 Good afternoon, everyone. My name is Pao Nuspedal and it's a great pleasure to be part of the opening of this event. From the IA side, we are very pleased to organize it together with our colleagues at EBRD. So many thanks to colleagues at EBRD, Victor and others, but also, of course, to our colleagues at IA. Shane, my colleague who presented here later, but also Javier and Jay Sun, who has been a part of preparing this workshop. Which is taking place in the context of the implementation of the Jeff-funded Global E-Mobility Programme. Where we, IA, as well as the EBRD, are part of the implementation. And of course, this goes very much in line with our priorities, as you noted, the IA has over the last years, have a very strong focus on supporting governments with analysis and recommendations when it comes to the deployment of electrical vehicles. We have our annual report, the Global EV Outlook, that comes out every year around April-May. We're currently working on that as well now for the next year's edition. In addition to the Global EV Outlook over the last years, we also have established a number of important databases, which is both on the policy side, but also on data, on EVs and markets and sales. And we encourage everyone, of course, to take a look at our website to get the latest information there. But of course, we also engage in other analysis, which is also important for helping governments understand how they can further accelerate the deployment of EVs. And that includes work on clean tech manufacturing, where we over the last year, including in the energy policy perspectives, presented a special focus on this report, and something also has been supported in the G7 over the last year. We're really looking at supply chains challenges when it comes to deployment, not so much from the technical side, but from supply chain point of view. However, today, as I said, the focus of this activity is very much a part of the Global E-Mobility Programme, which purpose is to support low and middle income countries with their ambitions to scale up EVs. And we at IE is leading two of the working groups that are purpose to develop knowledge products that can help governments in the implementation. So that's on light-duty vehicle and charging infrastructure. Today, this event focus more on the work we've done within the first working group, which is on light-duty vehicles. And I'll very soon hand over to my colleague Shane here to present a new tool that will launch that almost a year ago, which focus on total cost of ownership for light-duty vehicles. And for us, just before I hand over to Victor first from Iberdi to provide an open remarks and presentation for Iberdi's point of view, they have to say the value we put to the conversations we're having here today, but also continuation both with Iberdi, but also you individuals that are joining this event. So first of all, one important aspect is to improve the data within the Global E-Mobility Programme. We at IE, closely together with UNEP are working on collecting data on EV markets, on policies, etc. to also improve our tools. And this is also, of course, very important here for how we can further refine the tool that you'll hear more about today. So how do we get as much granularity on different markets as possible as we're trying to make sure this tool is also useful in different geographies? But we hope also, of course, this helps you in your daily work. I know you come from a mix of different type of organizations. If it's from Reachers, from Government, that making sure that in your processes, you also have reliable data and information analysis that you can help you on your processes to also feedback into the policymaking in your countries. If you have any questions, don't ever hesitate to reach out to us at IE. We are a coordinating initiative as well called Electrical Vehicle Initiative, so you can always reach us on evi.ia.org. But of course, don't hesitate also to go through EBRD as a main contact as well if you want to reach out to us. Before we are saying a few words on the TCO tool that you hear more about later, I think this is a very new, exciting way of us to also present outputs. We're mostly famous and recognized for the analytical work we're doing through reports and databases, online products. And this is certainly a new area on the online front where we see excitement, where we have potential users, both from, of course, policy makers, researchers, but also actually end users, consumers that can come in and look at what are the costs of EVs in comparison with other vehicles in your jurisdictions as well. So this is, of course, something which moves the frontier of how we can work closer and closer to the uses of clean air technologies, and that's why we're very excited to get this opportunity to work on this tool as well as part of the Jeff E-mobility program. I stop here, but thanks to you again for joining this very important workshop we're having today, a webinar, sorry, and I hand over you to Victor to kick off the discussion from the EBRD.org. Thank you very much. Thank you, Per. So can you see my screen now? Yes. Yeah. Okay. So good morning, good afternoon, everyone. I'm Victor Bonilla, I work at EBRD. So today's workshop is the first part of a two-session workshop that we are delivering with the support of the IEA on the tools that they have developed as part of the Global Electric Mobility Program financed by the Jeff. This is one of the dissemination or knowledge sharing activities that are part of the program, which are delivered through regional support and investment platforms. In our case, this one is delivered by the one, the support platform managed by the EBRD, which covers Central and Eastern Europe, West Asia and the Middle East. So before we start the session on the TCO tool, please give me just a few minutes to introduce what this is about. As Per introduced, there is this Global Electric Mobility Program financed by the Jeff and delivered with many partners like UNEV, the IEA, other UN agencies, ADB and others. And it is organized