 Welcome to another show of Celebrate Life. My name is Gary D. Carlos and I'll be your host. The goal for this series is to show the amazing lives that people live, both here in Vermont and in some cases outside of Vermont. Over the years, I've read too many obituaries and come away feeling, gosh, I wish I had a chance to get to know that person. And so for this show, we're gonna actually bring you into the lives of some very special people around Vermont and actually around the country at times to celebrate their lives. One thing I've learned is that everybody has fascinating lives to tell and share and everyone has a story to tell. So I encourage you to relax, sit down, enjoy the show and if for chance you have any interest in being interviewed on this show, please be in touch with me at celebratelife0747 at gmail.com or if you have a question for our guest today. Again, email me at celebratelife0747 at gmail.com and I'll be glad to get it over to the guest and have them respond and like kind. Well, today I'm honored to have as our guest, Michael Kutcher. Michael, today we're gonna celebrate your life and you've had in many ways in my eye, a storied life in the artistic realm, a photographer, videographer, records producer, singer and a recovery coach extraordinaire. So I'd like to, if you wouldn't mind, take us back to where it all started. I know you're a Vermonter and what was your early life like and how did it lead to the person you are today? Hi, Gary, thanks for having me. This is a pleasure. Yeah, I grew up in Morrisville, Vermont, a small town, just right outside, right next to Stout and without a lot of perspective, I think my life was pretty normal, at least normal up until my teens and then things started changing. But, you know, small town, very tight. We had, I give my siblings, I have a brother and a sister, half brother and a sister and they were both born in New York. So I give them, they don't get the native Vermonter. Label. Label, right. But, you know, I grew up just outside of town and had a really kind of storied earlier childhood. I had really good friends and I grew up right near a mill pond and we just had so much fun on that. We ran logs, we fished, we, you know, had bonfires at night. We hunted, we built cabins, we built rafts and just had so much fun out there. And it was pretty good, wholesome, you know, growing on the pond. And we also, my sister and I had horses as we were growing up in the youth. I think in hindsight, they were more, I think my mother liked them more than we did. She grew up with horses and loved them. And we learned how to ride. We learned in English, did three-day eventing, stadium jumping, cross country and dressage. Wow. And learned how to do that and did that for years. Up until I was about 16 or 17. And when I was about 13, I went to Boston for a couple of weeks and learned how to play polo. Wow. Which was, you know, not something that very many people in Morrisville have the opportunity to do. Right. And in fact, I was sort of embarrassed about it because, you know, the strata of people. Right, right, right. But the game was fantastic. It was a really incredible, athletic, you know, dangerous game. Yes, yes. I think went off the rails a little bit in 10 years because normal teen stuff. But, you know, small town, if you weren't on a athletic team, you know, driving the back roads, drinking beer, you know, that kind of stuff. Which, you know, I never gotten into very much trouble at all. But, you know, that's back in, you know, senior, junior year where we would have huge parties in wood. And, you know, mainly they were just kind of cookouts and with my friends, you know, and hindsight, it didn't look so bad. I did a lot of skiing growing up, growing next to Stowe. I was instinctual on skis from the time of, you know, three and a half or four on. Dad had been not only on the ski patrol, but he was an instructor in at Stowe. And that's how he met my mother. Okay. The reason I have a half brother is because my mom was married and her first husband was killed in World War II. And she ended up coming from Connecticut up here to go skiing and met the instructor. And that's the end of that story. Isn't that something? Yeah. So it was your father, was that ski instruction, was that his career or was that something he did part-time? No, that was sort of on the weekends and other times. Well, he was the manager of Union Carbide, which was the record center for the whole company, the international company. Nobody even knows what Union Carbide is anymore, but it was a very large multinational company. And if you remember, the downfall of the company was when there was a chemical spill in India, in Bhopal, India, that killed a lot of people. And it was the Union Carbide company, and that bit him in. But my father had passed away long before that. So he had a really, he was lucky, Morrisville or Phoenix, Arizona, I think were the two places that they had chosen as the safest places in the country during the Cold War. Amazing. Yeah, so that's where all the records were there. All the records of Union Carbide were in Morrisville, Vermont. Exactly. That's amazing. Yeah. So he did that and he skied and he was also a pilot. Back when he was 18 and went into the Army Air Corps, he had more flying hours than the instructors did. All right. And he wanted to fly fighters, but they wouldn't let him because he had too much time. So they put him on transports and really annoyed the hell out of him. Wow. Wow. Where do you get that creative part of you? That's quite interesting. I think if there's a genetic part