 From around the globe, it's theCUBE with digital coverage of DockerCon Live 2020, brought to you by Docker and its ecosystem partners. Welcome back to theCUBE's coverage here at the DockerCon, virtual headquarters, anchor desk here in the Palo Alto studios. We're quarantined in this virtual event of DockerCon. I'm John Furrier, host along with Jenny Bertio, John Chrysler, Peter McKee, variety of other folks who are moderating and weaving in and out of the sessions. But here we have a live sessions with Justin Graham, vice president of the product group at Docker. Justin, thanks for coming in. DockerCon virtual 20. Absolutely happy to be here from my home office in Seattle, Washington, where it is almost sunny. You had a great back trip. We're seeing him in the chat. You got a bandwidth, a lot of bandwidth there, looking good, smiling. What a day for Docker. Global event, 77,000 people registered. It's just been an awesome party. It's been great. I could hardly sleep last night. I was up at five this morning. I was telling my son about it at breakfast. I interrupted his Zoom school and he talked a little bit about it. So it's just been awesome. I've been waiting for this interview slot for the most of the day. So yeah, I got to tell the kids to get off, download those gigabytes of new game updates and get off Netflix. I hear you, but you got good bandwidth. Let's get into it. We love your position, VP of product at a company that's super technical, a lot of software, a lot of cloud. You got a good view of the landscape of what the current situation is relative to the product, the deals that are going on, when this was announced here, Sneak, Microsoft expansion, multiple clouds, as well as the roadmap and community interaction. So you got a lot going on. You got your fingers in all the action. You get the keys to the kingdom, as we say in the product side of things. What's the story today from your perspective around DockerCon? What's the most important thing people should know about of what's going on with this new Docker? I'll see ease of use, we've heard a lot about what's going on. So I'll start with people. We are hyper focused on helping developers and development teams build and ship applications. That's what we're focused on. That's what we wake up every day thinking about. And if we double click on that a minute in terms of what that means, if you think about where source control ends and having a running application on some production compute in the cloud on the other end, there's a whole lot that needs to happen in the middle of those two things. And we hear from our development community and we see from those folks, there's a lot of complexity and choices and options and things in the middle there. And we really want to help streamline the creation of those pipelines to get those apps moving to production as fastly and as quickly as possible. And you can see it in some of the results and some of the sessions, one session coming up at around four around how pipelining with Docker help increase the problem solving around curing cancer, really solving saving people's lives to the front lines with COVID-19, to business value. So you're seeing, again, Docker coming back into the fold relative to the simple value proposition of making things super easy for developers, but on top of the mega trend of microservices. So outside of some of these awesome sessions where there's learning, the hardcore sessions here at DockerCon are around microservices. From monitoring, you name it, not a trivial thing because you got stateless and state, all kinds of new things are going on with multiple clouds. So not an easy road to kind of grok or understand, you have to manage that. What are people paying attention to? What is happening? Yeah, I think, first off, I'll say, one of the things that I'm super passionate about is increasing access to technology. So the greatest and best ideas can get bubbled up to the top and exposed no matter where they come from, whom they come from, et cetera. And I think one of the things that makes that hard or that makes that complex is just how much developers need to understand or even emerging developers need to understand just to even get started. You know, languages, IDEs, packaging, building, where do you ship to? If you pick a certain cloud or endpoint, you have to understand networking and storage and identity models are just so much you have to absorb. So we're hyper focused on how can we make that complex super easy? And these are all the things that we get asked questions on and we get interacted with on our public roadmap and other places to help with. So that's, you know, the biggest things that you're going to see coming out of Docker starting, you know, now and moving forward will be serving that end. Let's talk about some of the new execution successes you guys had. Obviously, Sneak is security shifting left. That's a major, I think a killer win for Sneak. Obviously, getting access to millions of developers use Docker. And vice versa, you get, you know, into the shifting left, you get security in that workflow piece. Microsoft expanded relationships interesting as well because, you know, Microsoft's