in two main components. The first component with four working groups, elaborating tools and knowledge. And another component with four regional platforms that deliver and share that knowledge and support a group of projects also financed by the Jeff on different regions. I think there are a total of over 40, 45 companies already in the program, maybe more. And our platform that covers, as I mentioned, Central, Eastern Europe, West Asia and the Middle East is supporting six national projects in our region, Albania, Armenia, Jordan, Lebanon, Ukraine and Uzbekistan, and maybe a few more in the coming months, plus other regional mobility projects not related to the Jeff program. The main outcomes that we expect to achieve with this platform is to create a network of practitioners in the mobility in the region. We also expect to increase the capacity for project development and maybe to improve the ties with the eB suppliers. And we also expect that through the activities of the platform, there will be better conditions for investment in the mobility in the region and that we will foster market expansion. Our platform is organized along five main components. One is, as I mentioned, a community of practice, which is a network of people working on mobility for the private sector, public sector, academia, a bit of everything. And that meets from time to time to discuss about their projects, about different themes and challenges in the region. We also have a web space and a help desk function in which we try to support projects with knowledge sharing and trying to provide contacts that may help them to progress in the projects. We organize as well an annual event in person. So the annual event of 2023 was in Ismir and was focused on training. There will be another one in 2024 probably in London. A key component is training and capacity building. This is mainly the main component of the regional platform and consistent providing trainings, disseminating global best practices or, for instance, the work that has been developed by the working groups led by the IA and UNEP. And finally, there is another component focused on developing the marketplace and trying to improve the access to EV suppliers and finance for the project developers in our countries of operation. And just to wrap up this section, the upcoming events, of course, there is this two session workshop with the IEA today and the 14th November. There will be a session about the EV charging and grid integration tool, which will be also very interesting. In addition to that, we are delivering an online training in electric mobility with interpretation in Russian and Arabic. We already delivered the first session in October and the second will be the 16th November focused on policy. The third one will be in December on fleet electrification and three more sessions will happen in between January, February, focused on EV charging, two of them, and another one on battery recycling. In addition to that, there will be other regular meetings, plus we are starting to organize this annual in-person workshop early next year, as I said, probably in London around March. Thank you very much for more information. Please contact me. I'm available for share more information or to have a chat about the different activities that we are doing and how we can cooperate. And with no further ado, I think that it's time to return the word to Shane and to start the presentation of the TCO tool. So thank you very much and Shane, back to you. Thank you, Victor. So these are some very, very brief slides just to give you some context. But the main thrust of today's presentation should be interaction with the tool and some questions. So very quickly, and this tool was developed for the JET7 in mobility program, and there's a huge geographic diversity among those. So one of the main important things about the tool is it had to be applicable to a really wide range of users. And like we said, different geographies, different socioeconomic circumstances, lots of different costs. And so rather than trying to be a super accurate tool that really models all of these different circumstances. The idea is for it to be a really good way to impart some key lessons about electron mobility and how the costs about. And one thing as well was it had to be somewhere where policymakers could come and maybe test out different ideas. Our focus in working group one is on light duty vehicles. So this tool right now only looks at essentially passenger cars and light trucks. And we have ambitions in the future to extend this to things like buses, where we see like really good total cost of ownership comparisons already being met in many different markets. And we also have some colleagues here in the IEA that are working on grid integration of electric vehicles, which is working before. And so like I was saying, the benefits of the tool here are that it has to be applicable to a lot of use cases. So we don't necessarily want someone to come and try and suggest, you know, to look to us whether they should buy an EV or a plug-in hybrid or an internal combustion engine, but they can come to this tool and make some different modeling choices and understand what the benefits of electrical mobility might be and when an EV is a better choice for them. The learning opportunities are important as well. And like we said, we wanted some awareness on the policy effects. So I'm trying to skip through these slides nice and quickly. And what I want to do is mostly focus on the actual tool itself. So rather than listening to me talk, I want to demonstrate how the tool works. And much better than listening to me ramble for a long, long time is if anyone has questions throughout, please raise your hand and you can unmute yourself. Jason is also on the call and is helping me moderate. So if anyone has questions throughout, it's much better to ask now. And we can we can discuss them to wait to the end. So again, what I'm much more do because I think we're maybe a little bit stuck for time today. If you if you go to the website here that it's