 this morning on squaring the circle on the road towards a digital circular economy. So today we are going to discuss together what are actually the roles of digitalization in a circular economy and when I started researching on this concept, I tried to find a good definition of what a circular economy actually is and I found that there are many many definitions out there from many different actors focusing on different aspects So but so that we are all on one page what we talk about today I would like to start by just giving you one example of a definition So basically the circular economy probably this is not news to you It's thought to closing loops in production and consumption and the main goal there is to reduce waste but also to reduce the use of resources and the natural environment so There is one definition that I would just read to you from the EU That you can find on their website and that is the circular economy is a model of production and consumption Which involves sharing leasing reusing repairing refurbishing and recycling existing materials and products as long as possible in this way the life cycle of products is extended in practice It implies reducing waste to a minimum They further declare that this is a departure from the traditional linear Economic model, which is based on a take make consume throw away pattern. So here again, you see this Closing the loop logic So a number of scientists policy makers and industries have been arguing that Digitalization is also a key component for making the circular economy work and The idea here is that you use different ICT technologies They use big data in order to close loops in our economic system Further examples for this are for example having more modular and repairable design introducing 3d printing and also tracking consumer goods for example with the digital product pass So this gives you a Overview maybe what we are going to talk about today Yeah, so the basic idea of the digital circular economy is to make digitalization work for sustainability Today we want to find out can this really be attained and how can we have a really a circular economy that uses digital tools really to keep our consumption within planetary boundaries and also to Allow a good life for all of us So now I would like to welcome our guests here and I would like each one of you to have a little Statement each one gets like five to ten minutes to show their views on the topic and we start by Johanna Johanna welcome Johanna is a senior advisor for resource policy at the NGO German watch here in Berlin Since 2014 she works on circular economy and sustainably Mineral supply chains and has been asked several times for advice in as experts as an expert in hearings And is part of the research commission of the German environmental agency, sorry, I'm reading that out to They did right She's also co-founder and chairwoman of the organization Rundertisch Reparatur or round table of repair Johanna Why is the digital circular economy approach an attempt of squaring the circle? What do you think? Do you think are the problems? Can you hear me that right? Yeah Well, I think a circle economy is crucial. So we really can it's not Yeah, now it is Okay. Yeah, circular economy is a very crucial concept to actually reduce our resource consumption and our snot on The circular economy is a very crucial concept to actually try to reduce our raw materials consumption and it aims at Keeping the raw materials we have in smartphones and whatever as long as possible within the circle the use circle and to reuse it and by this we can reduce the need for primary resources and That's crucial because we know due to a lot of different Yeah movements at the moment and dynamics at the moment they The demand for raw materials is increasing immensely and at the same time We know that the impact of raw materials extraction is Yeah, immense and we have Even if we would say that maybe the raw material as such is not scarce We know that at many places where there is the extraction of raw materials. There's a huge scarcity of access to water and land and We know also that they all within the rocks is getting less and less concentrated. So for every Raw materials we extract we need to get cloning deeper and deeper dig deeper and deeper with more mining waste being thrown on fields of farmers with more water having to be consumed and with more Human rights abuses and already know the raw materials and the extractive sectors one of the sectors Overroll with the most human rights abuses for example, I just came a came back from a field trip to Latin America and Chile and where there's a lot of copper extraction people don't have access to Yeah, natural water Resources anymore at many places of extraction and in Peru people have heavy metals in their bloods of leading to cancer and miscarriages and even for example in Peru, I think it's a quite strong example to see that people have been protesting and demonstrating for the rights to keep their livelihoods and Instead of finding a solution for it often the protests are only Shot down and the laws have been changed in a way So it's possible to go with arms against the process and the people shoot and the police doesn't even Yeah, get any penalties for it, which was called as the license to kill Because the problems there's already a limit and people say we don't want any more extraction and doesn't bring the development we want to us and At the same time Yeah, so we really need to reduce our raw materials extraction and this is by by this We really need to see we have to think circular economy really holistically for example in Germany at the moment most legislative processes See circle a circular economy very limited They only look at the recycling part at the mace management part But don't the most legislative proposals don't think circular economy really holistically Thinking of how can we reduce the goods we use how can we repair more? How we can we use more how can we already design a product in a way that we can use them longer time And then only if it doesn't work any In any other many anymore we go towards the recycling and I think digitalization actually has a big potential to increase and to yeah, it could Facilitate circular economy me it could by providing by being able to track materials in supply chains in a easier way It could facilitate sharing with them models for example the sharing economy But at the same time we see that it's needs a lot so it actually happens and to have positive impact and for example if you look at sharing models a lot of and the sharing economy is seen as one Solution which could actually help us to use less room raw materials and to use them more efficiency Efficiently, but we see there's a huge risk risk for rebound effects and to really have sharing models Fulfilling the goal to also Yeah, facilitate circular economy economy The sharing model has to thought Really think circular economy the whole lifespan of the product until all all from the production until the use phase until they after use phase in a circular Circular way and that's often not done and also many of the sharing models Actually benefit from a data economy that benefit from using and getting more data And this has the impact that they often are rather instead of creating stable business models, which would be important to to have to have a sharing economy that actually goes towards long-lasting products and That are not only used for some time and then Taken out of this sharing model again And to really look that be in in overall We use less products We would need that yeah and stable system at the end the data economy, which often is often the driving Driving force behind the sharing models goes often rather for data and for more users instead of trying to have less People