 Life is good. Oh, excellent. We like to hear this. Yeah. Jeff, have you been doing most of your stuff through the payer subgroup? Is that correct? Lately, yes. Okay. Have you spent much time lately with patient at all? I haven't. Okay. All right. We're in the process of switching over to a new lead for patient. And Dennis, who's out of Switzerland, and so we're probably going to be making an announcement sometime soon about sort of spinning that back up again. And I seem to recall that you were involved in patients sometime ago. That's right. When I was more working on that end of that. So, okay. All right. Good to know. Thanks for that. Well, this is Edward at the top of the hour, and we have very few people and particularly our guest speaker. Hello. Good God. So do you have my email, Rich? Since yesterday I saw yours daylight. Well, so we are at the top of the hour. So I do want to get started and I think I suspect folks will start to dial in as we get started. Good morning, Ken. Ken, do you want to introduce yourself again? And I apologize. I know you've been on the calls before. I want to say you're on the East coast somewhere. Oh, I heard something, but not a whole lot. Or maybe, maybe Ken's not quite there yet. Oh, good morning, Kamlesh. There's Ravish. Good morning. And Ravish, don't have audio with you quite yet. Yeah, hi Rik. Come this here. How are you? Good morning. Good afternoon. Good evening to you. How are you? Yeah, I'm good. How are you? Very good. Thank you. All right, well, we'll get started. And as I say, it looks like people are just now coming in. So good morning. Good evening to everybody. Great to have you on the call. And it looks like Ravish is getting sort of set up right now, but we've got a little bit of introduction to get through and then we'll hand over to Ravish in very short order. So you should have on the screen, I'm sharing our agenda for the day. And as always for our HC sick meetings, we record these events as well. There's our antitrust slide, which feel free to read through it, but the upshot of it is be a good person. And I don't see anyone new on the call this morning. So, but can I, I'd ask you to reintroduce yourself only because I forget. I seem to remember you're out on the East Coast. Is that correct? Yeah, that's fine. Yeah, my name is Ken Jensen. I work for Centera Health Systems. I was actually out of Norfolk, but I'm in based in Virginia Beach, Virginia. Yeah. Okay. All right. I was trying to remember the name of your company. Great, great to have you on the call again. Thanks for that, Ken. And like I said, I suspect people will start to sort of filter in over the course of the morning out here in the Seattle area. It is, it's very overcast. It's oddly, oddly overcast and very cool. So a very unusual and it seems just like just like a slow morning. So maybe it's overcast in Seattle. Really? Well, the past few days it's been unusually warm. It's been in the mid 80s, which is very strange. The weather has absolutely been changing over the course of the past few years or so. So I'll figure. All right. So I do want to make one community announcements. This has been sort of an ongoing announcement. I know the team has continued to work on this, but out of Cambridge University, we have a couple of folks that are developing the next generation of their global bench global block blockchain benchmarking study. And so they have contacted us and asked that if anyone is doing work with production level, blockchain solutions in the healthcare space that, that you please contact them. And you'll be able to sort of get your, your work published into their, into their paper that they're producing. Anything else anyone on the call wants to make under the sort of auspices of community announcement. Okay. Good morning. Yes. Good morning. How are you? Very good. Did you have one quick announcement, Rich? I wanted to make is the, there is a physical need that I'm working with the Maryland Center for Entrepreneurship sometime in July. I think it would be a, either a second week of July or third week of July. It's still working out dates. So just wanted to give a heads up. It's going to be in Columbia, Maryland, kind of for a half a day thing. And I have secured the facility and all. And once we finalize the date, I will get that out to everyone. If you are in the area around Columbia, Maryland, then it would be good to join. I am going as part of that, you know, from pay or subgroup perspective, I am reaching out to the payers here who specifically invite them more in line with our thought process and the fair subgroup to start working on a real POC. So just wanted to quickly put this out there. Oh, good. Okay. And you'll sort of notify membership with the details when those come through. Yes. It'll be another week or so. I will have everything finalizing out of the details. Excellent. Okay. Well, very good. Thank you. Well, if anyone else, if no one else has a comment as far as community announcements go, let's sort of just segue right over to Ravish and his presentation. So many of you probably already know Ravish. He's the lead of our payer subgroup as well. He's CEO of, is it Joget or Joget? Or how do you? Joget. Joget. And a great organization that Ravish will be talking about. And I suspect it'll be related to hyperledger fabric. And so that's correct. How could I have guessed? The slides for Ravish's presentation are