 Good morning and a very warm welcome to the 24th meeting of the Social Justice and Social Security Committee. We have apologies today from Paul O'Kane. Our first item of business for today is a decision to take agenda items 3, 4 and 5 in private. Are we all agreed? Our next item is our last evidence session on the pre-budget. We are going to focus on specific budget priorities covered by our remit. I welcome to the meeting, our panel, Gordon MacRae, assistant director for the communications and advocacy shelter Scotland. Graham O'Neill, policy manager, Scottish Refugee Council and Bill Scott, senior policy adviser, Inclusion Scotland. Thank you very much for joining us and a few points to mention about the format of the meeting before we start is if you could just wait until I or a member ask him the question, say your name before speaking, don't feel that you have to answer every single question and if you have nothing new to add to what's been said by others then that's perfectly okay as well. Can I ask everyone to keep questions and answers as concise as possible? I am now going to start off with the questions and we have approximately an hour and 10 minutes so I'm going to kick off first. Can you describe how the cost of living crisis is affecting your organisation and the clients that you support? In what ways do you think the impact of the cost of living crisis should influence the Scottish Government's budget decisions and I'm going to bring in Graham first of all and then I can pose that question to Gordon and Bill if you get any comments on that. Thank you very much convener and to fellow colleagues in the committee and just to say that we're sorry we never gave you written evidence, we'll try and rectify that after the session. People we work with at Scottish Refugee Council especially people who are in the UK asylum system have frankly been in a cost of living crisis kind of searing insecurity for about 20 years and it's worsened you know as inflation's increased for example over the last few years you know asylum support doesn't match that in any proper way so just to give an illustration for asylum support levels for people who are in the asylum system if you're in what's called dispersal or community-based accommodation which is about 52,000 people across the UK currently then you get about £6.80 a day you're not allowed to work unless you've been waiting for over 12 months which is many people because the asylum decisions backlog for an initial decision and it's only a very small number of jobs in the UK government's shortage occupation list that you can access so effectively you're denied a right to work put into the severest form of UK state sanctioned poverty and essentially the left there which is you know why the asylum decision backlog which is currently I think about 170,000 and still rising is such a waste a waste of people's talents and skills and desperation to contribute to their new homes hopefully within the UK including many other parts of Scotland at the moment but also a waste of financial resources so before I just mentioned the effects that it's having on the people we work with and serve just to note that there's a gross dysfunctional distribution of public monies within the UK asylum system currently so about never been more money in the UK asylum system there is currently so we're talking about £4 billion a year remembering the asylum accommodation contracts were contracted out in 2019 for a 10-year period at a total cost for a decade of £4 billion well that's getting eaten up in four billion year but the key point here is that there's a gross dysfunctional distribution of where that money's going it's basically all going to private companies right it's going to Mears, Serco and Clear Springs or the people that they contract with increasingly hotel chains and because of that that gross waste of public money none of that goes to local communities local authorities refugees certainly not if you're in an institutional ex hotel accommodation or barracks accommodation you get £1.40 a day I mean so we're talking really grim Victorian style deliberate destitution and suffering inflicted by the UK government on people in the asylum system and that's worsened the effect is therefore like any other form of entrenched severe poverty health inequalities are driven down to the ground for people mental health plunges we're seeing an increasing number of people losing their lives within the asylum system and we've been working with liberty investigates for a number of years exposing that that that loss of life we saw some of that in Glasgow in the early stages of the Covid period but those warnings weren't heated people have recourse to you know the institution which we don't want of food banks you know people are going to food banks routinely in order to supplement members here you know such as Bob the deputy convener will know this well from his own work constituency work and people you know sometimes don't just choose between eating and you know sometimes people you know will go without days you know been able to eat because especially for asylum seeking families there's about 1500 asylum seeking children within Glasgow currently you know in the parents center or parent as it often is well we'll make those sacrifices so there's been rampant social insecurity inflicted upon people in the asylum process for about a generation it's got worse and it's happening in plain sight within our communities so the effect is utterly dreadful there's similar patterns emerging but not as not as desperate for for people who have came over from Afghanistan as well they've been effectively in our view abandoned by the UK Government and we point to what's happened with Ukraine and show us what can be done if the political will and the infrastructure of government be at UK or Scottish Government is actually put behind but we see the polar opposite sadly within the asylum system so I mean at Scottish Refugee Council we became which is it's horrendous to say but you know we became so normalized you know within the UK asylum system that we build our services around poverty mitigation and we have done for for a number of years so I mean there's a few other things I could say but I'll maybe stop at this point and I mean the final point is maybe it's just about the Scottish Government and you know the Scottish Government have been consistent backers of people in the asylum process we do want to see more from the Scottish Government because we think that there's so much contribution that people in the asylum process can make we're in a very worrying point right now which I would like to go into a bit later on in the session about a prospect of thousands of people who need destitute between them and Christmas within Scotland particularly within Glasgow and just to say that British Red Cross have flagged us up at a UK level Glasgow is the most affected city in the UK for this imminent refugee destitution crisis this is people who have been granted status as well so we're in that we're really at the prospect now of we need to have a really serious Scottish Government-led response to that because it's coming anyway so it's just to kind of raise that sadly that that that imminent reality thank you okay no thanks very much game can I now bring in Gordon thank you community um you asked what's been the impact of the cost of living crisis on our beneficiaries and others as an organisation and the simple answer is it's devastating the the situation in Scotland just now is that a cost of living crisis exacerbated a homelessness system that had so many holes in it that it wasn't able to to catch people when it when it broke we are with the warnings of the Scottish leaders of local authorities so last from the Scottish housing regulator we've had at audit Scotland all all reporting publicly on how the systemic risk of failure in Scottish homelessness services that failure is live that's happening now especially in our larger cities and people's lives are being are not just being downset but they're being they are being harmed quite significantly for us the the cost of living crisis isn't that new to to to most people that we work with but it's removed many of the options that that we once had an expectation that private rented sector could pick up the pieces has just been shown to be to be short sighted and unsustainable the competition for for housing we do have is so great that we that there's not the ability to increase the availability of less to homeless households and so people have been trapped in temporary accommodation we can see the evidence for this we now have record numbers of households in in the homeless system and no real plan to to address it we've seen a hundred and thirty percent increase in children in temporary accommodation over the last 10 years no no immediate plan no new money no new no new interventions to to deal with it we're seeing local authorities asked to do more with less and I think announcements of small pockets of money that that don't adequately address the overarching cuts there's also a lack of transparency around where where that money is going I think the audit scotland report early last year really shows the difficulty of trying to understand what's happening on the ground there are many factors that drive into that you undoubtedly decisions at UK level around benefit levels the local housing allowance tax incentives that that actually mean that by to let landlords are competing with first-time buyers and it's first-time buyers that miss out so first-time buyers stay in the private rented sector those potential first-time buyers are then competing with low-income households for what available housing there is so that those are there is a need for what we would call a whole systems approach that involves the UK government but here in Scotland within the within the decisions that can be made with this budget we think it is is difficult to justify a year-on-year 16 cut in in the social housing budget that's what was profiled in advance and we knew that we knew that was coming but it in our view fails to recognise what has changed since those since that budget plan was originally put in place and what has changed is every six months an announcement of a new record high level of homelessness a new record high level of breaches of legal duties local authorities are acting unlawfully and are announcing they're acting unlawfully because they are unable to meet the their statutory obligations so for us we