to it, I would have gotten it through my mother was artistic, but her father who I never knew was an architect in Manhattan and Connecticut and pretty well known. And he was an artist as well. And I still have, I don't know, 80, 85 paintings of his that are really amazing. Wow. And, you know, I always had some sort of a creative itch. Yeah. And it took me a long time to figure out how to scratch it. Yep. Yep. But it started out with me in high school, a bunch of my friends and I started a band. We always had a very active music presence in our schools. A gentleman named Bob Yanni got everybody involved with music and we all continued with that. And I think everybody in the band ended up doing music either in a band or teaching. Wow. Interesting. Yeah. And so while I was in high school, we were in the band and I also was on ski patrol at Stoke. And, you know, we did a lot of playing around the high schools and also at fraternities at UMM. Okay. And had a good time. That's pretty much how I paid through college for college. What was the name of the band? Couple of names. The end, the final end was public and formal gathering, which was pig, of course. Okay. You know, it's kind of, you know, we thought it was kind of cool then and now looking back, it's like, I don't know. Not quite the same resonance as Beatles. Not quite. Yeah. Yeah. Although the musicianship was pretty darn good and we did a bunch of original stuff. Wow. No kidding. And that sort of led me into, let me back up just a minute. Yeah. When I was a, I wanted to go to med school. And when I went into UVM, that's what I was looking to do. And my freshman year, second semester, my mom died of a pulmonary embolism. And that took the wind out of my sails. And that's when I started a unhealthy relationship with alcohol. Okay, yep. You know, it was really difficult for me and I didn't really realize how difficult it was because, you know, growing up a guy, a French Canadian background in Vermont, Catholic upbringing, every message I got from everybody was suck it up, move on, don't grieve. Right, right. And that's where my relationship with alcohol came. And it became my go-to practice for when everything got, anything got stressful or hard or difficult. And that continued for many, many years. Even though I was always productive, I never missed work and I never was arrested or any of that stuff. It was an internal head problem that I knew, you know, self-medication, basically. Right, you were depressed, you lost your mom and alcohol was a friend that could take you away from that. Yeah, and so I was at UVM and, you know, partying was not a problem to find that you know. And I, you know, I had to stay in school because I really didn't want to go to Vietnam. That was the big Vietnam era. And, you know, 1969, 70. And I would have gone, but I was lucky enough to get a high lottery pick number, although they got very close to it, uncomfortably close to it because my grades were not good enough to, you know, keep me there. Okay. And I just had friends, not a high school who went and didn't come back or came back different. And, you know, same with college, you know, early college, guys would head off and, you know, slap them on the back and they would come back totally different person. So, yeah, go ahead. I'm sorry, I keep... I know, I was gonna, you know, so it sounded like, although you at some point understood the gravity of what alcohol was doing to your life, you were able to function through using that. What changed for you to say, okay, I just can't go on like this? What's the... Well, that happened many years, decades later. I mean, I used alcohol for many, many years. And when I was 58, I looked at myself and said, I can't do this treadmill anymore because I was waking up in the morning feeling lousy, promising I wouldn't do it again, going to work, working hard all day, promising I'm not gonna do this again. Five o'clock rolls around and the pressure of my business at that point, we had 350 employees and the pressure of that many families relying on my brother and I and partners was heavy and I just had to kind of anesthetize myself. And I got to the realization that I didn't wanna do that anymore, that I was postponing my life. Really, I was kind of on hold every day and feeling like not living my life. And I just didn't wanna do that anymore. And on the 12 step program and that has been my saving grace since then. Wow. So, okay. So you were that treadmill, that visual image of a treadmill seems very appropriate, going nowhere but moving constantly. Yeah, I mean, I thought feeling bad in the morning was how grownups felt. Right. Until I stopped in that as well. Wow. Yeah. You can actually feel good. Yeah. So, backing up to college, my dad died six years later when I was 25. And that's about the time, before that, when I was a sophomore at UVM, my brother and I decided that we would start a recording studio. And he had owned a barn down in North Ferrisburg which he had fixed for his family. And we started recording there. And built it up pretty well. Had the first 16 track recording studio in the state. And that was recorded back on two inch tape. Wow. And did that for a couple of years. And then we decided that we were getting to know and knowing about a lot of really amazing musicians, both here in this country, in Canada and in the British Isles. And so we started Filo Records. Which some people know, some people don't know, but we ended up starting a record company. What the hell do we know? We'll just start a record company. Wow. And Filo Records has a huge reputation. I