up on the wiki already. So Ravish, if you want to sort of take over, feel free to take the screen over. And the rest of the morning is really yours probably until about quarter to the hour. And that'll give us plenty of time for Q&A. Okay. And let me share my screen so I don't know when you guys see it. Perfect. Looking good. Okay. So let me just level set what we are getting into for a discussion and then we can go from there. So we have been, I am not sure what's, it's give me one second. I think something is causing a problem. Give me one second. Sure. I saw the presentation. So you were awfully close. Oh, and good morning, Wendy. I didn't. I just saw they just got on the call. Good morning. Good morning to everyone. Happy Friday. Happy Friday. Thank you, Wendy. Can you guys see it now? Yeah. Yeah, here we go. Okay. Okay. So just quickly talking about what, why I thought it would be a good idea to share the presentation here. I think we have been in discussions with various work groups. We have had a lot of discussions around, especially in healthcare also, we had a lot of discussions around possible use cases where it would be better to leverage blockchain and the real problem is that obviously if you are a business user, you know less about blockchain, you have no idea about the coding and all. And blockchain as being a technology problem is a business problem also. So I thought it would be good to just hear from everyone. A quick minute on what do you think is blockchain adoption and a technical problem or a business problem? Anyone? So this is rich. So I'll say generally speaking, it's a business problem. And I'll even say it's more political than anything else, particularly in the healthcare space. But that's just my take on it. Yep. So Rich, you are, I mean at least I share the thoughts. It's not a fact, but definitely I see that more so technical, it's more of a business problem and really feeling the business process around how you will leverage blockchain is another level of problem that we need to deal with. And talking about so many stakeholders like in healthcare, obviously blockchain extends itself to engage multiple parties if you will as one of the attributes itself. So it definitely is a business problem and a complicated business problem. And when we talk about adoption, at least these are my thoughts on why we see a slower adoption if you will from technology like blockchain, which has a lot more validity to what we are doing today and tomorrow. So one is obviously there is a usage complication. It's difficult to define what business, how business will use it, where it will use it, so on and so forth. When we talk about using the blockchain, things have to be done a little differently, which leads to resistance and change. That's another problem. Absence of regulation itself, like you talk about, it's more of a political than a technology problem, engaging multiple parties, a perception of immaturity. So it's all those reasons why it becomes very difficult to move a blockchain project in any organization. On top of that, if there is an organization today who does not have enthusiasts who are actively trying to learn blockchain and want to do a proof of concept, there is just a longer way to get there now because I cannot show it to my management. It becomes difficult to convince about a project. And just wanted to take a pause and talk about innovation, how innovation happens. The acceptance or adoption of any new concepts in any organization or amongst consumers is really proportional to your ability to demonstrate your proof of concept. If you can show them working, like for example, you go to Hyperledge Fabric, the first thing is to get started and there is a Fabcar tutorial, if you will, that talks about something in action that you can relate to. Everyone buys cars, so you can relate to that example and you can really see what it means and how it can benefit in a scenario or how it will work. And that is what is really required to fuel blockchain adoption, if you will. There are not a lot of blockchain developers, if you look at it. Obviously, it's growing based on the interest, but there are no, like they are searching for someone who has this in production. Well, guess what? The first step is the POC in an organization to make sure that this really can work. How do you get there? When you have lack of resources, when you have no one experience in blockchain within an organization, or you may be able to source someone externally to do that, but then your business processes are still your business processes, you still need a top process how you will leverage the technology internally. So that's the overall innovation cycle, if you will. And the only thing, or at least the critical thing to ensure that your team is able to continuously deliver and innovate, be it blockchain or any other technology, there is only one factor that at least comes to my mind, which is empowerment. If you have enabled your teams or empowered your teams to do POCs to showcase what their concepts, what the concepts they are talking about, that's what matters the most. And if you look at new technologies, you can mobile look at anything that has a higher level of adoption is because of the empowerment of the technology itself. Either the consumer is empowered to leverage the technology or your people are empowered to deploy the technology. These are the