 Hi, all. This is Leilani speaking for those of you who may not have seen me yet today. White skin, long dark hair, big red glasses, bright red lips, dark shiny nails. You'll probably see the nails and hands as much as the rest of the face because I just speculate when I talk. I am just sort of welcoming folks into the space as we head into one of our last two performances of the convening with Theater Kapow. Now we have three members of the ensemble present with us and there's going to be very little facilitation for me at least to get us started. So again, just letting folks come into the space. Thank you to those of you I'm seeing a few folks who have been with us for all or most of the day. Thank you for your participation and presence and attention. And I'm really excited to see to share this piece and conversation with you. Can I share the video now. Hi everybody just welcome welcome and yes by all means Derek please press play up Matthew yes. Yeah, you want to set context. We were going to set a little bit of context but first off, my name is Matt Kahun. I'm the artistic director of theater Kapow. I'm a white man with no hair. Because of my advanced age my glasses will go on and off throughout the conversation, wearing a blue shirt today with a silver tie. Thank you all for joining us. The, the piece we're going to look at today is called the boy that was a play that was commissioned by theater Kapow and written by a playwright named AJ Diddy. This was actually commissioned pre pandemic. Carrie had an idea for theater Kapow to do something with Ibsen's play pure gint. We didn't exactly know what to do with it. And we looked at several editions of the play of pure gint and one of them was the 1963 archer edition which contained illustrations by Peter named Pierre Krogue. And when we read about Pierre Krogue. It turns out that he was imprisoned in the grizzly and the griny prison camp in Norway during World War two. Norway, many people don't think about kind of the Nazi occupation of Norway but the Nazis, the Germans were occupying occupying Norway from 1940 to 1944. And while imprisoned at griny, Pierre Krogue spent his time covering the walls of his cell with images from Norwegian folklore primarily from Ibsen's pure gint. And so, after the war, the, they actually Krogue and his publisher went back to griny and transcribed the images from the wall onto paper and then those images became the illustrations for the 1963 archer edition of the play. We found that as interesting as pure gint was as a play, the story of Pierre Krogue actually was a more relevant and richer space perhaps for exploration in creating our own piece. And so what you're going to see today is three scenes from the boy featuring these two actresses here with us today, and a few others, notably and I think important in terms of the context. The playwright specified that all of the prisoners be played by by female identifying performers, and that the Nazis be played by male identifying performers. So you're going to see Odd Nansen and Pierre Krogue and Robert Rifling as characters who were who were real life men performed by by women and I just wanted to give that contextual baseline so that it made a little bit more sense as you watched it. Since you're watching it a little bit out of context but we are ready now Derek to watch three scenes from the boy. Good afternoon. Before we begin today's presentation, we would like to offer this land acknowledgement. For theater kapao in our studio space and for me today this sharing takes place on and Akina, the traditional ancestral homelands of the Abenaki, Wabanaki and Pena cook peoples past and present. We do this to honor the land and waterways and the albana who have stewarded in Dakhna throughout the generations. This moment calls us to commit to continuing to learn how to be better stewards of the land we inhabit. We do this to pay respect to the Abenaki, Wabanaki and Pena cook peoples and their elders past present and emerging. We hope to inspire greater curiosity among non-native peoples about the land on which they live to halt the erasure of indigenous history and to encourage the support of indigenous communities both locally and globally. We invite and encourage you to learn more about the indigenous communities where you live and work. Thank you. First to be making those awful jumping jacks, we could put that wood to good use. The scene is about Gint giving one last story to his dying mother. It doesn't mean puppets. Mikhail is an excellent wood curver. Isn't that right Mikhail? Mostly carved tables. I'd imagine it's the same concept but with eyes. You hear that odd? It's like a table with eyes. If it doesn't work, it doesn't work but at least we'll know. Mikhail? Yes sir. Do you think you could carve us a puppet? I could try. Well give it a try. Also, I don't want to play Asa. What? Why? I am a bad actor. Francis, it's alright. We all have our strengths and mine is clearly staying as far away from the stage as humanly possible. Then who, may I ask, is going to play Peer Gint's mother, huh? Robert? Oh