hosted on the ideas website for free. And if you just search IA total cost of ownership, it should bring you here. And all we have is a little bit of an explainer on what, first of all, a total cost of ownership comparison is. And what we try and do is we understand that when you purchase, for an example, electric vehicle, the upfront costs or how much that vehicle costs is usually a lot higher than a traditional car such as a petrol or diesel. But when you buy petrol and diesel to fuel your traditional vehicle that usually costs quite a lot more than it does to charge your electric car. And so there's some kind of complex interactions here. And we also have considerations on insurance costs on maintenance, and then on the lifetime of the vehicle. What we want to do is add up all of these things the upfront costs the fueling the maintenance and see which of these actually has a lower total. So over all of the years of owning vehicle, which of them costs more or costs less. So the total cost of ownership is a fair way of comparing different technologies that have different upfront costs and different running costs. So the total of what we have is we have a basic version, which means that a lot of the costs and stuff we assume values for those. And we also have an advanced version, which allows the users to go and play with those variables, and to maybe more accurately model their circumstances. So in the basic version, which I'll demonstrate first, you have some very high level choices, you know what kind of vehicle. So in the advanced version, you can dial in exactly like how much you might cost, what the differences in taxes are, for example. And I also encourage people to look through the brief explanation of the results here. And what it does is it, it explains kind of how to interpret the grass, because if we look at these graphs, without ever having worked in the mobility space or having done maybe some basic economic analysis. It's very difficult to understand exactly what is happening, but we've developed some lessons here, which help users to to look at the graphs and to maybe pull out some policy lessons from those. So we're looking at cumulative cost curves. That's a nice fancy way of saying we're adding up the costs in every year to give us this this line. So if we make our purchase in year zero, and then we add the fuel cost of every year, we can see that we develop these lines. And we also talk about concepts like cost parity. So what a total cost of ownership graph like this is very good at demonstrating is how long do we need to own the technology for before we break even with the competing technology. So for example, what we see here is vehicle a vehicle be these lines cross at this point, which means even though vehicle a was cheaper and had a lower cost to purchase, because the operating costs, mainly the fuel are higher than the vehicle be once we've owned that vehicle for around nine years, the total cost so the total amount of money spent on buying the car and the fuel is now greater than it was for vehicle be and vehicle a and B here are kind of a proxy for you know an internal combustion engine vehicle which is, you know, cheaper at the start, but has higher costs and electric people which is more expensive at the start but has lower costs. So, I encourage you to go through these lessons. We also talk about the effect of financing, which is, you know, particularly important for policymakers because we talk about the difficulty maybe in financing the purchase of an electric vehicle, and the effect of interest rates and how that how that affects this priority point. And you can see here, a couple more lessons, but I encourage anyone that goes on to the page to have a quick read through those. And also, what we'll do is, I'll give you my email address again and if anyone has questions, please feel free to reach out. For now we're going to look at the basic version. I'm a consumer at the small bit here. And what we have is we have a number of example regions, we have India, Indonesia, South Africa, and these were chosen not for really any other reason than geographic diversity. So we wanted to get some countries from different parts of the world that have different, for example, ways of financing loans. In India, for example, when you want to borrow to finance the purchase of a vehicle, the loan term can be quite short and the interest rates quite high, whereas in Europe, the interest rates tend to be a little bit lower and the term is a lot longer. And we also have today, which is the costs in around 2022 and around 10 years from now, we choose, we chose the terms today and around 10 years from now, because again, we're not trying to produce like a very very positive ownership. We want people to be able to use the tool to understand the relationships between the different variables. I'll skip just briefly to the different kinds of cars. We have small, medium pickup and SUV. And if you change where you are in the world, you might see more or less options. And that's because the small, medium, large pickup truck is an attempt to try and be like a global average for these. So for example, in the United States, when we say small car, that would probably more accurately translate to a medium or even a large car in other parts of the world. And we have different powertrains here. Diesel, petrol, petrol, hybrid, plug-in hybrid, battery electric, and we have some explainers on what these different types are. So again, I encourage anyone that maybe doesn't have all of the background knowledge or wants to learn a little bit more wants to make sure that what they're, what they think is happening is correct. You can take on any of these information bubbles, and it will give you some additional background. But very quickly, because I know the audience today is maybe from a very background. When we talk about diesel, we talk about a diesel engine, so no spark plugs, generally a little bit heavier, often used for commercial use, so like for vans and trucks. When we talk about petrol, this is the most common engine