got a robust tech developer ecosystem. They have their own tools. So you see this symbionic relationship with Docker again coming into the fold where there's a lot of working together going on. Explain that meaning, what does that mean? So you're on the back of the refocus Docker and our hyper focus on developers and development teams. One of the core tenants of the how. So, you know, before that was the what. This is the how we're going to go do it is by partnering with the ecosystem as much as possible and bringing the best of breed in front of developers in a way that they can most easily consume. So if you take the Sneak partnership that was just a match, you know, a match made in developer dopamine as Sean Connolly would say, you know, we're hyper focused on developers and development teams and sneaks and Sneak is also hyper focused on making it as easy as possible for developers and development teams to stay secure ship fast and stay secure. So it really just matched up super well. And then if you think, well, how do we even get there in the first place? Well, we launched our public roadmap a few months ago, which was the first that Docker's ever done. And one of the first things that comes onto that public roadmap is image vulnerability scanning. For Docker at that time, it was really just focused on Docker hub in terms of how it came through the roadmap. It got upvoted a bunch. There's been some interaction. And then we thought, well, why just like checking that box isn't enough, right? It's just checking the box. What can we do that really brings the sort of the promise of the Docker experience to something like this? And, you know, Sneak was an immediate, an immediate thought in that respect. And we just, you know, we just really got in touch with them and we just saw eye-to-eye almost immediately. And then, you know, off the rest went. The second piece of it was really around, well, why just do it in Docker hub? What about Docker desktop? You know, it's downloaded 80,000 times a week and it's got 2.2 million active installations, you know, on a weekly basis. You know, what about those folks? So we decided to raise the bar again and say, hey, let's make sure that this partnership includes not only Docker hub, but Docker desktop. So you'll be able, when we launch this, to scan your images locally on Docker desktop. Awesome. I see you getting some phone calls in there. You got to hit the end button real quick. I saw that in there. Got an interesting chat I wanted. It's kind of lightening things up a little bit from Brian Stevenson. He says, you know, Justin, what glasses are those? So he wants to know what kind of glasses you're wearing. So, yeah. They're glasses that I think signal that I turned 40 last year. I'd say it's for your gaming environments, the blue light glasses, you know. But I'm not going to say where they came from because it's probably not going to engender a bunch of positive good, but they're nice glasses. They help me see the computer screen and make sure that I'm not fat-fingering my CLI commands. Well, us old guys need the glasses, certainly I do. Speaking of old and young, this brought up a conversation since that came up. I'll just quickly riff into this because I think it's interesting, you know, Kelsey Hightower during that innovation panel talked about how to class the developers and people want to just do, you know, applications. Someone to get under the hood, up and down the stack. I was riffing with John Chrysler around kind of the new generation, the kids coming in, the young guns, you know, they have all this goodness at their disposal. They didn't have to load Linux on a desktop and rack and stack servers, all that good stuff. So it's so much more capable today. And so this speaks to the modern error and the expansion overall of open source and the expansion of the people involved. New expectations and new experiences are required. So as a product person, how do you think about that? Because, you know, you don't want to just build for the old, but you got to build for the new as well as the experience changes and expectations are different. What's your thoughts around that? Yeah, I mean, this, I think about sort of my start in this industry as a really good answer to that. I mean, I remember as a kid, I think I asked for a computer for every birthday and Christmas from when I was six until I got one given to me by a friend's parents in 1994 on my way off to boarding school. And, you know, so it took that long just for me to get a computer into my hands. And then when I was in school, there wasn't any real sort of computer science or coding courses until my senior year. And then I had to go to an engineering school at Rensselaer to sort of get that experience at the time. I mean, just to even get into this industry and learn how to code was just, I mean, so many things had to go my way, right? And then Microsoft hired me out of college, another thing that sort of fell my way, right? So like this work that we're doing is just so important because I had a lot of, I worked hard, but I had a lot of luck, but not everybody's going to have some of that, right? Have that luck. How can we