no, I get terrible stage fright. Robert, you are a musician. I know, it's a real problem. Well there is no one else. I'll do it. Literally, no one else. You boy, get up here. Ugh, I'll feed you the lines. No father, I've been listening all night. I might like a bear trap. I'll just go fuck myself. That would be wonderful, thank you. There when she died, what was it like? The room? Put yourself there. It was cold. Down. She was coughing. What did it smell like? Mildew and rot. Good, smell that air. Why, Peer, what ringing do I hear? That's just the sleigh bells, nothing more. Oh, I don't like them, Peer. They sound empty somehow. Hollow. Watch out, we're going over a few hours. I don't like, I don't like, it's too much, Peer. I'm scared. Oh, what is that roaring? Just the wind through the trees, nothing to be scared of. Is that like, there, Peer, the kind that pierces through the dark? It's from the manor on the hill. Did you hear the music? They must be dancing. Isn't that nice? It is. It is nice. We're Peer Ginten company, and we want inside. What do you say, St. Peter? You want to open the gate? My mom's the real deal. Let's see if you want to pour me a drink. You see me next. That's the plan. Normally they give us scraps, kindling, most of it, but for the common dance jumping deck, they tried to get us the best stuff they could. It's good, right? Don't work in wood too much. It will do. Did a sketch of what the puppet should look like? It's a fantasy version of Gint, so it can be a bit over the top. You know, a big grin, big muscles. I guess, however you imagine yourself, when you see yourself in dreams, is probably a good way to go. I understand. I suppose I'll let you get to it. Denser thinks it's just me in here being a toy maker, so try not to make too much noise. Can I ask you something? Of course. That painting on the Wall of the Barric, what was it? It's of Peer Gint fighting the boy. Traditionally, it's a snake monster that keeps travelers from where they're going, mostly by eating them. Your painting didn't look like a servant to me. Well, Ibsen portrays it as this great, unknowable, nothingness, a diversion on the path to, I don't know, self-actualization. We never actually see it in the play. I liked it. Odd said you hadn't painted in a long time. No, not since... Not since Vital, actually. That's the work camp in the north, correct? I've talked to some of the prisoners who were transferred from there. It sounds terrible. Wasn't my favorite thing, no. What happened to you up there? Your father was a woodcarver. What about your mother? You haven't really talked about her. What was she like? She was a school teacher. She died before I came here. I'm so sorry. I was out drinking. We had gotten in a fight. She found out I had thrown stones at some Nazis on the street and was furious with me. How could I endanger myself like that? I could have been killed. How did I not understand that? I didn't understand how she could just sit there. I didn't think she'd come looking for me. Winters aren't particularly kind to those who don't prepare for them. She got sick. She was said a few days later. In my grief, I may or may not have thrown a larger stone at a more important Nazi. This time I hit home. And now I'm here. I thought you said you were here because you destroyed an entire civilization. Hitting that German bastard was the last straw I suppose. This one. Why that one? Certain wood contains certain properties. Birch feels different than oak. It emanates an energy. My father carved most of our furniture out of birch. Our dining room table. He carved little trolls in the legs. Taught me to believe in the magic of the forest. That dining room table felt like home. I like working in birch. So there is magic in the forest? Yes. What kind of magic? Magic folk. A whole kingdom beneath the ground. You talk like you've seen it. Of course I have. You don't believe me? No. But you're Norwegian. I thought all Norwegians believed in the magic of the forest. I grew up in Paris mostly. Not a lot of room for superstition in the French art scene. Not a lot of Norwegian superstition. Suit yourself. Go on then. No, no. You said you weren't a believer. Well make me one then. What was it like? There are stone fountains, but no water runs through them. They look like ruins. Everything is carved out of the rock wall. The trolls were nice. There had recently been a coup. The troll king had been overthrown. It's a republic now. Every troll has an equal say. They thought that discussion could rebuild them from the ashes. They were wrong because there is a feature down in the depths. Nobody's ever seen it in its presence. It's familiar. It's something creeping in the corner of your vision. But when you turn to look, it's nothing. I've no name for it. No troll ever ventured down into its lair and returned to the television. But they knew it was there. Waiting. They sealed it away. Locked it up beneath their city. It inspires badness and all look upon it. Disappearing. But they asked me, begged me, would I face it? Would I fight it the way the