using having a more intensive More intensive use of the products So we really have to look in carefully into this mode models to see that they really can Facilitate and promote that the reduction of raw materials and this also implies for example service Yeah, that repair is Involved remanufacturing is involved in all this and that not products are used in a sharing model And then after some time they're just going to secondary market or taken out again And then we haven't won anything so we have to look carefully At the models how they're built and at the same time we also have software as one Issue that is essential to digitalization and which could be used in a very positive way but it also in Yeah Includes a lot of risks for example often at the moment software is used for example in smartphones to block certain parts To use software so they can't get repaired by everybody so you can't repair certain You can't take certain you can't repair your phone on your own anymore because it's blocked by software So it's a rather instead of being used to use the products longer. It's It's used always with the argument of security. It's used to inhabit repair and it Facilitates software facilitates the monopolization of repair by producers and we know that it's crucial That is not only the producers who repair For the products because we know in the long run it's them The business models are like that that they mostly want to bring new products on the market instead of having Really benefiting repair and we need competition on the repair market and if only in the afterwards only they Produce a sim that selves can repair in the long run repair can disappear Yes, so we have and also what we all see software updates are crucial and yes And otherwise often products can't be used anymore. So software plays an important role and has to be Regulated in a way that we can actually benefit from it and One other issue within digital is a digitalization is that Electronics are just is just spread out everywhere. There's RF. They are RFID techs plugged into Clothes into whatever everything they can become smart to be tracked to be controlled But by that we have little part little pieces of raw materials everywhere in close with which then afterwards are just dispersed and we can't Gain them put them into risk onto the yeah, we gain them again for a circular economy They're just lot lost out of the circle and even already now We know that from smartphones for example only 30% of the smartphones are collected and then even in a very high technical recycling not even half of the Materials and metals that are in a smartphone that currently are actually recycled and regained for the cycle So already know already in smartphones, which is quite a big junk already. Well, there's a lot of small parts in there, but Already there, we know that the regaining of materials is very difficult and it will become more difficult if you have Electronics spread out everywhere Yeah, so in general, we know we see that there is quite some challenges to make the circular economy Being a driver within a digitalization or digitalization being a driver for circular economy And for that we really have to look closely At the risk and the potentials and have to look for regular regulatory frame and that means for example, we have to look at market concentration We have to look at data economy and we have to design the products in a way that we can use them a long time And we really have to make sure that the digitization doesn't lead to more market Put concentration and for example a monopole of from producers on the products and the repair and the whole use of the life of the product within the life cycle and by that we can There's a huge risk that to be repair we lose the whole repair market Thanks a lot We're just having a little technical issues I think that's how it's supposed to be So thank you very much Hannah. You gave us a really nice introduction now as our second guest I would like to welcome Andrea Cardoso She's a professor in the business and economics faculty of the University of Magdalena Santa Marta in Colombia She did her PhD in environmental studies and Andreas research addresses the political ecology of the global coal chain Just transition and climate justice Andrea first of all, please tell us a little bit about your work and how you would say it relates to the circular economy debate And also we would be interested in what you think how the global south could actually profit from Digital circular economy or where maybe it doesn't profit so much Okay, I Hope that you will listen to me. I think yes So first of all, thank you for having me here. Thank you to all the volunteers That have been working these days so hard in this such a big Event conference I have been in many of the partners I have learned a lot about digitalization Yeah, I'm really happy to join you in the discussion And also I really appreciate that the Organizates organization brings the diversity diversified points of view of digitalization So as you said My recess focus on a study the cold chain between Colombia and Germany What I I focus on a study is To trace the cold because Colombia and my country is the fifth World largest coal exporter in the world Many of the coal comes from comes to to Germany and to Europe and in every step of the coal change deep this process and Let behind a lot of environmental and social impacts that we call it social environmental Liabilities, and we need to take into account these liabilities in the circular economy So my work is dedicated as a professor. I dedicated to empower young students To research and work in just transition in the Caribbean region of Colombia where the coal is extracted Many of my students come from The their families come from where the land has been impacted by a cold mining The land has been impacted through air soil and water pollution All the coal that is extracted in this region is for a sportation When a ton of coal of Colombia Is is exported to to Germany and as well to Europe this to produce energy for digitalization This ton of coal of these energy insults carries This air soil water Pollution that is producing in the lab in the land of my students families So we need to to to think the circular economy as a system perspective to look all the impacts in the whole Process of the sea the circular economy Then always the material and energy that requires for this digital circular economy Is is complementing I mean for this digital circular economy you need Row materials, but as well energy and we need to question with these raw materials as minerals and Energy where is is they come from? I wanted the impacts that they produce and when we extract this source of a material of energy and and because the the thermodynamics law and the entropy laws It takes a lot of energy and as well material to reuse in a circular economy And as well is supposed that the circular economy the digital circular economy confront renewable energy But we in a we are in a middle of the energy crisis Because the war between Russia and Ukraine and these crisis show us at least show to the world that Germany is not prepared for the for the renewable energy You are depending so much of gas and as well you are importing You are starting to to increase the importation of coal from from Colombia and this Digital a circular economy is fuel with this coal and this coal is leaving some so much impacts in the land where I come from So the idea of the circular economy, I think maybe Andra is going to talk about the challenges to how to decrease the use of coal and the use of material and Energy that fuel these Digital circular economy are going to stop that and maybe I will Later I will do more examples Thank you very much, Andrea. I think it's good to always