make it just as easy as possible for folks to get started wherever you are? If you have a family and you're working another full-time job, can you spend a few hours at night learning Docker? We can help you with that. Download Docker desktop, we have tutorials, we have great docs, we have great captains who teach courses, right? So everything we're doing is sort of in service of that vision and that democratization of getting into the ideas. And I love what Kelsey said in terms of, let's stop talking about the tech and let's stop talking about what folks can do with the tech. And that's very, very poignant. So we're really working on, like we'll take care of all the complexity behind the scenes and all of the VMs and the launching of containers and the net, like we'll try to help take care of all that complexity behind the curtain so that you can just focus on getting your idea built as a developer. Yeah, and you mentioned Kelsey again. He had a great story about his daughter and serverless. And I was joking on Twitter that his daughter convinced him that serverless is great. Of course, we know that Kelsey already loves serverless. So, but he's pointing out this developer dopamine. He didn't say it, that's Sean's word, but that's really what his daughter wanted to do was show her friends a website that she built, not get into, hey, look, I just did a Kubernetes cluster. I mean, it's not like, so I mean, but pick your swim lane, right? This is what it's all about now. Yeah, I hope my son never has to understand what a service mesh is or a proxy, right? I just hope he just learns how to learn the language and just learns how to bring an idea to life and all the rest of it is just behind the curtain. When he said I had a parenting moment, I thought he was going to say something like, oh, my kid did say no. I didn't describe whether it's a low level data structure or just use serverless. Shifting gears on the product roadmap for Docker. Can you share how folks can learn about it and can you give some commentary on what you're thinking right now? I know you guys put on GitHub, is there a link available? Absolutely, very simple. GitHub.com slash Docker slash roadmap. We tried to be very, very poignant about how we named that so it was as easy as possible. We launched it a few months ago. It was a first in terms of Docker publicly sharing its roadmap and what we're thinking and what we're working on. And you'll find very clear instructions of how to post issues and get started, what our code of conduct is, and then you can just get started and we even have a template for you to get started and submit an issue and talk to us about it. And internally, my team and many of our engineers as well, we triage what we see changing coming into the public roadmap two to three times a week. So for a half an hour to 45 minutes at a time and then we're on slack batting around ideas that are coming in and saying how we can improve those. So for everyone out there, we really do pay attention to this very frequently and we iterate on in the image vulnerability scannings one of those great examples. You can see some other things that we're working on up there. So I will say this though, there has been some continual ask for our Lennox version of Docker desktop. So I will commit that if we get 500 upvotes on that, that we will triage and figure out how to get that done over a period of time. Okay, you heard it upvote 500 upvotes triage and get that and is there a shipping date on that if they get the 500 votes? No, no, no, I can't get to a shipping date yet but it's on the public roadmap. So you'll know when we're working on it and when we're getting there. I want before I get into your session you had with the captain which is a very geeky session getting under the hood more on the business side. The tailwind obviously for Docker is the microservices trend. What containers has enabled is just going to continue to get more awesome and complex but also a lot of value and agility and all the things you guys are talking about. So that obviously is going to be a tailwind for you but as you guys look at that piece of it, specifically the business value, how is Docker positioned? Because a lot of the use cases are no one really starts out microservices from a clean sheet of paper. Either we heard some talks here at DockerCon where the financial services company said, hey, it's simple stack and then it became feature creep which became a monolith. And then they had to move that technical debt into a much more polyglot system where you have multiple tools and there's a lot of things going on. That seems to be the trend that also speaks to the legacy environment that most enterprises have. Could you share your view on how Docker fits into those worlds because you're either coming from a simple stack that more often got successful and you're going to go to microservices or you have legacy, then you want to decouple and make it highly cohesive. So your thoughts. So the simple answer is Docker can help on both ends. Right, so you know, I think as these new technologies sort of gain momentum and get talked about a bunch and sort of get rapid adoption and rapid hype, then