other one had long ago? What choice did I have? I made my way down a long spiraling staircase, torch in hand. It seemed to descend forever. I had walked so far down that when I looked up, the light was almost completely gone. The air became cold, with a taste like mildew and rot. I think that there was no end when I heard it. Breathe in. It was soft, just at the edge of my hearing, but I could hear it in and out. The smacking of wet jaws, the grinding of teeth. I continued down, under by darkness. He's alright. He's had stomach ulcers for years, I guess one or two of them must have been trying to keep him company. But you came back. I don't like the infirmary. It's too... It feels too close to the outside world. Makes me think we're closer than we are, and hope is the first thing to get you in here. Too much of it becomes toxic. So thank you for that, I guess. I didn't mean to send your friend to the infirmary. Do you stand by what you said? I do. You think I'm a coward? I didn't say that. You think it, though. I think you're not being honest with yourself. Oh, really? And you're certainly not being honest with me. That's rich, coming from the king of the fucking trolls. What happened? At vital. Believe me or don't, but I have been nothing but honest with you. A boy can't know about the order. I'm not a boy. I'm so sick of you all patronizing me. I can take care of myself. But like all those men in barracks, six can wake up and realize you are a sheep surrounded by starving wolves. What is it going to take to scare you? I used to be scared. I used to be terrified all the time. But now? And if they try to take me, I'll fight. Very last breath, and if I die, I'll have died taking a Nazi with me. But you'd still be dead. Some things are worth dying for. Some of us don't want you to die. McKay, maybe I don't want you to die. You took a liking to me? Father was heard I had studied with Matisse and started isolating me. Pulling me out of the work lineup, making me paint for him. End up there, strikes through your heart and freezes it. It's amazing how quickly you go numb. It was okay at first that I was getting to paint. While my fellow prisoners froze out in the snow, building a bridge to nowhere. Everything I made was his. He acted as if he owned me. And I'm not sure he was wrong. I started to feel like a ghost. Like I was disappearing from my own life like all my friends and loved ones had forgotten me. Like he existed at all. There was a fewer, about a 30 minute walk from camp. It was the only place we could do all our washing. It was always a nightmare to get to walking that far in the snow. You don't realize how exhausted you are until it's... I was standing at the edge of the river watching the water rushing by me. And I thought about the walk back and I thought about the work and I thought about the cold in my shoes and the voice at the back of my mind said, just be easier. Just be easier. The guards thought it was an accident. Thought I'd slipped on the edge of the bank and tumbled in. But Odd knew. I knew he knew. I could see it in his eyes. The look he gave me. If all I was good for was making art for monsters. What was the point of me? What's the point of me? When no one else would when no one else were not a ghost. Not me. You know what's the first thing I'm going to do when I get out of here? I'm going to make a whole army of marionettes. I'll make a whole army of marionettes and then you all can put on a five and a half hour production of piergint using nothing but puppets. That sounds awful. It really does. Just trying to do something you liked. And what will you do when you get out? Sleep past six in the morning for a start. That sounds wonderful. Meet some food with some fucking flavor. Magnificent. A studio with paintings. Oh, to have access to a palette again. You paint me when you get out. Go traveling. See the world. I'd love to go to Morocco. I've heard marvelous things. Egypt. I don't think I'd ever want to see Norway again. I wouldn't blame you. Don't give up here. Got a lot to fight for. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for the taste of. Of the boy by AJ Diddy. I realized a couple of little things of context. I probably should have added one. One fairly significant one is. That AJ's primary source for the writing actually came from. A concentrate. A concentration camp memoir by Od Nansen, which is the character that Kerry played in the, in the book. It ends up being a very long book. He wrote. Journal entries over the course of his day in greeny. And he shared a. A cell. They were in barrack 12. With. A pier croak. And we end up. Most really. That we know about pier croak comes through that memoir that Od Nansen wrote. He wrote to the museum. There is a museum there at greeny. And when I wrote to them and asked about pier croak, all they could really tell me was where he stayed in his prisoner number. And they had a painting. They had a painting that featured him. Francis bull and Od Nansen sitting and playing cards together. They didn't really know anything beyond that about pier croak. And