remember that It's not only about resources, but the whole digital system is also very dependent on energy So now I'm quite curious. We our next guest is joining us as online. So That seems to work great Welcome. I'm with Nage I'm at Nage is working in the European Commission to director to general for communications Networks and sorry She's a policy officer in the field of green digital transformation and works among other things on the European digital product Passport as part of the proposed eco design for sustainable product regulation She also works with businesses of the European green you dream digital coalition towards methodologies to measure the net environmental impact of ICT solutions Um So I'm it. I think you brought a little presentation with you And we're all really curious to get to know more about the circular economy action plan and what you are working on at the moment Thanks a lot. I do hope you'll hear me fine As you already said and I work with did you connect from my background? I'm Yes Of where The advantage of digital to Go further into Carbon reductions or material reductions, etc. It for sure would be in the circular economy the first slide shows the European Green Deal that was issued as the programmatic policy program of the Thunder Lion Commission in December 2019 and You see it's a very broad Let's say it covers a lot of different areas from climate to justice to pollution to form to fork and One of which is mobilizing industry for a clean and circle economy So this is one of the big pillars driving forward the European Green Deal in total The next slide Shows you the circle economy action plan that will is let's say one more specific Activity under the European Green Deal. It was issued in March 2020 and you see three main pillars The green one says make sustainable products the norm in the EU So this is the overarching goal. It's about empowering consumers and public buyers but it's also about Making clear to producers what the role would be in production processes It has been chosen Areas now I go to the red one sectors where the Potential for circularity is highest and this is electronics and ICT it has already been touched upon batteries like vehicles, but also packaging plastics textiles construction and buildings because they use a lot of material but It's also once it's used it stays there for a long time food, water and nutrients and the overall Orientation is also to reduce waste to reduce waste exports and to boost market for secondary raw materials on the right-hand side You will see what let's say our elements to be looked at and it's really about making circular economy work for people planet and Entities on the ground the next slide shows you let's say the Overall understanding that it's when we talk about Circular economy. It's not only about The the greenhouse gases and material Reduction in The product itself it looks at the whole picture. So it's about fuels. It's about the natural impact It's about mining. It's about soil water Which is needed so it has already been said we need an impact decoupling and We need to look beyond the economic let's say benefits into ecological gains and Social equity Otherwise, we will never be able to make it The next slide shows you the package that was brought out in This March. It's called the sustainable products package, which is kind of the logic for the development of the The circular economy action plan It included a strategy for sustainable and circular textiles new rules to empower consumers for the green transition the support for circular business models and There are Let's say at 12 o'clock. You will see Complementary sexual rules for examples for Constructions and other categories batteries chemicals packaging. This is coming up in the middle You will see the eco design for sustainable product regulation, which is a Proposal of the Commission towards Council and Parliament they already starts discussing it on Making products that are sustainable the norm This Package includes as well Digital product passport and I will go into this for In a second what I would like to give you also a little bit more of insight is the new roles For empowering consumers in the green transition the aim of this package Which is also legal a proposal in form of a directive which would translate in German Rahmenrichtlinie Is to ensure consumers get adequate information on product durability and Reparability prior to purchase. So before you buy it, you will know what you're buying And it's about strengthening the consumers protection against unworthy or false environmental claims and premature Upsolescence this has already been touched upon It builds on to legislative Directives that are already out there consumers right directive and unfair Consumentive practice directives. So it's it's yeah, putting up to date other Things that will happen now It will come out with the with the autumn package is packaging waste review But also the substantiating green claims where companies are held to Substantiate means Explain and make more transparent when they say my product is green They will be compelled to use joint methods for example for the product environmental footprinting and Life-cycle analysis is so that labels not just everybody puts out the label Like randomly, but they they really they need to to be streamlined into a more comparable point of view There are also review of the industrial emissions directive, etc But what is really interesting that I would like to go into is The next slide which is about the designing sustainable products. It's Legislative proposal that really wants by 2050 to have all products sustainable and The basis is the widening of the equity sign directive, which for the moment when you're good, at least in Germany or also in other European countries you go to buy a fridge or washing machine. You will have the a a or B plus whatever labels given to it and This is let's say the running equity sign directive right now this will be enlarged and Has already been said the need for design criteria will be added the need for Material information will be added and so it goes much further Then the the old equity design directive which is still in place just to be clear this is still in place because the Negotiations of council and of parliament on the new proposal are ongoing It will take let's say roughly another year, maybe one and a half until the Entry of force and then plus the transposition period If you would please switch to the next slide, I will just guide you very briefly through the What is happening under the eco designs for sustainable products? This is Let's say a regulation that will aim for a level playing field of all products In in the EU so for Manufacturers in the EU, but it will also apply to all the Imports coming to the EU. So here you will see the eco design requirements That are listed on your right-hand durability or reliability or reusability because it already been said if We need want to use a product longer This is let's say the best way to ensure less product Less material and energy use because for a lot of products It's not use phase that makes the big difference. It's really the production part for ICTs It's something like 80% of the overall footprint of a of a device is within the Sourcing and the production part So if we are able to use something more in in time spans or upgraded or Refurbish it this would always be preferable to the let's say even So color the end of life in the sense of bringing it back to a material or energetic reuse in the sense of recycling You will also see performance requirements So what will be necessary to look? How does that the product need to work and then the other big pillar is the information requirements to make more visible? for example recycled content Possibility of