two major factors that contribute towards any innovation. And that's what we are talking about in blockchain. How do I do that? How can I, with my limited resources, be able to, if I am in IT and I want to showcase business that this really has value, how can I do that with very limited resources? So, in that comes a quick discussion about local platforms. I'm sure you guys might be familiar with, there is a lot of hype that Gartner has right now or Forester or any of these guys. So much so, Gartner is talking about 50 to 60% of development in any large enterprise will happen using some of these tools. So, I am not going to go in details, but the essence of this message is, we have to empower non coders or more so business users to be able to talk about how they can leverage the blockchain technology if you will and morph their processes to better leverage the blockchain technology tomorrow. And that's something that can be done by local platforms. So, if you talk about local platforms, there are a few things I want to quickly mention about and guys just jump in and ask questions if I am going too fast. We are talking about four major capabilities, any local platform. Number one is your ability to create drag and drop and create forms. In the fab called model, you are talking about registering a vehicle. You have to create a form that can capture the information for the vehicle. The second piece is your overall process. Somebody summits the information, somebody reviews this website and you are ready to write on the chain. That's a process, business process if you will that gets built outside the chain before you write to the blockchain. So that's another piece of capability. Again, these are all drag and drop capabilities available today. The third is to look at that information, to view that information, query that information so on and so forth. And the fourth piece is ability to stitch all this together into an application wherein you can create some menu items you can navigate so on and so forth. So these are some major capabilities in any local platform and should be there if you will. So just to give you an idea what does it mean when I talk about local platform? This is the fun part. I have a developer who may not know how to or let's say there is a blockchain developer who does not know how to create screens, how to create the whole application but definitely knows about blockchain or vice versa. I have a business user who is savvy enough to put together an application that will work around a blockchain framework. What we have done at Joget is we have created an integration with Hyperledger Fabric wherein you can, you know, install the plugin, configure the plugin to connect to the Fabric network and you can build around it any business application. And how you do that is basically ability to drag and drop, create forms, create process, in that process you create a step to write to a chain that's where the Fabric plugin comes into picture. So you don't have to worry about the screens that you have to build, you don't have to worry about the process that you have to build, you have to worry about writing the data that you're capturing or part of the data that you're capturing in the chain you can use the Fabric plugin to write to the Fabric network. And, you know, you can query that information all by drag and drop features. The reason why we did that, just so everyone understands, the reason why we did this specifically, we were doing this for AI, we were doing this for overall enterprise business applications. But I felt in various discussions, in various, you know, topics around use cases, there was enough meat to talk about the use case but if I have to really put that project in motion I have to create a lot around blockchain before I really start leveraging blockchain. I have to create a process around it, I have to create a bunch of screens to capture the data around it and then I can integrate with blockchain, you know, like Hyperlegia. We went ahead and created this plugin for our platform to integrate with Fabric. And what it does is, you can just Google it and you will be able to find it. There is a big tutorial around how to start with Jogit. You don't have to have a prerequisite to know what Jogit is quite frankly because it's all visual. If I get a chance towards the end I will definitely, you know, showcase, you know, what Jogit is. But essentially you have a Fabric network running, if you will. And Hyperlegia Fabric Network, if you follow the tutorial, their tutorial, it is pretty straightforward to download a Docker image and start. Can a business user do it? Maybe, maybe not. But definitely any blockchain developer or any IT person can definitely install and run the Fabric network. They may not know what else to do around it but definitely they can do it. Jogit Enterprise Edition, it takes like 10 minutes to just run and install and it's an open source. You can download the Community Edition also and you can do it, you know, just like Hyperlegia Fabric, Jogit is also an open source. It also gives me this, this blog, if you will, let me just see if I can open up that. This blog takes you through if you have no idea about blockchain and no idea about Jogit, you start from the beginning, it will give you a quick overview of blockchain and what DLT is. It will give you an idea of Hyperlegia Fabric, what Hyperlegia Fabric is. It will