there almost can seem to be this wall that builds up where people start to think, well, maybe my thing isn't modern enough or maybe my team's not modern enough or maybe I'm not modern enough to use this. So like I'm just, there's too much of a hurdle to get over. And we don't see that at all. There's always a way to get started even thinking about the other thing. And I'd say, you know, one, we can help let us know, ping us, we'll be happy to chat with you, but start small, right? You know, if you're in a large enterprise and you have a long legacy stack and a bunch of legacy apps, think about the smallest thing that you can start with and you can begin to break off of that and as a proof of concept, even by just downloading Docker desktop and visual studio code and just getting started with breaking off a small piece, right, and see it improve the model. And I think that's where Docker can be really helpful in introducing you to this paradigm and pattern shift of containers and containerized packaging and microservices and production run. And certainly any company coming out of this post pandemic is going to need to have a growth strategy. That's going to be based on apps. That's going to be based on the projects that they're currently working, double down on those and kind of sunset the ones that are or fix the legacy, seems to be a major tail end. The second bit is when you're like, you're going to also have to, as a company, you're going to also have to start something new or many new things to innovate for your customers and keep up with the times and the way of technology. So start to think about how you can ensure that the new things that you're doing are starting off in a containerized way using Docker to help you get there, right? If the legacy pieces may not be able to move as quickly or there's more required there, just think about the new things you're going to do and start new in that respect. Well, let's bring some customer scenarios to the table. Pretend I'm a customer, we're talking. Hey, Jesse, you looking good? Hey, I love Docker. I love the polyglot, blah, blah, blah. Hey, you know what? And I want to get your response to this. And I say DevOps won't work here where we are. It's just not a good fit. What do you say to it when you hear things like that? So see my previous comment about the wall that builds up, right? So the answer is, and I remember hearing this, by the way, about Agile years ago when Agile development and Agile processes began to come in and take hold and take over for sort of waterfall processes, right? What I hear customers really saying is, man, this is really hard. This is super hard. I don't know where to start. It's very hard. How can you help me figure out where to start? And that is one of the things that we're very, very, very clearly working on, right? So first off, our docs team who do great work just made an unbelievable update to the Docker documentation homepage, docs.docker.com. Before you were sort of met with a wall of text and a long left navigation, that if you didn't know what you were doing, how would you know where to go? Now you can go there and there's six very clear paths for you to follow. Do you want to get started? Are you looking for a product manual, et cetera? So if you're just looking for where to get started, just click on that. That'll give you a great start. When you download Docker desktop, there's now an onboarding tutorial that will walk you through getting your first application started. So there are ways for you to help and get started. And then we have a great group of Docker captains, Brett Fisher, many others who are also instructors. We can absolutely put you in touch with them for some online coursework that they deliver as well. So there's many resources available to you. Let us help you just get over the hump of getting started. Yeah, and Jenny and on the community side and Peter McKee, we're talking about some libraries are coming out and educational stuff's coming around the corner as well. So we'll keep an eye out for that. Question for you, a personal question. Can you share a proud DevOps Docker moment that you could share with the audience? Oh wow, so many to go through. So I think a few things come to mind over the past few weeks. So for everyone that hasn't know, we launched some exciting new pricing plans last week for Docker. So you can now get quite a bit of value for $7 a month in our pro plan. But the amount of work that the team had to do to get there was just an incredible thing. And just watching how the team operated and how the team got there and just how they were turning on a dime with decisions that were being made. And I'm seeing the same thing through some of our teams that are building the image vulnerability scanning feature. You know, I won't quote the number but there's a very small number of people working on that feature that are creating an incredible thing for customers. So it's just how we think every day because we know, we're actually almost trying to productize how we work, right? And bring that to the customer. Awesome. And your take on DockerCon virtual obviously we're all in this situation. The content's