that we see around the world. And then this is where it gets a bit more tricky is we have a petrol hybrid. This is something like a Toyota Prius, where we cannot plug the car in. So what it is, is like a more efficient powertrain. It uses a combination of a very small battery and a motor to try and save the energy that's usually lost during braking and return that to the car. And allows the engine to run at a much more efficient manner. In a plug-in hybrid, we're able to plug the vehicle in, and that means that a significant portion of the energy used to drive the vehicle along can come from electricity. So the difference between petrol hybrid and plug-in hybrid is a much bigger battery in a plug-in hybrid, the ability to charge from a wall socket, let's say, or charge along the highway. And what we can do is we can drive the vehicle in electric mode, so you can have fully electric mode, or if you're going on a long journey, for example, the vehicle can automatically switch over to using petrol. And then finally, battery electric, probably the one that we're familiar with at this stage, is where all of the energy of the vehicle comes from a battery. So if there's any questions on this, please feel free to stop me. And but I think, you know, it's important that we're on the same page there. Also, then we have operating costs, and we have a whole charging installation. So I'm going to really quickly just pick an example here, I think Indonesia, you know, and we're looking at the annual driving distance. And when I talk about being a policymaker or trying to make a decision, what we want people to be able to do with the tool is to play around with the different variables and see how it affects the costs. So the reason we have these lines here, and there's a bit of a kink in the line, the reason they change is because whoever is making the purchase, you know, they're paying back the loan on the vehicle for the first five years. And once the loan or the financing has finished, you can see that the costs reduce and they become just maintenance, insurance, and fuel. So the most difficult in terms of affordability period of this is the first five years. And what you can see is in this particular circumstance. So in Indonesia, we have a much higher total cost of ownership for the battery electric vehicle. But the advantage we know of a battery electric vehicle is that the running costs are lower. So if we were to drive more than 10,000, let's say 25,000 kilometers a year, we can see that that gap reduces. So as we play with the variables, one of the important things with this tool is that the results will update in real time. So we have somebody driving quite a lot. And now we can say, like, our fuel costs here so that we know that the fuel costs are a huge factor. And if our petrol and diesel, for example, was more expensive, we can see what that does to the ability to reach this cost parity. Remember, the point at which these lines cross over is when one technology becomes maybe more expensive than the other. And you can see the same thing here if we play around with the electricity costs. You can see that it means the higher the electricity costs, the more difficult it will be for the battery electric vehicle to compete. And these are lessons that make sense to us. But what it would mean is maybe you as a user from Indonesia could come along and see at what price must my electricity be for my battery electric or my plug in hybrid vehicle to be competitive with traditional internal combustion engine. We have another way of demonstrating the results here. And that's the breakdown of TCO. And again, this is helpful for, you know, if I was to design a policy, what's the biggest chunk of the costs and therefore where can I have the most impact. So, looking here, we have the vehicle cost. We have the purchasing taxes, you have financing. We have electricity purchase insurance and other costs, and we can directly compare the two power trains here. We can see that obviously purchasing the normal petrol vehicle is much, much cheaper than purchasing and our battery electric. And therefore, if I was a policy maker, I might say I could insist to try and calculate or to try and estimate the effect of a purchase subsidy, for example. So I was like, what purchase subsidy will I need to offer in order for the battery electric vehicle to offer the same cost as a petrol. That all makes sense. I understand that I may be moving a little bit quickly, and that's because I want to leave a lot of time at the end for questions. So if anyone has any questions right now or Jason, if you see any popping up, please feel free to let me know. Yes, there's one quick question in the chat machine. The participant is asking if TCO tool is applicable for electrobuses. So I tried to maybe mention that pretty at the start, we have ambitions to try and expand this to different vehicle segments, such as two and three leaders and buses, because we understand particularly, you know, in Asia and in different parts of the world, these are the places where electric mobility is really having the most impact. But right now, this only works, let's say with passenger cars, but if I wanted to try and model a bus, what I can do is I'll very quickly switch the advanced version and I'll show you kind of how we can almost hack the tool to try and allow that to happen. So if we go in here, what we have is this custom option and custom. What it does is it allows us to adjust all of the variables to a much greater degree. So when we're in Argentina, for example, and we have all of the things like our vehicle costs, our import taxes, what we do is we assume default values for these and the kind of upper and lower limits are based on what's reasonable for that region. But if we go to like I said that custom option, what we've done is you can, the minimum and the maximum are much, much greater than they would have been before. So if I was a user, I'm going to say in Kenya, where I wanted to try and compare, for example, a diesel bus to a battery electric bus, what I could do would