 On new Hello everybody if it's Wednesday, it's Warhammer and that means it's time for another episode of Warhammer weekly Joining me as always is my co-host who doesn't pay attention to what I'm saying. I'm hitting start. It's Tom. What's up, buddy? How you doing? It's fine. It's fine. Hello friends. How are you? I'm having a wonderful evening I hope your evening is going well as well. Yeah, absolutely Sorry, we're late everybody It's Tom's fault. I mean you tell you it was a computer problem, but you know come on It it was it was my fault for the first four minutes and then the next four minutes was Vince talking about magic And I'm not lying that I wasn't four minutes, and I was letting you get ready. It's fine You were still going on about other things. Anyways Let's get into it. We'll get straight into the show Not a lot of news tonight. No, we have a rumor engine. Yeah We do it's a little how about that how about that rumor engine? Yet again, it's a 40k thing actually what I want to talk about with the rumor engine Tom It's not anything to do with this rumor engine. Okay. Yeah, like whatever. It's a stupid 40k thing for next year's 10th edition release or whatever. That's what they're all gonna be for like three out of four of them Are gonna be that going forward, right? Um So the here's my here's my question. Okay What happened to the advent calendar this year? What happened calendar? Exactly Exactly, I think you're the only person that was thinking about that Well, that was it's been a thing the past couple years The past many years they do this like 24 days of rumors. Yeah Yeah, and yet here we are It's obviously December 7th. We're well into theoretical advent calendar time and Nothing nothing so No, it is not Martin So the You know, I I'm just kind of surprised smile dancer Also, even in black and white you can tell that that outer ring is metallic Because you can like see the giant fat awful edge highlights that someone was forced to paint with that awful metallic paint So there you go But there's a little little some one small other news item Hmm There's actually more than that, but it's fine. We'll cover those the other small news item that Vince is referencing is the model of the year Of which the demon prince is going to win Which you really think so I do and there here's the reason why It's the only AOS model that AOS folks will vote for and between that and the fact it actually has broad appeal and chaos For in 40k I think that like and anybody that's coming in from total war because the Modifiable demon prince is the big thing for total war three. Like I don't know how it doesn't pull all those Like I like that's you all of it like when you look at because he's ugly I mean, I don't that's it man. I don't know what else to tell you He's an ugly model like that is to say his face is goofball in the image now. There are good faces in the box Okay, sure. Yeah. Yeah, but homie this ain't it These are that like that base face is bad it's bad face Yeah, no, that's fair. That's fair. I mean, I don't know maybe Maybe the avatar of Kane like it just it feels like everything is so niche. Otherwise, like there's no other reliable AOS models here, right? And so not that AOS has ever really determined who the win and winner is here anyways But that's why I'm saying that it would have to be something that brought that I think that would cross genres Which would be the demon sure so that's my suspicion It's that hecaton land fortress homie because That would be the thing in September the hecaton land fortress is the large vehicle of the leagues of OTAN space It just looks like a green round thing. It looks like the TMNT van is what it looks like maybe maybe and That is awesome. So there you go You're out of your mind, that's fine Um, I the new BCP launched the new edition of that launched I think this week. That's the thing that just happened The event event wise Brew hammer was sign-ups went live Saturday and neither of us got in so yeah, correct I was like, you know, I set my alarm. I had reminders, but I was like, I woke up a little late And I was like, I'll get myself ready. I'll still be able to do it by like 10 30 Nope, nope So maybe we're not doing brew hammer, I guess that's a shame. It's a shame to miss a tournament right here in town But hey, here we are. It's not like I'm bad. I'm super glad they sold out. I'm on the wait list I don't know if you are but I definitely am. Yeah, I need to mail them. So yeah, yeah do that Um Yeah, what else? I think that's it probably Yeah, the only thing while they're the only other thing worth maybe mentioning is that today we got two new aos war scrolls for two new like underworlds war bands namely the Velmorne the skeletons angry pointy skeleton man Yeah King Moorlach Velmorne and we also got it for Saracar Blackwing, which is the chaos dudes, right the undivided dark oath cast dudes basically the Narl spirit box And The I'll start out with the the I don't have these scrolls downloaded. So I'm sorry everybody The The king Moorlach Velmorne, you know most awesome model he could he could be a contender by the way that guy is incredible Just saying that whole set is incredible Um, yeah, they're not good. So it's fine It's it's they're 220 points. They're overpriced for for five dudes Um Checked out their soul light grave lords, which is cool and they're graveyard guys, you know, so I mean I'm excited about that So sure, but I mean they're just like they're fine. It's not worth taking for 220 points There are so many better things you would take in the soul light grave lords army than these five guys Because he's basically a white king on foot You mean rather than like the six guys for 280 points that are five zombies and a No, wizard I mean, he's not a wizard Uh king Moorlach is I mean, he's just a white king. He's a foot white king. Like he has a decent enough profile It's okay. He has a standard like storm cast profile, you know, five attacks three threes Make one two damage on a three up save It's and then his guys are just like four idiots with white blades of various kinds Yeah, um now Uh saracar blackwing, okay Um, yeah Is a wizard And with him you obviously which warband is this for this is the other part of the gnarled spirit box So this is the this is the chaos shaman dude along with the three Chaos dark oathy looking people. They're all undivided dark oath. Okay, so, um The notably uh, he does not have eye of the gods. Not that I care that much, but it's a shame. Sure. Sure Uh So the both of these guys have the dark oath thing Where both of these units where if they complete their oath they get a five up ward for the rest of the game Which is cool. That's fine. But I mean, they're just guys on a five up save normally So it's not like they're that hard to kill. Um, we're not talking about a tremendous amount of wounds here It's 11 wounds total for the unit Uh, the interesting thing about him Uh Is that uh Is that he can go into reserve, okay That's helpful Yes, and interestingly He can come into the battlefield Within seven inches if he's coming in near a wounded unit Like at the seven inch line instead of the nine inch line I like that. That's not terrible. No, I mean, he's just a A spellcaster, right? Um, but he could his boys go with him So it's it's the four of them can set up at the seven inch line. They both have the same ambush rule Right. And if and if people aren't sitting in the dead center of an objective, you could make it from Yeah, sure. Yeah, or you can even charge in for that matter Yeah, I mean on the seven inch line like they're okay ish in combat the the group of dudes There's you know, they're they're okay ish if you could catch out a hero or something. That's fine He has a perfectly fine. Okay spell So sure it does some mortal wounds, but the what was interesting to What was interesting to me about the the chaos guys was the seven inch setup like that's an unusual thing Yeah, right. Yeah. Yeah, it's just it's a design decision. That's not normally employed. Yeah, so that's kind of cool um Yep, so I see mani Uh, pinheiro in the chat is a big fan of the the velmor and guys. I don't see it man But hey I I believe you if you like them. That's cool. I'm not against it. I just don't think it's like I'm already sus on grave guard as it is Uh, so a unit that's like well, I mean 10 great generally and that 10 grave guard can do work like that's just true Sure, sure if they can get there and not die. Yes, indeed indeed. We've got hopefully less than a month before they're maybe playable. Yes Uh, we'll see Right, sure. Um in the current world there. They are very rough. Uh, not because they're not great They're like offensive powerhouses. They're they're fantastic. I really agree. They can do work They're great. It's just they're another one of those units that has been like tragically Shattered by the current season. It's no fault of the grave guard. They're perfectly fine design It's the fault of like bounty hunters in the current season. So but Yep uh Anyway, cool Uh, I think that's all our news. Hey, there you go. There was more than we thought. How about that, huh? All right, so let's do uh some pick of the week tom Would you like to share with everybody? So I have a pretty big hobby project. I'm working on right now. Yeah, you do And uh, it led me to uh friend of the channel ninjans. Oh, yes Uh, I'm glad you I'm glad you're using that video. It's good, right? 120 I mean So ninjans does 120 zombies in in 24 hours. Yep And it's fine Uh, it uses a lot of techniques like I'm just I'm not going to use oil paints Like I appreciate what you had to say ninjans. It's great. I'm not going to use oil paints. That's fine Um, which is like one of his big secrets to doing a lot of work quick Um, yeah, I'm saying he's already beat you as far as speed. So he must be on uh, no I'm still approaching the 24 hour mark. I'm really close and I'm almost done Um, uh, and which leads me to my video. I'm actually gonna spruke is not the zombie video from a year ago Okay, um, but a couple months ago ninjans did a video on um on slap chop 2.0 And so he Took robb's challenge of slap chop added it like a couple more steps And called it 2.0. It's great worth watching. Um, and the reality is is i'm using a modified form of that And it's great. Um, and it's also very very fast Um, and it gets a lot of work done and puts a lot of color on the models isn't a super And so for our community, I thought I would recommend it. Um, that said man, like I just left it running the reason why I discovered that video by the way Was I put on the zombie video and then I just kind of left it running and it just started like running through his playlist sure and Like I've watched some of the ninjans videos for but jesus christ to see funny He really is i'm telling you this john man Like I I could literally just watch you all day and in fact I did as I did 20 plus hours of zombie painting. Um Or when you were down here and hanging out with us last time they all came over and you painted like a million Night haunt. Yes that too Indeed that time too. Um, and so, uh Like if you