would like to see a reprioritisation when it comes to both revenue and capital we want to see better investment in local services we think the the temporary accommodation task and finish group report that I published last year which shelled to Scotland co-chaired along with the association of local chief housing officers sets a template for what can be done in the in the immediate term but that takes resource and that currently that that additional resource isn't on the table and ultimately we would say if the government if Scottish ministers know what the solutions are but choose not to choose not to resource those solutions then we have to we have to I think reasonably conclude that they are they are knowingly allowing a situation to to get worse and we appreciate that our government has to balance decisions and has to meet other priorities but when it comes to homelessness in Scotland the current the current response is insufficient to to reduce the harm experienced by the people at work with Shelter Scotland okay thanks very much Gordon I don't know if you want to come in bill yeah very much so more on how it's impacting on disabled people and particularly our own organization we are finding it more difficult to meet the needs of our member organizations and our members because we are experiencing year on year cuts to our budget from Scottish Government but the situation faced by disabled people themselves is far more serious than that the there is a research institute for disabled consumers has a research panel of 3800 disabled people as members all impairments are covered it's very representative of disabled people across the UK and they asked their consumer panel about their financial wellbeing and 27 percent of the disabled people that were asked said they were in serious difficulties financially and another 23 percent said they were struggling and that's half of disabled people are either struggling or in serious financial difficulties and that is echoed again by GRFs finding again 23 percent of families for someone is disabled or behind on at least one bill or payment and four percent are behind on three or more and two fifths to those are on payments to public services DWP local authorities and three and ten households with a disabled person have no savings whatsoever so there is no resilience there is no ability to meet additional expenditure and that is leading to food and fuel insecurity and we come back to the use of food banks I took part in a trust of trust event yesterday and trust of trust Scotland report three out of four of all the food bank users in Scotland are disabled people in their families so that is how it is impacting on disabled people remember 20 just over 20 percent of population three out of four food bank users that that is the seriousness of what it means and we coming back to the organisation some of our staff again we were talking about trauma and ford practice yesterday some of our staff are traumatised by the experiences that are being related to them because disabled people are suicidal and they're literally saying I can't afford to put in the heating I've got no money to put food on the table what is the point of living you know and we are not an individual service provider you know people are not phoning us up for advice on benefits or anything like that but what they are doing is when we ask them about their experiences they're they're being honest with us but that has an impact on staff as well and I think a lot of frontline service staff are really beginning to feel that that you know the difficulties dealing with people who have essentially given up because they cannot see a way out of the financial difficulties and feeding their children clothing their children etc is really really hard so it is a huge impact and when we say that disabled people are suffering disproportionately all the evidence bears it out okay thanks very much Bill I'm now going to invite Katie Clark and thank you thank you thank you convener and Gordon has already spoken about reprioritisation and you'll be aware that the medium term financial strategy analysis has highlighted a funding gap for the Scottish Government so in light of this how do you think the Scottish Government should respond and how should it be prioritising its budget and I'll maybe bring in one of the other panel members who hasn't already spoken about prioritisation Bill or would one of the others prefer I don't know Graham would you prefer to come first well you know we we would certainly urge prioritisation the reprioritisation of current spending plans I think there is a need to continue to deal with the cost of living crisis and you know I don't see where the spending is going to come from for that so you have to look at current expenditure and say how are we going to deal with that second thing is that the health service because of the crisis in social care is under even more pressure and that is causing the extra expenditure in the health service so you know by prioritising social care spend you actually keep people out of hospital you release nhs resources to deal with people who are ill and in serious need of treatment rather than treating people because of things like hypothermia because they're not eating properly because they're not going to eat so your social care and dealing with the essentials in life will relieve pressure on the nhs and release money that could be better spent elsewhere I don't know what any of the other people Can I just to kind of build on the point about reprioritisation one thing I would say is we sometimes lose sight of the fact that affordable housing is unique as a capital investment because it's an investment and it actually makes money for government and the rents coming and pay off and there's been a kind of probably a generation or more view that social housing is there to pick up the pieces for the poorest and least most vulnerable in society and I think we've lost sight actually of its foundational role within a housing system and actually the lack of social housing pushes up prices of other houses and the interventions that government has made in the market through help to buy schemes and others have been inflationary on house prices so if you want to invest in housing to bring down prices you invest in social housing there's not a controversial view amongst economists and so the Scottish Government look at the most recent affordable housing supply programme statistics I think the question is why are we still putting so much into into alternative forms of ownership why are we still putting subsidy into mid-market rent which deals with a different problem it doesn't deal with the lower problem and again can potentially be inflationary in some circumstances so I think it's about what is the purpose of capital investment when Audit Scotland reported on the previous affordable housing supply programme they couldn't measure it against anything because there was no target there was no policy goal expressed so I think that it's getting behind the business case not just the social the social problems which we think justifies every profile of budget yeah no thank you convener in thanks Katie first of all we associate ourselves very much with the written evidence that shell or Scotland put in there is a housing emergency it's concerning that that housing emergency is not reflected within the Scottish Government budget in part the reason we say that one of the main reasons we say it is like colleagues at shell or Scotland every day our advisors who are increasingly traumatised with what they're experiencing the scale of human needs that they're dealing with are hitting this wall of inappropriate temporary accommodation that's actually not temporary it's long-term accommodation and that's became normalised and we've got to this point where as as Gordon said local authorities are not able to meet and they're saying as well they're not able to meet their duties so that to me and I'm not a housing specialist you know we work at Scottish Refugee Council and we come up in relation to housing a lot which is what I'm talking about now on it but there's surely a moment there where we just go okay hang on a minute why have we got into this situation and what do we need to do so we think there does need to be that kind of laser focus on social housing and the capital spend is on social housing because at the moment we're seeing not only in asylum accommodation as I said in opening remarks is gross dysfunctional distribution of public monies and industrial scale going to the private sector and never to be seen again never touching communities or anything like that but we're seeing the same we think in relation to accommodation temporary accommodation so called for people who are born and bred in Scotland as well as in other parts of the UK so there's that from a social just this committee's social justice perspective we just need to stop and pause and say how in a minute we need to try and get recognition of the housing emergency back to the fundamental purpose I think it was Gordon was saying around what is it we're trying to do with housing and and think for the benefits and investment that it can give and I raised the point earlier in opening remarks around what we're facing with the UK government's policy so as I say we're anticipating it could be about two and a half thousand people between now and Christmas this year that the UK government in their own interests are finally getting around to issuing asylum decisions after leaving people in limbo for years now it's good that people are making decisions especially for positive cases it's long overdue but people have been desperate for it what should be a moment of celebration and hope for people it's actually going to turn into a moment of acute risk and to be on it's not just risk reality of destitution so when British Red Cross at a UK level talk about 50 000 people in the UK and we could have tent cities I mean we need to be realistic that we're not far away from that in Scotland and particularly within Glasgow because Glasgow's already struggling to meet its homelessness duties because of the pressures that are placed upon we've got a lot of sympathy with the homelessness staff and the people try to deal with that there so in terms of we we appreciate that the Scottish government can automatically and deal with the issues around asylum policy we actually do think there's a legal case here about the way that the Home Office are acting is in legal terms wholly