 I think the first question, and I would like to ask would be, how did you meet LBJ, and what was your experience with LBJ? Of course, everyone in Texas knew that Lyndon Johnson was a premier political figure in Texas, but when I was in the Texas State Senate, I served in the Senate from January of 1967 until 1972 when I went to the Congress. While I was a member of the Texas Senate, Lyndon Johnson was president of this country, and I received a telegram at my home in Houston from Lyndon Johnson, and the telegram was to the effect we were having a meeting at the White House or having several people to discuss the future of a bill which was pending in the Congress. This bill was regarding changes in housing legislation to infuse that legislation with a civil rights component, and this telegram asked if I would meet at the White House to discuss this legislation, and it concluded present this telegram at the some gate of the White House. Well, I was, of course, quite startled to receive a telegram from the President of the United States asking that I come to Washington to talk about anything, and I said, well, I guess I will go, and I took the telegram when I was in Houston when I received the telegram, came back to Austin for the Senate and showed it to my colleagues in the Senate. I said, you see, I've got an invitation to go to Washington, and they were kind of excited about just the prospect. Now, at the time John Connolly was Governor of Texas, and I hadn't had very good relations with Mr. Connolly, but here was this invitation to the White House, so I went, and I, at that time, you would fly to Washington, to Dollar's Airport, and then you would take a limousine, which is really a bus, to 12th and K. Streets at the Albert Pick Motel, a hotel, and then you take a taxi to where you wanted to go. So, I flew to Washington, I got the bus to the Albert Pick, I took my bag, or I didn't have, I wasn't staying overnight, so I didn't have much luggage, and I put whatever I had in a locker at the Albert Pick transfer point, got a taxi, and went to the White House, presented my telegram, and got in just like magic, and went up to what I now know was the cabinet room, and there were other people assembled, people who were active in the civil rights movement, and we sat and waited around the table for the President and the Vice President, Hubert Humphrey, to arrive. Well, as I sat there, really at the far end of the table, I still said to myself, now Lyndon Johnson probably doesn't know who I am or what I'm about, and I probably just, my name just probably just slipped in somehow and got into there. So the President came in, everybody stood up, he sat down, we all sat down, and we start to discuss this legislation, fair housing legislation, and the conversation was going around the table, and the President would call on first one person for a reaction, and another person for a reaction, and then he stopped and he looked at my end of the table, he said, Barbara, what do you think? Well, I just, in the first place, I'm telling you, I didn't know the President knew me, and here he's looking down here saying, Barbara, and then saying, what do you think? So that was my first exchange with Lyndon Johnson. I'm startled, I got myself organized, of course, not so that I wouldn't stammer, since it is not my habit to stammer when talking, and I gave a response, and then this conversation said, that was my first contact, personally, with Lyndon Johnson, and there were others after that, but in terms of, I would have to consider that our first meeting. And after leaving Washington, there was a story in the newspaper, the Evans Novak column, and in that column they mentioned my visit to the White House, and stated that I had impressed the persons who were at the meeting, including the President, more than some of the persons who were familiar figures in the civil rights movement. Now, when you see that kind of indication in a national column, you know that it's a plant, and that was a White House plant, so I would say that that was an indirect encounter with Lyndon Johnson. What impression did you have of Lyndon Johnson before you met him personally? Did you ever, you know, as he became President and you were in Houston in the Texas Legislature, did you have any impression of what kind of man he was after he was appointed, or became President with the assassination? Well, you've got to understand this. I worked very hard for the election of the Kennedy Johnson ticket in 1960 in Houston, and I was very enamored with John Kennedy. And when he was assassinated, I was devastated by that. And it took me a while to really focus on Lyndon Johnson, the President. But once I got over my devastation and realized that this is a man who is large enough to care about all people and attended to that, I then started to feel warmly towards Lyndon Johnson. And that is the feeling which grew in me as he performed during his presidency. Is that because of some of the legislation that he proposed as a President and became President? Well, you could say that a man who could exercise power on behalf of people with the aplomb and finesse which Lyndon Johnson could, that got my attention. And certainly, I was impressed being now a fledgling politician myself. I was certainly impressed with how this man could get things done for people. And that continued to grow in terms of impression. The positive impression that you have of Johnson, as personally, was that feeling in the Texas Legislature about Johnson? Did you notice anybody? Was there a groundswell for respect to Johnson? We all loved Lyndon Johnson. As the Texas State Senate, we didn't know him very well. Most of us did not have one-to-one encounters or contact with him, but he was certainly well respected