be to try and, you know, go to the highest category I can go into custom. And now if I had an idea of how much my electric bus will cost and how much my diesel bus would cost, I can try and put those costs in here and see what effect that has. But the other thing I would suggest maybe is when using this tool, what's more important than trying to model specific examples is trying to understand the effect of changing the different variables on the total. So this is very much from the consumer's perspective. So when, when we're looking at the results here, we should try and interpret them as if we're somebody making a purchasing decision. And when we're a policymaker, we should probably look at this in terms of how do I make electron mobility more attractive to potential users in my country. And I talk about things often in terms of affordability, and that would be trying to make your monthly repayments, you know, manageable, and at least similar or less than what they would have been with the traditional internal combustion engine. And we also talk about, like we said, total cost. So even if our monthly repayments were higher for a certain period, if at the end of the vehicle's lifetime we spent substantially less money than we would have on a traditional engine, that's that's a key takeaway as well. So I'm going to go back to our advanced version. And you can see here if I click between the basic, the number of ways that we can change the operations are quite limited. But in our advanced case, we have much, much more control over what it is that we're trying to calculate. So we have much more control over the vehicle cost. So let's say, for example, we're in, what do we say, I think Ukraine is a member country. We're going to go medium vehicles so we're looking at Ukraine. We're looking at making the decision around about today. We're driving let's say 20,000 kilometers per year. And we're looking at a medium car. We can say, okay, we expect a battery electric vehicle to cost around 24,000 US dollars. The reason we use US dollars here is because again, rather than trying to make this specific to each region, we're trying to impart different lessons. And we're comparing that to a petrol. And what we can see is even even at $25,000. And then our petrol vehicle being about $16,000. We're quite close to cost priority here. So what do we need to do perhaps as a policymaker we could say, if we reduce the import taxes on our bev, you know, so instead of an important tax of 20%, we're going to 10%. We've made a huge difference in terms of the technology costs there. If we reduce our registration tax so we have preferential tax rate on electric vehicles. You know, again, we can see that it's making a big difference from proving the cost case of our battery electric vehicle. We will assume perhaps that there's no CO2 taxes being applied to battery electric vehicles. And then the residual value is something that's typical to calculate. But, you know, we might, we might assume that in 10 years time, which is, you know, how long these analyses are taking in 10 years time, our PEB might still be worth $2,000. We can also look then as our operating costs. So we're looking at insurance, you know, I would imagine maybe insurances is an issue for electric vehicles what happens if that increases. And we're looking at maintenance costs. And we have our different costs for electricity. And what we can do is we can play around with all of these. And again, see the effects on total cost of ownership. I'll jump to really quickly before we give people a chance to ask a couple more questions. Is this financing cost? What we often see in developing markets is that the financing conditions being offered on electric vehicles are less favorable than they are for traditional vehicles. And this makes sense in terms of how premiums and sorry, low rates and stuff are usually calculated, which is a function of risk. And I think there's a perception that the risk in lowering out for EVs is maybe higher than it is for traditional vehicles. And maybe the issue with that or the key lesson here for policymakers is that favorable financing conditions are arguably more important for electric vehicles than they are for traditional vehicles. Because we have that high upfront cost, if we're borrowing a lot of money to pay that back and we're being charged a high rate of interest, it really penalizes electric vehicles more than it penalizes traditional vehicles. And so what we can do is we can say, OK, if the financing conditions were the same for both, so if we were charged the same rate of interest, we can see it makes an improvement. And then if we were able to offer greater loan lengths, so rather than asking people to pay back the full value of an electric vehicle of five years, if we get people eight years, we can see that this makes a huge difference to the affordability. So the slope of that line is almost akin to the monthly repayments that will be required. So we have a more steep line. For example, if we ask people to pay the loan back in three years, what you're doing is you're asking for more money per month. And therefore the savings in terms of fuel of an electric vehicle versus a traditional vehicle aren't enough to help even out that. So we want to essentially offer maybe longer term lengths and you see and that means that our monthly or annual costs from electric vehicle are now actually less than they are for a traditional engine. So even if we make them similar. So what we see here is, even after all of the next thing so we have an electric vehicle here that's like 19,000 US dollars versus a petrol that is $12,000. That's a really significant difference in upfront costs, you know, seven seven thousand dollars. But because the running costs or the fuel costs and maintenance of an electric vehicle are so much lower than internal combustion engine. Just by adjusting the financing conditions, what you can see here is that the costs of a battery electric and a petrol become very, very similar. And even at the end, once we paid off our loan, we actually