unreasonable in terms of issuing such a number of decisions with no direct funding given to local authorities affected or Scottish government and then expecting them to pick up the pieces knowing fine well the pressures that these local authorities and especially in Glasgow are already under it's a kind of conscious willful denial of the truth from the Home Office there but the reality is all of this money is going in well not all but most of it's going into private pockets and I suppose if there's something that the Scottish government can do there to try and be a bit harder in some of the private companies that are making so much money better regulation I think that I think to be honest that that's the thing competence that should be seriously considered because because otherwise we're just going to have this gross this functional distribution of public monies going to private interests and all the while the families the kids be asylum seeking or or Scottish kids they're just stuck right now in Glasgow in other areas and really inappropriate traumatising a common temporary accommodation which is no such thing and how in earth can somebody move on in their lives that that makes a mockery of any sense of being able to get a stability in your life so if it's refugee integration how in earth can somebody integrate as a new refugee for stuck in temporary accommodation they can assist this reality check that we need to say let's grip the housing emergency it is it's a profound persistent and pivotal issue and it needs to be treated as such I'm now going to invite Jeremy Balfour in thank you thank you and good morning panel but if I can maybe aim this at you first because it picks up your submission and then if you have a two want to jump in I mean your submission highlights the areas for increased spend such as social care and additional 23 million for independent living fund increase in the winter heating payment and increasing social security spending for disabled people given that we are in a tight fiscal framework how should the Scottish Government fund these proposed additional spend and I suppose do you have a priority of those lists of which you would put top on lists from and on other other programmes which you would cut so that that money can be diverted there well luckily I'm not a Scottish Government minister I really don't want to get into the business of saying where cuts should fall I do think there is a need to reprioritise it I've given the example of social care I hate the expression bed blockers because people that are stuck in hospital because there is no social care available to them that's the last place that they want to be they want to be out in the community they want to be back with their families and yet they're stuck in hospital and they're costing the NHS huge sums of money to keep them there and beds that would be better used to treat people who are ill and need that treatment but they can't get out because there isn't enough social care available in the community to let them out so we need you know to think about that in a strategic way and say how are we going to solve that problem and the only way I can see is we need to prioritise spend so that social care gets its fair allocation and can relieve some of the pressure on the NHS which will help the NHS in the longer term you know and will help it even in the short term you are the independent living fund again by helping people live independently on their own you relieve pressures elsewhere in the system so most of the suggestions we've made other than the social security ones are actually about greater efficiency in terms of how we spend our money the ones on benefits are there because the crisis for disabled people the cost to living crisis is bearing really really heavily on them they have already additional costs you know that's acknowledged by the government but those additional costs have been rising with inflation so what and you know scope try and measure what those additional costs are and they say the average is 900 a month in scotland 900 a month for a disabled person so if it was 900 a year ago it's more like 1100 now and where is that extra money to come from if not from social security budget and I acknowledge that it's going to be extremely difficult which is why I've suggested a couple of targeted pieces of spending you know the increase in the the winter heating allowance would only cost the Scottish Government about 20 million it'd be really effectively well targeted to some of the poorest households over half of the 400,000 households that receive that payment have a disabled adult or child in them so you know it's a good way getting extra cash to people who are in desperate need you know so yeah you can you can think about targeting where where your extra spend is going as well to make sure it is getting to the people who desperately need it and I think that's what First Minister said we are going to have to make those decisions and make them in favour of those in the greatest need I'm making the case disabled people are certainly amongst those in the greatest need I don't know if you were once coming in I'll write and then I'll let Bob in this stuff with us up thanks yeah I mean I think I've been very helpful I mean I suppose just on winter winter heating payment would you extend it to anyone on any form of adult disability payment and child payment or is that targeting of people who are maybe at home more or do you have a view on that? I mean you know I would I would make a payment available to everybody on adult or children you know disability payment you could do that but if you're making choices then about those in greatest need then those on means tested benefits are by definition already in the greatest need they're on the lowest incomes and therefore it's relatively well targeted to do it through that scheme because you're absolutely certain that that money will reach at least 200,000 households with a disabled adult or child in I think I should just for the record come in of a additional mind that I am on it myself okay thanks Jeremy I'll bring in Bob Doris thank you just really briefly to Mr Scott I know it's hard to choose what to prioritise and what to de-prioritise the £20 million suggestion that you made Mr Scott there's also a suggestion that the Scottish child payment should should also increase from £25 per week I would note that 40% of children living in poverty have a disabled person within that household so the Scottish child payment supports disabled families also and that's lost a little bit sometimes so if you'd a choice Mr Scott would you increase the winter heating allowance or would you increase the Scottish child payment because those are the kind of invidious choices that government have to make what's your view on that? I'd increase both because because one is aimed at dealing with fuel poverty during the winter and and we have to get our heads around the fact that last winter 800 people were hospitalised for hypothermia in the space of three weeks in Scotland if we want to prevent that we want to prevent that winter pressure Mr Scott you've made your case the point I'm trying to make convener is you've absolutely made your case £20 million for winter heating allowance £40 million would be fantastic so would £60 million that's not the point I'm making you've absolutely made your case Mr Scott but you're talking about priorities and I'm asking you to be laser-like of what your priorities would be because that's what we have to decide the committee as well yeah in within priorities what you have to do is say who are in the greatest need okay there is additional help there for all families on low income benefits through the Scottish child payment that's absolutely right that all of those families need that support what I'm saying is disabled households face additional costs over and above those faced by every other family and therefore you also need to provide them with some additional support and that is acknowledged within the social security system in disability premiums carers benefits this is so it's it's not an either or for me it is yes we need to support all the families but we also need to give target support to those families I won't come back in because I appreciate why I have to ask that question before doing budget scrutiny yeah thanks very much Bill I'm going to quickly bring in Gordon but I'm conscious of time and then I'll bring in Ross Mitchell just very quickly I think I'm going to understand the point that it's going to be us making I think they're just as a third sector organisation trying to scrutinise the budget there's not enough information in the budget to actually when you talk about 20 million pounds or 40 million pounds it's impossible for policy people outside of of the civil service to actually understand that level of allocation within within this budget and so whilst the overarching point is well made I think it is it's quite unreasonable for a third sector organisation to try and offer well that one versus that one when we don't have that level of scrutiny thank you I'm now going to bring in Ross Nicole thank you thank you and thank you panel for for coming along you've kind of answered this already it was actually to Gordon but given the information you've already given and Graham I think you've already answered this why should affordable housing supply be the Scottish government's number one priority for capital spend in the budget now as I say you've already pretty much given me an answer for that but again if you could just add a little bit to that that would be helpful and I suppose I'm asking really do you think that there actually is adequate home home focus when it comes to the parliament or even this committee considering is is links to child poverty and as Graham's already very eloquently put to the refugee issue that we have I think it's important just to to rate it this is a housing emergency this is not normal and I think the you know we ask is there enough focus on that I don't see evidence that there is a huge amount of energy from parliament or government to develop an emergency intervention at a time when home we have record levels of homelessness record levels of stay you know and I think that there's a real risk that we become like a boil in a frog situation just becomes normalised that this is just the new normal this level of homelessness on the issues of supply I've already said why I think it should be re-prioritised but I would add to that it isn't