 I'm quite relaxed the fact that that animal is slaughtered. The animal's not relaxed, are they? They're decapitated. Should meat products carry warning labels a bit like those on cigarette packets to warn consumers of the risk that meat poses to health and to the planet? Professors at Durham University conducted an experiment where they found people were less likely to consider having meat as part of their meal when it had a warning on it. I mean, it just sounds so obvious, doesn't it? But I wonder if that means logically that this is a policy we need to bring in now in shops and supermarkets. We know, don't we? Broadly speaking, eating too much meat can be bad for us. The NHS website states eating too much red and processed meat in particular increases our risk of bowel cancer. We know the intensive farming of animals for meat can be responsible for greater CO2 emissions. And one of the warning labels, in fact, used in the tests by Durham, showed a deforested area, some factory smoke in the background and a message reading eating meat contributes to climate change. So why not have those stickers on food in the shops and in supermarkets? Some say no way. How would you apply them fairly? Would you put a label on produce from a Scottish chicken farmer the same as you would for something from the Amazon? Do we start putting warning labels on non-meat products containing environmentally damaging products like palm oil? Do we label plastic? Do we have to label, then, all ultra-processed food, et cetera, et cetera? Let's discuss this now with William Sitwell, food writer, restaurant critic for The Telegraph and judge on TV's Masterchef and Joey Carbstrong, who's an animal rights activist. Let me go to you first, Joey. Do you think that this is the way to go now? We have them warnings like they have on cigarette packets. Yeah, I think anything that encourages people not to eat the bodies of slaughtered animals is a good thing as an animal rights activist, of course. But you mentioned meat in dairy is the biggest cause of greenhouse gas emissions and ocean dead zones and water use land use, even local meat in dairy. I mean, terrible for the environment, but, and you did mention like, did you mention pandemic risk as well, like antibiotic resistance in factory farms for pigs and chickens? I mean, this could be... Yeah, BSE was all to do with mass production, yeah. Yeah, yeah, like just warning people about that I think it's a good idea, but I don't think actually the suggestion to put labels go far enough. I think we should put images of these poor animals either living in squalor like the vast majority of them do in the UK or graphic images of the so-called happy local free range animals being decapitated. I mean, that would be true transparency unlike the humane propaganda that the labels on meat and dairy have these days in the UK. It's all like, you know, they take advantage of people's compassion and people think something nice happens to animals in the UK. I mean, they probably wouldn't put that kind of labeling on products because it'd be too brutal and horrifying to show with children in a supermarket, but that should tell you everything we need to know about what we're doing to animals. Label it with proper photos. Scary photos, William. I think the problem with labeling is it really oversimplifies the issues. I completely respect people if they decide for one reason or other that they don't want to eat meat, but there are faults on both sides. There are environmental impacts on both sides. I mean, there's an environmental impact if you leave the house, if you switch on the TV, if you use your telephone. There are environmental impacts from, you know, processed fake vegan foods, mayonnaise, cheeses, Schwarmakababs, and all these terrible things that are probably gonna be great. We'll look back in 50 years' time and see that the over-processing of food, whether it's vegan or otherwise, is one of the great causes of cancer. It's gonna be one of the great scandals of the late 20th and early 21st centuries, I reckon. And it's rather like, you know, putting calorie control, that's wretched policy the government implemented a few months ago in restaurants that basically creates food phobias. It's very bad for, I think, health, mental health because it's sort of, you know, I think politicizing some of your everyday decisions when you're going into a supermarket is not helpful because it sort of, you know, creates factions within food. Well, what we want to do is try and encourage people to have a holistic open mind to be educated to learn as you are, the guest says, totally how animals are reared, slaughtered, and so on. And if you're not comfortable with it, you make that decision. But simple labels that oversimplify the very complex global food system, you know, the way that animals, people are treated to transportation. I just don't think it's helpful. What I would like to see is- Joey, what the hell, Joey, come back on some of that, Joey. I think that the science is very clear when it comes to climate change and to pandemic risk and to heart disease and cancer, especially processed meat and colorectal cancer. I mean, that's simple, simple things. It's not over complicated at all. I mean, we're not talking about the environmental impact of stepping on an ant as you go walk to the bus stop. We're talking about something that could be the end of us all. And I didn't hear you answer the moral issue of decapitating local animals and putting down the labels. I mean, that would definitely deter people from doing this because most people have a kind heart and they don't actually want to decapitate animals. But what happens? Let me just finish this point for one second. Just one, it's be one sentence. Like, they put RSPCA assured free range grass fed happy humane labelling on it, which tricks people and manipulates people. So why are they allowed to do that but not the opposite? So you're saying where animals are decapitated, we should see what a picture of their body without the head. Yeah, well, why not? Well, I mean, they put that these animals are humanely raised free range are allowed to manipulate people. But as an investigator, we see horrible things on farms. For a restaurant to do that, to have a menu