guys aren't familiar with ninjans channel, like I'd recommend that the slap chop 2.0 like check it out It's amazing. It's it's funny. He just did a review of dunkin's paints Which are basically the good gw paints with better metals and old washes um, uh Just find like go through his channel check out some videos because there's just a bunch of really good videos on there Absolutely. Yeah, john's great Uh, he'll be here tomorrow. So it'll be a good time. Uh getting ready for vinny con three uh final blood So The my pick of the week Is going to be for cult of paint um Cult of paint did a really nice video on some of the new chaos guys And about and I love this he actually did like two videos on this And it's kind of about like not being happy and then finding a color scheme So i'm gonna link the second one, but it's really good. Um, I just really liked the way that they Talked about the challenges often that we have it's something I talked about recently on the channel in a video was picking a color scheme and you know, this is Exploring a lot of the same area and talking about Challenges and failures and stuff like that. I just I really dug it. Um, and obviously, you know, henry and andy are both awesome people So, um, yeah, I'll link that video down below. So check that out All right, very good Uh, let's talk about some hobby time Tom, you already kind of mentioned it, but uh, what do you what you've been working on? Uh, I have 105 zombies on my table Mm-hmm. You're just shy of 120 Uh, yeah, I don't need 120. I just need 105 100 plus that's dumb warband Um, the zombie warband because that's what we're going for here. Um And uh, I'm getting close I'm getting close And uh, I close on my new house on friday So I really need to get this done Before that happens because I have more talk tick tock I have I have more painting of a much larger scale that needs to be done. Um And so I'll be hobbying and air rushing this weekend likely as well Um Yeah, it's gonna be terrible. It's gonna be fun, but terrible So, yeah Awesome. Well, congratulations. I hope you have you're gonna have a horrible time. Um, but it'll be good in about two months Exactly and that's exactly what we're at Uh, all right, uh for myself. Guess what folks? He's back again. Everybody's a little friend. Here he is Uh, but he's almost done Uh This has taken a lot of work because this is so I now have to do the whole unit like this There's more of these dudes because this is for golden demon And this is the most Love and care and attention. I have ever put into a single model where I am just like unbelievably finicky and just trying to paint everything completely perfectly And I double check all my work. I got to get out the the sexy gogs And get out like to double check all my work and every detail and everything like that And I have decided I do not enjoy painting like this It's horrible Wow, wow, tell me more about that Yeah, I mean ultimately it's this is the challenge golden demon is a A challenge of Uh replication Of well no of execution of technical execution like there's lots of different styles you can employ It's not like you just have to paint in every metal style or something. That's not sure But you do and they do favor and they do value A high level of technical execution everything being extremely clean and perfect down to like the smallest details, right In other words, every millimeter of the model is intentional Yep And I'll finish this unit like I'm happy with how these guys are coming out like and I can replicate the the scheme Obviously like I started with just this one guy anytime. I'm doing a unit for golden demon. I paint One model at a time. I never do the whole unit but It's exhausting and not very fun is is the problem that comes down to like I'd rather be more creative and sort of free flowing with it And refine and and have certain small technical mistakes. It's just the nature of my style like I don't have the I don't have the interest to be that Perfect with with my execution. I don't I don't find it compelling. I guess is the short answer Like I can do it. I did it here. It's fine. Yeah it's just It's just kind of boring is really what it comes down to Um, I find it much harder to like be in the zone because I don't feel like I'm I don't feel like it's not only a mix of like progress, but I don't feel like I'm I'm pushing myself in the same way. I normally would but anyway, I think it'll be a cool unit So I'm excited about that and these guys are awesome models Do you feel like it's because it's less about exploration and more about perfection Probably probably to some degree and you know, I have an extreme bias for the new and the novel right, right, um So, yeah, probably I think that's probably some of it. Yeah, but um Uh, I mean richard, it's always possible. You know hit me up with the information Um, but you know, it's it's been fun and and uh I I guess overall like it's it has been an interesting challenge is what I'll say So, um, not that I have it painted plenty of times for golden demon before I've just never like invested even before when I invested tons of time into models I never went at it like this with my current like eyes and how I currently look at things, you know Yeah, yeah, so anyways um Yeah, it's there'll be a video coming out about a part of this at some point in the future, um And it's funny like how much I can film To put in a video in a week is like nothing It's nothing because this guy's taken just I I don't even know how many hours I'm into this like one dude But it's a lot It's so many at this point like this will end up being a 400 500 hour unit something like that You're gonna get through like one and a half guys and be like nah wasn't worth it No, I mean even if I like well if I had one dude and he was just really good It's like hey welcome welcome to the table single figure entry. What's up, buddy? But like once I get to two done You get to three that's just it like then you're just you don't round third and be like nah When you can see the finish line the adrenaline takes over okay, and you know you get there so And really this is like This and one of the thing are the last two things i'm working on for golden demon, and I've got like four months, so It's fine All right, cool Uh, so that's my hobby time. Hopefully I'll have something like actually interesting to show soon I mean, I'm going to work on something else this weekend. So Uh, it is the yes, I am painting the a unit of these guys the ogroid pherodons Yeah Yes, exactly There he goes So with a little bit of slanesh coloration, of course Uh, you're not far off noops. You're not far off. Okay Cool. Well, that was fast and easy. So uh with that let's talk about tonight's topic Tonight's topic tom But boom As soon as it wants to actually render the powerpoint there we go What? Is your favorite color also What makes a good battle tome? What makes a good battle tome turn bad? Uh, so I've wanted to talk about this for a while And this is going to be like as far as slides go. This is pretty simple Because really what I want to do here is have a discussion Uh about this and I'm interested to see what the Audience thinks as well Because when you use an amorphous normative term like good You you are also like i tom a student Of language and argumentation and you know how challenging it is to use a word like good precisely right Because such words Have an unbelievable amount of like Nuance to them right and uh They can be defined different ways for different people blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah However, what interests me about it is that uh Not only is it something that could have many anomeria definitions But it's something we all say Right, that's the difference between Sort of philosophical speech or argumentation or academic understanding of things and like the way we all just walk around talking and existing every day Right, this is why academia what you've chosen to pursue is ultimately a flawed path because it doesn't actually adhere to reality so the The challenge here is we all walk around saying this is a good tone. That's a bad tone Like we all say that or some variation of that. This is a good model. That's a bad model This is a good rule. That's a bad rule. This is a good war scroll. That's a bad war scroll We use these terms we think like we're saying something Right So what the heck are we saying? right And so I want to understand that what are we what are we saying? We say that's a good battle tone because we say it all the time on this channel we do And I've got some pretty strong opinions about which ones are good and which ones are bad And we're gonna do the sorting tonight by the way. We're putting on the sorting hat and uh And people are gonna go Into those two buckets They're either gonna be bad or good. There's no middles I want to point out we have moved from the four quadrant like new ones graded Scale to like black and white with the show correct Okay, correct We're gonna this we're going weekly planet style right sure where it's like best movie ever worst movie ever. That's it. Yep Okay, so You talking about kruygers again, manny. All right, that's cool. They're cool. Everybody likes kruygers um All right, let's let's start out with some things that we might be talking about tom shall we sure Okay, so when we talk about good tomes We have to say first off. I'm just gonna lay this out. It's like blanket Is that if we're gonna try to get at any kind of like If we're gonna try to get any sort of objective I'm gonna hint around that word understanding of this and we've got to come to I guess some kind of definition But at the same time we also have to admit uh that People will all define this differently for themselves and just because Just because we sort a thing into good or bad doesn't mean that somebody isn't going to love it Have a good time with it. I think it's a good book. Enjoy it. Enjoy playing it Like There are people in the world tom who think that ko book that's out right now is good That's unfortunate for them, but they exist I think they're lunatics like certifiable Right, but they exist Yep uh so What actually matters here So let's let's let's say i'm in a couple of these. I want to get your take on them So tom does the overall power of the book matter Into whether or not this is a good good book Yeah, I think so. I think so And what I mean by that is like if it's way Like I don't think it's a primary determining factor But I think that it is like if it is way out of whack Like if it is way on either scale of over the top or way under Under like almost unplayable competitively. I think that that does matter In my opinion, so if it's like um if what you're saying is is that there's a sort of band Where if you pass outside of you can't be good. It doesn't It doesn't equal good by hitting that band But it does it is necessary but not sufficient to exist within that band Yeah, correct. It is a it is like the sat's it is a limiter Like it will like it is not determinative of anything But it will rule you out Sure, if you go out about if you don't hit a certain l set