find that we have some cost savings by using electric vehicle versus petrol. And now obviously what I'm doing here is I'm adjusting the variables to try and find the case that's most favorable to battery electric. And I wouldn't encourage you to go well beyond the realms of like what's reasonable here, but I would encourage you to play around with the variables and therefore get a sense of what is most impactful on affordability. What is most impactful on total cost of ownership, which is, you know, the concept of rather than comparing just on how much it costs to pay for our day one, how much it costs over the lifetime of the vehicle and you can use this tool to try and make that decision. Now apologies, I simultaneously went very, very quickly, but also we don't have a huge amount of time at the end. So I'm inviting a couple more questions. And hopefully, what would be great is I'll pop up my email at the end and anybody who wants to go and have a play with the tool, I encourage you to do that. Feel free to come back, ask some questions. And then if you really want to try and get some insights, you know, some policy relevant insights or even just insights relevance to some of your stakeholders. For example, maybe someone has a fleet of vehicles and are considering is now the time to go for electric. Will I be able to benefit from this? What needs to happen for me to save money buying an electric vehicle versus an internal combustion engine? Come to us and we'll help you to try and use the tool to answer those questions. So I'm going to leave the tool on the screen because sometimes it can be helpful for answering the questions and stuff. But if anyone wants to chime in, now is a good time. Victor for us. So just a quick comment and a quick question. As you said, I wanted to stress that this is useful for policymakers because they are able to estimate the impacts of programs on taxes or on subsidies, both on the incentive side on electric vehicles, but also as these incentives for petrol vehicles because you can combine actions in both types of segments of vehicles. But it's also interesting for fleet owners as you mentioned because from the other side you can test what will be the effect of a program from the government in terms of tax cuts or whether a subsidy the government has proposed, it will be enough for you to make viable operations with the vehicles. And also it can help you to distill about what operational changes may be required because sometimes you need to change the way in which you operate to make a new fleet work. And I think it's quite important and you can test and play with it a lot and it can help you to your decision making. But one of the questions I have is, as you mentioned before about insurance and residual value costs, because especially the countries in which we operate these vehicles are very new and there is basically no data about residual value in the country and even on insurance. So what we try, at least in my case, I've tried to check other sources from the US, but it's a bit difficult to find like sources of data for that and what to consider. And I think it's very important for fleet owners in particular. Do you have some advice about where to check and which, you know, which type of sources are more viable than others or that were you at the IA you compile data from different countries to have an average about what should be used for these assumptions. Residual value is really difficult because specifically for electric vehicles because vehicles that are now 10 years old are essentially a much, much lesser technology than what we have to date. So comparing how 10 year old vehicles have lost value over time doesn't really tell us very much about how vehicles purchase today will lose value. I think and if we use that method, there will be a tendency to really underestimate the residual value of electric vehicles bought today because number one, the battery degradation is much, much less, the range is much, much greater. You know, the battery management systems mean that things like fast charging have much less in effect. So really, the simple answer is it's really difficult to make that decision. And what I would do is if I was a fleet owner or operator or I was someone who was very worried about the residual value of my vehicle, I would go to this here and I would essentially reduce that value. You know, and what you can see is if we're looking at here, it doesn't have a huge effect. In fact, it has a very small effect on the total cost of ownership. You know, so I think this is something we as consumers overestimate the importance of. So when I buy a vehicle, I want to know that when I sell it or get rid of it in 10 years time that it still has some value. But really, how much I spend every year on petrol and diesel or electricity on maintenance has a much, much greater influence on the total cost of ownership. So as you can see here, even if I assume, you know, 3500, which is a fairly generous assumption for residual value versus all the way down to zero, it has an almost negligible effect on the total cost of ownership. So one thing that this tool is also good for is maybe testing our implicit assumptions on what we think is important. I would say, and, you know, if we if we go to how much I drive, you know, we've seen here when I maxed out and minimized the residual value. If I drive a couple more thousand kilometers per year, either way, has a much, much greater difference. So the big things here and something this tool is helpful for is really telling us what the important variables are and what the ones that are not so important. So I think, number one, it's really difficult to calculate residual value, but also it's not really that important in terms of total cost of ownership. I think there was one other thing you said there about not just calculating how to make be these more attractive. You also talked about, you know, the disincentives for for traditional vehicles. And I think that's really important. And that's also something we can do here. So if I was the