and very highly regarded by my colleagues in the Texas Senate. And he was our number one Texan at all times. That was quite clear. In the meeting that you had in Washington when you attended, I noticed in the book that you had the meeting and there were quite a few people there in your biography. Who were some of the other leaders who were present? I remember Dorothy Hite, the president of the National Council of Negro Women. There was Urban League and NAACP representation there. It seems like, I'm not sure Whitney Young was there, but there were people that I had seen in the Civil Rights Movement in the past. In terms of their names, I guess I remember Dorothy Hite's name because I remember the name of a woman who was there. Were you two the only women there? I don't recall. Was it a pretty large group? I'd say it was, say, 20 people, 15, 20 people. What you discussed in that meeting, did it become as you wanted to become of the House? It became law, yes. It did indeed. That must have been the Fair Housing Act of around 1968. I noticed in your efforts to elect the Texas House of Senate where you ran for the House, I think, first. I ran for the House two times and was defeated two times. Do you think the legislation passed under Johnson's administration had an effect on the redistricting of Houston to the effect that it did provide you the opportunity to run in a single member district? That was the action of the courts. The courts mandated redistricting of the Texas Senate and that's what was possible, made getting a Senate seat possible for me, Baker v. Kerr, the redistricting decision. Which would be a judicial battle. That's correct. That is correct. I know when you also, you had a fundraiser or something in Houston as a picture of you and Lyndon Johnson embracing on that. I think he said if you ever needed him to come to UAE he would come. That is true. So the friendship from the point that you went to Washington for that meeting grew from that? Well it certainly did grow from that. The President Johnson asked me on another occasion President Johnson called my house and asked me to serve on a presidential commission. He was establishing and did set up a commission on income maintenance programs and he called my house one day which upset my mother to know in. I mean upset her in a good way. She just couldn't quite handle the President of the United States being on the telephone at her house and when I walked in from someplace and she said almost breathlessly the ranch is calling. I said the ranch is calling. She said the President is calling from the ranch and so I got on the phone and I said hello Mr. President and that is when President Johnson asked if I would serve on the income maintenance commission and he told me who else would be on it and it was I thought a worthy thing to do and so I did serve on that commission and that was a second conversation that I had with the President when he did establish that commission. Now our work product was it's almost now an embarrassment. We were so low in the figure which we set out for the minimum income necessary to bring families out of poverty which I think was four thousand dollars or and but we did we did do that and it was the idea which was so important that the President was stating and setting out for us that Wilbur Cohen was a member of that commission and what we were what we were doing was laying the groundwork for a minimum income guarantee for poor people so that people would no longer be poor so we did do that and that was as I said an occasion of conversation with the President. The President was invited to Houston for a fundraiser not a fundraiser well I think we were retiring a debt for Senator Ralph Yarbrough because Senator Ralph Yarbrough always had a debt and the President came to Houston to speak at a function to retire that debt and there was great discussion I was involved in the planning of this dinner and there was great discussion of who will introduce Lyndon Johnson and when the President was heard from he said I want Barbara Jordan to introduce me and that's what I did and that was the occasion when after that after that dinner Lyndon Johnson held my hand in both of his as only he could do and said if ever you need anything from me money marbles a chalk I'll never forget it just call so when I decided to run for the Congress I said well I'm going to call it in I'm going to call it in because money is needed at this time and that's when I called the President who had re-left office at that time and told him about my plans to run for Congress and asked if he would come for a fundraiser and he said yes and as I knew he would because he wouldn't have said that if he hadn't been it he would he didn't have a habit of just promising people things like that and that was a strong statement and so he did come to Houston to this fundraiser which we had at the Rice Hotel when I was raising money for my race for Congress and we had a hotel ballroom filled with people and when the we kept it quiet that the president was coming but when the word got out that he would be there the president's buddies thought they'd better Annie up and they did yes it was a fine dinner so I was standing there at the door when the president came in and he gave me that big bear hug and that's the picture that you see no I did not I did have an occasion to go to the ranch while the president was still alive my sorority Delta Sigma Theta sorority had its national convention meeting in Houston and we asked the delegates from all over the country what would you most like to do when you come to Texas and they said we would like to go to the LBJ ranch well the sorority then turned to me and said well you'll have to pull it off and so I again called and asked president if the