score You're not getting into the t14 like that's it right and and and and it's actually no judgment of your intelligence other than Then it is simply uh one uh one evaluation Among many that that thins the herd Okay, all right fair enough. So it's it's it's like a it's like a sieve Right, we're just okay cool. Yeah I can hit it because I because there can be the best book Best book in the world. Yep But if it's just over the top and it's no fun to play against then playing it isn't going to be fun Because no one's going to want to play you Okay Yep, and likewise Um, if you sit down and you've lost the game before you it's even started That's not going to be fun for anybody like even timmy's like to smash things. There's none of that happen. Sure Yeah All right So Here's another one that we could use. Here's another perhaps either sure variability of the lists like how many different lists Of that are interesting compelling competitive. Maybe but you know playable Right, can I build out of this and and some of these are going to be linear some of them might be more modular whatever whatever I don't care But right, but it's like and we could define lists in lots of different ways. This is my ambush list This is my you know straightforward melee list. This is my board swamp list like whatever. Okay I don't I don't care how you're defining it. It's just there's there's different builds If you will of the thing Right that it that it facilitates that Yeah How much does that matter? I think it is also important to me like if I'm going to say that So for me if I'm going to say a book is good It is not Like mono dimensional Yeah, like and I think that that's part of the problem with the ko book is that there are no other builds Then skirmishy ship built Well, this has been one of your complaints since the beginning with that book Right is that like I just don't have any other play styles Like technically the fire slayer Barak thuring list could be a variable build, but even that Like it's not really an alternate play style. Like it it isn't it isn't. Um, you're just diluting. Yeah. Anyways, um Yeah, so for me variability then there needs to be some degree of variability present Yeah, I find a lot of ways sure sure absolutely I think this one does matter quite a bit because I think a monosyllabic book is Dangerous not just because they you get sort of spammy type lists sometimes with monosyllabic books that that can often happen But they don't always have to be Uh, you mentioned ko and that's not really a spam book. It's just kind of a It's just kind of this is the obvious road right and I think it matters as well because A book needs to have sort of a discoverability to it I think to to hold up over time over the lifespan of the thing you want to be able to maybe Try different units out in different combinations. Like part of the fun of this game Is the list building now people value that differently, of course, and that's fine All right, but I think it's a rare player that would just be like That would just say give me a single list that would be happier Okay, if the book came with one pre-printed list of 2000 points and this is what you could play Yeah, this is it. Yeah Right. This is the only way to play this thing I I think that would just fly in the face of of everything we like about not only age of sigmar But just war gaming in general Yeah, yeah, I mean, so let me can I jump in on the comments real quick. Hades Mentioned said I don't think every every army needs every option. I don't think that ko should have a real melee ample For instance, I agree. I don't think so either, but that's not what we're talking about. I'm not talking about every Battlefield function fulfilled. We're talking about a variability of lists Yeah, and we're talking about and so instead of unit play we're talking about army play style And one of the problems here is that ko has one army play style. There isn't another play style, but skirmish shoot Like there is no gunline, which is a really funny statement to say but in ko there's no gunline In the traditional castling gunline sense that doesn't exist Um Or there's no strategy to win there because all the ranges are way too short to actually do what you need to do With that that standard strategy And so you have one option one play style when you play that army um because Of ranges of weapons and mobility and all that other stuff Um, and you know like sure there may not be an anvil in that army But there's also no melee hammers either Like so you don't have an option. Sure. Yeah. Yeah, it's it's totally agreed on the not every army should have every play style We've talked about that a lot, but you should have more than one Right, that's that's the ultimate point. And so again, it feels like there's some kind of of balance here and It occurs to me That all three Psychographic profiles Take some value in the variability of lists, right? Timmy likes different experiences likes And experiencing something new or different or or interesting And if it's the same list every time and that's all it is eventually timmy's going to get theoretically bored with that thing Johnny is an innovator and loves list building itself. The very act of it is is compelling Right and spike wants the list to be able to morph and adapt to stay competitive With the changing meta and other book releases and so on and so forth Right. Yeah So when you have some mix of different ways you can play and again Broadly construed is the best way to think of this Right like here's here's my sort of Board swamp I mean, this is one thing that that gets Ironically sort of has in its favor. They have a huge variability of lists Now we can talk about the power of the book and the balance of the book and all that, right? But you can go for a board swamp flood gets everywhere build or you can have a pretty elite Trogoth build right So like there's the point or some mix of there in between Yeah Now they might all be melee lists or mostly melee. I guess you'd have some shooters or something in there But it still feels like variability to the play style and to the list you're building to the units you're including And to ultimately what your path to victory is Okay, right Uh All right, let me propose another one for you. Tom the balance of the book specifically We can split this into the internal balance and the external balance All right, but let's start with internal How much does the internal balance of the book matter? I mean to me it matters because this this has to do about the variability if if Um, the internal balance is skewed all one direction where you only use one unit or two units Then then there's gonna be no variability of list building Okay Well, I mean I think of something like uh, let's talk about maybe like stormcast Right, this is the interesting one to bring up here with the internal balance Because there actually has been quite a few different stormcast lists since that book came out Um, lots of different units have seen play Now still the total units that see regular play Is low compared to the overall number of scrolls in the book but is Literally double what many books see played as far as just raw count number of scrolls Because they have so many Right, they have 79 scrolls And if 30 of those see play regularly, which is you know in the space of the the thing that sees regular play You obviously don't have 30 different units in any one list. So that means there is quite a lot of variability here But the internal balance is crap because that means 40 war scrolls are basically in the trash Right and just never considered in trap units and bad for new players and makes it hard for them to understand Why it's good or bad and so on and so forth Right So I think this one's a real tough one because I think it matters internal balance specifically Right, I think it matters a lot Because the worst thing that you ever run into as a player as a fan of an army Is when a unit that you really enjoy or a model you really enjoy however you want to think about it Sucks So it's funny. Uh, I was just having a conversation with some folks online this week about I think it was yesterday about doom fire warlocks. Mm-hmm the the The perennial uncared for sort of stepchild of the of the of an otherwise Uh, pretty internally balanced force Right. So so the in kind of the running joke was, you know, some folks were painting him up and I and I made a comment Uh, they're like, yeah, you know hoping for someday with better stocks and I was like, yeah, I painted up 10 in 2019 Because that's why I was hoping that too Sure. And so now we just ride on diamond hands, you know to the moon We just wait Sure, right. Yeah, right. Uh, and Man, I hope someday they're good It's it's a hope. It's a good point. I think what this I think you if you have a book With really bad internal balance, especially if there's one with a limited ish number of war scrolls Let's say 20 ish war scrolls Sure, you're in a lot of trouble That's bad. Yeah, because that's going to go and hit everything else It's going to encourage more spam. It's going to reduce the variability of lists, right? And and just a lot of things go off kilter at that point. I almost think this is like a root issue. This is another I think this is another sieve Being within a certain span of internal balance Is another one of these necessary but not sufficient things like it doesn't make it good on its own But it's really important So here's a funny thing Haiti said but I don't understand on their own doomfires are actually a really good unit And I would say yeah, that's true But the ecosystem they swim in right and this is why this matters, right? Is when you're actually comparing them to everything else and how everything else takes buffs and how the rest of that army functions They're not Comparatively a good unit. So this is where internal balance really matters Yeah Yeah, so It's interesting to me because Of examples like Like stormcast Yeah where It feels like they're sort of enough. I'm not sure I'm gonna call call stormcast a good book or not. I'm not I'm not spoiling anything here I'm just saying like I'm not sure I disqualify it based on that alone I think that makes it very bad for new players, which is dumb Because it's supposed to be the new the new player Book Yeah, there's a difference between this being bad for new players and being a bad book Sure, sure. Absolutely. My point is just like it Even though the internal balance is is crap by most measures i.e 40 scrolls out of 79 or whatever are bad, right? Okay, just like straight up not getting used. Yep Uh, I'm not sure that would disqualify the book because it's like there's a book and a half of decently internally balanced scrolls over here And as long as you have enough experience to sort of separate the the two piles Yeah, you might be able to have fun with it, right? Or you might have like a great time playing a bunch of strong cast Right and using different lists right, right So it can in that case just because of the weird nature of it. It sort of meets that I wonder if cities might not be in the same exact boat