so. They had a lot. A J had to do a lot of work in terms of doing the research. And then of course, these actors had to do a lot of work in terms of. You know, not only preparing their roles as they sat on the scripted page, but also finding out as much as they could kind of about the real people that they were portraying. So. Rather than listening to me, I'd love to. Have Rachel and Kerry talk. I'm going to ask you to talk a little bit about the development process as we moved from. You know, developing commissioning and developing a play during COVID is very difficult. So maybe you can talk a little bit about the process of how we went through readings and then how eventually we got into rehearsal and to performance. Sure. My name is Rachel Longo. I'm coming to you from Andover, Massachusetts, and I have blonde hair. I am white and I'm wearing a green sweater. So this was a long process. It actually began even earlier with just the discussions with Matt and Kerry having discussions around creating a piece, perhaps a devised piece around pure gint. And then we did some workshop exploration with the paintings of pure Krog as that became an idea and then some time went by and then AJ was commissioned to write an actual script that we would use for the project. So that was, you know, over the course of a few years. And then we had. I believe we had scheduled the production to go up. I think we had scheduled the fall 2000. June 2020. Thank you. June 2020. That did not happen. But it did give us some time to do some zoom readings with the cast and it ended up being pretty much. I'm not mistaken. Completely the same cast that we ended up almost the same cast that we went into production with, you know, and then this kind of quicker process that a lot of our projects would be. It gave us time to read drafts of the scripts script and then get new ones from AJ and read them through a couple of times on zoom and have some feedback and some discussions among the production team. Here's some ideas about design and lighting and set. And then we had to do that together and have it marinate and spend time with the script and take the time to do the research and get to know our characters. When we came into a pretty quick, abbreviated intensive process in person rehearsals, when we did end up coming back together to put it up at Pinkerton Academy. We had sort of established a language around the play. We had established an understanding of the history and the importance of coming together of these two. This character and this historic figure and. We're able to also really work in the space and on the set for the majority of our few weeks of rehearsal. We had an intensive rehearsal process. And that's sort of an actor's dream in terms of the repetition of that repetition is sort of our best friend when it comes to music. We were able to really explore the set from the beginning. Even costumes were ready. And so we were really able to get to know sort of the physicality. We were able to explore the space and the opportunities that have presented to us. It was sort of a physical, physically demanding show because we did. At least I did climb bump beds a lot. And that was something you had to explore and get used to. And there were some safety things with the tables and standing on them. But just it just felt like, you know, the seamless direction of the transitions by Matt made it just sort of feel like a dance. Honestly, like a choreographed piece of movement that was always flowing. And it was a really. It was really fun to explore what we could do with the set sounds we could create with the slamming doors. You saw that in one of the clips just now. And the importance of the objects that they did have because there were only so either were so few of those. So I would say that. And sort of that extended process really was very valuable to get to know the piece to get to know the team. And it became a really intimate experience. That was really, really wonderful. Yeah. And one thing Rachel touched upon. We had designers in the room from day one, literally our scenic designer lighting designer and Carrie did the costumes were all there as part of the process from our very first rehearsal from our very first draft reading. And Rachel touched upon a couple of things. Carrie that I'm going to kind of ask you about. We did have the set. Pretty early on in the rehearsal process. We also had the costumes. You as the, the actress playing Od Netson also took the time to read from day to day, which is odds memoir. Could you talk a little bit about, you know, the importance of period accuracy in a contemporary play that's really kind of historic fiction and how do we marry those characters? Absolutely. My name is Carrie. I am a white woman with blonde hair wearing a, it looks black on screen shirt and an oatmeal colored sweater. And I am in New Hampton, New Hampshire. One of the. Delightful things about. This particular project was, it was a very, very long time ago. So it was a very long time ago. So it was really like historical. Accuracies, but what were