policymaker, you know, I can say increase the registration tax for my petrol, you know, I can increase my import taxes. And you can see here, this is a way of generating revenue that can be used in perhaps to subsidize electric vehicles. And something that I think, you know, my work on the to really highlighted for me was this, you know, capital subsidy versus financing conditions, because if, you know, it's very normal and for for governments to offer, for example, 2000 US you know, I'm Irish and Ireland, it's, you know, somewhere between two and 5000 Euro, very, very generous subsidies, very expensive to the government. But if I if I reduce by 2000, you know, my cost here, I can still see that the petrol has a lower total cost of ownership, whereas I can go to my financing conditions. And really, this is, you know, in terms of say, it might be more difficult politically, but it would be a much lower cost solution. If I can just offer better financing conditions on my electric vehicles, you know, we see that as a huge impact on the affordability. So rather than focusing on expensive and perhaps of limited value capital grants governments could focus on offering favorable financing conditions, which would make electric vehicles more affordable, it would make them more widely available to people who have access to finances. And this, these are the kind of lessons rather than me just demonstrate the tool and talk for too long. It would be fantastic for people to go in and play around the variables understand what's important, what's not so important, and maybe try and test some of your assumptions on what's an effective and what's not so effective and understand, am I trying to make electric vehicles cheaper or am I trying to make them, you know, more affordable and more widely available because they're not always the same thing. Yes, thank you Shane. We have two more questions in the Q&A box. One question is, what is the most pessimistic scenario for electricity price increase in the model for 10 years. We actually assume no change in electricity prices. So the way our default values are calculated is they're like, let's say a weighted average of the last two to two years in each region. And we don't make any attempt to try and project values here. But what we do is we give users the ability to change those. I think we have upper and lower limits that are based on kind of historical prices. And what I would say, maybe just I'll switch the basic version to make it easier to see. But what we do is based on each region, we have an upper limit and a lower limit. You know, I think it would be maybe not so beneficial for somebody to be able to say electricity will be free. And it also doesn't make a lot of sense for people to say electricity will be, you know, two euro per kilowatt hour. So we have upper and lower limits. And we encourage people to, you know, mess around with these and see how that would affect things. You know, traditionally we would have said that there's more volatility in liquid fossil fuel prices, so petrol and diesel. But I mean that's not to say that electricity prices won't also move. So I mean, I hope I've answered that. We don't make projections, we just allow users to move between reasonable limits. The other question is one of the key issues facing the widespread of immobility on the national level is the lack of technical knowledge and anxieties related to it. What are the current existing training programs and activities related to immobility in the training academy. And the other question is, do you think this is enough to develop the professional competence of engineers to improve the adoption levels of immobility on the national level. I might suggest, Victor, that that's a question more through you and EBRD than to the IEA. Yeah, I think so. So let's say that in terms of trainings, we had training on electric buses as part of this annual event this year, but there may be others in the future in cooperation with UATP and the activities of the working group two, I think, or three. In addition, we are right now delivering a training program on EVs going from policy to be charging material recycling and implementation of these of these policies as well. So I can share more information but I'm through through my email but yeah I mean we are currently delivering that one. We will be disseminating additional work undertook by IEA and UNEP and other stakeholders of the global program through this type of workshops. So I think it's important to stay aware of when these workshops are happening. And I would also say that in addition to that the IEA, you also do a lot of different workshops on immobility on different areas because if you go to the IEA website you can go to events. And you will have access to lots of previous seminars on different topics, which are some of them very, very interesting. What else? One of the comments was about whether this is enough to build capacity in each of the countries. I would say no, you need also support at the local level. You need consultation with the different stakeholders from the public and private sector and that's what or like what we call child projects of the program, which are these projects that are being implemented at national level by the different UN agencies and financed by the Jeff as well. And that's what they are doing. They are developing national policies, they are implementing pilots and they are trying to create a local network and delivering also local capacity building seminars in which we sometimes participate as well. So I think that there are different group of activities that are done from the platform for the white public like these ones and others are specific countries. For more information, please just send me an email and we can follow up on this. I just spotted one more or one question in the chat that I was talking about professionals. And I think that's a really good point because when we develop this tool, we really made an effort to try and make it simple. And also from the perspective of somebody perhaps, you know, making a purchasing