mean, even to today, people know that label. Yeah. A lot of the musicians with us have passed, which is unfortunate, but people like David Van Rock and Rosalie Sorrells and Utah Phillips. I know most people don't even know those people anymore. David Van Rock was a pretty well-known American artist. And we were pretty well-known in Canada. We were actually considered a major record company in Canada because we had a lot of French Canadian fiddlers and really well-known people in Canada. And the British Isles. We had the Boys of the Lock and Gene Redpath and they would all come over and record their albums at our place. Or in some cases, like the Boys of the Lock, I would fill my car up and go to Harvard and record them at the coffee house there live. Wow. So we had a lot of people. We had about 200 artists with multiple records. Wow. That's amazing. Yeah. Where did you develop the business acumen to do that? Well, I sort of veered toward the technology and the recording part. And my brother Bill was running the business basically. Okay. Gotcha. But neither of us started the business acumen. We just, you know. That's amazing. You can make all the mistakes in the world but only make them once. Right. But in terms of business, the record business was really difficult because we had to pay in 10 days to get the records. But on our end, it was a consignment business. So we'd send 1,000 records to some place and they'd send us, you know, six months later, they'd send us a check and 800 of the records back. Uh-huh. Yeah. Or in, that was in the days of the pirating. So they order 1,000 and send you 1,200. Wow. Which, you know, it was hard that, you know, we had a hard time cash flowing, all that stuff and it was very difficult. I mean, we barely paid ourselves and that kind of stuff. Wow. How did artists come to know you? How did you market the file? Our calling card was that we thought that the artists knew best how to present themselves with instrumentation and, you know, that kind of stuff. So we said that we leave the artistry to the artists. You know, we let them have full creative control. Uh-huh. And, you know, that's one of the bylines that I go by is that I really liked solving creative challenges with a good thought process and technology. Trying to be transparent to the art. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Which is why I've always been on the other side of the camera that I'm on right now. So this must have been a really fun time for you as much as it sounds like at the same time a pressured time. Incredible musical moments. Yes. I mean, I was in the film in Jarrow and, you know, some of the bands and some of the vocalists were fantastic and they were amazing moments, but long hours into the night, as you would guess from art musicians. Yep. And really hard on growing kids and a family. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Absolutely. And it's not a nine to five job. No. No. Especially if you live at the studio, you know, you get up in the morning and people, you know, there's 50 kids there on a school tour and then you have to work to three or four in the next morning. Wow. Wow. Amazing. And at some point you said, this enough's enough. I'm gonna, we're gonna cash your chips in on this. It was a business, you know, trying to sustain the business was difficult. And we ended up having to, you know, declare chapter 11. Okay. And we basically sold the assets to Rounder Records in Boston. Okay. And they continued to release Filo Records for decades afterwards. Wow. Yeah. Wow. So let's go, if we can go back a little bit further in your life again, Michael, are there special people early on in your life that played a role in your, who you've come to be? Yeah, there were a number of people. I would say the most important person in my life was my grandmother, Elise, my dad's mom. She was just always there. She would not judge mental. And she just was an amazing example of how to live. She was, I don't know, she just lived in the moment and she had wonderful ways of guiding us. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, she was just a strong, strong woman. She was probably maybe a little bit under five feet, but strong. She was a powerhouse. And I think my siblings would agree with me with that. She was the nexus of, you know, direction for us. Yeah. You know, even when mom and dad died, she was right there. That's fantastic. Was she close by in Morrisville? She was in Morrisville. In fact, every Sunday, my whole life, we would go to Graham's after her mass. And, you know, that happened through high school, through college. I would bring college buddies with me to Graham's for breakfast and we'd be hungover. And, you know, and then that followed through with my kids. Even living down in Bristol and, you know, in Burlington, every Sunday I'd pack them up and drive over to Graham's because she lived to 102. Wow. Yeah. Fantastic. She ended up in a nursing home, but she, you know, she would be off in her own kind of mantra world, you know, trying to ask God to take her. You'd walk in the room and she would pop right to it and be totally there and ask you about the meeting you had on Tuesday and how was, you know, she was right there. Wow. That's amazing. So, I mean, there were other people in the Morrisville area, one guy named Ron Tarrell who basically owned the local Texaco station, but he was a good friend of my family's and he was a gourmet cook and a Russian historical history buff. I mean, he was just an interesting guy. And he would come to our house, you know, once every couple of three weeks and