just about money it's also about how that money is spent and I think there is quite a lot of evidence from this from the Scottish Housing Regulator and from social landlords themselves that we expect what's got the housing revenue accounts to do an awful lot when it comes to borrowing for net zero for the decarbonisation and I think there is you know as I said this is an emergency we need to say we can't do every priority at the same time and it's very much you know the same as they have to convene and was saying so what is the order of priority we would say it's new supply so let's make sure that the the capital investment we have goes on new supply and we might have to take a view as to the social some social stock may take a bit longer the other thing we we we we think we should be doing is buying stock on the open market more readily there is some good evidence now and we've done a little bit more of that recently but when we're talking about targeting the likes of larger properties for larger families which are often more in need for monopolised ethnic groups or households with disabled people increasingly one of the quickest ways to do that and reduce pressure on the system is to buy in the open market so that's the kind of leadership role as well as having the capacity that's that's required. Yes, I'm happy to hear what you want to say. Yeah, I mean I think Gordon kind of saying there about the order of priority is quite important so we do think when we've reflected in this internally because we're seeing a lot of the issues that shelters see of people who are not having their homelessness rights met and then when they are ultimately met it's into really inappropriate accommodations I was saying in the scale of that we were seeing for a number of years but it really up I suppose even though we think overall the Ukraine response from the Scottish government has been has been positive it did also expose the fragility of the wider homelessness issues we've been seeing in asylum for a while and obviously I've mentioned a few times what what's about we're about to encounter in asylum in the next three months within particularly Glasgow but also in wider Scotland and I was just going back to first principles you know of like I'm not a housing specialist but if you have a home or something you feel is a home as opposed to B and B then you start to be able to settle mentally and you start to be able to plan you start to be able to hopefully get a job you start to be able to if you've got family get your kids into school or nursery and you can actually start to do I suppose many of us in this room at this point in our lives at least can take for granted you know and for us you know working at Scottish Refugee Council we've worked like many people who are homeless situations who have had chaos driven through their lives disruption driven through their lives and are having to be resilient and sometimes can't be you know it's just becomes unbearable and the importance when people speak to us about having that home is is profound and going from lived experience therefore I'm trying to convey that obviously as a representative from a Scottish Refugee Council is people are telling us this is essential as well so if we want to take people seriously we do need to to go okay what does that actually mean that we need to do as people all in relative positions of kind of power essentially government parliament ngo etc and at the moment we're not seeing that translated into the Scottish government's priorities now we very much appreciate what the deputy convener's saying that you know hard choices do need to be made we get that but the way we try to frame this is to say from a refugee integration perspective that people have got no prospect of being integrated or integrating themselves if that's what you wish to do if they don't have a home and they really need a home to put those things in lives but we're working with families and temporary accommodation in different parts of Scotland particularly in Glasgow do you know and that's a very distant prospect a home for them so I mean I'm not going to get any technicalities beyond just trying to convey here hopefully that it's a pivotal step because it's essential for being able to move on and settle and get on with your life a Scottish child payments are such an important intervention but that is that's in terms of order of priority it's part of it it needs to be part of it but I do think that we need to think how do we bring the housing emergency in so that the people which get the Scottish child payment are actually able to use that resource to move on in their lives so in terms of like just thinking around this like that you know refugee integration policy for years in our view has been very positive and progressive in Scotland but new scots is a strategy which is currently out for consultation hasn't had teeth it hasn't actually been something that permeates policy within Scottish Government being child poverty or transport policy or wherever our housing policy is just not there right frankly it's not there and that's one thing as we're talking to Scottish Government and now we need it to be there we need it to be mainstreamed we need it to be there for it and if for example it was there then you could start talking about things like a refugee integration service for Scotland and that is an investment because what you can do then is have a bridge from people who are desperate to work getting their status and then moving on to work and then being able to access housing rather than homelessness as well so there's I think this thing about investment and prevention is really important and housing emergency needs to be acknowledged otherwise we're we're not actually going to deal with it we're just going to be sticking plaster on the fundamental problems thank you thank you very much it actually sort of leaves a little bit on to my next question if that's okay convener and I thank you very much for the information you've given and back to Gordon if I may the Scottish housing regulators national report on the Scottish social housing charter 2020 that's a fun thing to say highlighted the tough financial decisions social landlords need to make a rising that from the settle settling below inflation rent rises along with increased cost of maintenance and improving I'm sorry I've got a bit of a cold my brain's a bit fuzzy just bear with me and improving the energy efficiency of existing stock registered social landlords are reducing and delaying their plans to build new homes I've actually had representations from social landlords that say that the rent fees legislation has directly reduced delayed and in some cases completely halted plans for new social accommodation so given that there are challenges that social landlords face how much difference would an increased capital budget make for new homes and is there any other action that you think the Scottish government could take to improve the supply of new homes and Gordon primarily I agree I'm I know you want to come in but I really want to hear what Gordon's got to say on that I think it's important to disaggregate what actually social landlords are doing so you know I'm surprised to hear that social landlords said that they're postponing social housing because of because of the rent cap and rent freeze but I'm aware that they've postponed mid-market rent developments that that they believe will finance you know the profits of which can go back into the system and there's definitely there definitely is an impact on on that as far as rent caps. At Shedd Scotland we never actually call for a rent cap when we welcome anything that reduces the the housing costs of households which we think are too high but we're very conscious of the impact it has on housing revenue accounts especially if that if that policy is not planned and it's not something that we're able to to to propose we also haven't really seen a benefit to our clients of the eviction ban because of the way that the years threshold was set so low so within that we have we have a housing providers who whose own financial resilience is now is now severely challenged I think we are concerned that certain social landlords understandably are postponing development work because there's not a duty to build there's no requirement in social landlords to grow their housing stock their requirements are to maintain and meet the needs of their existing of their existing tenants and and it is it is pragmatic for a for a for a board looking at the financial situation to say well let's not take on anything that's a new risk let's focus it and that's why we say is for the Scottish Government to provide that that leadership in that direction to set a mission of making sure that we're building social homes that we're targeting those social homes where the most needed that they take the form of larger properties that address the the emergency in in temporary accommodation and that we listen to the voices in the in the housing sector both the regulator and the and the landlords to say what do you want us to do first because we can't do everything at the same time and I would certainly share Graham's observations around the Ukrainian resettlement you know a very productive positive approach that was taken but there wasn't the capacity within the homelessness system to to both absorb that new new new response and deal with what was already what was already a crisis and I think sometimes we you know we need to be cautious about layering more and more expectation on what is a diminishing capacity within within service providers across the country. I'm quickly going to bring in James Dornan who's attending remotely with a supplementary so invite James to come in. Thank you very much convener it's just on the point Gordon made there is he saying that that landlords should be putting back what he considers to be unnecessary improvements or repairs and everything should be going on in the new bill because there is always a certain amount of money and I mean I know that we need more housing I agree that social housing should be a priority but sometimes it's it's cheaper for the government to be able to be able to build to get the private housing build and it is local authority housing or social housing but is he really saying that what should be happening here is there should be no work getting done on improving the the energy and housing or should we be doing both with a pot of money that is not infinitesimal? No it's