give you, introduce you to some key concepts, you know, when it comes to Fabric, what is a ledger, what is a node, you know, who is a member, transactions, ordering service, so on and so forth. It just gives you a quick overview and I mean these are all linked to the Hyperlegia Fabric knowledge base. And Ravish, just very quickly, when you clicked on the link to that blog, it didn't look like it updated the screen properly, so we're still seeing your presentation. Oh, I am sorry. Let me just share my desktop that might be easier. I'm glad that you brought this up. Yeah, there we go. Yeah. So if you go through this blog and you can just Google Blockchain Hyperlegia Fabric and Joget and you will find it. It shows you, it will give you a quick introduction. It will give you an introduction about the blockchain and what, you know, distributed ledger is. What is Hyperlegia Fabric? I talked about the Fabric concepts and the example that they have used and then it goes into how you will build the app. So basically either query from the chain or write to the chain. That's the essence of, you know, and the example that they've used as Fabcar if you are familiar with that, you can, you know, just continue and build the app. Application build out is pretty straightforward. You see some of these screens as an example. And just to quickly, in this blog, you have links to everything that you need to try it out. You can download the sample application also. It is the link. You can download the plugin if you want to try it. You can download the, you know, Joget. You can download Hyperlegia Fabric. All is completely open source and available to anyone. And if you download the app and you try to run the app, you can see the screens that will capture the data here. Again, these are all, you create these screens by, you know, literally dragging and dropping. And then let me take you to, you know, this is just a view. There is a form builder in Joget. You can just drag and drop and create the applications. You can then create the full CRUD operations if you will, if you use enterprise edition, community edition, you will have to do a little bit more. And then there are some configuration screens if you will. You will see that this is where you really configure the plugin to give information about which network to connect, whether you are an existing user on that network or registered user or create a user. So it has it will give you all the information that you need to or capture all the information that is required to connect to a Hyperlegia fabric network if it's up and running. And it has a very simple interface to add parameters. This is just a Fabcar example, but you can add any number of parameters that you need to put it in a chain or read from the chain. And again, this is all configurable and visual if you will. And this is a very, very detailed example and here is the process wherein it's saying invoking the fabric transaction that will write to the chain. And here is a very simple way of mapping the arguments or the variables if you will that will capture the information from the screen that you want to write to the chain. And let me go back to my presentation here. So there are these giving information about the plugin what you have to sorry. These are the screen that I shared just now and what it creates is basically the application by virtue of just dragging and dropping. And essentially you will be able to create an application on a blockchain hyperlegia fabric if you want to do a POC. This is a really good way to download an open source which is fabric as well as yogurt and literally try it out all by yourself. Even if I would encourage even if you don't know any coding just follow the tutorial and you will be surprised that you will be able to create a really working web application working with fabric behind the scenes to really you know, capture some information right to a chain and read from the chain. I'll just take a pause here. I know I might have gone through faster but this is really not complicated information to go through as well. So this looks really good Ravish. So can you tell me a little bit more about, you said this is an open source project but I think also mentioned there's a community edition and an enterprise edition. What's the distinction between the two? Community edition is just open source community edition. Enterprise edition has additional features like auto generation of an app. You will not have that in community edition but community edition is fully capable of building any kind of app also. It's just that there are additional features, more from enterprise grade features if you will you know integration with LDAP and things like that which may be needed, which may not be needed depending on what you're doing. With community edition you can really do you can really build the app as well. I see. Okay. And basically what you're describing today could be applicable to the community edition just as well. It is applicable to community edition as well. It's just that there is a step in the blog that talks about the enterprise edition if you create a form and you want to create CRUD operations it just is a single click to do that. In community edition you just have to create three forms that's all. I see. Okay. Thank you. Any other questions? I would rather pose a question to if you are is anyone trying anything from blockchain perspective