. You see them and then you remember that a change has happened that you're grieving, and you don't want to deal with that. So it's easier to stay in your place alone, or isolate from others. And then the distractions, whatever you can do to make sure that you don't go through that grieving process, whether it's, you know, whether it's shopping, whether it's eating wrong, whether it's, you know, just binging on TV, you know, 24 hours a day kind of a thing. Or you're taking up working and working so much, even if it's volunteering, but something that you're doing to take you away from that grief. And that in turn could be positive too much exercise, but whatever you're doing so that the Greek doesn't hurt. I imagine, I imagine there's some sense of embarrassment that goes along with that at times. Was that being right? Absolutely. Even all the things that go along with elderhood, the financial aspect of home, that's embarrassing. So addictions. Addictions, studies, there are studies that unfortunately men fall in the area of addictions could arise even more. Whether it's it's drinking gambling, you know, whatever it may be, that addiction could take over and it will stop the grief for a short period of time. But then suddenly that grief is going to come back even stronger. Is it possible addictions often associated with trauma? Is it possible that a person may take on a new addiction with a new grief? Absolutely. Are you thinking of something in particular because yeah, it could happen. Well, just anything. I mean, a new loss and somebody begins using drugs more. You know, pharma, the prescription drugs can become, I would imagine, a real opportune addiction at that point. They could get prescriptions for their sadness, for their sorrow and then become addicted to those. Right. Absolutely. I'm sorry. Okay. Continue your comments. This is helpful, I think, on that list. Sure. So then, just as you said earlier, the feeling like a failure, like when you can't support or you don't have the home you have or the lifestyle you used to have because you're retired, you're feeling like a failure at some point. That then can also lead to poor self-care. You're eating wrong. I have done them and I'm working right now and breathing. That's just, and we talked about last week, he's not eating properly. I mean, just going to 7-Eleven, grabbing something morning, noon, and night. And he was a haven't healthy eater, exerciser. He just has no interest in that right now. And I know he's going to get over this, but for right now, that's what's happening. And, you know, he did not want to see a bereavement grief counselor because he didn't want to ask for help. He's young. You know, he's supposed to be doing it on his own. But he finally came forward and it's accepting that help, but it's very, very hard for him to move on through the grief. And it'd be easier for him to delve himself into the work instead of dealing with that grief. Yeah, okay. Very good. I'm fond of a man named Stephen Jenkins, Jenkins and he says, grief is a way of loving what is no longer there. And so it's, again, that very natural kind of desire to be in touch with what's no longer there, to be embraced by, to hold, and to take care of. So do addictions, are addictions just a way of saying, well, I'm going to embrace this that I can hold on to? The sense of control is, I mean, you can control those addictions because you can control how much alcohol you can consume, but you can't control grief. You can't control it when you're in the supermarket and you see something and then suddenly you end up in tears. That's embarrassing. You feel like you're not in control of your life. But it's what happens with grief, and we haven't been taught in our society about the things that happen during grief. Yeah, which leads to this question that's come up with, from one of our viewers, Joseph. Does a man's race or culture affect how a man grieves? And we've touched on this a little bit. But could you expand, are you aware of other cultures other than our own and how they may impact grief or what is the power of the culture and the grieving experience? Definitely. And it's the way that people grieve that is so different in various cultures and races. You know, but for the most part, it's still the adage that men are to be strong. But we have cultures that where they will, you know, spend three days in tears and crying and they get it out. And there's some healthy steps there. But then at the end of that three days, that's it. And then what do you do because that grief is going to come back. So absolutely you have to work with what the parameters you have in that culture and deal with the grief as you've been taught as you've been raised to continue. I remember in Houston, I had quite a few Latino patients, family members. And the Latino men, when the family would gather, the Latino men would would stay out in the hallway and confer with each other while the women were at the bedside and doing the doing more careful grieving, whereas some of the men that I had the opportunity to chaplain as a hospice chaplain would