not what I said I said we shouldn't be relying on housing revenue account to finance it and finance to finance more and more things housing revenue accounts should be used to finance the improvement of existing stock and new stock what we've seen is an increase in the expectation that that will also meet the decarbonisation agenda and and other things so it's that there has been an increase in expectation of what that source of income will will will address but there hasn't been an increase in that in that income for social landlords okay thanks James can I just quickly come in as well on a supplementary Gordon in relation to what you've touched upon as well and that is like the 60 million national acquisition plan that was announced just at the beginning of the summer and I know from my own local authority in South Lanarkshire they have been purchasing through finance quite a lot of private houses and what not within the area particularly in the East Kilbrides in my constituency but have you got any best practice in terms of other local authorities in terms of doing that and is that a pattern that's actually starting to emerge to basically you know deal with homelessness yeah so this was very much of the government's response to the task and finish group the 60 million is not new money it's the it's focusing existing existing allocation on acquisition we very much welcome that I think it's important to say what the difference within that this national acquisition programme is supposed to be because as you rightly say local authorities and rsls have been acquiring property for a long time it's always been part of the of the mix but generally it's been last in the last in the block so that it makes the business case for for maybe insulating a a series of tenements so it's you know a policy of buying that what that last property if it comes on to the market or it's been to meet you know is being when a developer an area has brought a brought a development on and they've had properties that they've been looking to to offload what we're looking for with the national acquisition plan is to target purchases where they're needed for the especially these larger households that are trapped in temporary accommodation for years on end and it's it's saying how can we use acquisition to reduce the number of people in temporary accommodation as opposed to using that acquisition as part of the normal mainstream supply of new affordable housing this is a kind of short term thing the guidance is not yet published there is ongoing work between between local authorities the Scottish Government we're not quite we hope that's not just a sort of checklist that is actually kind of quite quite targeted we're not party to to those conversations and where we with interest what will come forward there is some good practice we were aware of of Edinburgh in recent times recent times starting to to look more more proactively especially this issue of larger properties that keeps coming up and there's a net that there is some work behind the scenes for local authorities and other social analysts coming together to co-produce that guidance that will come forward so whilst we're concerned that there's not new money and we want to see explicit reference to properties for people in the in the temporary accommodation system we do welcome the use of acquisition as a as part of the toolkit to meet to meet existing needs okay thank you very much i'm now going to invite Bob Doris thank you thanks governor this is a question for Graham O'Neill Graham I was going to ask about the elements of the budget you think are most important for supporting refugees in asylum seekers and clearly you've put on record very powerfully issues in relation to housing so if you're asked to restrain yourself and not get down that road because that bit we know we're clear about that what other aspects of budgets do you think makes an impact we could we'd like to see more spent on despite my appeal for the money coming from i get all that but in answering that question because i think i may not get back in convener i'm conscious the legal immigration act constraints spend on monies in this area because it ends scotland's government power to support survivors of trafficking in scotland for instance when i look at the budget of for three years between 2022 to 2025 trafficking awareness raising alliance tara and migrant helper schedule to have 6.35 million pounds between them that might be ultra virus for the scotland's government to fund going forward because of the legal immigration act but i miss of me is deputy chair of the cross party group immigration not not to mention that during budget scrutiny so what areas of spend has significant impact where would you like to see more and do many comments on those restrictions on government okay thanks very much deputy convener so i'll keep out of the housing issue i mean of course it's got i mean people in the silent process as well as people that have just been granted status you know they're coming out really severe poverty as i said earlier on so you know the things that's got its child payment are so important as they are for all all children and families so you know we welcome that who wouldn't welcome that from a social justice perspective the the parts of the Scottish budget which really help the third sector work you know the third sector budget line you know the support that's given to to organisations that work in this area is is vital i suppose on that we would say that we need to think more more productively i think around what we mean by things like integration standards and integration services and i think often we felt that they'd been kind of like mire to an extent in quite a short term intervention for people as they move from one system to another system so from the UK system to the to the Scottish system in our case in the UK and really not thinking enough about work and how we can get people through an integration service into work social security housing really important but works are really and i think we need to be looking because the home office are you know at long last issuing a lot of decisions at break next speed many of those decisions around three quarters will be grants of refugee status we have huge labour market challenges across the UK as well as in other western european countries so you know we need to be thinking a bit more broadly i think about how we can invest through scottish government funding and integration and work being absolutely pivotal that because that's what people tell us is really important so that's not necessarily something that would automatically mean more money getting spent but i think there needs to be more requirements put more joined up working between local authorities refugee sector and employers to make that happen in a national scale because refugees are across scotland now it isn't only Glasgow and it's not going to only be Glasgow either so i think that being important it was you know we need to have national refugee integration services and standards the scottish government are committed to this we know they are but the as a result of brexit you withdraw there was asylum migration integration funds given i think it's about 15 million pounds over the last five years which the scottish government used to fund various integration projects through new scots which is welcome that funding's away now that that funding doesn't exist from january so there's a big gap sitting there but the gap isn't a drain the gap can be filled in an investment preventative way that is and that's why i say national refugee integration service and standards with work as the key thing because that being the genuine way people can start to sorry can start to get into the services that and the and rebuild the lice which is what refugees want to do more than anything else and shared the refugee label so i mean i'm aware of times and maybe i'll just go with the traffic issue if that's helpful then out so i mean yeah the illegal migration act is is one of the most obscene pieces of legislation that we've had at the grim predecessor the nationality and borders act and i mean i say obscene because the illegal migration act ends the right to have an asylum claim considered in the uk so it savers the uk state from the refugee convention which came out from the horrors of the holocaust it's saved millions of people's lives so it's a big deal what's happened there and it's a horrible thing that the uk government and the current home secretary have done so it also equally egregiously it seeks to end access for trafficking survivors to support including support that's enshrined in section nine and section ten of the human trafficking exploitation scotland act here we don't think and we've furnished the scottish government case bring them cases legal opinion we don't think this is a done deal we do think that the european convention human rights well we don't think we know the european convention human rights through its article four which is to remind of this one against slavery it's an absolute prohibition it's not a qualified prohibition within the chr it has three clear positive anti-trafficking duties that flow out of it once they have an illegal administrative framework in place well we did till the legal migration act tried to eviscerate that framework you know through the through its attempt to enter access to trafficking support rights and non-expulsion protections the second is to protect people who are identified as trafficking survivors so if a charity or police scotland or somebody identifies somebody's a presumed trafficking survivor they would at the moment put that person into a problematic the layered in home office national referral mechanism the extentification system but in so doing that person as soon as the duty to remove arrangements within the illegal migration act are commenced we expect that to be after the rewanda judgment is is announced in january then then that person will be good to be the home office official and that home office official this isn't well understood i know it's understood to be you guys but not well understood generally as that home office official doesn't have any discretion to do otherwise than to say you trafficking survivor the police world have just referred to as you're a removable person you are punted into our detention regime and we'll look to remove you according to the band and that's just the reality i'm not exaggerating that's the reality that's what the illegal