 It's been a long, long day, I got a lot to say. It feels like I'm carrying a two-ton weight, I go see a friend. Hello, I'm Monsignor Patrick Winslow. And I am Father Matthew Cout. And we are speaking from the Rooftop. A podcast brought to you by 10 Books, in which we invite you to join our conversation out here in the open air. Where we look out upon the world around us from the rooftop of the church and share with you what we see. Well, hello. Greetings, how are you? I'm doing well, how about you? Fantastic, fantastic. We're just coming to the end of the semester and so things are finally sliding down. And as per usual, I feel like I'm face-planning across the finish line. You know, over the years you run into these liturgical purists who refuse to celebrate anything named Christmas during Advent. And I have a theory. I have a theory that in the western context, that truly a lot of the Christmas lights and trees and wreaths are really Advent. Because they are how we prepare for Christmas. But the culture doesn't use different terms. They don't make a distinction between Advent and Christmas, right? They know that Christmas Day has yet to come. And then this is how we prepare for. So hearing the Christmas music, seeing the Christmas lights, to me is not all, it is not a violation of the spirit of Advent. I see it as part and parcel in the American context. This is our cultural language of Advent. And then you put the baby in the creche at Easter. Your thoughts? I would agree with you. And I think that you beginning of Christmas music in October is a sound practice. It's incarnational. It's the incarnation is part of everything. I think Dickon said, right, from Scrooge, we are one of those ghosts of Christmas past or present that we celebrate his birth 365 days a year. The question becomes then, I suppose, if that's what we do during Advent now, what do we do during Christmas? Good questions. So since Christmas is upon us, hard to know if this is going to hit, this publication is going to hit right before or right after Christmas. I don't know. Right before. But either way, Christmas is upon us. So I would say first, as a practical matter, I always give advice, as I mentioned before, I think I mentioned at time, Easter time, that when you're getting together with family and friends that you haven't gotten together with throughout the year, avoid controversy. So that means to say, it is not the right time and place to get into a contentious battle regarding religion or a contentious battle regarding politics. A contentious battle, recalling how somebody owes you money. You just got to let it go. You say that because you owe me money. You can bring it up before or after Christmas. Well, why? Why ruin Christmas Day? I mean, I understand. I can hear nearsayers already. I can practically hear them now. Well, why wouldn't you talk? Of course you should talk about a religion. It's just not the time for it to go south. You don't want people storming out of your house because they are in error on something or maybe you're in error on something and they're right. But either way, this is not the moment. For example, don't we all feel like there's something wrong when the Eastern and the Latin Catholics get into priests. Eastern and Latin Catholic priests get into fistfights on the eve of the nativity in Bethlehem over some silly rule of one thing or another. It's almost a ritual over there. But everyone kind of looks at it and says, you know what, really, of all the days, could you just not be contentious for one day? Now, I'm not trying to sacrifice true religion. I'm not trying to sacrifice doctrine. I'm not trying to sacrifice opportunities for evangelization and things of that nature. But don't let it get contentious. Please write to the Diocese of Charlotte. Karen Bishop-Cugus. But seriously, I mean, honestly, I mean, I remember reading the means to be humble by Mother Teresa, she spoke to her community. You know, and one of her points was, it was about arguments. It was given in arguments at some point, given. Meaning, I don't think she means endorse error or, you know, embrace a lie. But she means just at some point, don't go south with it. Yield and turn the channel. Move on. It's just not worth a blood sport. It's just, it's always the case that we, almost always the case that when we get into a conversation, that we're not attempting to see something with someone else and having them help us see something. As we try to do in these little cloutiers. It's almost like a sport sometimes. You're trying to win and spike the ball. And we get into their camp and what win can I get? And then you go tell your friends, you should have heard what I said. Yeah, yeah. And I stormed out of the house or, you know, they went away. I told him, yeah. See, that's perfect for the colorect. It is. Well, colorects love it. That must be like a, yeah. But I've, the older I am, the less I am interested in it to be honest with you. I just, I'm not that interested in it. Mainly because I don't see any fruit that comes from it. I've got 30 years of no fruit coming from kind of those kinds of conversations. And a lot of people come back and remind you, you are such a jerk. Exactly. Yeah. And you got to deal with it. It's like, I'll be aftermath. You might feel justified that you won something, but. You feel noble. Yeah. It's true. So, and so beyond the preparatory familial friendship events that we have, what would be your recommendation relative to, because people typically, as with anything, when you are looking forward to something and that something comes. So much of it is dependent upon the kind of expectations you placed on it. Yeah. As a matter of fact, I ran across something