stand apart and stand together but apart from the actual dying experience. You've mentioned bereavement. How do you do you make any distinctions between bereavement and grief and what are those distinctions. Well, you know, breathing is sort of an overall term that we use when you've lost a loved one. But I think the important thing here is a process of grief grief is a process. Regardless if it's a loss of a loved one for finances or loss of a job loss, especially now with COVID right just getting out of it and the number, the number of men that lost their jobs and we're not able to support their families. The amount of grief is immense with that and it's hard because you've got anger built up there that you've lost your job. You are angry at this little bacteria or whatever it is that's causing COVID that you cannot control. All you know is that something else controls your life for that moment, and you are now not able to support your family. That's huge in the grief line. Can I bring your slide back up please? Sure. Difficulty asking for help. Yep. Difficulty accepting help. What makes that what what what prompts that what is what what makes why is it so difficult to ask for help. It goes right up there. You may be seen as a failure if you ask for help. We're accepting help. You're out of control. I remember one little cartoon that I've seen on on Facebook and you're looking at looking at the backside of a person who's sitting in front of a lake and says, don't worry, nothing is under control. Absolutely. And it is a spiritual journey to go through grief and recognize the limitations that we have in our lives in terms of control. So grief, grief, grief, grief, loss, loss, loss, embarrassment, lack of control. What about let's go to the worst possible extreme, which is suicide. Talk about that. Men's grief and suicide. That actually didn't put on there. But it is, it is a high number in men grieving versus women grieving. Because you've lost hope. And if you've lost hope, what do you have. And so the numbers are there to show that men's suicide is very high when they're grieving. If they're not being, if they don't find that support network and support system, things that can keep them going through the grief. And then the, the upside of that is, if you stop that grief and just put this wall, you begin your working. And then you, you don't deal with the grief. A year from now, that grief may come back and it'd be so, so horrible that those suicide may become that thought of suicide may become reality. Yeah, I have a dear friend who loves to quote, send me this quote. And remind me of this quote that suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem. And how important that, I mean, just is a very important thing to realize. Okay, let's, let's bring up your slide. Of what to do. Okay, so the most important thing is give yourself permission to take this journey through grief. The first step in your grieving, because you're saying, okay, I'm sad. I'm out of control. I know things are going to happen to me through this grieving, but I'm going to let it happen because it's going to be, there's a light at the end of the tunnel. So just allowing yourself to add crazy through the grieving process, make bad decisions. Okay, but what are you going to do. So then the things that you can do after you've allowed yourself to go through that process. So you're not going to shut out the world. You're going to talk to people. Communication is so important during this time. You're going to share stories. Those friends want to be there for you. So let them be there for you. Some other things you can do, you know, you've got to get those emotions out, which I'm just really are not good at at all. Maybe it's through ritual that you want to do privately. Maybe it's through prayer. Maybe it's through a rosary, whatever kind of mechanism you may have to get that emotion, maybe it's putting on an opera and singing to your heart's content. If the neighbors hear you, whatever, get that emotion out. Maybe it is ready. Maybe it is screaming. Hold on, Joseph, I gotta stop you. Okay. I gotta stop you about about the point. I rely on friends. I'm sorry, but rely on friends is very iffy, it seems to me. How can you? Do you really tell people to rely on your friends? I think that's just, I think look at the wording, not rely, but you can allow instead of shutting everybody out, you're not going to count on them to go through the grief process with, but you're going to allow them to be at your side if that's a positive thing. Okay, well, that's a good qualification. No, truly, and I don't mean that to be rude, but it does, but I am being rude. And oftentimes friends are the last to be able to allow you to grieve as and allow that person to do the first point, which you said is to take that journey through the emotion. At least it seems to me. So, so would you amend that rely on friends to maybe qualify it a little bit if they are able? Absolutely. Yes. Okay, thanks. Yes. And then, you know, use nature, you know, here on the island, there's hiking. There's, you know, my research