But it's interesting. All right, okay Let's talk about my favorite word Very similar to tom. You knew I wasn't going to do a presentation without the word very similar to dinner Sure, how much it feels like the army in in in question Yeah, signa said it perfectly by the end storm cast bad by percentage good by actual quantity. Yeah, exactly Okay, how much it feels like the army in question How much does this matter like Easy example. Let's make this real for everybody. Okay Old nergal tome versus 3.0 nergal tome Old nergal tome didn't really feel a ton like nergal It was weird How it sort of played in this gamey fashion. It didn't Really have many mechanics that melt it made it feel very nergly It was like one of the fastest books in the meta for no apparent reason Uh, whereas new nergal battle tome very nergly Disgustingly resilient disease points slow, but good in the attrition war like no kind of no matter which Lens Or fast that you choose to to spin this rotten gem and look at it through it. It's like you see Nergal, right Sure. So how much does that matter? You know, it's funny, uh, I I'm gonna say it doesn't matter that much Okay And the reason why I say that it's because as long as people know what they're getting themselves into Mm-hmm, and they understand the play style. I don't think it's the end of the world Yeah Like some armies certainly do versatility better like I think about Um idk for example, you know like what they're supposed to be doing and how the rules play Man, that is a banger. I think about nergal. It's the same type of thing corn Sure On the other hand. Yep is not that thing Nope Um, and yet some people really like it sure But are we gonna call it a good book? That is the question we'll have to answer. Yeah, and I and I Um Yeah, I don't know is the answer. I don't know I I think if it is a factor, it's less of a factor for me Okay, okay Yeah, I mean I I'm not trying to I'm not trying to shit on top-down design Sure, right But just simply acknowledge that At the end of the day if I know what it is that I'm playing It's just not as big of a deal If it's playing how I'm expecting it to not necessarily how how well the rules team has written rules to match the law Okay Here's what I'll say. I think for me And I I I feel like I'm probably in the camp with most players But I'm interested to see what the audience thinks Sure I think this one matters a lot Okay, and and the reason I say that is because ultimately I think We get invested in an army Because of a vibe Like we might we might search our brains for reasons why we play a particular army We might say it's the models or it's the rules or it's the lore or it's something I just think that Like the new I think cast nights are like the coolest models ever and so I you know I'm gonna run a whole army of them or whatever, right? Yep, but I I think that actually all we do is vibe with an army All right, okay. I really think it's just like amorphous subconscious vibes Like I can't explain to you really truthfully I I do not have the epistemological wherewithal to dig around in my brain and say Why when I looked at those little monkey faced rats In 1999 and looked at the scaven line I thought this is the coolest thing ever And and like saw their book and it was the big bell You know the dude on the on the the old multicolored like super pastel 90s cover right yellow and red and everything and green and I saw that book and I saw those little little weird dudes that still exist as night runners to this day somehow And I was like Yeah, this is the coolest thing ever Now what about it got me? I don't know. I don't know. I vibe with it Right and and as I got to do more it was just like more vibing I just got deeper and the stronger you resonate it just keeps going But was the vibing because of The lore and the art Or was it play style and I have no idea. That's what I'm okay, and that's just it. I don't I don't know I couldn't tell you truthfully. So you're saying this is unknowable. I am saying it's unknowable I'm saying we can generate reasons our conscious brain will easily generate reasons and I I am skeptical of them I doubt myself is what I'm telling you, right? No, and that's fair. I think it's a safe place to be because I agree with you. I um There are some things that I've just fallen in love with as an army Even if I hate playing it Sure But when the rules when the versimilitude hits I think it strengthens that vibe And that's what I'm saying as I got into skaven and I and and more and more Things I found what I can say is that I vibe with them even more over time I can say that with with assuredness, right? Because it's 25 years later. I still love that army I've loved it through vastly different sets of goods Sure, right, but something about it each time Kept me going back to it. And so and often I like here's the one thing I will give that book those books credit for Every single skaven book that's been released since fifth edition has hit the versimilitude of skaven To some degree or another now the rules can be better or worse Competitively better or worse play styles can be quite different actually But they all feel for lack of a better term skaveny Sure, right and and I don't know what that means other than to say I know it when I see it Sure, of course, right Some combination of like it's a ton of dudes and they ultimately die and you don't care and there's cool magic And there's a lot of chaos. It's a lot of risk reward And just really interesting magic items and warpstone and you know, I could list 100 things big and small ephemeral and not Yeah But that's just it. That's the versimilitude of the book And so it matters I think for people to stick with an army and to find a tome compelling Maybe maybe I don't know. Uh Maybe because I I can Like I think about like garith in the comments who has said that like lore means nothing to him Like it's not a factor at all Um, and I'm not talking about lore I understand. Okay, I understand and and and that's where I was going to actually push back on his statement because Versimilitude is going to be deeper than that. I think the language of vibing is probably accurate because it's how much do you resonate with the thing and identify and really like because um Lore isn't going to keep people painting for hundreds of hours, right It's got to be more than that. It's not just you read a story and you think it's cool I have never read any of the thankful books. Not a one of sure. Sure. I could not care less Yeah, yeah, right Warhammer lore is dumb right, okay But I love scaven stuff like I like The feel the vibe of the army. That's what I get. That's what I get into my cold black Icy rotten heart Just understands them and is like, yes, this this is where I live Yeah, I mean, so for me So like so like let me take this back to another thing, right? Yeah I think there is a je ne sais quoi to this. Yeah, because I think about high elves for me Right and when we move to Yeah, yeah It was the equivalent and like I don't like let me related to d&d terms About it's the equivalent of moving from like the high elf race To to bamboo spirit folk in roku. Yeah, sure. Sure. No, I that's it. That's perfectly. Yeah. Yeah, I get it Because that's what we got. Yeah, right. Those are elves ish for that setting But this is not that Tom I was cracking some neon dynasty earlier today and I saw them rat ninjas And I was like I'm back in I'm back in immediately Like that's it because like even in even in other worlds that the power of of rat ninjas of scaven draws me in Doesn't matter, right? Like we can go to any setting we want. You show me a rat ninja. I'm like, yep I'm on board. I'm back on board. What are we doing here? Let's get into it What's the story here? Yeah, exactly um Yeah, again, I had to invoke uh roku again where there's nizumi. Yeah, yeah, absolutely Which is like my favorite thing to play in in any instantiation of that that we've had right? Yeah, the original l5r through. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yeah, and so I think Like so there is this there is this unknowable Intangible piece of that you whether you call it vibing or whatever Right, yeah that of the degree to which we identify with the thing and I think there's probably like it's a constellation of a bunch of factors You know, you say it says it's unknowable. I think it's a constellation of a bunch of our factors of like Of uh, not reminiscing but of nostalgia and of a bunch of other things that are all associated Like for me, I know a big piece of my love of high elves is intimately related to playing warhammer online Right. Sure. And so like when I see those I like immediately identify with our days doing mmo's and raids and all that stuff And so there's so there's a piece of that army that I see that That makes me resonate with them because it invokes those other experiences and memories and and stuff like that Sure. And so I suspect that that's a piece of this, right? um For ninja rats for you. So yeah, maybe is the answer Maybe that like that versimilitude is a thing, but I don't know if I would use the language of versimilitude. Okay um But I think what we've nailed down is there is this element of vibing Yeah, that is relevant And I think if you if you're getting into everything else and then you get to the rules in a battle tome And they just feel like like if you're building a vibe Right, and then ultimately you get to the rules and they're like boop And they just shoot you off some other direction. You're like wait, that's not yeah That's not what I've been feeling from everything you've shown me told me explained to me thus Whatever thus far, right? Yeah, that's why I'm saying I think it matters if that if that tracks right when it when it breaks Really hard. I think there's a pretty wide space here Like like most of these things right Okay, let's get to a different one here. We talked about that one for a while, but it was a good conversation All right lack of npe Can a book That has npe in it like to some significant amount. I mean everything blah blah blah blah blah, you know But like, you know, whatever the the whatever the amount of is every book's allowed a little bit of npe But whatever the amount is that's like over the line, right? Whatever that means Yeah, can a book have some material amount of npe and still be a good work Yes Okay, do you have an example? Doc I think doc is a great example. I think doc is a good book. It's a variable book. There's a lot of flexibility It's been highly playable very enjoyed generally considered a success And it has some of the worst npe in the game Okay, okay. That's not a bad example Um, because like again like some of the egregious npe that we would point to normally would be things like Luminat or things, you know, and so those are harder to kind of identify But I think doc is a great example where it's been a hit And the back then some of the worst elements of that book have persisted between editions Like a Marathi's still doing what she does And arguably she's worse now than she was before sure Yes, she's got both she got both selves on