the things that we wanted to point to when we did that? Because of course. All of the male characters, all of the prisoners are played by women. So even though we're striving for historical accuracy, we've also kind of broken that a little bit. So we had to be very intentional about what things did. And so I will. Point to our amazing scenic designer who is not here with us today, but he is in spirit with us. Dan Daly who really did a lot of research. And if you look at some pictures from the Greenie museum, the, the bunks, the, the room, the barrack is really exactly. As it. You know, they weren't really their own possessions. They were, you know, they're assigned mug, and they're assigned set of silverware. You know, but other things that they, you know, if they had some cigarettes, cigarettes become currency in the barrack as they. Still remain currency in, in some places. And, you know, so they could, they could hide their stuff away. And so it was really their space and their bunk. You know, each prisoner's bunk was really their space. And having time to make that space our space was really great. But Dan was, Dan was really amazing about making, making things historically accurate when they needed to be, but also making them theatrical when they needed to be to break or to send focus in a particular way. One of the things that was very interesting about this play and this process and that I did take a lot in reading Nansen's diary entries, which is essentially what they are from his time in the prison are this notion of how do I retain myself? How do I retain myself under extraordinarily difficult circumstances? And the not so funny thing is that of course for all of us, the, the process of the creation of this play. No, it was not happening under circumstances nearly as difficult. Right. Let's, let's take that context. But the reality of what does my art mean? What does my art mean now? If my art, you know, the art of theater, right, reaching out to communicate with others, I'll harken back to something Shoshana referenced in talking about Sandglass's work that here we are during this pandemic and we are, we have no choice but to breathe one another's air. And that, you know, we're in the middle of a phase in creating this work when breathing someone else's air is, is terrifying. And, you know, what, what do we as theater artists, what, you know, what is, what was that moment two years ago? What is this moment now? You know, how can we still reach out and connect and find value in our work, which is really ultimately what this play is about that, you know, art as, art as, art as weapon. I mean, art certainly has been weaponized in many places, but art as salvation for both the artist and the receiver of that. So that was a, that started out as a really small thing and kind of morphed into a really kind of big existential philosophical thing about who we all are, what we do. But I think it's important. And, you know, in, in rewatching this just now, I was reminded of that, that so much of this process, this project started out as, as one thing and became something else entirely. And so much of that was because of what we found as we were digging, but also what we were experiencing and what AJ, our writer was experiencing in this time. You know, how do I, how do I create my art in this, in this world that I'm in now? And I think that's a, it's a beautiful thing and a hard thing. I don't know the answer. How do we create our art in this world? I think one thing that, that we as a company constantly ask ourselves, and I'm sure all the artists out there, ask yourselves when you're doing work is why this show and why now. And I think Carrie just touched upon a lot of that. And it's really fascinating to me what you just said, Carrie about the why changing over the course of the process. I hadn't really thought about that, but it certainly, it certainly did. So the, the boy for, for a little bit of background on that, the title, it's talked about in that, in that video clip, but it goes by pretty quickly. So the boy gives us a Norwegian monster in folklore, which it depends on how it's depicted. It's often depicted with like, it's kind of like a kind of like the type monster, but Ibsen reimagines it as darkness and emptiness. And, and obviously for Krog, maybe not obviously, but probably for Krog as somebody imprisoned that, that feeling of darkness and emptiness was very present in his life. And so he clearly, I wish I had brought a picture, but he, the boy is amazing. It's a man looking into a black, swirly abyss. And that, that image made it into the, into the play. But I think most importantly to AJ, not to speak for him, but AJ is somebody who, who suffers from depression. And it became really important to him to try to explain what that feels like to people who maybe have never experienced it. And so there are these long sections of the play where, where Pierre Krog has conversations with one of the Nazi officers. And the Nazi officer will say things like, you know, why do you feel so sad? Just get over it, get better, feel