in using the sound of the waves, you know, if you need a good grounding wave that's a lower tone, you go over to Makaha area. There, the waves, they're just sit and listen. There are deeper tone on the island, and they bring such comfort to you, but the nature, the flowers, the beautiful island that we have help it allow you to heal. And this is a time to take extra good care of yourself. Maybe it is reading, maybe it is eating something decent. Maybe it is just being you for a while. Maybe it is not going to work or taking, you know, a day off or whatever, just be good yourself during this process. I think that's very important to, you know, I would affirm that because there is that tendency towards isolation and self-resist, self-dependency. I'm going to be strong, et cetera, and all of that that we've been inherited from our society, which doesn't always work. It just doesn't do it. And caregiving, providing care for self is what you're talking about that I think I would agree is so important. What about writing? Do you encourage people to do any writing? Absolutely. So many of the women that I work with, it's not easy, but we encourage journaling. And even if it's like a number on how you're feeling or, you know, a drawing or a sketch or just some kind of mark, just get it out, get it on paper. It helps that bottle cap that we have on this pressure cooker. It will help relieve it a little bit. There's a, there's an old song that I used to sing a lot. I'll be seeing you in all the old familiar places. Let this heart of mine relembers all day through. What about going back to those places? Absolutely. Whatever can help you heal, whatever can help you go through that grief process. If it's going to be a trigger, then no, wait a minute. Now, what do you mean that, but if it's going to be a trigger? If it's going to be a trigger to maybe you go through something and that makes the addictions go even farther, then you don't want to be around that. But if it's going to help your grieving, even if there's tears and you can go through it, I all means definitely do it. Okay. We have another question, Joseph, from a viewer and I thank you so much for your questions. My friend has been mourning over a death for a year and been relying on me for the most part. How long should I wait until I tell him he needs professional help? It's never too late. It's never too late to talk to somebody. Whatever it is, maybe it's a brief, a brief coach, maybe it's, you know, further. It's never too late. Or maybe never too early. Right. Exactly. Great. Well, thank you. There are limits that we always find we have. Anybody does everybody, even professional people. So defining those limits and saying, I've done, I love you. I've done what I can, but I really want to encourage you to go see Joseph Epic and I've got your email address right here. Tell us about your grief support group. Oh, I've been my men's grief. I love this group. So it needs every second and fourth Wednesday it's on a zoom room so I can send you the link just email me and I'll send you the link to it. It's from seven to eight. It could be many people. It could be just one, but it's a place to find support for whatever grief you're going through. Excellent. And again, I want to thank Bristol Hospice Hawaii for for the wisdom that has brought them to this place to support men and their unique grieving process with the activity of this men's grief support group. And one of the things that I do in my coaching is as bring people together in a global community. And I find that people are so grateful for that they said that is one of the key elements because nobody else sometimes seems to know what's going on and be able to identify with that. So that companionship is of really high value and importance. Well, Joseph. Thank you so much. I do think that what you are doing is, I think in the extreme life saving and in the in the mirror event is helpful and supportive for people as they move through this life and the many changes. And one of the things I like is that it's a great counter cultural effort. We do counter a culture that with with warmth and love for one another with which otherwise would be isolating and and self defeating. Thanks again. I appreciate you. And to all of your viewers, I welcome you again in two weeks. Thank you for coming on and participating with us in men's grief. Two weeks. The first age and gauge will be back with you from think take away to a clock Hawaii time Tuesday in two weeks and we will feature. Dr Morgan Dr. Lucas Morgan, who works his own, his own counseling service in gerry ontology this would be a good follow up to what we've just witnessed and talked over today, because this expands us into a number of emotional dimensions that come and become come upon us and come within us, rise up within us. As we go into the elderhood years, come join us then in two weeks. Thanks to think tech Hawaii for their support for this wonderful community opportunity. Go to think tech Hawaii calm and press the donate button and give more than you can. And thanks so much for being here. Aloha.