the board now Right exactly exactly. So I so I would say that I think that a book can have the npe And still be a good book Okay, now obviously I think that's within reason like if it's all npe then Yeah, you're not you're not gonna get games. Simon. It means negative play experience the idea that no, no It's okay. A couple people asked this question. What do I mean by npe negative play experience? The way you win is by making the game actively worse for your opponents and I don't mean like You killed their models or you took objectives and they couldn't I mean you are breaking the rules in a fundamentally non interactive way All right, so the classic example of this Uh, if you want pick not it non interaction is is one of the big keys for npe Yep, we've done entire shows on this. Yes, it's not doesn't necessarily mean complicated I will give you that the the example will illuminate So The fox in his original incarnation from I was hoping you would go with that language It's the easy take Yeah, uh The fox was this skirmishy shooting unit Who in the enemy shooting phase which notably happens after movement, but before charges It happened at a very precise moment in time Could fly 12 inches meaning That an army of foxes fox force five Uh could fly up to an enemy because they also could all move just oodles of inches like a million million inches They could fly across the board. Yeah, they basically move like 36 48 60 inches in a turn it depends Um, they will all just fly up to your line Sit three inches away from you and shoot you like shoot just shoot the crap out of you whatever it's fine right And then when it came your turn you couldn't move because you had dudes three inches away from you so you're blocked in right And then when you go to your shooting phase each of them jumps back 12 inches So now they're 15 inches away from you, right and now you can't charge them either It's all illegal charges So your army sat there and did nothing And if you're a sort of a melee only army with no out of turn movement capabilities Which not a lot armies have Sure I had like ogre's the classic example of somebody who's got ultra hosed by this, right? Right, um You you're just dead you just lose the game and there's nothing you can do about it There's no interaction there. There's no play you can do You're just generally screwed Maybe you can take shooting units, but those shooting units will get shot off by the foxes at the top of one Right like that because they could choose where all their shots are going into with their bow range And they move back 15 inches And let's say you double turn them congratulations You get up three inches from them And then at the end of the shoot your shooting phase they move back 12 back Right, there's no there's no there's no resolution here There's no win You have to have high enough mobility that you could pin them for multiple directions to catch one Yeah ambushes and tricks like that that you could just drop around right Right and so oh, I I reckon so too oratorious and also yes It is worth mentioning that that is not no longer how the fox acts and that's there's a good change They did kill that and rightfully so Right it lasted way too long, but it is dead now Uh And see that's why I think Lack of np. You're probably right. There's some amount you're allowed and your doc example. I think is a good one But there's some kind of line here Sure, right. There's some kind of line sure And and and maybe we could argue about where exactly that line falls and which books historically have have fallen on this I'll give you an easy win that's close to my heart Slinesh 2019 probably fell on the bad side of this line Yeah, where it was like charge me. I charge you. It doesn't matter. You're dead all the same Right, right in a meta devoid of shooting threats and high armor where like all the books that were around We're all low armor. No shooting. They just wanted to play a melee punch up in the center And and I could on it two up for the first part of that book make you go last Right It's irrelevant like you're gonna die Yep right Yeah, zinches historically transgress this Sure with not only there could them controlling their fate dice Uh, but having spell dominance and then things like either pink horrors or sky fires or whatever kind of the The you know the brokenness of the day was Yeah, okay, like and it's a and it is a It is a collection of multiple things all adding to that at that point. There's a level mpe Yeah, there's like some kind of tipping point right where it's like it can it can the balance can withstand some amount of mpe And then you just you hit some point is like Right, I think about like lumenath right like uh with Total clips and teclas and you know like the handle you'd like just ticking down, right? Yeah Goading so you can't fight me. I'm six inches away from you and uh the sorrow transfer So you lost one model now you lost 18 you bow your whole unit battle shocks off on a two up Like you know fun like that. Yeah, and you can't be immune to it. Yeah Things fun things like that All right, I've got one more amorphous one tom. This one's tough, but I left it for last intentionally Yep, here we go. You ready? Yeah coolness factor Okay, I mean that that's a vibing like I don't see how this is different than vibing I'll tell you how it's different because some armies are just cool Whether or not you vibe with them personally All right Some armies are just cool. They are they're just cool Like they're just they are I don't know how to say it. What makes something okay Leave war hammer aside tom for a moment. Do you know people in your life who are cool? Nope Yeah, you do. You know me, but the but the point is is that What makes you cool is like I couldn't define that but we've all met people who we think are pretty cool So it's jennice aqua sure sure and like maybe it's just They're kind of metal. Maybe it's just the the the figs have some awesome sculpts to them You know, it could be a lot of individual elements that break down to something very real good sculpts cool art Cool story, you know, I mean like all those different things. Yeah But there's this generic coolness factor And an army's cool when it's when it is I like I don't know. I was to say it man Uh, I mean, uh, I'm not buying it like I hear that I Like I see this as all a factor of the degree to which people vibe with it Because something that is cool or appealing to one person is just simply not to another. Okay Why do you think so here? Here we go. I don't think That an army of all dragons is cool Yeah, sure. I can see that but I but I vibe with it Okay Right, but or let me or maybe even say this way. I don't necessarily vibe with it But I think it is cool like for me I want to have an army of all dragons because I think that's cool ass, right? Like I want that I think that's cool But that's not a universally like that's not a scale that is in any way accessible Yeah, your your point being that the difficulty of actually examining whether or not this thing is cool might Might might prohibit it from being used as an evaluative criteria, right? You can't actually prove You know, it's like you can't prove something, you know, like Yeah, it either is or it isn't. Yes. It's sort of this weird tautology. Right exactly. I got you Yeah, I mean, here's my counterpoint. Okay. Here's my counterpoint. Let me see if this sells you. All right Okay, hit me slaves to darkness End of argument Is there any doubt that most players of warhammer think that army's pretty cool and full of pretty cool people? Like I vibe with it though. So I don't like I vibe with it. So I think it's cool I don't know I bet there are a lot of people who don't vibe with it, but still think it's pretty cool army But is is that a But is that a necessary or sufficient condition for being a good book? It's certainly not sufficient That is definitely true. Okay But And I don't even think it's necessary. You're right. I don't I'm not gonna I'm not gonna defend either of those criteria as a matter of fact But I think there's something to it. All right. Okay. Okay because I mean warhammer Almost conceptually from the ground up is literally built on the fact that chaos is pretty cool right Like think of all the marketing Ever and the images and the pictures they use they're just like man. Look at these guys. Aren't they cool? That's it. Like that's their marketing campaign. They just like their their whiteboard is a picture of a chaos warrior And then an arrow that says cool and that's it That's that that's the q1 q2 q3 q4 marketing plan done I mean you're going home early today boys Yeah, I don't know. Uh, again, I don't think that it's I don't think it's I don't think it's interpreted of a okay. Okay. That's because like I don't find ogre's Like cool. Sure, but I think it's a good book. Sure Like nothing in dad bod Like grill masters Tells me that that's cool And yeah, dad bod grill masters Like yeah, they are right. I like yeah, don't check out I'll check out But but but it's a good I think it's a good book. And so I don't know to the degree to which That is equivalent Okay, or that's relevant maybe it's just a spice Right, maybe it's like a spice on top Again, I still think it I still think it's a verse similar to you think like I think it's how how well people vibe with an army Okay Good good enough. All right, cool. Good discussion All right, tom are you ready to put on The hat with sorting out. Oh, I I I was born ready to make snap judgments about about let's judge All will be judged by the way some of these the old covers because I just I have an image file of all these books And I didn't bother to update a couple of them. I was like, whatever. I know new ones exist. I don't care. I don't have time Sure Okay Here we go Understanding everything we just talked about Now it is time to sort So let us Sort these books Into good or bad there shall be No middle ground Nobody's hanging on the middle line It either is good or it's bad now. You can be more bad Or less bad. I'm okay with that. We'll we'll allow a little bit of no, no, we're not doing any nuance here There's no higher or lower bads. It's either good or bad Okay, it's blue or reddier We're not nuancing anything We lack nuance in this show. We're just we are assigning values. All right. I'm gonna still say there's some nuance But anyway, here we go Let us begin Tom night haunt. We begin with your ghosty boys Good, where do they sit? I just realized something very annoying. I didn't bother to test that particular element That's very annoying. You're not gonna do that. I now I gotta fix something live Uh Tell me why why are night hunt good? I like I do want to explore this and talk about our reasons for it Okay, like why is this good because I want to see if we get to some I want to see what we uncover when we make the rubber meet the road here. Sure Uh, yeah, so rather than academic assessment and categorization Um, you want to actually see how this uh gets manifested. Sure. Yeah, um, uh, if wide model range compelling models uh But that's variable. What's the battle tome doing right because