trying to build an application and what are your challenges today? So this is Johnny. So mostly it's interoperability at this point, so you can have actually like seamless integration with other systems. When you say interoperability you are referring to interoperability between chains or different types of chains. Not to mention semantics so fabric doesn't do well with semantic interoperability with concepts. Are you building the application for an enterprise or an end consumer? Both. Any other questions or challenges anyone wants to share? I have a question or a challenge but it would be really more informative I think about how to build something just as a demo live demo. I was actually going to get there. I'll quickly showcase how you can build an app and you'll give you an idea how you can build a process and build an app and obviously one of the steps is the plugin configuration. We will need a little more time to get there but I can definitely show you when I'm talking about building an app, what it means. Before we go there, Johnny one question I have for you was it a management decision you want to do this or before doing that you went through the cycles of conceptualization and here is what we want to do. So I'm pretty deep in the weeds with technological solutions so I don't think the issue ultimately is semantics. Going back to your car example what are you doing so that there's an ecosystem that understands that car not just your bespoke customer. Okay. Johnny this is Rich. Can you elaborate on your question I'm curious to understand sort of the context of where you're coming from on this. So within fabric so you have a great pipeline for building out and modeling but the issue really in my mind is one of semantics meaning behind the model and this is where a lot of the interoperability it's a hyper ledger actually could have an enormous strength of actually is creating meaning behind the data and ultimately that facilitating interoperability so not to mention just the schema it's for your model but also how do you extend the schema and or the concepts behind it. So a lot of fabric actually and I've seen a lot of these sort of wrappers that make it easy for engineers or programmers to get off the ground and actually write something and they write it but it actually like it's then it's about well is it interoperable with other system what is this car and the model and the attributes and so you've just created one off so how do we actually create economies at scale. So sort of common schemas or dictionaries across chain is what you're thinking about. Yeah, I understand. So some sort of commonality. So fire for those those of us in the healthcare space that are familiar with fire fast health interoperability resource. They use a similar concept which is a I think it's called a dictionary. I forget exactly what it's called but the idea is the only way that you're going to see commonality across multiple EHR platforms is that common common dictionary so that you know there's consistency in terminology and that really is sort of the enabler for interoperability and I think Johnny that's kind of what you're what you may be getting to here. Yeah, so fire I mean it's I have an involved in fire for a number of years and I think it's it's fascinating. I think it's great but it's sort of web 2.0 technology those are restful apis mostly using you know a server endpoints but the Jason schemas that fire facilitates actually is a starting point. The challenge is even though you have this robust dictionary is ultimately is the semantics is that can code up a CBC 100 different ways doesn't mean it's interoperable that we're actually come to some commonality about the meaning behind the values. We just have sexually something to hang our hat on as far as like a best guess for actually coding it up. So because there's so many options within fire actually leads to the lack of interoperability to the semantics behind it of the meaning of this this CBC or Kim seven or I do genetic so it's really that's even actually more comprehensive and complicated yeah yeah I think Johnny most increment in fire that you'd be looking at would be a codable concept codable concept identifies the code system and the concept within that system fire itself doesn't really do anything except provide you with a structure that allows you to model but it doesn't provide the semantics as you say codable concept really is the smallest bit of information in there that does provide that interoperability and if that codable concept is snowman or or ICD-10 or CPT then you have some way to represent the knowledge that you're speaking about the problem there is that not all of these are used in an interoperable way so the coding is not necessarily interoperable so you can have an ICD-10 code that will map to multiple snowmen identities and I think that that's a challenge but that's not a really challenge of a blockchain that's just a challenge that you have in healthcare I think but yeah and I think this is where we need to not rediscover the same mistakes that we've made in the past and I think so I'm just harping on this because I think you asked a question as far as what other hiccups and this is actually the biggest hiccup that I think alright so we have a flashy new distributed ledger and new database shiny object that and yet we still can't get to interoperability so actually Johnny just