decision. And with respect to kind of policy insights, we almost invite policymakers to get inside the mind of somebody, you know, who's who genuinely when you're making a purchasing kind of decision and torn between whether be these or Pugin hybrids or petrol or diesel is the best choice for them. I don't think we maybe as policymakers or policy kind of focus people often appreciate what happens, you know, in terms of, you know, when people make decisions. If, for example, I think that the key, the key example here is, you know, subsidies offering, you know, a capital of grants towards purchase of an electric vehicle is a simple way it's often very attractive, but it doesn't do a lot for, you know, improving the affordability for for many people. So I know this is not very professionally focused, but that was done intentionally, if I want to say it like that. And then in terms of expanding the tool, I don't believe we'll be expanding the tool into kind of a professional setting. I think there are lots of tools out there that maybe will do a better job of that. And if you would like, feel free to give us an email and we can try and send you some links to maybe some of those more, more details at PCO tools. Victor. Yeah, if we still have time for one more question from my side, it's just to understand in the advanced version of the tool. One of the things that a lot of our clients have when considering electrification in their fleet is the, you know, basically the range and autonomy and the cost of power per kilometer. So how this is integrated in the in the tool because I understand the limits of the tool. I understand that you can vary the operational cost that would represent like the cost per kilometer. But that the dimension of range and autonomy is not here. So you have to take that on the side and do the calculations a lot in terms of operations, right? How to make this work. Yeah, I think so for example, if you were someone who has daily mileage limits of like more than 500 kilometers, the first and most important thing would be, you know, does a battery electric or a plug in hybrid, you know, satisfy my requirements. I think if you're somebody for whom, you know, the range anxiety is not just, you know, necessarily in your head if you've done the calculations and this is something we're really, you're not sure whether battery electric vehicle will meet your needs. I would probably suggest looking at a plug in hybrid. And this is almost like work that has to be done before using the TCO tool. So if you're using the TCO tool and you're comparing options, you should be maybe quite confident that they will meet your needs. Or if you wanted to go the other way around and say, oh, giving my kind of duty cycles, my annual mileage, there's a big potential here for cost savings of the battery electric. And that then will encourage you to go and look and see if the battery electric vehicle could meet your needs. So like these are kind of almost two pieces of homework that have to be done somewhat independently. Yeah, I see, because I remember we had a client that was a delivery company, and that while they were thinking about that defined their fleets, they had to reorganize entirely their service and the structure of warehouses and things like that to make this work, but actually they had a lot of savings things to electrification. So yeah, it goes to the two like streams of work that are required in parallel. That kind of brings us nicely up to something because when we think of electric vehicles. Sometimes we rule them out based on on hypotheticals that are very, very uncommon. You know, so for example, when I was living at home, and like I'm looking to live in a small private world, very, very rarely would I travel more than 300 kilometers in a day. But people might often say that the battery electric vehicle isn't suitable for them because once a year, they visit relatives, and they have to drive 500 kilometers improvements and things like charging improvements in availability of, you know, motorway charging and stuff like that means that the number of users for which a battery electric vehicle is suitable is expanding all the time. And if I was a company and I had, you know, there was some huge potential cost savings in terms of, you know, switching to electricity from petrol and diesel. So I would probably look at the changes from my logistics that would enable that, you know, so if, if I have to maybe have one more driver, and rather than asking one person to drive so many more kilometers in a day. How does that balance out, you know, just paying one more driver, and then moving to electricity allow for cost savings, or should I just stick with what I know. So I think some changes to practices and logistics here could open up the opportunity for big cost savings when moving to electrification. If do we have anyone else or not. I'm just going to very quickly then pop my email on the screen. If you have any questions about the tool or they would like to contact us, please feel free to use that email address there. I might also just pop it into the chat. Thank you Jason. So thank you very much everyone for listening. It was a very, very quick, but the idea here is to introduce you to the tool to give you an idea of what it might be capable of. Ideally for you to go off and to to play around and to then maybe come back with some questions. So hopefully I'll hear from you over the next couple of days. And thanks very much for listening. And would you like to give a last couple words Victor. Well, just, of course, thank you very much Shane and to the AI for delivering this seminar. And just to as a reminder that there will be another one next week on the 14th on the EBITAR's integration tools. So that will be also be very interesting and I invite you to come and that there will be also other knowledge sharing activities in the coming weeks and months. So please stay posted and for any additional information, please contact me. Other than that, thank you very much and I wish you a good day. Bye. Bye bye. Thank you.