better. You know, people need to see you doing your work and being happy. And it was towards the very end of the process that AJ told me that those, those sections of the play were conversations he had had with one of his bosses while he was working on a play on a show. And his boss would just say, AJ, you need to do better. You need to make people happy. They're here to be happy. And his own depression, his own feelings of. Suicidal ideation entered the play in a really personal, but really affecting way. And I think, I think that in a way also redefined why this play, why now. Yeah. And so, Rachel, I know that. One of the things that you and I have talked a lot about is kind of creating, creating moments on stage as you look back at your experience in the boy. And all these fine people didn't necessarily see this, but what are some moments that kind of resonate with you still today? And Kara, you can answer this question too. What are some moments that you're really proud of those moments that you found of expressive theatrical poetry that we were able to create together as a company? I'm going to jump in before Rachel has had a chance to answer, just naming the request that you all wanted time to engage with the audience. And we are just under 10. So I am sure I speak for everyone when I say, I very much would love to hear the answers about that resonance from each of you. And as folks are answering, if you have questions, just to keep us tight on time, feel free to put them in the chat so that I can elevate them to Matt, Kerry and Rachel once Rachel and Kerry have shared these thoughts. Thank you. Thank you. There's so many. It really was like a joyful experience of theatrical moments. And it was possible because of the incredible team. But there's, there actually one of them is, is the moment where we're all sitting together. And this was a clip that we showed of, of the, of us sitting down listening to the story, the run through of the play and just having the, the ability to sit and witness that. And then how it, we're sort of immersed in that world of watching them do the reading of the play and then it breaks when Francis says, yeah, yeah, that's, that's the play. And just there were so many moments where we could sort of seamlessly shift into this sort of dreamlike state. There's so much magic in this play. And you could sort of feel it around you performing it. And I think one other. That really sort of resonates with me. So many. There's a moment where I was, we were shifting the banner and we had, I had to stand on top of the, the bunk bed and just being the perspective of being that high above that set was really quite extraordinary. Honestly, to be up above and then see the audience and see the team below me was really amazing. And one other that was really striking was when we would line up for roll call. There was just a quick moment in the play where we were called for a roll call and we would step forward and we were really close to the audience. And it's hard to describe how it felt, but it's so, it was so dehumanizing that section of the play and and the expectation to be prepared for that. And it's standing in a freezing cold to step forward and show that you were there on time, ready to go. So those are some moments, those images stand out to me. One of the things that I really enjoyed getting the opportunity to watch both in rehearsal and then. On stage. I watched it happen. I was on the periphery for this whole scene. Was the way that we handled stage violence. There's a, there's a pretty dramatic, horrible beating. That, that happens in the script. The officers beat. Paracrogue. And we worked with an amazing choreographer. And we actually did that as a, there was no contact. During that beating. And it was, it was in many ways worse. Because the actress playing Paracrogue. Kind of, I mean, she didn't do it all. The actor playing the officer, you know, did some too. But, but it was really, it was created. And it reminded me of. That what the audience is filling in. In their head. Is often so much more powerful than what we can actually create. So I think it was a, that was a great moment of. Inviting the audience in to look at something that they probably don't want to look at. And to help. And to help create. Something that they don't really actually, maybe. Hopefully that they don't really want to create, but there's a, there's a drawing in there that happens. And so that moment every night. And like I said, in the process, what, you know, watching that be created. And then watching it. Happen every night. Was very effective and something that I. Will not long. Will not forget. And then I take a lot from that. How do we invite people in? How do we invite people in? To look at things that they don't really want to look at. And then. And then what? Talk about it. Maybe. Why, where it came from. That's my answer. Yeah. Thank you. And thank you for reminding me that we should. We should shout out Lorraine Chapman. Who's an amazing choreographer local to Boston. Lorraine Chapman, the company. Is her