remanufacturing and recycling so information on Repairability etc. But also if a recycler in the end they need to know what is in In what let's say formulation materials are in how can I possibly recover those materials? And So the end of life and waste phase should also be informed about For a couple of products there will be the obligation to set up digital product passports This is something that will still need A little bit of time in order to be developed to develop the system Of digital product passports What we have for the moment in the regulation is a framework for all this the first digital product passport is already decided on in the proposal for the batteries regulation and this will come into force beginning of first first 1st january 2026 the first um digital product passports For batteries would need to be installed and we are working with industry on this with stakeholders in several Big projects in order to collect the information What would be needed also go touching upon? Intellectual property rights security issues. How could that system work? Let's say technically because we want to have Decentralized system so no central database it will just be much too big and to also ensure that with the stepwise approach of including more and more products and Having them with digital product passports. This is interoperable because it's of no use if it's distinct systems and data from one or the other cannot be used I think this is close to the end of my presentation There is another slide on the benefits of the digital product passport. It's about tracking and tracing, but it's also about Knowing in the end for the market surveillance. What is where are my products? How do they look like? And in the end when it comes to overall view for policy setting how much material do we have within the EU and at what stage of life is it in? The next slide we can maybe just skip it's there on the empowered consumer and public buyers I'll come back to this as much the question is still and it was already touched upon how much you sell or how much we buy This is very crucial because it would not help the the planetary boundaries secure acting space If we have a lot of sustainable products, but just too many of those The last one is a little bit with a smile. It is very important to be green But it's also quite difficult for the moment with so much information out there to be green So there's still a lot to be done in order to provide information At the right spot and not overdo it with this Yes, I would like to give back to the stage and thanks for having me Thank you very much. Um, yeah, we see that it is a yeah It seems to be a long and intense way towards the circular economy So I already see a lot of discussion points here We keep them in mind But first I want to get back to Andrea Fetter who is coming more from yeah various perspectives actually and there has for example occupations such as A transformation researcher an activist a teacher or a journalist also She works on the topics of degrowth commons and critical eco feminism among others She's an editor of the popular magazine for transformation. Oh, yeah, and fellow of the laboratory for new economic ideas in leipzig She's also a co-author of the book the future is degrowth and an author of a book called convivial technology And that's actually also what I would like to know from you first What do you think? How can your concept of the convivial technology relate to circular economy? Does it fit together? Do you think that the circular economy is missing certain parts or how does it fit? Yeah, thank you very much for having me. I think And thank you almoot for the talk you give because I think I can directly Go on from that like having taught now Two years at a design institute at the university I'm very much in favor of of eco design, of course, but I'm also very much Thinking about what you said latest like there's no use in having all these green products and still have too much of them And I think here we really have to understand what is meant by convivial technologies to step back and think about What kind of stories? Are here at stake when we talk about the circular economy And a circular economy is certainly Becoming a very mighty story like as you have seen in a lot of european eu concepts and other concepts a lot of University fundings and so on everybody is working with the concept of circular economy and why I think it is because for most people as a Proverb is going you might know it is easier to imagine the end of the world than the end of capitalism and circular economy is certainly a way to Keep up the illusion that we might be able to solve the problems we face on this planet with Keeping this capitalist mode of production intact And it is based on the central myths of decoupling As was shown also by almo like the idea is to decouple the resource use from the economic growth and That is a very nice idea and It happens in a kind of relative decoupling at certain points We can see it in the industrialized countries for the last decades like there's Very slow decoupling in some uses of resources and also in some Uses of energy consumption But there is no such thing as an absolute decoupling. It's just physically not possible Because there is no such thing as a circular production in total because to produce something anew you have to Introduce some kind of energy And it's not possible to create these kinds of total closed loops That we would need to really overcome climate crisis so The good thing is there is not only these two possibilities Of on the one hand, there's the old mode of fossil capitalism and on the other hand There is the new mode of green capitalism Functioning within circular economy, but there is also if you accept That there is ways beyond capitalism. There's also a third option and that is quite good There's the possibility to have a kind of a post capitalist post growth carrying economy That functions in a total different way because how our economy functions On markets that is nothing that is nature given and it has not been there for all the time of human kind No, I mean, it's just social contracts. We are enacting in this kind of environment And we could also do otherwise So I think at this point now it's totally important that we Allow ourselves To have a much bigger imagination of how things could be and therefore, I am very happy to be to be part of a project that is called roadmap to a circular society that is a one and a half year project That is working on the On the fact that If we really want to have more sustainable products We won't find a techno fix for that but We have to think about a different kind of society And that is what the term circular society means in order to Have more Like a bit more of circularity, which is surely possible as is possible a relative decoupling We need a much bigger circular literacy for example, which means that people Live together in other ways that they change their social cultural structures of living together of being together of Doing transactions maybe outside of markets So convivial technology is a lot about Finding other kinds of so-called business models and thinking in terms of economy more Of the blossoming of economy and not of the ever-growing economy and As I went up here on this panel. I was thinking a lot about last time. I was here on the first bits and boime conference um I was facilitating a panel with silke helfrich who Unfortunately died quite young last um autumn and silke helfrich was one of the most important researchers on the commons in all of the world, I would say and That is exactly what we have to think about like how can we introduce Other forms of technology in combining them with economic models that base on commons and not on markets and profits so that