Delta Sigma Theta sorority could come to the ranch for a visit and of course he said yes so we all piled and got on an airplane and we came to Austin and then we got a bus from the Austin Airport to the ranch and Lyndon Johnson personally took those 30 or 40 women around the ranch house and that was an experience that they'll never forget none of us will ever forget it but he took us into the nooks and crannies of his house on the ranch and I am sure that Lady Bird would not have approved but he took us into his restroom and this is where I shave you see but even the women just loved it and we all just loved it and you know he was a he just was a real charmer like that I never saw him I never met him I did come here when they had the symposium before he passed yes the civil rights symposium that pictures of like you too yes and I notice he's yeah that you're that briefcase is hiding a picture I have which I took with him at that symposium so he was very accessible me for you could get to him pretty as accessible as a president could be I never had any difficulty getting through to Lyndon Johnson I can't say that about every public figure that I've tried to contact but I can't say that about Lyndon Johnson I think it comes across really well with a number of people I've had chance to meet who had chance to meet him yes then those Lady Bird she's it is as accessible as nice oh she is she is the most gracious lady and I'm I just I mean this very sincerely I see Lady Bird periodically now we serve on the Texas Commerce bank shares board together and she is very gracious she is very accessible and she is willing to be of whatever assistance she can be she remains a very strong supporter of this school the LBJ school and we are the better for it in the in the line of civil rights what would be your experience with the I know as I make I recall the struggle I know you had some you met someone the same resistance I met when things begin to change I guess in the 60s 64 after Johnson became president or whatever when you went to Congress did you did you have a mission in mind of trying to deal with civil rights I know you were pointed to the apple committee judiciary judiciary committee but did you have any other did you whether that's your goal to work in civil rights or to just go and try to serve people from your district my goal was to go to Congress and be a good member of Congress and yes to serve the people of my district but I did not see myself as representing particularly nor specifically the interests of black people but I knew that whatever I did that was representative of the interests of black people you don't have to focus on that specifically nor strikeedly you just have to be there and when you are there black people are represented you agree with that I agree 100% I like that I'm not going to say very much but I like that did you find operation operating in the Texas legislative legislation legislation I know it's different but how was it different from the Texas and the National Congress if I could have stayed in the Texas Senate and been assured that whenever I got ready to go to Congress I could go I would have stayed in the Senate and not run for Congress when I did but it was redistricting the 1970 census redistricting that made it look like a time that I could go to Congress and I knew that if I didn't go then I would have to wait a long time because we we keep people in office in Texas a long time so I in terms of contrast I enjoyed being in the Senate once I cut through the male Ness of the Texas State Senate and their view that I was somehow going to be a disruptive force rather than a helping force when I cut through that and formed friendships I mean genuine friendships some last now with the members of the Texas Senate that was a very pleasant experience for me we didn't agree politically on practically anything there were there 31 members of the Texas Senate and there are 11 who were viewed as the quote liberals in a Texas mode but I got along with them and I liked them and they were real folk and you knew where they were you knew where they stood you didn't have to guess about that then you go to Washington that atmosphere is so rarified and large that it becomes it becomes very difficult to really get down to the core the heart of a person where they really are the reality of a person so if I were to draw a comparison in contrast I would say that the members of the Texas Senate with whom I had encounters were genuine humane and real and loyal and I would say that the members I encountered in the Congress of the United States had more of a tendency to posture and engage in rhetoric and spin a web or a cocoon around them so you never knew which face you had on any given day it was not easy to get through to the heart and core and soul that I am talking about I could experience quite easily with my fellow senators now Washington is a different it's a different mix there are 31 senators there were 435 that's quite that's quite a difference and so it is that difference which I suppose accounts the difference in size which accounts for the unreality of some of it now of course in Washington I formed some close friendships but not as many as I did as a member of a small body the Texas Senate did in the National Congress with a state members of Texas in the House for instance where they did a formal coalition or some kind of very cohesive very cohesive we used to have lunch together each Wednesday that's a tradition which was started under Sam Rabin and we would have lunch each Wednesday in what we what they call the speakers dining room and Sam Rabin started and it still goes on it would on as long as I was there and it goes on now now before I got there a woman had never attended a Texas luncheon