migration act do to remove arrangements require home office staff to do so obviously we are saying to Scottish government we've been saying for a long time especially the legal migration act cut off your contact with the home office national referral mechanism and you established your own identification system for this crime of human rights violation of human trafficking that's one thing that we continue to think's essential but the issue around access to support rights well the second positive duty is access to support rights so the Scottish government we would say please keep that support in place we're not convinced that is ultra virus and the reason we're not convinced is how would the Scottish government be able to defend itself in court which could happen in a in a perverse way because the invidious position they've been put in by the legal migration act how would they defend themselves in court from a trafficking survivor that says look i'm a trafficking server i can see section nine of the human trafficking act i won't have access to that which is a lot of rights really good ones counseling accommodation legal support etc and if the Scottish government is you know we can't because we've been required which would be the only defence available if we were to say but we can't do that because the illegal migration act requires us not to his primary legislation then you've got article four of the European convention human rights which is a fundamental law it's not it's co equivalent to the sovereignty of the UK Parliament it's just sitting there watching this ding dong between the illegal migration act to the UK level and the Scottish government saying we want to maintain access but we can't maintain access to trafficking support rights so the reality then is that we think and we hope that there certainly will be a legal challenge at the UK level to the attempted ending of trafficking support rights within the legal migration act for all traffic and survivors including in Scotland but we would want the Scottish government if there was that legal challenge to intervene in it because otherwise they're going to be in this in videos and potentially they might end up having to be a respondent which would be really perverse and why this all matters aside from try to help some days in our view the legal migration act is a boon to organised crime right it's got it's basically saying see all these people that have come in through irregular means necessarily because there's no asylum visa to get in or been brought in through trafficking survivors we're no interested in them and it's basically pushing people to organised crime exploitation and if you've got organised crime exploitation i've been saying this to committees for such a long time then what you'll have is communities that are less safe so we need in Scotland to be really clear and brave about what we can do legally on this and part of that we would want to see us continue to support trafficking support rights that may be through other mechanisms it could be that we need to think about our vulnerable persons legislation in relation to local authority so we can provide those rights i'm only cutting off because the convener i know needs to move on but in maintain the budget lines that currently exist and use that money clearly to continue to help that group irrespective of the illegal immigration act i suppose that's what i'm trying to elicit for. We want the Scottish Government to do that and we want to do it because we think there's clear ECHR legal reasons that actually would support them to do it they've got an arguable case but also we think that it's a prevention mechanism because it's a trafficking support system that tries to get people protect people from the system of exploitation that's awaiting them if it's not there that helps the communities and the final thing sorry just to add is that the Scottish guardianship service is under huge pressure that's the independent advocacy service for unaccompanied refugee children massive increase in the last few years particularly since it became a statutory service in the first of april huge child protection issues that have been raised by that we are not we don't have the resources at the moment in the Scottish guardianship service to meet the need that way we want again we think about that what it is which is an investment as a protection factor to stop the most vulnerable people in this case unaccompanied refugee and traffic children from falling into the hands of organised crime exploitation so this thing about i'm trying to give two clear examples maintain traffic and support maintain the Scottish guardianship service adequate to meet these are investments is protection factor so people don't fall into the clutches of organized crime because otherwise that's what we'll be legislating to do thanks grim you know really interesting stuff there but i do conscious of the time and we do need to move on so i'm going to bring in James Dornan thank you thank you thank you convener this is for bill um bill your submission states that more needs to be done to ensure that the funded childcare that is available is both accessible to and inclusive of disabled children and parents can you give us a sort of clearer indication of what you think needs to be done and how the Scottish government can address this in its budget i think it's essential that when local authorities are commissioning local childcare arrangements that they need to ensure that the childcare that's available is available to disabled children and to disabled parents so you'll some of the childcare it's not about physical accessibility often it's often about having the resources that you need to deal with children who are autistic or you'll have behavioural issues learning difficulties etc to make sure that they're in a safe environment because if if it's not then the parents can't place their children there and therefore they're being denied the childcare that should be available to them is just the same as every other parent with children in that age group so there are definitely issues there even more acute and remote remote areas of scotland where the availability paid childcare is is difficult anyway but making sure that it's accessible to all the children in the area is a big issue so yeah it's essentially just making sure that the public spend is ensuring that all children and all parents can benefit from it and that disabled children and disabled parents aren't excluded from the free provision that's otherwise available so in terms of the budget and the scotland's government's role in that how do you see the the budget being able to facilitate what it is that you're you're asking for it's more that when you're spending decisions that are being made at scotland's government through a local authority level that the needs of disabled children and disabled parents are being taken into account and ensuring that before you commission a contract with a provider you are making sure that they can take all the children that might need to come through their doors and that can accommodate the needs of the parents that are bringing those children through their doors so it's not about additional spending as such it's just making sure that you're getting appropriate childcare for all the children they need it so it's more about the arrangement that's made between the providers and the local authority and you know and and scotland's government could could be asking local authorities what do they do you know to make sure that accommodations childcare accommodation is is suitable for all the children that might need it okay okay thanks for that well thanks very much i believe Jeremy Balfour wants to come in with just a very quick something i mean presumably he and adam we've had an issue recently with after-school care so breakfast care and our school for disabled people not having the appropriate support so presumably this is not just for the underfives but we have to look at the appropriate support for disabled children who are going to mainstream school but the parents require the appropriate support and presumably that needs to be financed properly as well yeah i mean i don't think we're talking about huge amounts of additional spend but you know it really is an issue you know i think scotland's government are right to be trying to improve after-school provision because again the difficulties particularly at lone parents but all parents face in juggling childcare and working and and you'll haven't to get the kid to you know to school and then having to pick them up from the childcare facility if again it's not accessible to the parent or not accessible to the child then they they're having to make sure their hours are reduced to to fit in round about the childcare that is available to them so yeah i think i think we we do need to see that i know it's not exactly always a budget issue but it's certainly something Scottish Government could be saying to local authorities you know when when you're planning to expand after school childcare it has to be accessible to disabled parents and disabled children yeah thank you thanks very much i'm now going to invite marie mcnear thank you thanks good morning panel i'll direct my questions to to bill scott that's okay what are your views on how the the social security budget is funded there's obviously an increased take-up of benefits that have transferred over to the scottish government how welcome is that this and you feel that there's a future pressure on the the scottish budget going forward well i know just myself that know that there is pressure on the scottish budget going forward the increased spend and you that scottish government is already committed to is very very welcome you know i'll i'll say it again i've said it before the 20 you know the scottish champion has been a lifeline to to many many families that have allowed them to to continue to feed and clothe and eat their children so that you know they've been able to have you know a reasonable time saved them from entering into the deepest poverty that they might have experienced otherwise and that is additional spending there will be increased take-up the other benefits i hope in the longer term the disability benefits as well because if we've got a fairer system then probably more people will access it and and receive those benefits and it essentially we have to plan for that and you know i've pointed out i think to the very end of the the written submission we made that