we're talking about the battle tome here Okay, right. So it's not necessarily like having a big model range or cool models That's great for the overall army if we were going to say well like what makes an army good, right? But here the battle tome it would be like well, it lets you use all those models Right, okay, correct. Correct. There are there are models that are functional and usable across the book There's a wide variety of build styles even if sub factions Corner you into particular builds. There's still a huge variability Um, it does not have too much outrageous mpe, but it does the thing and it does that thing really well um, it uh It It there's a versimilitude like it grow like the thing that you are you feel like you're playing spooky boys That's for sure. Yes, right um and uh Yeah, and and it's just and they're just cool See, I told you it was a factor. See you want to use it We all want to use it tom Okay You can you can fight it all you want, but the coolness factor is real because again, it's how humans think I don't know what it is, but we do I agree This one's good, but but you know, some people aren't saying like models don't matter bullshit There's a reason why I'm not playing beastman Okay, and it's because most of the models are trash Sorry beastmen players. I know that you guys love your army cool Most of the model lines trash Guess what most of serif honest trash You can just chuck all of those 90s models out the window Okay, so here's what I'll say To me as a battle tome this definitely falls in good because it meets all the criteria Like it passes through all the sieves we talked about Right. There's a pretty decent internal balance. Yes, there are some trap units. Hello cross booze But a lot of different units are usable right and The feel of the army the versimilitude dead on All right, like you they nailed it with this one. You feel like you're playing these terrifying ghosts With your your various rules that you've got Yeah You so internal balance decent not perfect versimilitude extremely high It's it falls in the spectrum. We mentioned of being Competitive or powerful or whatever right? It's not too powerful. It's not too weak It's in there. It's in there. It's it passes through that. Okay Right, so check check check check check down the line right and To me, that's what makes it a good tome The there's there's another element we didn't did I purposely didn't put on that Last page because I wanted to save it for we'll discuss it after we do the sorting But there's a quality to the way the rules are written Sure Okay, like a nuance. Yeah in a discoverability. Yeah When you read this book You get it. It doesn't take Multiple reads you generally understand What's going on? Like yes, it's not a perfect book. I do agree with you cw that the sub factions are challenging in this It's actually like I would say the achilles heel of this book But that being said it doesn't overwhelm it for me um because Sure, you like are encouraged to take a lot of Blake gas revenants in one build or Dreadside pheritans in another but at the same time that's not every sub faction There are plenty of people playing emerald host and using a a mix of different things and having a good time That doesn't encourage anything So there is still a variability of lists like that's And even if every sub faction encouraged spam of a different unit But every one of them was competitive in some way or or within the balance or you know something like that Then we'd still meet variability of lists, right because you just swing sub factions around right, okay So by every bar this see it seems to pass every bar and to me the final sieve you've got to pass through Is are your rules sensible? Comprehensible understandable And I think some books really miss on this like there are some books that the rules Are written in such a way where they're full of like memory traps and they're complex like overtly complex how you're interacting with them, right and You look at it and you're like this is just too much. This is not good Right because I don't I don't I don't want to go to all this trouble To do this thing Right, you end up with rift rules in some of these books Sure, right where it's just like over complicated to the point of nonsensory And even though everything else Is good or or passes the sieve. I think that that can I think that can also decap it Right Okay, cool night haunt in the good category totally agreed all right next up Ogour ma tribes tom what's your vote good or bad good Totally agree. Why why are we putting ogres in good? Like it does everything that I want it to it has variability it has interesting It has a couple of trash models, but that's fine Um, it is not cool to me But at the same time Like it's something that I could be like, yeah, I could buy 2000 points and paint those up. It'd be fine Yeah, right. So they're like so to me there's also this like aspect of like would I be like that to me that's almost the final test Of a good book is like would I buy this army? Okay? Okay Yeah, for me, I look at this one and it's it's interesting because with the newest home I really like it But boy, are there a couple glaring weaknesses, but they're not enough To make me say it's not good sure they The book has decent internal balance decent It's a lot more decent on the gut buster side than it is on the on the Yeah, more of the rater side. Sure. Okay And because of that that is inhibiting To some degree the variability of lists You know that? Oh good. What are they missing? Samoan sub faction like a fire oriented Samoan sub Need to expand out that fire belly. He's just sitting there Ask them for friends Yeah, some pacific islanders. That's that's really what they need. Uh, to really balance out the the frost ogres Uh, I would love it if they explored an entire new sub faction of ogres Like if that was a sort of cruel boys expansion right where we had right we had like right sure right. Yeah, absolutely 100% we've said it. We've we've talked about the sort of pacific islands themed ogres built around sort of the fire belly as the Template for the aesthetic Before and yes, I do think it could be the cruel boys of ogres only hopefully not, you know bad um but I do think it's it's a little low on the variability of lists Because there are some things that you feel like well, I should just take this obviously You know Now i'm not sure that'll stick I'm sure that what that some things will move around like I I fully believe that the age of the iron blaster will not last forever Okay, well, and I think a big piece of this as well is like Part of some of the we've evaluated these books only in the current meta with the current ghb Kind of like looming and putting pressure on the meta And the evaluation of these books and I don't know that that's necessarily fair Especially if it's not going to be sticking around sure But at the same time for similitude just uh just an absolute win you feel like you're playing these big powerful ogre monsters between mortal wounds and the monster truck drifting over people and yada yada yada yada yada hungry and eating and like On and on and on right The versatility it's a huge hit Uh power wise. Yeah, it's in the spot It's in the spot, right? It didn't it didn't fall out And the rules are good like you read them and you're like, yeah, okay. Good got this understood. I get what's going on here You know, I understand the the concept. Okay Cool. Let's keep going Stormcast Eternals, Tom Where are they going? Uh It's a good book for me. Okay. Why is it a good book? Um because it has a variability list it has a um It has a variability of play styles um, it has, um interesting engaging Like power pairs and I know that sounds silly, but when we're talking about this idea of variability, um each of those different like the way you pair things up. It's going to dramatically change play style Um, I think it appeals to all the different player types um, Johnny spikes and timmies I think that, um Uh, if anything, uh, it's a little bit boring model wise and for me like that kills the cool factor Sure. Um, and so that that cools me off on it just because from a model standpoint Like a lot of their models are just lackluster. Yeah, right um But uh, but I still think that it ultimately I think it's a good book I think I'm gonna put it in good as well But I'll tell you like I I can't I I can't put a I can't say it's bad when I had so much fun playing it For so long and played so many games with it I think it is probably The lowest performance I would accept for a passing good grade. You understand what I mean? Like sure. Yeah You're in here. You passed But you are like This is the That's it. Don't get comfortable. Right, right You are at the bottom of The line you scraped by Internal balance as we mentioned earlier big challenge power level is generally fine. It's yeah, it's fine Yep No amp or very little now. Yeah very little now Obviously, it had a little challenge when it started with the whole movement after teleporting thing But that was quickly rectified and dragons Hero phase another excellent dragons hero phase double shooting blah blah blah nonsense double shooting over the course their turn. Yeah um But most of that has been rectified out now. So fine sure um the So I I think that like It's relatively within the power band. I think there were similitudes quite good Yeah Uh You do feel like you're playing sigmar's chosen between The lightning strike down and the explosion back up and how hard some of these guys hits like they feel like the thunder warriors of Of sigmar, you know, yeah They bring the storm for sure Uh, so I'm I'm I'm good with that. I'm good with that. Okay Yeah, I don't I don't think there's much more to say in it. They're the minimalist passing grade They hit just enough In most of these categories For us to be like, okay You you you're good. All right Next up IDK tom. This is the tough one, right? Okay Talk me through your thoughts say it out loud Speak your truth um I struggle Like it's tough because I think that the viability or the performance of that book is heavily slanted based on the meta that we've been in Yeah, sure And so I don't think that we've actually gotten to see how well it performs away from bounty hunters and And all because of thralls being such a major part of the army and and being effectively just cut out of the equation Yes, and so Internally, it's interesting to me the book Internally, I like what it offers the model range is ultimately beautiful If that's what you like and again Notice I like I keep going to the models as well And so like it's like I'm not I get it. I'm not going to buy a book Right if the model is bad. I recommend the book to people if the model you could have a good tone On a bunch of bad models That doesn't mean you would want to buy it, but it could be a good tone But again, this this is then cool factor is not a Then cool factor is not In there because for me that immediately makes something uncool if it has trash models. Sure. Okay Um, and so like that's so like Yeah, so if we're going to include cool then to me