is the basic idea of all kinds of Free software thinking of all kinds of open source and open data In a way that is Thinking about the term digital sovereignty Also, because as we have seen like the idea that in a lot of our products They can be tracked down where they are all the time of their life cycle and then can be Recycled in that kind of idea of circular economy that is also A very big problem if you think about in what world would we live then like we would live in a world where all the things Around us for example this chair or also like the thing my clothes my shoes Even maybe my pen do not belong to me and I am not Um the one who can decide whether I want to share it with you Because maybe we live together and I say oh you can have my pen or my clothes No, it belongs to a company and the company will take it back at the end of the life cycle and put it And will kind of recycle or refurbish or whatever do with it But I don't think that is a world we want to live in like a world where everything Around us is owned by corporations That is a kind of hyper capitalism Um, and that is the total opposite of the commons Which means we can deliberately decide with whom we want to create A community where we want to share our things And that is how we use less things if we share them and if we live together in another way, let's Give some short examples and then I will finish. Do I have the time still? Um I think a lot of hacker spaces are very interesting examples for that Um in that there is a collective space where people share knowledge and where people also share Hardware and means of doing and it shows that We can like tinker around and Create new meanings also with old tech Because there's a lot of things already on this planet the idea that we can build up everything from a new in a green way Is a kind of hubris where we We want to vanish all the things that are already there, but there is like Millions billions tons of artifacts on this planet that are already there and that could be reused and Reopened for example with other kinds of open source software another example is from the agriculture point like Um I think the producing beyond the market Is in the agricultural field the most Developed in the model of community-supported Agriculture which means that people get a share of The harvest of the farmers and share also the risk. They don't buy it with the market by directly at the producers um And how could we um for example implement in that kind of agricultural production um, also new forms of agrosolar parks that are um That will be built soon um But also how can we think about using the least? Technological means possible. For example, you can do agriculture also with a horse and maybe not only with a digital driven robot, but maybe at some In some fields a digital driven robot is the very good thing to do, you know, but thinking about technology in a way where is it really needed and where not it's not like that Automatically the more digitalized version is the best But maybe the other way around um, I hope we can Go deeper into all of these questions later But I will stop at that point. I think thanks a lot. Um, I would like to directly give the word to Andrea and Johanna who maybe want to react on the both Solutions that we've heard now or ideas. Um, who wants to go first Okay So, um The digital circular economy is still eco dependent I mean, it's still depending on the the natural resources as um, we see a In this eco dependency, we need to change the values and what Andrea said Uh, the economy of the commons. So why we are going to reproduce in the In a digital circular economy on in a circular economy The same values of the capitalism where the capitalism is producing a lot of Damage along the the different value change Why not to bring A new values for example the solidarity for example the community war for example Be aware of of all the impacts be aware and also recognize all the impacts That produce what we are using as well. So all the impacts that are impacts that is producing The mobile phones of the internet as well And the the energy to be Many people said we need to to Push the transparency of the circular energy, but it's not it's not also the transparency is Is to be responsible of those impacts And as a consumers we have so much impacts Uh or so much power to decide what type of energy or to decide what we are going to consume And what what is our role in this circular economy? And also I would like to to ask to the panel what about the inequalities how Approach the inequalities in this In this in the circular economy Do you know that in the production of energy? The north has their own south And the south the south has The south of the south So in how to Approach the inequalities in in this circular Economy how we mitigate For example the climate change What is the role in the in the digital circular economy the mitigation of the climate crisis? and and how we Approach inequalities And as well to the cop the coupling they use some material and energy Yeah, I don't know now. Maybe you want to answer shortly how Do the concepts address social justice? Now you should hear me. Um, well The social aspects are very important To what extent it's already Implemented in in the proposals this differs a little bit So the the idea with all those different approaches is to Create an overall network of Of things and I would yeah, I like to to give a word of cautious regulation and legal frameworks Are let's say in tendency always a little bit Rather behind the train that really anticipatory. This is just uh, let's say the quality How Decision making is done. So, um There is a lot of room for let's say non Activities be it by stakeholder groups be it by consumer protection Activities without pushing any responsibility around it's it's just the fact that regulation cannot solve everything And it needs to be clear that regulation is not Putting more social stress on on weaker parts of society or the the global let's say Equilibrium, um, but I would like also to go back very briefly to Andrea Fetter. I think she really did Put the finger into word it needs to be Sufficiency is something that starts to be really being discussed also in Brussels, which sounds a bit, uh, yeah How would I say? It's interesting because for a while it was not at all acceptable to talk about sufficiency now it came up with the let's say The sovereignty and the resilience discussion Um, sufficiency really starts to be an important part And here it's a very personal point of view. Um It is uh, it is really very, uh important We can talk about, uh Products but more specifically for that panel we can talk about the digital we really need to know Where we need it And not just put it out because we can put it out Um, this is this will not be helping and I'm fully uh with Andrea to to say for some of the users and the purposes The old tech might even be better because it's not connected. It has less surface for for cyber attacks and will run very nicely. Um It needs to be updated and software needs to be still available on those let's say older devices But this is very important where we also need to look at And what is very important is that we put digitalization into the service of well-being and planetary boundaries One thing we really did didn't get fully discussed is also Where digital can help to shorten Read the value chains and maybe make it more regional where also the let's say the Identification with the sharing concept that Andrea has put out could be more let's say felt for people because in in global Value chains the sharing might be a little bit more tricky Um, I would like to give you two quick. Um, let's say references that I really really appreciate yesterday. Um, the digital for sustainability network of researchers put