with that sort of thing on an inside page. Well, yeah, maybe we should have a picture of the 3D printer that produced your fake vegan cheese. I mean, great. And what's what's ethical with you with that? I don't I don't have a what's ethical about eating fake food. I think it's a terrible. Well, it's not an ethical issue. But it hasn't killed anything, William. That's the thing. Well, I don't mind about that. OK, I'm relaxed about it. I look at the sheep that graze gently opposite me where I'm where I am now. And I'm quite relaxed in the fact that that animal is slaughtered, turned into meat. The animal is not relaxed, are they? They're decapitated. I enjoy the flesh. Joey has been very honest about it. He's been honest, he's honest. He wouldn't want to be in the slaughterhouse, though. Jeremy, neither would you. You know, neither of you would be relaxed about having your head cut off and we do it for a sandwich or a lamb chop. It's so unjustifiable and people don't even know because they're so ignorant to what's going on in the food system by design because they put these these labels that trick people. No, I completely agree. I think there's huge amounts of ignorance. I totally agree that people need to understand that animals are bred for slaughter for the for the nutritional and pleasure. Pleasure is also key because I, you know, I enjoy and I don't want to have a huge argument about vegan vegetarianism. I've been here before. Too late. And it's dangerous. We know I am relaxed about and I enjoy eating the flesh of animals. I like the taste of flesh and fat. Yeah, but the taste doesn't justify the decapitation, does it? Do you think, one second, do you think taste justifies one of them? This is what, let me let me just finish this point. This is one of the biggest moral emergencies of our time. If we care about ethics and morals and suffering, the most suffering, the most killing, the most brutality happens in the meat, dairy and egg industries by far. And anyone who tried to deny that is just denying reality at this point. We've got a gas chamber footage of pigs screaming for their lives. We've got free range eggs, footage of hens dying on their faces in farms. And we've got, this is a huge moral issue. And you're going to say, well, it tastes good. William, last one to you. Because I'm relaxed because I'm educated. I would urge everyone to understand how animals are bred and slaughtered. If you're uncomfortable with it, I completely respect that. I am comfortable with it, but we need to have education. If labelling helps that on all sides, then vegan food... But not photos, William. I mean... Do we have, if you'd like, I mean, you obviously, you can walk into an abattoir and walk out on the other side and have a sausage roll. I'm not like that. I don't... Is it acceptable to say, you know, you and one can enjoy eating meat and be completely ignorant? Jeremy, we don't know your position. You don't like slaughtering or harming animals, but you don't want to see it. And that's the same with most of the public. I would rather people weren't ignorant, because actually, my knowledge of knowing farmers and producers who care about their food, the more you know about it and also the understanding of that slaughter, the transportation, the better the animal, the better death it's had. And I know you other guys will not agree. Actually, that produces a more enjoyable and more appreciative experience of eating. Thank you very much, William Sitwell, food writer, restaurant critic for the Telegraph and judge on TV's MasterChef and Joey Carpstrong, animal rights activist. No worries, mate. Thanks, bye-bye. Thank you very much, bye-bye. They cut me off at the end, yeah. Yeah, no, no, I think he was very calm. He stayed calm, but he was just like, I'm comfortable with it. I'm just totally comfortable with it. And it's like, dude, like you wouldn't be comfortable if you, like... Honestly, he said that he was... He recommends people become aware of what happens to animals in the food system. But if he is aware, so he's basically saying I'm aware and I'm comfortable with it. So if you are aware, like, to the degree that I am, and you're comfortable with that, then I'm gonna say that you are a horrible, cold-hearted, callous person. Because in order to be comfortable with something so atrocious, you have to have either, you're completely detached, cold-heart, or I think you'd have to be a little bit of a sociopath, psychopath, and some serious mental disorder to see what animals actually go through and say that you're totally comfortable with that. And to be honest, I don't give a s*** if someone is or isn't comfortable about it. Whether you are comfortable, uncomfortable, it's not even about us. It's about the animals who are uncomfortable with having their head cut off of their shoulders. You don't look at human rights issues and go, well, you know, I'm kind of comfortable with kids being abused. I'm kind of comfortable with this horrible atrocity. And we don't care about your comfort level about it. We care about the victim and how the victim feels. I'm sick of approaching this from, do you care about this issue? Does this make you feel bad? Oh, it makes Jeremy feel bad. It makes him, he's comfortable with it. I'm uncomfortable with it. What about the victim? Obviously, chickens don't want to die on factory farm floors and pigs don't want to be gasped to death. So shouldn't we be looking at it from their perspective? But again, it's all about, it's all about the labelling and the climate and you know, it's a culture war and it's nothing, no one ever looks at it from the animal's perspective. And that's why they're always left off the table when true moral issues are discussed. And that's why I try to bring it back to the moral issue about, let's show the, let's say labelling. I mean, obviously people don't want to see what happens to animals when they're picking up the meat. Honestly, I think that would be a very good deterrent. But further than that, I just honestly think that we shouldn't legally be able to do this to animals and they should have rights protecting them. And that would save this whole labelling deterrent thing. We shouldn't even have a choice to be able to do this to animals. It's so horrible.