been rich on the site. You were just on the captain's program earlier in the day. Dr. Brett's captain, like a marathon session. Did they grill you hard or what was your experience on the captain's feed? So I love the captain's feed. We did a run of that for the Docker birthday a few months ago with my co-worker Justin Cormack. So yes, there are two Justin's that work at Docker. I got the internal Justin slack handle. He got the external, the community slack Justin handle. So we split the goods there. But you know, lots of questions about how to get started. I mean, I think there was one really good question there. Someone was asking for advice on just how to get started as someone who wants to be a new engineer or get into coding. And I think we're seeing a lot of this. I even have a good friend whose wife was a very successful, still is a very successful person in the marketing field and is learning how to code and wants to do a career switch, right? So it's really exciting. DockerCon is virtual. We heard Kelsey. Hi, Tower. We heard James Governor talk about events that can be more about group conventions getting together where they're small, medium or large. What's your take on DockerCon virtual or in general, what makes a great conference these days? Because we'll soon get back to the physical space. But I think the genes out of the bottle that just digital space has no boundaries. It's limitless in creativity. We just scratch on the surface. What makes a great event in your mind? I think so. And I go back to thinking, you know, I've probably flown, I've probably flown 600,000 miles in the past three years. Right? You know, lots of time away from my family, lots of time away from my son. And now that we, you know, we're all in this situation together in terms of being sheltered in place in the global pandemic. And, you know, we're executing an event that has 10 times more participation from attendees than we had in our in-person event. And I sat back in my chair this morning and I was thinking, did I really need to fly that 600,000 miles in the past three years? Like that's, you know, I think James Governor brought it up earlier today. I just, I really think the world has changed under, you know, underneath us. It's just going to be really hard to, you know, this will all be over eventually, you know, hopefully, you know, hopefully we get to a vaccine really soon. And then, you know, folks will start to feel like worlds a little bit more back to quote unquote normal. But man, I'm going to really have to ask myself, like, do I really need to get on this airplane and fly wherever it is? Like, why can't I just, you know, do it from my home office and, you know, have, you know, eat my son breakfast and take him to school and then see him in the evening. Plus second, like I mentioned before, in terms of access, like no in-person event will be able to compete ever with the type of access that this type of a platform provides. There just aren't like, you know, fairly or not unfairly. There just people, just lots of people just cannot travel to certain places for lots of different reasons. Monetary probably being primary. And it's not their job to figure out how to get to the thing. It's our job to figure out how to get the tech and the access and the learning to them, right? Yeah. So I'm super committed to that. And I'll be asking the question continually. And I think my internal colleagues will probably laughing now because I've been beating the drum of like, why do we ever have to do anything in person anymore? Like let's expand the access. Yeah, expand the access. And what's great too is the CEO was in multiple chat streams. So you could literally, it's almost beam in there like Star Trek. And just you can be more places that doesn't require that spatial limitations. And I think face-to-face will be good intimate, you know, more party-like environment, more bonding or where social face-to-face is more impactful. We do have to figure out how to have the attendee party virtually. So, you know, we have to figure out how to get some great electronic or, you know, band or something, you know, to play a virtual show and like what the ship everybody a beverage. I don't know. Well, we'll co-create with Docker the cube pub and have beer for everybody if they have some point. Justin, great insight. Thank you for coming on and sharing the roadmap, update on the product and your insights into the tech as well as events. Appreciate it. Thank you. Absolutely, thank you so much and thank everyone for attending. Congratulations on all the work on the product. Docker, go on to the next level. Microservices is a tailwind, but it's about productivity simplicity. Justin, the product, head of the product for Docker VP product on here in the cube. DockerCon 2020, I'm John Furrier. Stay with us for more continuous coverage on the cube track we're on now. We're streaming live. These sessions are immediately on demand. Check out the calendar. It's 43 sessions submitted by the community. Jump in. They're their own container of content. Get in there pun intended and chat and meet people and learn. Thanks for watching. Stay with us for more after this break.