out a new Report uh Tillman Santarius, which is called digital reset. Um, I think it's worthwhile looking into it because it's really about What values do we want to pursue with the digital? rollout and the digital development And there the commission has put out a strategic foresight 2020 on the twinning of the green and the digital transformation This might also be of interest for you to show you in what mine said The commission in total not the individuals but in total is where it comes to those two Main transformations that are very different in in their character. Thanks a lot Thank you. Um, I think do you need this? Yes, thanks a lot, and I think what became obvious and uh Here now, it's really an issue about power and social justice and we really have to make sure that this is not Leading in more concentration of power with big corporations as you pointed out having a fancy Fancy name of sharing economy or sharing models and then behind it's just more concentration of power by big corporates So I think we really have to be very cautious there and I think there we really need regulation to make sure that this digital power, which is not often very democratic is it's Really leads to uh, yeah, for example that the sharing model Commercialized sharing model doesn't even make all the other more democratic sharing models to vanish because it's just having a bigger Access to data and can just as more it has it much easier to expand expand and um in this context, I think you would yeah, I think it's Very interesting. We're saying that the sufficiency debate at brussel's level at the moment is coming in again And I think we have a big possibility. We really have to take now we see with the um, yeah ukraine war it became obvious that also Germany in in the context of raw materials is extremely dependent on Russia but it also and even much much much more Is dependent on china and that it's very very risky to be so dependent from countries Yeah from countries and even before 10 years ago or even more than that there was raw materials initiative and put out by the european union trying uh Trying to put um trade measures on china to get access to the raw materials from china And now I think it's a quite rare moment that we see this is maybe not the best option We have to really get independent from china and this Circular economy we can be one way but we really need to reduce our demand And to see how where we can really reduce the use of our raw materials in the whole circle to get independent To get more sovereignty and I think it's a very Rare moment we really have to take now and see how we can really bring this debate on that We really need to reduce our demand um, and we have to bring this forward at the moment and in the grad to the social aspect And I think what the european commission is doing at the moment It's quite enormous and it's a lot if you compare it to Many other commissions at the moment when I started with german watch more than eight years ago We were already talking about eco design for smartphones and tablets And nothing happened was only in another study another study another study and now finally eight years ago We have eight less later. We have a proposal for eco design on smartphones But there I think even in this proposal to become very concrete there We have a lot of ways where we see the social issue is not taken into account And also the power of digitalization is not really addressed. For example, there is no prohibition of the pairing of Parts which means the blocking of specific parts in products Which make repair impossible And I think all this issue have to be addressed and it's also about access to information access to spare parts by everybody And I think there we have to really look into the detail to see that it really will have an impact and that it's not only meant to be good, but that it really can Have an impact and just because repair is one of my topics. I've been working on a lot We see now at the moment. It's the first time we do be talking about the right to repair at the european level And at the same time we see repair us people repairing actually repairing Are just getting less and less and less because the conditions are so bad and there are no people Then it could happen in the end We have a right to repair whatever this is because it's quite have a different facets But um And then in the end we don't have anybody to repair anymore. So something to look at the local level is really to see that we Yeah, also in germany and all we really have to support craft to have people repairing and to Yeah to Make it possible that it's not in the end only the Corporations being able to repair and they won't do it in the long run And I think another just Looking at the policy dynamics at the moment There's a great push for a new raw material strategy at german level and also at the EU level And at the EU level, it's not within the circular in the green deal Oh, it's not well, it's in the green deal, but not within the circular package There's going to be a raw materials act And I think we really have to make sure that it goes hand in hand with all the issues Yeah taken up in the circular economy package that it's really seeing circular economy as one possibility to have demand to Satisfy the demand on raw materials and they're really already there enshrine the issue how we get our raw materials And enough raw materials for the economy is that we need to reduce our the demand So it really has to be looked at more holistically and I think there's a chance for it at the moment Thanks a lot So that everyone can also participate in the discussion. I think it's high time. We include you the audience If you would have any questions now, you can raise your hand. There's a microphone going around And you can get prepared. Yeah, there's one question here Thank you My question will be proceeded with a small case that Addressed especially to professor ideas, but also to other panelists. I'm from Poland. This is important in this case Because we are also a country with a big tradition of the coal mining and our current territorial government Denied strongly the climate change, you know and invested a lot of money in the coal mining It was very inefficient. So as a result half of the coal Comes from russia. I mean was coming from russia now at this source, of course it's cut and And we did invest in the other source of sources of energy And now in the panic the government is importing coal from colombia and my question is It might be a good for your economy for a short time a short period because There is a huge demand for coal. So maybe you can you know get some additional extra Kind of income from that and my question is there is any chance for you for colombia to avoid the the polish case and Invest this money in something different than coal money because for obvious reasons. This is a source of the past So you have to find some other like triggers for for your economy and for the other panel is the question is Do we have any ideas how to Help in this transition? If we keep this division north south, so how north can help south in this transition And maybe I mean I'm open for this ideas for something new than the current capitalism But we probably don't have much time. So we need some ideas that we can be used like immediately. Thank you Thank you for for your question. Yeah I think the this is uh, uh, this event is a good opportunity to Think about the responsibility in the in the energy terms as I told you For for us the energy classes has been like a big surprise as you said because the The coal exportation increase and Europe is demanding more coal from colombia. It says the The expansion of coal Is getting bigger And and this is affecting the communities in the caribbean coast of colombia. So