probably scottish government is going to have to raise additional revenue to meet those spending commitments in the future it's got a you know it's got a dick facing the deficit at the moment that deficit will grow as social security spend grows but we're going back to seeing housing as an investment i see it as such you know disabled people disproportionately live in social housing because they can't afford their own homes in many cases so you know it for them you know again we're coming back to it needs to be both affordable and accessible and unless there is in the supply chain then it means that often disabled people are stuck in an appropriate housing as well but it's the same with social security if we want to have a modern decent society where everybody can take part equally we need to recognise that some people are unfairly excluded for the labour market because of discrimination because of the some of the barriers they face and therefore we need we need to make sure that they're properly looked after if they're ill or if they're disabled to the to the extent that they can't participate as fully as they might want to in the labour market so social security spending is absolutely necessary and we will have to look at the adequacy and disability benefits going forward as well. The Scottish Government as you said obviously expanded eligibility for some benefits you know as a disability payment and Scottish Cures assistance without requisite funding from the UK Government does this not put continued pressure on the Scottish Government funding this additional expenditure and we've obviously touched on it a bit can you expand a wee bit Bill? Yeah that's exactly the case you know if you slacken the eligibility criteria even a small amount then you will incur additional spending and and that is not going to be covered by the UK Government who are essentially giving us a per capita allocation of the UK spend and we have always in Scotland by the way had more disabled people always but we've had it for some time more disabled people than most other areas of the UK I think the other areas of the north east England and south Wales are on a par or slightly higher than Scotland but it's partially a legacy of you know heavy industries it's also a legacy of some factors such as MS being more prevalent in Scotland because partially related to like a sunlight and things like that but because of that we've always had a larger spend on disability payments and we just need to acknowledge that that we have got us you know a community where more people are likely to be disabled people and therefore there's always going to be slightly more spending on on disability benefits but the adequacy has also been impacted in recent years because the inflation because the other factors yes you know they tend to rise in line with the UK you know allocations but if there are less people eligible down south if there are changes to the disability benefit system down south that impacts in Scotland there are currently changes being made to the work capability assessment regime that exists that will indirectly impact on adp in Scotland I would say because they're changing some of the scores or proposing that change some of the scores or get rid of some of the descriptors from the work capability assessment and they say that they will then probably replicate that with the PIP assessment if it is replicated in the PIP assessment then far fewer people will be eligible for PIP overall and that means if we still retain the same eligibility criteria in Scotland the disparity between between here and the rest of the UK is going to grow um so you're flagging that up because I think this is part of the you know the devolution settlement said those benefits were coming to Scotland and we could more or less do with them as we please but if there are changes to you know PIP down south that impact indirectly then we're going to have a devolution settlement that isn't real because because the budget is not going to be coming to Scotland that will allow us to support disabled people to the extent that this Parliament has decided they should be supporting. Thanks very much I'm now going to invite Ross McCall back in thanks yeah back to me and back to you Gordon sorry um I'm just going to read this one um why are you concerned I think you've actually alluded to this need for more resources but why are you concerned that the Scottish Government's response to temporary accommodation task and finish group will not drive the structural change needed to tackle the housing emergency and how can the forthcoming budget decisions help to drive this structural change thank you um so for us when we talk about there being a housing emergency it we say that because it's not just one crisis it's an affordability crisis it's a it's an accessibility crisis it's a crisis for children it's a crisis of cost so there's all of these crises come together as as an emergency and the Scottish Government have and we perfectly we agree with the Scottish Government's written vision and written policies the housing to 2040 sets a clear vision um the house building target of 110 000 by by in 10 years we're disappointed there's no target for this Parliament um that was removed it was in the housing to 2040 document but it wasn't in the bute house agreement so I'm from in the chamber of ministers I mean clear there is no there is no numerical target in this Parliament and and I say that because that's where their concern arises so on paper we have a vision that's positive it's about rights it's about supply it's about inclusion and inaccessibility but when turned into when that's turned into action when it's turned into into budget decisions when it's turned into policy decisions we're just not seeing the the cut through so when we say there's we're concerned that the the response to task and finish group isn't going to drive structural change it's not driving structural change because we don't know how many homes are going to be built this year we don't know how whether that's linked to to an an assessment of need we don't know whether the purpose of that is to is it to reduce temporary accommodation is it to meet the housing needs of the country because those are those are depending what destination you set you have different policy choices in terms of what you do there are important mitigations that the Scottish Government do and should continue to do in the budget we are the so-called bedroom tax or work in the work in the social welfare fund and other things that are important in terms of meeting the problem right now if you get a harm reduction model if you like but the structural change that will reduce poverty will tackle child poverty in this country is about building more social homes and at this point in time we simply don't know what the Scottish Government expect to get for the £3.5 billion that they've put in the budget if we did know that if there was a clear express vision then we have more confidence being able to say that they're going to talk they're going to address the structural problems that make sense thank you thank you i'm just conscious that we're kind of running over time but if just to remind everyone to be as as concise as possible so and on that i'm going to ask i think i'm going to ask Graham on this one are you concerned about unequal impact of the Scottish Government policies and budget decisions on protected group particularly on those from like ethnic minorities and if so how can we actually the well how can the situation be improved because yeah thanks one of the reasons we associated ourselves with michelle or scotland's written evidence is you know that there is particular ethnic minority groups who have particular housing needs in terms of you know numbers and such like so we think that needs to translate itself into you know the capital spend on social housing so that you know what we can what we can do is is provide homes that can be homes for people going back to what was saying that you know we will go around as a home is a basis for people then to build a new life which is the second part of what being a refugee is the first is get out the situation and and the second is which is often not remembered as just to rebuild your life somewhere because it's not safe to return to where we've come from so we think that poverty i mean we've consistently said to Scottish Government about asylum poverty and we said to this committee actually and very much we welcomed that you articulated to the Scottish Government in your report last year you know essentially the kind of recommendations that we shared around a Scottish social inclusion of refugees but the one that we really emphasised was poverty and we were grateful to the committee to do that and recently a child poverty summit we spoke again with the Cabinet Secretary for Social Justice on this but we haven't seen that translate at all into Scottish Government policy making the fact that you know we've got some of the severest forms of poverty affecting children in Scotland to it in the asylum system and we're not talking about big numbers here but the impact is is the most severest you could imagine now it stems from the UK government's legislation is brutal as i was saying in open remarks like rampant social insecurity that's meted out to people in the asylum system including kids but we still haven't seen a directive or a circular or something that can come from Scottish Government that says to local authorities please put asylum and refugee child poverty into your annual requirement for your local child poverty action plans that they in health boards have that needs to change look through we just need to get that in because one things i didn't say is you know the asylum's are a national issue now so you know there's about we estimate by Christmas up to about 25 local authorities in Scotland will have people in the asylum process glasgo is the one that most children are but most of them will be in ex hotels institutional accommodation the £1 40 a day etc most of them will ultimately get refugee status and for those who don't have family yet they will exercise rightly their family reunion rights into all this is foreseeable this is you know the world that we're moving into this year and next year is going to be more decisions thankfully in the asylum system but that doesn't need to be a drain it can be an investment and that's one of the things we want to get across to the committee is to think about refugee integration