to give a perspective at least from my end from business world standpoint for a moment think about what you were describing that interoperability issue is resolved for a moment I'm hypothetically because you are going to do two I don't even call it technically a semantics if you will but for a moment think about that issue is disappeared and magically we have figured this out and there are no interoperability issues the business problem as it stands today remains exactly where it was earlier today also because ultimately when you resolve that issue and you start working with the business folks to create applications around this and process around this we are going to be exactly the same state as we are tomorrow those challenges will continue to exist for the interoperability that you are talking about because a number of dictionaries come and there are mappings that just create I mean just this is an ongoing problem but when you turn around to the business world they are left so behind that for them to catch up on a technology is another age to come so it's a continuous the way I look at it from overall technology adoption perspective blockchain AI until unless you commoditize this and give the power in the business hands to really model what they want they will then come back with the real issues like interoperability or security or some of those things that you can really surface and resolve in a context in a contextual way right now we are trying to resolve security as a security so broad security in healthcare means completely different than a end consumer you know world so there are there are layers of problems if you will but the first step towards this is helping them conceptualize helping them demonstrate what is required and then I can get to the other deeper technical problems the business world is left so behind right now you talk to them about blockchain they have no idea or no ability to think through and even talk about a POC I mean nobody is ready to fund a POC in any organization today handful organizations are trying to take a leap and work through this you pick majority of the organizations they can't think about spending money to showcase something if you will even showcase something if you will now if I think if innovation has to happen in this space the business world has to have some tools to you know create things for themselves to showcase what are they expecting in order to get the funding in order to move the world in blockchain that's my my two cents I don't know how others think so just going back to touch on what Johnny was saying I agree that there are certain areas within the clinical realm that are more difficult to be semantically interoperable other things such as pharmacy lab results I think these are I think these are very I think these are pretty it can be represented using a code system and fire to be interoperable of knowledge artifacts there are others such as diagnoses higher level results concepts that may be harder to say they semantically mean the same thing at one institution as at the other the interpretation may be different but I think that if we begin to narrow down it can be represented and look at how we do that and maybe apply that to some of the other areas I think some progress can be made I don't think that until the medical field has an agreement on how to represent certain knowledge that you're ever going to have 100% consensus but at some point if you have critical mass people are going to have to say look does this person have diabetes type 2 or not does this person have symptoms of post-traumatic stress disorder or not and I think that these harder things to diagnose will find a solution just through the way that you narrow the problems down anyway I do think that there is a certain level of interoperability especially in pharmacy and lab that you can begin to work with maybe some of the higher level concepts are still elusive so I think that in saying that the healthcare interoperability subgroup will be concentrated on areas that you can well define and can have somatic interoperability cross-chain we'll have to depend on how the models of chains differ but if they're a common model such as snowman or simi I mean sorry fire or simi then I think there will be some way forward there like guaranteed it seems reasonable to assume well plus one Steven for mentioning the health interoperability subgroup so thanks for that yeah anyways I just one quick thing I thought since Jeff you asked this question to really demo you know this is a form builder basically what you do is you create an app and then you go create a form and you can literally drag and drop and add fields to the form you can preview what you're building and then there is similar to this there is a process builder where you can literally you know create a process again by dragging and dropping and you know one of the step in the process is to write into a chain or read into a chain that's where you configure the plugin and ask the question about what is the difference between community edition and enterprise edition you probably will see most of the things in community edition other than you know when you are looking at generate app this just gives a if I have created a form I can just click on it and create you know current operations for that form and attach a process before in just a single click so this just super accelerates what