Uh, the the study case is important because you As um, also the panelists talk about the digital circular economy We see the digital circular economy like a cycle But actually we don't see the whole picture of of of that Where these raw materials confront and what is these raw materials and the energy? It says confront our is the the what happened there as as he said And also there is a geopolitical context that Make a lot of changes and we previous to the to the war We were The decreasing the amount of production of coal and actually one of the regions one of the multinational companies decided to know No export more country from from that mines and actually they close and we are Like We are facing that close of this mine But as well we're facing at the same time dispassion of of coal mining in another region And also the expansion of a renewable energy in those region because this is in the caribbean of of colombia and we have A lot of potential in core reserves, but as well a lot of potential in renewable energy So this is a mix of energy there and also I I want to to raise that For the digital economy We need energy and as we see It seems that the governments and the political in in europe and as well in south america It tries to diversify the south's or energy But through coal oil through Renovables energy, but it's not changing the system. It's not and also is not Reducing the amount of energy that the the user So even if we Leave the fossil fuels. I mean the energy transition is not only leave the fossil fuels in the ground Means a lot of more for for the for the people in in colombia means dignified the lives of of the communities there and even with the Renovable energy we still are producing Impacts in the regions displacement of communities because the renewable energy Needs a lot of land for producing the same amount of energy that produce a ton of coal and and now because the coal prices Is so high Actually now we have a new government who is Try to to promoting the just transition try to To make a energy transition in our country But the problem is we have a lot of contrasts with these multinational companies that are exporting to Poland and to germany so what we are trying to do is To export try to make that these companies export the country the coal Not from New mines but from the the same mines because the Coal prices is so high that they can continue to strike the coal in the same mines That's what we try to to to Yeah to fight that no the no expansion of the more mines more coal mines to to the energy crisis In here the geopolitics of the energy crisis Thanks. I just pass over to I think Andrea was addressed. I I want also sorry I also want to address that I think the circular economy is a is a good tool But I need a should be A complementary to The study of the value of change I mean the knows where is the role materials come from And as well the life cycle of these of these materials So the digital needs to work more in the life cycle and the value of change So that would be one first fast-track solutions to look more at value chains any other suggestions? I mean the second question was what can we do right now? What would be? The things we have to focus on and Because the question was we cannot stop capitalism right now Are there any more concrete things that are that have to be done today that how we can make economy more circular? Without as not only relying on system change I mean you can answer but maybe also someone else That's a very big question I think one thing that you mentioned is that The focus on techno fixes is maybe not the fastest way to reduce consumption use and waste So I was thinking about Maybe solutions that go less into the direction which next digital innovation can we find? How complex can we make a product pass that it has all the information? But there are other shifting our focus to social innovations different ways of business models Are there any ideas there that come to maybe all of our minds also? Yeah, sure. I mean if you're More interested in depth in this you can also read in our new book the future is the growth that we have like a whole array of strategies how to go on in the struggle for other economic forms and And Like we stress basically three interlinked strategies Like the one would be creating more now topias more places where we can We can try out other forms of living together. There's also this whole discourse about Real labor in Germany like real world laboratories And I think we need a lot a lot a lot of them For example, like all kinds of repair cafes of For example, the hotels the it's open technology laboratories in the rural areas All kinds of hacker spaces all kinds of community supported everything Economic models But we also need Like of course institutional reforms And I thought of as you were talking about the ability To be able to repair things I mean one big problems in that is that our current tax system in Germany But also in a lot of other countries is taxing labor so much more than resources So that basically repairing things in a professional way Is not profitable and is not manageable. And so for example thinking about a massive tax reform in that way thinking about taxing labor less or especially combining it with Common common informs so you could think about labor Or people that work for not non-for-profit associations people that work for corporations for example Were taxed much less In labor costs that would increase the possibility for not for profit legal bodies and Kind of social business models to be able to have a lot of people At their service who would Be able to repair a lot of things which is already possible now. It's not a technological problem It's a problem of how economy works And of course there is also a technological problems that come on top That sometimes there is this software thing that you cannot fix a smartphone but The bigger part of the problem is an economic problem that it's not profitable to repair things And of course we need all kinds of struggles anti-extra-extractivist struggles Where the coal mining the lignite mining appears For example ending a lander Did this very big anti-lignite mining struggles and they do it all the time they've done lately A very big action at the kraftwerk in schwalde And I think it's very important to do this to highlight and to talk about all these kinds of struggles coming from the local people affected By this kind of resource extractivism that is also still On the base of all kinds of industries whether they called green or not All right, we would have time for one short last question if there is one Yeah, I'll try to be short So in my work, I tell companies that they have to find new business models for themselves for example Leasing and landing and so on and this monday I was in hamburg on the enviro info and I talked to Professor brown guard who is one of the founders of cradle to cradle and he told us that In the future all the companies They will not sell their products. They will sell The use of the products and all you have to know is what's inside and when will you get it back? And I always thought that was a great idea now andrea you said Um, this is not the future we want to live in and I found that really very interesting because it was the first time that somebody I heard somebody say that And now I'm asking myself. Am I unknowingly Helping the forces of evil because I'm promoting that companies lend their stuff instead of selling it to us What's the answer to this how can we find a way out of that? Yeah Yeah, thank you very much for that question actually I'm thinking about this cradle to cradle um proposals for over I think 10 years now and I was asking myself the same question than you and I would say yes It's evil um But not the idea of having this kind of