as an investment as one centred on work and people rebuild their lives genuinely in Scotland not the new scott strategy we've had for the last five or 10 years because that's not cutting through into scottish government policy making so that needs to change but also that it's more ambitious and what it wants to achieve and centres around work so we've not really seen that level of ambition within the scottish government thinking so we don't think they're against this but we just try to say to them and we'd invite the committee to do this as well as be pleased more ambitious in relation to addressing what will be unequal impacts on refugee newly granted refugees and things like homelessness unless you start to think of them as what they actually are which is as people who want to shed the refugee label want to work, have skills, will work, will contribute so when we looked at the scottish government stuff in the Warm Ukraine report that it recently published and we could see there was three million pounds in tax revenues that were going to come from if people got the real living wage for people who came from Ukraine it's the same with asylum you know people are desperate to work like anybody else as they know better than anybody it's a way to rebuild their lives so I suppose it's not it's about unless that level of ambition and investment-based approach is taken in relation to refugee integration as a policy objective in Scotland then those unequal impacts will persist because basically refugees won't be fought about within the policy making process including structural ones like the budget process so we really want to see that level of ambition it's a win-win situation they were going to have a lot more people that are there to to basically contribute and be part genuinely of whatever it is that's in Scotland because you know the numbers are increasing in Scotland but the decision making is also increasing but the manner in which it's been done by the home offices in their own image and interests and but we don't need to respond to it in that way we can respond to it in a much more substantive way which centres on genuine refugee integration based around work and access to services and people being continue to be the self-reliant people they have been and had to be. Okay thanks Graham and I know that the committee is going to do a small inquiry into asylum seekers and refugees as part of our work programme so I'm keen to invite you along back again once that's underway so thank you and I'm just going to move on quickly and bring in Katie Clark thank you. Do any of the witnesses think there have been any improvements in the transparency of the budget or do they have any specific suggestions as to how it could be improved? I think there have been limited improvements and they are limited. They're still almost opaque you know even to policy professionals so what an ordinary member of the public can make of them I don't know you know I think it's very very difficult to identify you know within very large sums sometimes you know what exactly is this being spent on what what what are we getting out of this sorry saying and therefore to to prioritise and if you want genuine involvement of service recipients you know the ordinary community members of Scotland in in this process it has to be made much lesser opaque than it currently is. I mean you know even identifying this is definitely new spend rather than you know re-announced spend would be a big step forward and this is where there's definitely been a cut made and you know that so that we can see that we can see the moving parts at least you know okay health spending is largely staying the same what there's been a cut to this part health spend and it's being reprioritised to over that okay we get that now whereas at the moment as you're looking at and you're going well x billion we spent last year x billion has been spent this year I don't know you know what is happening so I do think it needs to be made less opaque but certainly as I say we actually run the people led policy panel involved in social care policy making with Scottish Government officials local authorities et cetera we need to have you know that sort of involvement in the budget I think as well and to do that yeah you need you need to make it intelligible with ordinary people thank you which I am now going to invite Jeremy back in thanks yeah thank you I'll maybe start with Gordon because he's had to go at this already and it probably the impossible question is how should the Scottish Government involve a public more and setting the overall priorities for spending and what scope is there for genuinely meaningful public engagement in that on the assumption that as you said it's very difficult for people to know the different lines on words it I think there are there's a big opportunity actually on the horizon where I think if we grab it we could we could change the level of engagement in not just budget setting but understanding how the priorities of government translate into action and activity in communities. Scottish Government applying to legislate incorporation of human rights you know the remaining treaties it would be you know that we'll only realise that vision if there's an approach to human rights based budgeting as part of that I think we're at the foothills of that just now I think from the Scottish Government's perspective been able to have consistency of budget headlines more detail below the below those kind of broad areas then you can start a process where people sort of say right you know as Bill says that's where that jigsaw piece goes I can start to start to understand that so it has to be baked into the processes it can't just be at the time when the budget's published we get we get a few people in because then it then it weeks of tokenism and it and it and there's no meaningful engagement doing it over a period of time doing it with what it's participatory panels whether it's sector sector based but really having a commitment to saying we're going to we're going to use the resources we have as a nation to uphold people's human human rights in the broadest sense across all all protected characteristics and beyond that starts to give a framework for how you can involve people in the decisions about where money goes in their community. I'm very conscious of time but I don't know how to get one line from either Bill or from Graham but I have to be one line. I think you know everything's going to be human right impact assessed after the incorporation things are already a quality impact assessed but the problem is a lot of the quality impact assessments that take place are carried out by people who have no insight into what the needs of the various characteristic groups are and therefore they often say oh it's not going to have an impact you need to begin to involve those people it will impact on in equality impact and human right impact assessments and that is a long-term policy process rather than as as Gordon said you're a one-off bring them in for the budget etc. So I think we need to get much better at involving people, disabled people, single parents, black and minority ethnic people or asylum seekers etc in the policies that are going to impact on their lives. I echo what Gordon and Bill said it's just to ask I think there needs to be a promise made and needs to be firstly worked through as a promise but a promise made to people with lived experiences as the current term is getting used to say that we are going to give whatever the promise arrives at we're going to give more weight to your evidence because when we've kind of grappled with the kind of lived experience agenda you know we're not sure about that term it'd be powerful honestly and it's like but I think it's in a certain another layer basically of complexity when it's just like we want to just understand what life's like for people and we want to privilege that but not in a charitable way but in a way that recognises what it is they're sharing which is insights at people who are asking often the question don't have and I suppose it would need to be a clear promise that's given and it shouldn't be done cheaply it should be done after a thought through process so it's sincere which says this is the way it will give to this evidence I think it just needs that clarity so that you can start to work through this and that will make it uncomfortable for people in middle class and other class and you know professions and people who have been accustomed and we should in made frankly should be comfortable be dealing with that discomfort unless there's that that's one of the things we look at unless there's that then then it is going to be well intentioned but it could fall into tokenism so I think it needs to be by people in positions of power much more sincerely fraught through and honest about what we can actually promise and then give that promise. Okay thanks Graeme okay and lastly I'm going to bring in James Dornan. Thank you. Thank you convener. Just quickly and I'll start the bell and if anybody else wants to come in on it what does the Scottish Government need to do in order to take a human rights approach to the 24-25 budget? I think I probably already outlined it James. I do genuinely think that you need to involve those at the sharp end in terms of those budget decisions in the process but from way back from even pre-budget scrutiny they need to be involved throughout and policy development as well as the final decisions so it does take investment and I agree with Graeme you know it is sometimes uncomfortable for us to hear truths being told back to us about well you say more money should be put into that but that's more money for your organisation rather than more money that actually directly benefits us and we need to hear that sometimes and realise you know yeah you know sometimes it needs to go into those directly to people rather than through conduits like ourselves in the third sector. Thanks Bill. Does Graeme or Gordon have any brief comments you'd like to make us? Couldn't say it any better. Very quickly. No. Okay thanks very much James. So that concludes our budget scrutiny panel and I want to thank all the witnesses here today for your contributions it's been really interesting so thank you and the committee will consider a draft pre-budget report our next meeting on the 26 of October so that concludes our public business. We will now move into private to consider the remaining items on the agenda. Thank you very much.