cook this amazing meal and we would just talk. And, you know, I got to sit with a lot of adults and kind of learn about life that way. Yeah. One of which was a guy named Father Jim Dodge who started out as a, I think he started out as a Methodist or a Congregational and ended up as a priest, a Catholic priest. And he was the priest at Trap Family Lodge. Oh, my goodness. But they didn't provide a place for him to live. So we lived in our cellar. I'm kidding. Yeah, he's a wonderful guy, really wonderful guy, just very personable. And we used to ski with him a lot. Take us out and we'd ski. And, you know, he would come to our, one of the questions you asked was about vacations and, you know, stuff and. We didn't do vacations, but we had a wonderful, wonderful camp on Lake Willoughby, which I still, to this day, that's where my heart is. You've seen the picture I took. That was a really beautiful picture. I hope you'll, we'll be able to show that on this interview. Okay. Yeah, I know I was asked to put some together and I haven't had a chance at this point. I will do it. Anyways, I remember Father Dodge bringing a relic with him to our camp. And he would say mass in our dining area, on our table. And then we'd all go swimming. Interesting. Wow. He's a pretty cool, he's a pretty interesting guy. And of course my dad, my dad was very influential. Yep. He was always very competent at what he did and kind of calm and intelligent and just steady. Which, you know, I go, I go to whenever I get crazy, anxiety-ridden. I just remember dad and my grand. And yeah, it sounds like his mom, him, and actually you have that same sense about you from my experience of you. It's as steady as they go. Wow, thank you. Bring that into your work as well. So a little bit before, a little bit after dad died, I fell in love and got married immediately with a gal that was at UVM when I was there, but we didn't know each other by UVM. And I came back together and had kids immediately. This is early 30s and at the same time, my brother Bill and I started Resolution, which this is after Philo now, right about the same time as Philo, we started Resolution. And we knew that we wanted to keep in the media business. But so we found two other partners who were in the video business because we knew that's where things were going. And so we started Resolution, there are six of us, four partners and then a secretary and, I don't know, maybe there was only five of us. And a producer, that's right. So we started that up and within three years, we had 320 employees. Oh my God. And we sort of invented the concept of, there were two parts to Resolution. The part I was in and one of my partners was in was the production company part. And we did historical documentaries for A&E, Discovery, Turner, PBS, that kind of stuff. And that sort of carried the company for a while while it was learning what it was gonna be. And the other part of the company, started out duplicating audio cassettes for the Bose Corporation and General Motors. They had audio clubs that every month they would release a cassette with stuff. So we started out there and we ended up being the only real-time audio cassette duplicator in the country and the largest. We had 1,200 machines. We could start and stop at the same time and play the master tape and recording. So we would do all that, package them up and sell them to them and that was good. And then we moved the same concept into video for all of the networks that were growing, the food network and just all the different networks that were growing, they had shows that people wanted. So we became the nexus for that. And then it grew into example, food network. Oh, can you also sell our aprons and our knives and our cutting boards and our books? And so we ended up with 260,000 square feet of warehouse. Where? It's now, it's just off Marshall Drive. It's across the street from the old edge there and Yipe Stripes and it's, I think Green Island Coffee has it now. Okay. But we, the four partners built a building prior to the big warehouse, which is now the South Gronington Police Department. Oh, okay. Yeah. Yeah. So, we grew into that and that's part of what the anxiety Yeah. No thing, but it was also fun. I mean, we got to travel around the world shooting amazing stories. We did a four hour special on the history of money. Wow. We did a four hour special on the history of California. Wow. And, you know, it's weird that Vermont company going to California and doing that. And where was that shown on TV? Any. Any. Any. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. We did the history of the great, what it was called floating palaces, but the great ships of the North Atlantic Wow. Back in the turn of the last century. Like, including the Titanic thing. Oh, it's like that. Yeah. Yeah. The Queen Mary and the Queen Elizabeth and just all, you know, the whole life time of all of those things. The luxury boats. Those big luxury boats. Yeah. Yeah. And we got to go on the Queen Mary two passages. I didn't because I was the editor. The editor stays home in a black room. But wow. Yeah. This is amazing. I mean, it's your story almost sounds like Ben Cohen and Jerry Greenfield with Ben and Jerry's ice cream. It starts as a little scoop shop and all of a sudden it's this gigantic business. Well, I mean, not quite. Yeah. We thought, we thought, okay, we'll sell resolution and, you know, I'll be able to have a place in St. John and, you know, right? Didn't happen. Technology eclipsed us. It went from, you know, VHS to downloads. Yeah. And, you know, very compressed for a few years. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So, no St. John's. Okay. But a tremendous, I mean, how did you come to think of doing that? And how did you make those connections for these pretty large corporations that wanted to buy what you had to sell? We, with resolution, the marketplace kept changing and we had to change with it. I think we were really a different company about eight different times. And that was sort of why we were good at it because we could. Yeah. We were pretty nimble about that kind of stuff. Yeah. And my brother Bill had, you know, wonderful marketing capabilities. We had a good marketing department as well. He would always tell the client that he could do something and then he turned to me and say, can we do it? And you would say, okay. I would say, well, hang on, maybe. Yeah. But we were pretty nimble and we had to change every few years. We had to be a different company really. And we just listened and came up with ideas that people wanted. And that obviously for all the like, by low, for all the positive parts of that, you were going home and having a difficult time with that responsibility on your shoulders too. Yeah. Yeah. My favorite brother gives me. They forgive, good. Yes. Families are good for that. You know, we're all human. Well, they have to. Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha. Tell me about your kids. I have two boys. They have been all over the country for various things but have both ended up back here in Burlington. Oh, nice. Which is amazing to me. One is, just got his master's in special ed and is going back, has gone back to school to become a principal. And he and his wife are here in Burlington. She's an attorney and an MSW. Wow. And they both work very hard and have a son who is named after my dad. Nice. His name is Amil. Nice. And my other son, Sam, first son is Hunter. And Sam, he lives here in town as well. His wife is a nurse anesthetist at both Dartmouth and UVM. And he is an aquatic biologist who commutes every two weeks to Iceland, which is where his company is. He's a principal in a company that grows algae for fish food, for food pigments, for imitation meats. And they've just got more and more things happening all the time. And the major markets are pretty much everywhere but the U.S. for some reason. It's a pretty large company. They're growing fast. And I hope his outcome is better than mine was. Both very successful. Sounds like they have good lives and interesting lives. They do. And Sam and Lindsay have two children, Arlo and Eili, four and six. Nice. Yep. So you're a grandpa. That's the best thing I've ever done. It is rewarding, isn't it? Oh gosh. I just love them so much. And I get to spend time with them and they know who I am. I didn't know either of my grandfathers. I'll be damned if they're gonna not know me. That's right. Good for you. Good for you. So when you reflect back, Michael, on the two years you've been around this earth, any words of wisdom, any things that you've gleaned from your life that you would like to share with other people? Sure. I mean, my dad always, and I think my grandmother too, always said this and I use it every day, always get there early and leave it better than you found it. And that's just ingrained back in me and that's how I try to do things. My biggest pet peeve these days is somebody who doesn't show up on time. Yeah, yeah. I think it's really disrespectful. Yeah. But anyways, I heard a song recently that just impressed me, just a little segment of it and it said, and I just, I think this is so cool. In my heart, there is a compass. In my blood, there is a calling. In my head, there is a vision and they call that the dream. Which I just like it. That's beautiful. Say that again, Michael. In my heart, there is a compass. In my blood, there is a calling. In my head, there is a vision and they call that the dream. Wow, that's beautiful. That's a woman named Lori McKenna. That's beautiful. So yeah, I like that a lot too. So now you're doing recovery, coaching in the emergency department at the University of Vermont Medical Center. I am. When I retired, I didn't know who I was because I was always what I did. Yeah. I really got depressed and just was kind of aimless for a little bit and I had to reinvent myself. And photography has really injected itself into my life, both video and still photography. And so I found out, well, thanks to you, I found recovery coaching in the emergency department. And through the Turning Point Center here in Burlington, that opportunity came up and that's when I was aimless. And I didn't know what it was. Nobody knew what it was. Yeah. But I said, okay. And it has been so amazingly fulfilling for me. I think we've helped a number of people. Yeah. I mean, we have seen over nearly 500 people now. And it's just very fulfilling to get to know the docs, the PAs and the nurses. They're going through a hard go right now because there's such a dearth of people. Yeah, yeah. I mean, the number of people in the emergency room working is way down from what I first remember it. Wow. And they're still asked to do every bit as much as ever was asked. Exactly. Yeah. Burnout is pretty high. One of the days I went into the emergency department and there were 19 people there in the morning and I left in the afternoon, there was over 80. Wow. Wow. And the thing that is bothering me now, Gary and a lot of other people is that mental health is such an issue. First of all, I think substance use disorder is all mental health. And people are self-medicating. But the emergency room is the last place that