resource cycles like there's a very Good idea in cradle to cradle, you know in doing these products differently in taking them back This is very valuable, but I think we really have to Decouple that ideas from the ideas of of corporations making their profit by lending um and the um The other possibility to that like where you could go in in supporting um corporations to find new business models is really I think The idea of community supported everything or in German. It's called Gemeinschaft getragendes wirtschaften. There is now a kind of How do you say that in english dach verband like a roof association um That is um in the funding. It's also called Gemeinschaft getragendes wirtschaften and the idea is that you really Produce and consume together in a kind of a verbrauchsgemeinschaft There is not like a market in between the consumers and the producers But they go together like this example of community supported agriculture and then I think This is such a valuable kind of model that there is people who produce I don't know shoes and other people who need shoes or you can Go that for everything, but they are not mediated by a market, but they come together Instantly, and I think there's a lot of questions still to be solved in how can this use how can a transition be What kind of legal bodies are the most suitable for that and so on we need a lot of work on all these Issues But the work is starting and I think It's very important that we go there and really think about how can we Get to a world that is based on commenting from where we are now in little steps And also then in bigger steps in formulating from our day-to-day basis And see where is the boundaries to go into a more common direction and then ask For institutional changes and other frameworks to support that Thank you So we're coming to a close Maybe to wrap up I think it was really interesting to see how we have a new buzzword or relatively new buzzword of the circle economy or digital circle economy Where a lot of actors want to plant in their ideas that they already have based on the economic models behind Sustainability views is there decoupling is there no decoupling? So I think it was really interesting to see in the light of the circle economy debates that have been there for a long time That is do we really need growth? Is it actually Destructional in our times where we already have enough stuff at least in the global north isn't more about shifting resources to where they are needed and closing circles So now I would just have a last round where everyone can say what they haven't been able to say yet And it would be nice if you could just pick one thing that we discussed or not discussed today where you say Okay, everything is important. But if I could change something today This would be the most important thing for me That's We'll see how difficult this task is for you. Um, and let's start with Johanna I think that your microphone is it working? Yeah, okay. Well, it's difficult one thing because it's so complex But I totally agree on the issue with the taxes I think that's really crucial to think about like what we have been discussing a long time with taxing raw materials The use of the raw materials as well and yeah taxing less labor I think that's really crucial to think of a different model there now really looking at what is happening in politics at the moment Something which I'm worried of a lot is the raw materials initiative like now seeing Europe seeing that they don't get access to raw materials anymore from russia and They just go to latin america Looking for more resources there and every I think we really have to prevent this that now trade agreements I used again to put pressure on countries to say you need to give us all the resources you have in a way don't make any Put any Added value on it, but just give it give us give it to us as resources and really maintain. Yeah, this Power Balance as it is in the moment. I think we really have to yeah prevent that this is just written and written again into Yeah into the Overall policies and we have to take this moment now and try to get more of the sufficiency and circular debate into it Yes, uh for me then There are two take home message The first one is the Recommunalization of social life How we starting to think about The economy of the commons Even the big challenges As as the questions Show us um and also The relocation of our activities Promoting the local production and local consumption I'm not sure. I don't know if Digitalization can do that if you can produce and consume the local in terms of the material and energy And and to do it that and to study that we need to combine different tools or different Methodologies Different approaches maybe one is the circular Economy But as well the The value change of the materials and energy and as well the life cycle We need to know what are the whole impacts of the whole life of What is we are producing and consuming in the digitalization Yeah Thank you. And I would pass over to Anur Narayan now Thank you. Um, I will make it a little bit more personal um In the sense of uh, I saw my grandmother and my grandfather who were born in 1905 and 1907 Having lived through two World wars and when I saw how they Set up their lives be it on social interactions But also on their material life on their their consumer activities I think I can still learn a lot because they had their values of what is let's say what is worth In a life that were quite different to what we usually see in every day So in a way going back to An old school understanding of What is important in our lives and do it with less materialism? Would do us all good. Thanks Thanks a lot and so Andrea I already said a lot, but maybe I want to um Again, um Support what I would say and go maybe a bit aside with that I'm also always very impressed when I see what grandmothers um How Thoughtful they are in a lot of times or my elderly neighbors with the stuff around them And then also I think For me, it's very important to think this old Kind of old-fashioned and maybe very future-oriented Relation to things with ideas of Being together in a more just way than it was 100 years ago like to mix that kind of Frugal approach With the ideas of the queer movement with the ideas of feminist movements and of post-patriarchal thinking of how to relate to each other That is for me always very interesting in So that we have a movement that is not just going back, but maybe stepping aside from this story of Linearity and modernity where we are in And really trying to find another way each day From where we are Yeah, thank you So maybe a final wish from my side as well We've listened today to people that we don't normally hear so much in the discussion of digitalization and the digital Innovations and that is people Women first of all, maybe they are also underrepresented when we talk about Solutions or how much technological solutions can actually help But then there's also the side of not only listening to big tech companies, but also listening to People who work in civic organizations who work in sustainability research and so on So maybe one thing that we want to address as well is when we are making policies when we are Making big ideas of what could the circular economy be? It's really about who do we listen to and who gets to set the narrative every as we've also seen with Is there decoupling in circular economy or is it more a degrowth perspective? I think we find both in the literature and it's up to us who we did decide to listen to and how we want the circular economy to be Yeah, um, so thanks a lot to our guests and um, yeah, I hope you have a good rest of the day And let's all talk if you have further questions. We are here. Um, thanks again. I'm naga for joining us And um, enjoy your lunch