very interesting the other day that I had, I did not know. That sounded pretty haughty, didn't it? I actually ran across something that I did not know. I'm used to that with you actually. That didn't sound haughty. That just sounded like you. I'm learning something every day. That's all right. This was really interesting to me. It was a description of the etymology of hope. It was a Germanic word, and it has the same root as the word hop. It's like an Easter Bunny, or is it? Well, yeah. So, or like in the little grain. In Greek and Latin, of course, it has to, it refers to the particular goddesses, elpus and spes that give you gifts, but they're not always something you're looking forward to. And so the Greeks ended up with this eiu elpus, the good gift that might actually come, that becomes this thing about hope, because your expectation is something's coming to you, but we're not sure what's actually coming. So in the old days, we had this at Christmas because you didn't know what you were getting. And so you might get a lump of coal, quote, unquote, or you might get something that you actually wanted. Now I don't think any kid gets coal, right, because they would probably call up trial protective services. Well, that's right, exactly. That being said, it could be one or the other. And my mother actually did give me coal once on the, prior to Christmas. Did you deserve it? Well, it was interesting. We had in our stockings, you know, sometimes, you know, we check your stocking, because you know, there might be like a little, a pre-gift. A pre-gift. Yeah. And so my sister got a bunch of candy or something, and I went to mine and I got a lump of coal. It just happened to look like a charcoal briquette. And it said in there, stop trying to act like an adult and leave your mother alone in the kitchen. Santa. Ah, interesting. I know you could explain the coal. So, but that, at least it had embedded into it a sort of merit. Right. Now it's an expectation. But the reason I bring that up about hope that I find fascinating is that it's like that sort of excitement. So when you see, for example, an animal, if you think, you're going to take the animal, the animal thinks that you're taking them for a walk. They see their leash or you have some mannerism, right? They start jumping up and hopping. That jumping is a manifestation that there's a good coming to you. And we all have that with Christmas. We get excited again. Right. We get excited about the thought that good things are going to come to us in this season. And because sometimes we're not expecting the right good things or expect them in a particular way, post-partum Christmas syndrome can set in. As a priest early on, I remember getting flurries of phone calls from people that needed to talk after Christmas. And I started to piece it together. It's like, whoa. First, people getting together that they normally don't get together with. Lots of history, some charged personas. And then you had the expectations. And you're hitting on that ladder part, the expectation. This is a big issue for couples getting married. And this is one of the councils I give them. And really my final session and talking with them when I do marriage preparation is I explain, look, you've done all your preparations now. And so when the time comes, whether it's Thursday or Friday, presuming the wedding's on Saturday, you need to let go. And you also need to let go of your expectations of other people's behavior because you can't control them. And in your mind, you've tried to put together an event that you want to go a certain way, but you are not actually directing the characters on that stage. You can't. So you will almost always be disappointed about what actually happens because in your mind, nobody is going to play the role that you want them to play, but you've worked so hard to create a moment where they're supposed to fulfill the script that you have in your mind. Then they're never going to. They never have in the past. Why would they do it in this day? In fact, they might see it as an opportunity. Look, this circumstance has served up an opportunity for me to be just more of myself, not less, or certainly not scripted. So you've got to let go of it and just enjoy the moment and laugh. That's a good way to put it. As people come to your home for Christmas, you hand out the scripts. Exactly. And they're not reading their lines. That's right. Nope. You've got to let them read themselves. The set isn't right. Well, here's a good way. Maybe we can put it into the minds of the faithful about a paradigm for them to walk into Christmas with. Can you imagine if the script was laid out in a certain way at the first Christmas? I'm sure things did not work out exactly according to this plan. Exactly. Having to go to Bethlehem. I mean, have you ever been to the Holy Land? It's not a small journey on foot. It's a reasonable journey in a car, not on foot. And yet, because it wasn't part of the plan, it began... If your eyes are open, you begin to see. At some point, Joseph and our Lady must have said, ah, he has to be born in Bethlehem. This makes sense. Right. Right. And the excitement, the genuine hopping or the movement up to realize that God is doing something here, that what seems like a ridiculous secular injunction and command to register, now I see why all of that providence, or even just the fact that everyone's so familiar with the beautiful crash scenes that we create in the stable. Imagine if that hadn't happened. Imagine all that sort of romance of the Savior not being welcomed into a particular hostel or hotel. The scene would look a little bit different in a hotel. And yet, that ability that St. Joseph had to not sort of become