you're doing but you can create the form you can create the you know retrieval of the information for that form again these are all drag and drops let's say I want to add another field I just drag and drop I want to create search filters I just drag and drop and do that but most of focusing on hyper ledger if you will you can you know all this information if you are writing to a chain or reading from a chain there is a step in there to really configure a plugin as I said and this is pretty detailed if anyone wants to try you can try it it gives you all the steps to you know configure the hyper ledger fabric plugin and then connect to it and write to the network and read from the network and everything around it it's more of a business application or a business process and you can see there are you know the transactions that you configure for read or write or basically it's either a query or an update to the in this example Fabcar network any other questions you know just to add to this we have been talking about a bunch of you know POCs of you will have proof of concept like with the donor milk and all so now if I when that POC started we didn't have the plugin but I know if you just to do using hyper ledger fabric and probably you know less than a week of working application can be demonstrated very interesting so do you have an actual sort of working end product to show or something available on your website that we can sort of play with yes I think as I mentioned on the blog if anyone wants to just not build the application and just try it out there is in this blog as I mentioned earlier there is this application you just download it and once you install Joget or you can just go online to Jogetcloud.com and just create a free trial account it won't even ask you for credit card but you can download this application rich and this application when you download is the same application that is in the example so you can really try it out. Oh excellent okay good thank you I had a team member who was going to be joining to demo this app itself unfortunately I think we changed it, I preponed the date and I did not change his calendar and he could not join today but nonetheless you should have it it's pretty simple working fabric network or you just download and have a fabric network you can just download this app and follow this simple tutorial to see the application working. Excellent thank you and this has the same the Fabcar example that is in the Fabric tutorial also. Well if we have no other questions thank you Ravish so much for the presentation very briefly what's sort of the history of the product how long has it been around for what's what are your plans going forward so forth yeah so the product has been around for almost 10 years now rich so it is being used in a number of enterprises the reason why I'm more interested in a topic here is to help facilitate some proof of concepts if we have something that we want to showcase very quickly from business standpoint that has to be on hyper ledger fabric I think that can be done pretty quickly and that shows the that brings the blockchain capability to the surface also to the business world we have been I mean you've been around since 2009 so open source since 2009 and there has been a lot of focus on no code no code application development recently since I would say since 2015 and 16 when it caught up and it's kind of catching a lot of attention if you will and we do have almost 200 customers across the globe with Fortune 500 on the list so there is a if you try it out we will know what I'm talking about when it comes to building an application and looking it up to the fabric it can be done pretty quickly so if there are use cases that you want to demonstrate you definitely can leverage the capability and do it excellent and then sort of a follow on so if I develop a solution through Joget is it a case then that I have the sort of ongoing dependency or does the end product operate as a standalone sort of fabric solution and I'm thinking in terms of sort of the banana file and all the sort of the back end components or does it still sort of end up having to require using the Joget sort of front which is to say I think what you are talking about is as I said Joget is an open source so you are not yes it will require Joget if you build an app in Joget it will require Joget but as I said earlier I want this discussion to be less about Joget more about the capability which is open source you don't need to buy Joget you can build the same application in Community Edition and the intent is to provide ability to showcase a business application that is connected to that is running on a blockchain technology so yes if you from enterprise perspective you start using it yes you have to continue using because the application is built on a platform runs on the platform but from trying out perspective use open source that's what we are here for you know that's what Zed had or Linux any of these organizations are doing is to empower you by not limiting you you know I would say for licenses you have the ability to download you have the ability to try out you have the ability to make it work if you want to take the Community Edition in your production you can do that too it's absolutely excellent well thank you and thanks again for the presentation Ravish very interesting and I can imagine you know even some maybe some of