the models have to be part of You see all right I get where you're going. Um I mean what I would say is this I don't think that we can I don't think that we can't assess I don't think we've had an honest assessment of it Um, I think that to me it's interesting. I think that it's um I think that it's a good book With not too much mpe, but it prevents some interesting challenges in some of the units So like there are things that demand answers But I wouldn't necessarily classify as mpe. Yep And I don't think that that's necessarily a bad thing. Sure. Um And so to me, I think it's a good book Yep Yeah, I agree. This one clearly falls in good book category. Um, not as good as knight hawn or ogres, but but good It's for similitude factors pretty high But you feel like you're playing this aquatic race that brings in the flies in on the aether sea You know good mechanics that support that Internal balance is pretty decent. Again, I agree with you. I think it would be stronger outside of the current season I think that's really hurt it um But overall, yeah, I think it's it's in it's in the zone Uh for power and for internal balance. I think once we exit this ghp It's going to feel really internally balanced. There there are still some problem units there, but of course Uh, so to me all of that Is in the right spot, right? Whether you're taught like I agree with you not too much mpe For similitude good internal balance pretty good power pretty good, you know, everything's kind of there It's humming on all all cylinders. It's getting like a solid b on everything Sure on all the possible things you could get scored on right, you know You teach so I'm sure you have like factors that make up your grade Like you're great at the end of the term is like 10 based on this and 30 based on this and 50 based on this or yeah Whatever, I don't know. Yeah And to me that's kind of what we built with that first part, right? Now. I don't know what those percentages are our rubric Yeah, yeah And to me it's got like if I if I were to fill out its rubric I would just be like you get a b you're not amazing. You didn't blow me away, but it's good It's a solid you've done solid work right, yeah, okay And It's a good implementation of this of this concept. It feels like the thing. All right, good Let's pick a fun one here. Tom. You ready? But boom OCR bone reapers See how I said fun and then picked OBR just to throw you off Yep Ah It's a bad book. It is a bad book. It's super a bad book. Come on. What are we talking about? Of course, it's a bad book It's a bad book Yes um, it Uh, I will go no farther than to say it doesn't follow any of the normal rules any of the core rules regarding allegiance abilities Okay, like like further the command abilities and stuff like that and ultimately like It's a book of nine swords Testing out third edition, you know, like it's just it's it's a non-starter Like i'm sorry No, I agree Look, I think this one's actually pretty simple. Yeah Power wise it has often had problems on either side of the scale on both sides of the scale over the course of its history Of course, which is really something to say All right. Yep. Yep internal balance is really bad Yeah, okay There are units in that book that just again at many points in time all points in time in the case of some units I just don't see the table. Don't ever don't get built Don't get played. Yeah, some of those heroes. Yeah And although the versimilitude is decent like it's supposed to be this militaristic tactical force You feel nothing but handicapped by that that alleged rule set that's supposed to be empowering that in 3.0 The rules design on it is so overwrought Yeah It feels like an alpha version of the current rules, which are already complex And this is like the more complex version of the super complex game we're playing Yeah And cw we all tom and I love the book of nine swords. That's not it. That's not a negative judgment It's just a statement of fact that it was you know, book of nine swords was a play test for fourth edition Like we both got so much mileage out of that book We were all in on book of nine swords if we would have just stayed in 3.5 It kept like ideas like book of nine swords around it would have been fine Yeah, that's true um Okay So yeah, I I agree like that's this is an easy slam dunkaroo for me. All right next up Let's do uh, let's do a fun one. This is the old cover. I apologize, but we get we know what it is slaves to darkness Is this the gooddest book tom? I mean, it's a good book. It's a good book It's a great book. It's definitely in good right like On the the new book feels like a great variability of lists uh You know feels right like it's in the power zone You know doesn't feel like it's overpowered doesn't feel like it's under Pretty decent internal balance for as many scrolls as it has There really are some whiffs in there. There are some things that are problematic. Hopefully those get adjusted like there's a few proud nails here and there But man, is it pretty darn decent like well-defined roles for lots of units The internal balance feels like sharp Right. Yep And the versimilitude of things like the new Uh eye of the gods Table is incredible Sure, sure Right, it's incredible so Like I don't I don't know what else I would say. It's a great book Yep Like Uh, I mean I'm I'm in for this one. I think it's fantastic Agreed Okay All right Corrader and overlords Tom Bad book bad book Why why is it a bad book? Why is it the baddest book? Or fighting for that title? Uh, I mean, I wouldn't say it's bad. I would say that it is mono um monoslavic with regard to play style It is um It has continually played in the mpe space In a variety of ways. Yeah, like into that it hasn't always been that but it's but it just like we just can't get away from either the turn one alpha or the Or spell in a bottle now that can't be unbound and gets to cheat in anybody's endless spells or or or right or Table-wide d3 damage mortars, right? Like it just it keeps going. Yeah It's like a greatest hit list of how to write a bad book. I would also point out the rules are just insane In how they're all structured on top of each other. Yeah, like let's not forget that it was the example the thing that spurred Uh, a change in war scroll the first time ever a change in war scroll three months after the book dropped Sure We ever had that not with this book for the prior edition, but the point is is that like it is just perennially been Uh, it's missed its mark. Yeah This book If you remember I put together a rant of 20 things. I thought were bad about this book when it came out, right? Yeah, you did. Yeah, like I didn't like some of our audience audience probably doesn't remember this but um, I didn't go off It was just a resigned disappointment and I just let you rant, right? Because it me you and gary first of all, right? Like because it was just it was just so disappointing and And the fact that like everything is conditional if ends like just army list building is a nightmare with this book right And now it's even more even it's even worse because now we have the key war scrolls aren't even in the book Mm-hmm. You have to have a white dwarf in order to actually function For your additional ammunitions and stuff like that from the apple. So I just Yeah, yep Okay Next up sylvaneth New sylvaneth Um, I It's it's a tough one. I would say that it's a bad book Um And the reason why is that most of my like none of my sylvaneth players that I know really want to play the book And and that's just a you know, like that's a weird kind of litmus test But when I watch my sylvaneth players when I have one of my guys that I could you know the commission that I do I'm painting up his sylvaneth and he's like now you can just put Literally the thousands of points of stuff you're painting on hold and work on the slaves at arganist Sure, like that says something Like it says something about slaves at arganist stuff, but it also says something about sylvaneth Um, that it's not generating the play experience that the that community wanted Yeah, I think this one might where it might be one where we disagree I'm gonna I to me. I think again like stormcast it has to fall on the good book side Like when I evaluate it by the criteria that we set up are the potential sieves It's certainly in the power level And it's had some challenges, but that's a lot of books when they come out have some challenges They weren't insane. It wasn't like it suddenly went on a five and o run like, you know, the launch of zinch back in 2020 Right, it wasn't sure. Yeah Yep It does like for similitude wise scores quite high You do very much feel like you're playing this strike and fade Forest force you're making trees. You're overgrowing terrain. You're popping your units in and out of them Um Internal balance wise it's not bad Uh, there are it's probably when it was the last time that you saw revenant like sprite revenant, uh, right But again, if we're gonna if we're gonna give idk The exception spite revenants have a lot of potential, but they're again, they're dead in the water in the current season right And like I've seen lots of people try spite revenants if that's what you're gonna ask me It's just they got bounty hunter off the table Right and like my point is that most of that stuff just is isn't like All the lists inevitably look the same some bugs some trees or some uh turnoff Uh, and then a piper in the woods Yeah, I don't know. I honestly don't know I I see I I don't think I agree with that I've seen some some pretty good variation in the lists of what people are doing um And I think that's only going to increase over time I yeah I'm I for me like the mpe like The trifecta of mpe in that book is something that like I can't Like I just what like strike and fade certainly strike and fade Uh board wide aoe so yeah, this is the spell singer combo. Yes spell singer combo And putting trees on the table sure Clogging up with terrain Yeah, nope like No, thank you. I'm I'm just not interested Like I I don't want to play selvanus players Yeah Tell you what um, we we've come to a disagreement, but I'm gonna I'm gonna since since I've since I've got the mouse. I'm gonna I'm gonna rule Uh, I'm gonna put it in the bottom of good. So that's that's what happens like but I get it Like, you know, I I completely get what you're saying Because I I I can see I come down there. I just think it's got just enough It's down there with stormcast and by the way mani had said, you know, we said no nuance and here we are You know, I'm separating them out and I'm like, hey tom said that not me I never agreed to that. We always have some nuance on this show Otherwise, this would be a short segment this one good or bad. Yes done next next I thought that's what we were doing just aiming for the hour and a half show. Yes. Well, we're going for a quick show tonight We're gonna be quick. I I can I know you don't feel super well All right, corn What do we got? That's a bad book. It's a bad book Why is it bad? Um, because it uh, I want to pull your term the verse similitude isn't right It feels it feels like a