encumbered by his own expectations. But the correcting of that expectation, or the realigning of it when you're met in Bethlehem, of not having a place for your wife who's in labor. Yeah. And instead of bringing his hands, he comes up with something. You surrender. Yeah. You surrender and you come up with something and you adapt. You adapt. And in many ways, that, as you are rightly pointing out, is more the spirit of Christmas than giving when everyone they're scripted and they behave thusly. How do I take care of the Christ, John? Yeah. Yeah. And how do I respond to divine providence in these circumstances and be malleable to divine providence and to take it with a sense of joy and surrender? You know, I think that in a nutshell, we're telling people if they haven't already celebrated Christmas, or even if they're in the wake of it, that we're telling them to really, you can work for a moment of having family and friends to celebrate this amazing feast of the incarnation of God. But you also, especially in the spirit of the Nativity in Christmas, have to be malleable about what actually will unfold. Because, first of all, that is really a true experience of Bethlehem. But second of all, is a practical matter. No one's going to show up and say, give me my script, I'm going to play it perfectly. It's not going to happen. And in some sense, it's the opposite. Because we got used to having expectations of receiving certain things as kids, we still have them as adults. Right. And we're sort of expecting to receive the Hallmark Christmas. Right. Or the Currier in Ives. That's my father. But you know the great thing about my father, regardless of what actually happens in front of him, in his mind, it's a Hallmark Christmas. I love it. It's a delusion. He wears the sweaters. It's a delusion, yeah. Like one time we had Thanksgiving, and the turkey was bad. I mean, it was bad. It wasn't like poorly done. It was sour. It was bad meat. So clearly something happened. We later found out that something happened at the Sam's Club where these things had defrosted when they shouldn't have. And we were not the only ones. But it looked amazing. But it didn't taste proper. It was not. He was going to believe that it was. Oh, denial. Denial. I mean, it took, I think it was post Thanksgiving. But nobody was eating it. And he was willing to smother it with anything to make it work. But yeah, we had to let reality burst through the Hallmark Thanksgiving. But no. So he's got wonderful Hollywood eyes where he can just produce something through his vision in spite of what's in front of him. That works. Hey, if you're delusional like my father and you can put on those happy glasses, you go right ahead. But in reality, most of us are actually kind of seeing things as they are. And you have to you have to roll with it. Yeah. And you got to flip the paradigm, right? I mean, if when you were a child and you had the expectation of receiving, you really do have to flip the paradigm and say, I am interested in offering. I really want to create. You know, I talk a lot about creating worlds for people. Right. Which doesn't mean giving them a script. It means giving them a setting in which they can thrive and live and flourish. And ideally the one that brings out the best helps them deal with the worst. So having an expectation of creating something beautiful for the baby Jesus, but then the people that are in your life, it sounds sort of trite, but it's not. It's a great thing. You know, that's one of those sayings in the scriptures where it says it is better for him to give than to receive. And what's interesting about that phrase, it's not in the Gospels. It's quoted from the lips of our Lord, but you don't find it in the Gospels, which tells you how many sayings were out there that didn't find their way into the actual Gospels. But it's just true. It's true. And so if there's any small piece of advice, it's like have the posture of St. Joseph in that sense, looking to serve the child. Because I was thinking to myself, too, imagine if you've been waiting to see this child for a long time and you have even an inkling of what is actually going on as Joseph and our Lady would have had more than an inkling about what's the reality here. Finally, the child comes itself in a miraculous way. And then just as you have a moment to adore, you know, a bunch of shepherds show up. So imagine someone comes to your door at Christmas time that you did not invite. That's right. Exactly. I mean, and many people say, you know, how do they say, keep the reason for the season? Sure, sure. Those little expressions. You know, they're reminding us of obviously the reason for the feast. But oftentimes, the circumstances that were dedicating our efforts or whether it's giving a gift or whether it's preparing the food or creating the atmosphere in the setting and doing all these things. We are very focused on those in particular. We can lose sight, you know, as we say, lose the forest for the trees. We're caught into the trees. We can't see the whole big picture. But one of the ways in which we can bring that bigger picture into the weeds of things is when we encounter these frictions. Yes. And say, now I can give, right? Now, instead of being disappointed and tearful and wounded, now I can give because you're going to find plenty of opportunities in the frictions of those circumstances to take that reason for the season, to take the real meaning and apply it. And then you're truly manifesting the gift of the nativity interpersonally and in the context of your family and your friends. Yeah. And then you do receive. And you do receive. It is truly the spirit of Christmas. It truly... And one of the things I've