company and Lorraine has worked with theater. Capow now on a couple of. Projects, but if you are a theater maker in the area who wants somebody who really speaks theater as a choreographer. Lorraine is incredible to work with. And not somebody who would typically be somebody you bring into stage violence on stage, but the violence that she staged was. Breathtaking. And, and yes, Claudia says in the chat that she liked the set and Carrie did mention Dan Daly. An incredible designer currently. Professor in residence at. Skidmore. And. Great, great artists. Jake Hudgens was our composer. Who did some of the craziest stuff by the way. He played for most of the sounds in the show. He played a timpani by bow stringing it with. With like a violin bow. And it was a weird, crazy sound, but also kind of spoke to what was going on in pierce head. So there were so many. We, it was a really very fortunate convening. Of. Really high level artists. I think. In part because of the pandemic, there was a lot. Of interest in being super creative again. And so the team. Not only were we comfortable with each other. But they were just like everyone was so desperate to make work. And I think that that really ended up benefiting the show tremendously. Any questions out there? And folks, you can also use voice chat as well. You don't need me to read for you. If that's more comfortable. Thank you as folks. Formulate any questions they might have. I just wanted to thank Matt, Carrie and Rachel for bringing your collaborators into. The space. And Matt, if there is an image that you had wanted to share with us, you can continue to update the performance portion on Hoover. So this is a moment where I am going to sort of plug that to our participants that you can continue to engage there and engage with each other. I, as we're waiting, if there's any questions from the sort of attendees, I would be happy to just ask about the. Motivation behind the gendered choices. I said that jumped out and I was just really interested in, that's a really strong choice to set a specific binary and to have that binary not necessarily. Align with the historical gender identities of the people you're portraying. Agreed. And I can only speak to. I can only speak to what I understand of AJ's. Intentions there, but. I, and I'll try to speak to it a little bit without, without trying to speak for him, but much of what his thought process was, was that the arts, the arts were treated as, as female pursuit in many ways. And he was looking at. These Nazi oppressors is somewhat. Obviously somewhat dehumanizing their, their prisoners. Making them less than themselves. He's, I think, clearly. I know this is me more as the English major than as, than as the person who directed the show. But I think AJ is clearly making. Some statements about the patriarchy and about. You know, the kind of toxic masculinity of men in charge. And I, I think without. First off, I decided today very purposely not to. Share any scenes with the Nazis because it just like, I just didn't need to give them any screen time. But, but I also think. Without that context, it's hard to say. How that dynamic worked. But it was. Yeah, I don't know, Carrie, do you want to speak a little bit to the way that felt to you as a theater artist or your. I think that one of the things that becomes so important is that. There is an other ring. That, that happens because. The Nazi officers are male and the prisoners are all female presenting. And. And I think that. That becomes really clear. It becomes really clear. So that's. I don't know. I'm not, I'm not sure. Well, what's going on in my brain? I don't know, Rachel, if you want to. Add anything to that, but other ring. Yeah. No, I agree. I think it just set a very clear distinction. A further distinction between the. The roles and the, and the. Freedom versus. Total not. No freedom. The prisoner versus the controller. I think that for, I thought that it really was very effective in that way to sort of separate those two. Thank you. I know that was a big question to ask with just. Minutes to go and just uplifting. I love the answer of looking at the historical context. Since Karen had brought into the space that tension between historical fiction and the fiction and the history of. The gendered perceptions and how the Nazis themselves. Gendered. People. Cultures and art. Regardless of how the individuals and cultures would have gendered themselves collectively. We are at time. We do have to shift over. We didn't build a buffer. So the next section is starting by at 445. It is a performance by our friends at gorilla opera. The zoom link is here. So we're going to shift gears. You can connect with the folks at theater. Capow via their information on who that please feel free to add any supplemental materials. You didn't feel you had a chance for. I am speed talking right now. So my apologies to Sherry and everyone who is handling this conversation. I will see you all in like 90 seconds in the next. Zoom room. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you theater. Thank you.