people can go for help. And so it is filling up with mental health people and there are no beds outside to send them to. So they're ending up sitting in the emergency room for eight, 10 days. Wow. You know, they just don't get better in that environment. No, so they're that long, they're staying in the emergency department. Yeah, not all of them. And this is not only adults, kids too. Yeah, exactly, yep. So it's... So, yeah, and you had wanted to be a doctor at one point. I did, that's the medical part that I just really drink it all in. Yeah. Yeah, I love it. And of course, when I was on ski patrol, I did a lot of medical kind of stuff too. All right, okay. And then you've got your photography and I know spend a lot of time finding the right picture, like what's behind you. You know, I know you... That's extemporaneous. I was walking in Battery Park in February a couple of years ago and I didn't have my camera with me except I had my phone and that's what this is. Wow. Best camera you've got is the one you've got with you. That's right. So that's another big slice of who you are right now. So you're doing videography, you're doing photography, you're working up at the emergency department and some of those three things help you define yourself. They have helped me redefine myself. Yes. I mean, this is all kind of happened during COVID too, which is weird. Interesting, huh? A little bit before, but I mean, I've been a photographer all my life. I just haven't been as passionate about it as I am right now. The equipment has really got me going because it's so good now. And I mean, COVID has made us all be pretty isolated. So I've had to do isolating things to stay normal. Yes. And photography, getting out into the, you know, world, hiking, doing a lot of hiking, making a lot of landscapes. And I have fallen in love with butterflies. And I have shot butterflies that I didn't even know existed and they are just so beautiful. Wow, that's amazing. Yeah. I hope you'll share a picture or two of those on this interview as well. I could do that. Yeah. That would be great. So what's the future hope for you? Where are you going? What's the next chapter? Well, for the time being, depending on the powers that be, I really want to stick with the emergency department for a while. I would like to do some more traveling. I've been to Iceland to visit my son's work and took 1500 pictures while I was there. Wow. I only just scratched the surface for that place. It's an amazing place. And I've had those pictures up at the hospital in the hallway in the ICU and they're now over in Maltex building. Oh, wonderful. Okay. So, and I've got to show that my doctor wants to put in her office on the butterflies. But, wonderful. You know, the problem is framing this thing. Yes. You know, that's expensive stuff. So I'd like to do a little bit more traveling. One of my former employees at the record company ended up being an engineer at Sony and then for CNN he did all the football work and he retired and bought a bar in Costa Rica. And I want to go down and visit him and do some photography. Yeah, yeah, a beautiful, lush country. Yeah, so, and I'll go anywhere, really. You know, living on social security and, you know, a halftime job is not having expected to sell my company rather than living on social security. Right, right, yeah. So is there anything that we haven't touched on that you would like to share with the audience, Michael? I think we're pretty good. Yeah, you went down through the list pretty well. It's been a very nice spending time with you and a rich life. I just thought of one of the mottos that I like to go by. Yeah. Actually, there's two of them, but don't get mired in the illusions of the past and the future. You only live in this moment. Yeah. And that has been such a learning curve for me and such a relief for me to realize that I don't have to worry about the past or the future. That's right. I just live right now. One more thing I want to touch on before we close. Your faith, your Catholic faith, what has that meant for you? Say that again, my what? Your Catholic faith. Oh, okay. Well, when I ended up at college, actually when I moved on, I kind of lost track of my Catholic faith. I have found spirituality in the 12 step program and realized I'm mature enough now so I realized some of the stories that I misinterpreted as a young Catholic were in my own mind. It was what I came to. I didn't really like the God that was imposed on me back then. And again, I found my own spirituality. I don't consider myself a recovering Catholic. Okay. And although, you know, loved Father Dodge who lived with us and many priests and, you know, I don't have any extra grimes against it. I just have found my own thing. You found your own path. That's it. Yup. And part of that is another saying that I really like. And I think this came from Eckhart Tolle and that is death is not the opposite of life. Death is the opposite of birth and life is an eternal continuum. That's sort of relieving to hear that. Exactly. Yeah. And you're living it. I'm trying. Yeah, you're doing a darn good job, Michael. Well, I just wanted to tell you how much you've meant to me in my work at the turning point and how you brought that organization into its own self that was kind of blundering along, you know, all with good intention. But, you know, Gary DeCarolis brought it into a real world scenario that is making a big difference. Okay. Well, thank you. Thank you. Thank you for your time today too. My pleasure. Had a good time. Yeah. Same here. You're on the corner. Take care. All right. Bye-bye.