our work groups maybe making use of the product just to help you know very quickly spin up some sort of proofs of concept without having to you know spend a tremendous amount of time at sort of the pure development level of course that's what I enjoy so but still it's a great business case and I'm happy to know that it's available out there and sort of you know lowers the bar for some folks for getting a working product out in the marketplace so thank you for that and Rich the I'm sorry just to add to that I know if we are talking about doing a proof of concept today in any of the work groups I really need to source in a bunch of people who can put some screens together a bunch of people who can put some services together to integrate with Hyperledger this is anything you created in Jogit has a back-end API generated so you don't need to write services to fetch the data out for any integration also so it just gives you an ability to accelerate a POC if you will on Hyperledger fabric excellent yeah and I presume that's all well documented so that you know those of us that decide to sort of pursue this have access to I think you even said there's some very good tutorials that are out there out on the blog and so forth excellent but does anyone have any final questions for Ravish okay well thank you Ravish very interesting and again like I said I'm very happy to hear that we have this product out in the market at least predominantly open source for folks to be able to get started with a low-code no-code solution for fabric and do you have any plans for sort of branching beyond fabric maybe into sawtooth or any of the other sort of platforms yes we're looking into it Rich so something might be coming later this year okay oh well good to know excellent alrighty so we are coming up just to the top of the hour we got a few minutes left just sort of as an FYI our next meeting is two weeks out from today we're going to be back on a regular general meeting schedule so we will not be at least at this moment anyway we're not planning on hosting a guest speaker my intent going forward is to try to sort of stagger guest speakers with general meetings in the more traditional sense and that really gives subgroups and ad hoc teams an opportunity sort of status membership on where they're at on things now that said we do get and it seems to be increasingly so we do get asks for the opportunity to present and so we're just trying to balance that back and forth to the extent that it's possible it's great to know that as this group continues to sort of grow and mature and have sort of broader reach and again this is global it's nice to be able to see organizations from around the world coming to this membership to present for the sake of improving black chain technologies in the healthcare space so we're going to try to stagger it to the extent that we can and like I said we tend to periodically have instances where we just really there's a real strong desire to sort of have multiple presentations coming along so and again thanks to Ravish for his presentation and I believe we have a couple of other presentations sort of in the queue and I'll sort of status membership when that happens coming up in the next few months let's see any other comments before we close out for the week so I'll sort of put Steven on the spotlight so Steven and I have been going back and forth so we're very close to spinning up the Health Interoperability subgroup and so that'll be happening presumably in the next couple of weeks what do you think Steven? Yeah I think so I think not so much that my calendar has cleared but I am able to schedule time at least a couple of weeks two to three hours every week so yes I would like to start working on this there seems to be a lot of interest Absolutely yeah that's very true and I think that we just need to organize a forum for it and start working through some of the issues that John had brought up today and others had brought up before Yeah yeah exactly and Johnny great great comments because I believe your observations are very much sort of insinuated in much of the work that's going on in the healthcare space whether it relates directly to blockchain technologies or not it's sort of something that's pervasive when it comes to interoperability and then finally before we do close out I do want to mention that the patient member subgroup has just done a recent change over to leadership so Dennis Kozen and he's out of Switzerland he'll be taking over for oh gosh and I just slipped my mind it was terrible Benjamin Digi Ben is here in Seattle he works at Amazon and he and I have been working together and his professional career is taking off and so he's had to end the reigns over so expect sort of maybe a reboot of sorts with the patient member subgroup and that'll be we'll see an email generated through the listserv for that so if you have a particular interest in sort of the patient focus sort of the patient centric aspects of blockchain technologies it's probably a great opportunity now as we sort of spin this organization this subgroup back up again with sort of a new focus and some fresh thinking to that subgroup so that'll be happening very soon as well alrighty well I think that's all we've got for today thanks so much for your participation in today's meeting and we will see you in exactly two weeks have a great weekend thanks Chris thank you take care