Texas Congressional luncheon but when I got there we didn't we didn't have to pass any resolution they just knew that I would be there and so I was there a number of barriers and all you know in your whole life and I noticed that no one you don't you know project those out is as the first to this and someone else picks that up and I think based on my read a lot of this company of grandfather it Johnny Pat yes that is correct big to how you think what his philosophy was how it affected you too because it seemed like you went to the first of the you've kind of told you to be independent you want to say anything about how that has stood you in this day to achieve some things well the the good thing about the lesson of independence and being one's own person which I got from my grandfather the good thing about that is I never had to apologize for whatever I was doing I I was not I was not self-effacing now some people may say that that's bad but I always figured that if he said that I was to be my own person that I could just go out there and be it which I did do and so I didn't I didn't look back and I didn't look around for excuses for non achievement I just decided that what one wants to do one proceeds do it that can be a that can be a dangerous kind of an attitude to have because I find myself wanting to lay that on everybody else in the world I want to say that now those be those that teenager who can't find a job and say he's so down and out I want to look at him and say look you know you're your own person just get out there and do it that doesn't work for everybody and that's I have to realize that and I have to remind myself that it worked for me but it does not work for everybody how would you how would you I mean how you would you relate to experiences at Texas Southern not to agree on experiences but the Texas Southern with with Boston oh Texas Southern gave me a a general good basic I almost said remedial education Texas Southern gave me a fairly good hand on the basics reading and writing and I didn't do much thinking that was what was lacking that's what was missing so when I got to Boston I didn't have any trouble reading and writing but I did have trouble thinking and I would say that law school in particular is a good vehicle for encouraging thought and I just I don't know why I did not have much of an experience with that at Texas Southern except that I didn't have to do much thinking I was I was doing all right I could always make A's and that's what counted it to do that so it didn't make any difference whether I did any thinking I think you think express at Boston and so he said that law give you a lot of critical ability to do a lot more quickly well it does indeed it does indeed I recommend the legal education for organizing one's mind it's good at that I think you've heard just before don't say you know I haven't said it to I think it's you really made every black person and I think majority of Americans proud when we served on this area on the Watergate I wonderful I know the state that the night that you made your remarks I think that the reading wasn't been posted I think you would have made it with the Superbowl well I can only tell you this thank you for the compliment but I can tell you this that wherever I travel no one has forgotten that speech I think you're correct and I know this is not a right now you'll think you're what you did on that was just outstanding I think the people were able to see to cut through all the malaise and other stuff reference to what Nixon may have to get to what the law says what we hear about you know about to do how did you after that happened did that where you I know you were bombarded by people to you to come and do three different things still am personally how did you feel about well I felt that I was taking part I was participating in a very important historical event and I knew that I had to if I can't get into the vernacular I had to have my stuff together and that I would not I had there were you know I wasn't the only black person on the Judiciary Committee Charlie Rangel was on but at the time when we started the impeachment proceedings Charlie would say well I know he's guilty I'm ready to vote impeachment I said you can't can't do it that way we've got to get through the evidence he's don't need the evidence I said oh yeah we yeah we've got to get the evidence and make sure and so that's why I patiently went through the evidence until I was clear in my own mind that that was the thing which had to be done and it was the attorney John Hill was the attorney general of Texas at the time and John Hill said to me one day he said I told people before you came on television to give your statement about Richard Nixon's Nixon I said Barbara will have her statement based in fact and law if she has to go back to Moses so so I told it that's absolutely right and so that's I I no one questioned that it was the right thing to do now the letters I got were overwhelming I'd say I got maybe a dozen letters from people who didn't agree with me but you contrast that to the hundreds upon hundreds of dead that that did it for me well some people try people get carried away now I don't know how much long many question more questions you have but I really need to conclude your political aspirations I know you have any any more possible about your Senate if it was possible no I've done that now I don't need to to re to rerun my life I need to just move on from this point and and that's what I'm doing is moving on from this point I'm I'm enjoying teaching I'm I'm developing into a pretty good professor and if I stick around here long enough I'm going to be a very good one and that's what I want to I won't thank you funny on behalf of the LBJ or history collection