learned over years with respect to the whole expectation game is no gift changes anyone's life. That's right. You know, we all want to give that gift that it's just got to alter everything. You know, and it's going to be a game changer. I'd like you to try, though. You know, you have, you know... But I've realized the only gift that really changes your life... Don't say your presence. ...is me. Here we go. And it's been consistent. Oh, it changes my life considerably. That's for sure. Oh, speaking of which, you know, I was thinking in terms of expectations, you know, and so on, some of the conversations I've had with people, you know, they... I think they're still a little confused on what the nature of the podcast is here. Because oftentimes, you know, people might make a comment. The assumption is that we're trying to be expressly catechetical or, you know, expressly theological. Or philosophical. Or philosophical. We got plenty of talks out there. Well, that's it. We do this all the time. You know, we're invited to give a talk here. We do catechetical work. We do scripture study work. We obviously are involved. But the thing that we're doing here that's different is we're really sharing our friendship with other people to be a part of it. And what I like to think, you know, is kind of our brand, if you will, what we're doing is I would hope that we're minimal, minimally modeling a substantive friendship such that people could see the types of things that we actually do talk about. Because quite honestly, we're different than when we first met, and hopefully in the better ways, except for our bodies. But apart from those. It's tough being 25. It is tough. I mean, when we met when we were 18, now we're 25. But you know, but the truth is the substance and the real matter of it all, the heart of the matter, just grows. And it's built on things that are truly substantial, built on things that are eternal. And yeah, we're here, right? You know, we live in this world in tents, so to speak. We're strangers and so-and-ers, and we're making our way. But the relationships, even as we recall in feudal rites, they don't unravel with death. That's right. And so what we're doing with our friendship, and hopefully with our other friendships, and with our family members, and so on, is we're investing in something that's eternal. And we're actually, I think, hopefully, modeling for people, not in a contrived way, but just, I guess, in a bit of a sort of opening the doors kind of way for the people in, or turning on the microphone, so to speak. That this is what friends talk about. This is true stuff. It's a blend of real life. It's a blend of personality. It's a blend of religion. It's a blend of philosophy. And these, this stuff is, this is the stuff of life. You know, we don't just do catechetics and say, I know this and I can pass the exam. Or I can do scripture study and I can pass that interpretation. Or it's not that. If this stuff doesn't hit the road in the fibers of who you are, then what is the point of it? Right, right. No, absolutely. I think that what always fascinates me about these conversations, maybe fascinates too big of a word, but what I sort of grin about is that at some point we just hit record. We were talking for half hour before we hit record. Right, exactly. Because it's not going to change. We're just going to speak about these things, but it's not from no particular position. It's from that position of the rooftop, where you're actually trying to get above the cotidianum, the humdrum of the day. But you take those things up top and you look at them through the eyes of faith and what people are going through, what we're going through, et cetera. I heard something really beautifully their day relative to that. And this is about, I mean, for St. Thomas, all love is a kind of friendship. And so some of those kinds of friendship have to do with the propagation, education of children we call marriage. There's a different kind of friendship and different kind of love. But this was a really beautiful statement that talks about when friends get old and when they've got in their past all sorts of history and commonalities, experiences, and even wounds. And the line was this. This elderly gentleman said that when my wife's leg brushes up against my leg, it no longer makes me emotionally excited. It doesn't thrill me. It doesn't fill me with the kind of, I can't believe she's near me. He said, but when her leg hurts, so does mine. And I thought that was really brilliant. That you do lose some of that, what couples experience is they lose that sort of effervescence of a newly found love. But in any friendship, this happens too. It becomes a place in which you live. It's kind of your home. You go beyond the novelty in the first layer. So what's I'm going to offer you in terms of an exciting. The kickbacks. Yeah, the kickbacks. And yet there's such a, and this kind of gets more to an era still in understanding a friendship there, that someone else is sort of part of my own soul. Almost like you're one person. And all of our deep friendships have that sense about them. And yet, because we're such distinct minds, what's been helpful for us over the years and for other friends as well that we have is to be able to try to stop and put those minds together and say, okay, what do you see? Because what I see helps what you see. What you see helps what I see to come to a genuine concord of the thing we're gazing at. So in a nutshell, you talk a good game, but when my leg hurts, you laugh. That's true. You have a lot of work to do. I said, that's for married couples. Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Nope, nope, nope, nope. Nope. That's not what good friends do. You know, you have so many ailments that I either have to laugh or cry all the time. Well, I generally cry. Well, good. All right, well, let's see. Before we go, I know. Before we go. Before we go. I have to say that living in North Carolina, it's not cold enough to have a fire every single day, especially when around Christmas. Night times are not bad. Especially on Christmas time. Sure. However, this year. You do the TV one, the TV fire? No, the TV fire. The YouTube loop? You should probably know this. So we just had a Christmas party at the seminary. And it's the great event of the year. And so many people come. It's incredible. All of our faculty and our formators. It's really old world style. It is. And it's gorgeous. Everything's laid out and decked out so beautifully. And we put on a big meal and song vespers and sing a lot. And both in terms of song songs, but also fun songs. We have a Christmas play in Latin. It's just great. So I walk, I'm cooking all the food. And we've got 70s people there. And I walk out of the kitchen when a couple of the priests and the sisters and other people helping me with the preparations. And I walk into the great room and it's a perfect scene. Fireplace there, roaring. Because now it's cold this year. Music, roaring fire. And music is going. There's a piano. There's a Christmas tree. There's garlands. And people are having a cocktail or something or a glass of wine. And just happy. And I'm thinking, huh, there's not as many people as I thought there were. So I go to the next room, which is what we call the man cave. And in there. It's for the seminarians. It's their hangout. In there, there's another fireplace going on the T.D. As if that's the real thing. And who is sitting there holding court with about a dozen seminarians? But dear Father Winslow, choosing the artificial over the real. No, those boys were real. It was great. We were in the warmth of the fire. Just not the fire. I had to step away from them. I mean, I'm so psychosomatic. I had to step away from the TV. I was burning up. Now, you know what? It's really nice about those guys. It's truly a joy is that in our worlds, oftentimes, people have either things they want to tell us or they want to get an opinion or a thought or oftentimes permissions about X, Y, or Z. With these guys, they're just relaxed. And there's nothing. There's no agenda. No. And it's really delightful. This would have laughed, really. They would have laughed. Yeah, it's, you know, it's like one of those scenes out of a movie where you see all these people socialize or whatever. There's lots of agendas and subterfuge going on in these parties. And then someone steps out and starts talking to the wait staff. Because it's like, it's a natural conversation without any agenda. And it's like, oh, this is refreshing. That's true. Well, that's like it wasn't with those guys, you know. Oh, it is. Just step away and just have a... And you're a step removed from their life, at least as the Vicar General. And so they don't need you to be their authority because they have one above them. So we talk about silly things. But they want you to be their silly person that comes in and makes them laugh. It works. It totally works. All right. That's great. So, all right, my... So real fireplaces, not electric. Oh, that's right. And get rid of the gas for having six people walks in there. What about trees? We've already talked about that. That's an absolute... That's true. That's true. Okay. So on my end, I would say, with respect to giving gifts, whether it's too late or not, go for my advice is go for something that's thoughtful. I found that thoughtful gifts are more meaningful and have a greater impact. You know, when you think about a person, not just like what do they need, right? Because then the gift giving comes a chore. I've got to find out what they need and everyone's searching for what they need. Hardly any of us need anything. Oh, that's true. Or what they want. But think about the person. And then think about the person. And if you're going to give them a gift, think about what matches that person. Like one year, for example, my brother-in-law, Tofer, and my sister, Deborah. Oh, wait. Or maybe it was Mary and her husband, Mark. I can't remember which one did it. But maybe it was my sister Mary. They found a place to make my father a lord of Scotland because they give you the rights to like a square inch of like a square inch or a square foot of property into this estate where the title Lord is applied to you. So they give you this. So it was perfectly ridiculous. But it was perfect for him. And that perfect for him because we found out that year that his bloodline tracks into the royal family of England to the Plantagenes. Oh, here we go. So he was hammered up all the time how he was royalty. So it was just like a perfect, thoughtful, fun, novel kind of thing. No, that's good advice. But it was just thoughtful. Like it was tailored. And that sort of stuff goes a long way and it doesn't have to be expensive. It's just tailored. I like them to be both for me, please. So could you please, if we're anticipating, I probably won't see you at Christmas, Father. So you can go ahead and give me your thoughtful gift today. Oh, I just did. I gave you all my thoughts. Merry Christmas, everyone. Merry Christmas. God bless you. Bye now. Thanks for listening to this episode of From the Rooftop. For updates about new episodes, special guests, and exclusive deals for From the Rooftop listeners, sign up at rooftoppodcast.com. And remember, for more great ways to deepen your faith, check out all the spiritual resources available at 10books.com. And we'll see you again next time. From the Rooftop.