um, a Coordinated uh Dive team letter to those people called, uh, the synchronize. I'm no idea what you're going. Oh, synchronize swimming. Okay It's like an exercise and synchronize swimming, right for units, uh, as you're lining up charges and doing your things Um It I mean the mechanics neat, but it's still like detrimental because you have to cash fully out So it's another there's not even you don't have to cash fully out anymore, but you did for a long time I take what you mean for you to you Well, that and that was erotic though. That wasn't in the most recent book was it? It is. Yeah. Yeah, you don't you don't cash out right now. It was a white dwarf I thought I thought that was a that's what i'm saying But that was a white dwarf like if I pick up the book and read it sure you cash out right now Correct, right. So like it's obviously not the rules, but yes To make it playable. They had to add things from other books and magazines Let me just tell you if I have to bring a magazine to a book It's not a good book If I'm if I'm having if the book doesn't stand on its own sure For even going into a new edition But just in the old edition And you've had to add dragon magazines or extensive erotos to make the book playable. Sure. It's not a good book. Yeah Yeah, I mean and and that's corn. I got it. There there's a I I agree. It's definitely a bad book it I understand why there are some diehard people who who love this book, you know gareth's in the chat right now And I know he he loves this book Our friend constantinos obviously loves this book because for a certain flavor of johnny Right. This hits all the the buttons But to me there's no way you would call this a good book if you step back from that Its internal balance is terrible Its overall competitive power has been generally bad when you put it outside of the hands of extremely skilled players Who know how to like really utilize every single lever in there because the skill floor on it is just at the ceiling right The versatility is complete in total trash So yeah, I mean it's that easy Cool. All right next Next thank you next flesh eater courts flesh eater courts Good book or bad book Say it. I think it's a good book I'm glad you came down that way because that's where I was gonna go to I was gonna like I thought I thought I'd be alone on this one No, I think it's a good book No, I think it's a good book I mean I I say that like my son has a flesh eater courts book and so I have exposure to it, right? Yep, yeah, what's there and even in the new edition it's it's a good book I like yeah, it's got obviously some big challenges as far as power level goes It's clearly like at the been often at the It's it's kind of spun a lot when it first came out. It was very high breaking like too high Now it's kind of low breaking too low. It's an old book But as hey woe said it's an old book Yeah, it's a good book, but I do think it is good. It's fun. It's very comprehensible as to what the strategy is It the versimilitude feels pretty right we talked about You know how we want to see them bring out the concept of like the madness more Tyler and I last week And I think you really could write more rules that that build that versimilitude up But they certainly feel like ravenous ghouls Yeah, that that is certainly on the mark Yeah, um, it's a wide model range that has a lot of play A wide model range. Oh, you mean internal balance wise that that most things in there get played It's a very small range, but they they all I don't mean but everything gets played everything kind of has a function and And like there's a purpose for everything. Yep. Yeah, yeah You see people run tons of ghouls to see people run the night to see people run The vargolf you'll see people run obviously the the cumquat the ghoul king on tarragas or on Yeah, tarragas. Yeah. Yep. So yeah, I mean it's a good book It just like they did a good job. That's it makes me excited for a new version of the book Right. It just means updated because yeah, it's a great book Like it's a good concept and like they have great bones Bring it up to the new edition clean it up tighten some things get rid of your re-rolls. You're good Yeah, and make their make their allegiance Billy's work And like I said on the show last week invest some more into making us feel like we're What what we talked about last week Tom because I'm sure you didn't watch the show Watch half of it. Okay. Good. It would be neat if There you actually like if in their special abilities or in their allegiance abilities or whatever they kind of had like two names So you had to like pick a holy quest and it was like, you know, save the damsel Consume all the flesh or something like that, you know, and it was like but it was the same rule For both like the same challenge special mission agenda, whatever you had But it was like the how they think they're doing it how it's really happening kind of thing. So yeah, yep Feels like that'd be a winner. All right the boom the boom fire slayers Ice bad, but I agree. Why is it bad? Because it's functionally mono dimensional and what I mean by that is it's not monosalabic Because there are two ways to play not okay. It's um do like salabic Yes, uh, because you can either do magnet roths or you can do Foot troops one of the three foot troops, which is just really one of the two either oryx or herford, right? um, and it there's not really a Multiplicity of play styles per se. It's just those two um, the model range is just boring um, it is uh I mean some of the mechanics are fine, but it's uh, it's Um, it's just very predictable like when you play it when you're playing against it You know exactly what's going to happen every turn Against the opponent like what runes are going to trigger Like what's going to happen next? It's just not interesting um, and it doesn't help that the even the not only are the units Not having to having to kind of a distinct role and function, but they're boring Sure, like the actual like models themselves, which doesn't help. Yeah. I think this one's the top of bad Right, it's it's bad. I would agree with that. I would agree with that like if you added uh, three additional units with strong mobility and some interesting other play. I think that um I think that it could be really interesting Yeah, I mean the fact that we whiffed on the internal balance when we basically have three Sorry, when I say three new units, I don't mean three new heroes I would like three real actual units. Yes. Yeah, they're doing real things Absolutely, but let's I'm saying the fact that we whiffed on internal balance when we have effectively three non-hero units That says everything you need to know about whether or not it's a good or bad book I mean, that's it. That's the whole shooting match almost because once that's off kilter again The variability of lists goes way down Yeah, right the uh like everything else falls off That's it. It's that simple Okay, let's keep going Soul Blight Gravelords Our our last book at two point now. I think it's a good book Okay, why so I I again, I kind of flippantly said that like one of my like my Metric or my evaluation is is like would I be willing to play? I'm literally starting a Like I probably have 5000 points of Soul Blight inbox that I haven't built yet Sure, and I think that it's like there's a variability of play. There's interesting models It's uh the versimilitude of like vampire lords leading hordes of undead Like all of that is things that people can latch on to and relate to and they just they get it The necromancers and all the things right? Yep And so it's just it speaks volumes To the and and I again, it's been variously competitive throughout the ages. Um, there's uh, and there's not just been one build There's been multiple builds that went five and oh There's a vast like a deep bench of heroes of named heroes that are actually like good like all of them Yeah, they're interesting compelling you want to put on the table. Yeah. Yeah, and there's reasons for each of them I think more than any other book their named heroes are clutch Like I can list off the top of my head Eight named heroes that are all viable that I would put in a list. Sure at least At least eight Which is not insignificant, right? Like that's like like I don't know any other book that can accomplish that with named heroes Yeah, by the way, I agree with Artorias Rex who says Soul Blight is a perfect example of an army that almost Is that's almost objectively cool But lots of people don't vibe with I agree like this army's cool It just is it's cool. You look at it. It's got that it's got that quality. That's cool. That's cool stuff All for all the things you mentioned and more Right. Um So I yeah, I dig this one too Uh, you know, we've been big stands of this. I think it is a bit overwrought I think there is some whiffs on the internal balance, but I think it's it's decent overall power levels right in the right space For similar to just pretty strong Rules are like I said a little overwrought, but they're not like They're not bad Right. I mean like I there's it's it's it's certainly within the within the bounds Right. Okay. Cool All right. Next up tom beasts. Oh chaos Still riding that very old book Oldest in Uh oldest in the current meta It's trash. Okay Um And like I say that like ironically as one who has basically bought a beast army in the last Um In the last like two months and the funny thing is is that but it's because I want to play zangor Like it's not all of the beasts army. It's because there's a very narrow thing I want to play and I can do that in either beasts or zinge um, but the reality is is that I As a whole It is just uninteresting to me It has you know and like in your review last week. I did an excellent job assessing the problems of beasts Which it's just a bag of hammers and most of them are bad Um, and so it doesn't have a like a variability of play style and it's just all fairly straightforward Um, I won critique of you guys last week said that like there's just no range in this army Like you were pretty hard on that and said, you know, basically there's like I'm not counting angora raiders and siguars No, but and or spitting Cockatrice's sky sky fires are a real real shooting unit with high mobility that I will accept the sky fires sure But it's not like a mass shooting, but it is a real shooting unit that has real threat. Um But that's the point right like that's all in zangor And that was my and that was kind of my comment right is that like the only good stuff is the new models from that That overlap was in my mind. Um, or it's a bunch of bad models that Uh that are over the only reason why people play them are the rules are bent That like it's not because there's a like a coolness to them. It's because shits broke um and and and The final nail in the coffin for me is that in order for it to even be a functional bow It was had to be printed in white for that work. Sure. Sure. Yeah, I mean, I'll give this book credit for a lot of interesting ideas Uh, but it just didn't manifest into anything like ultimately I agree with all of your points Low on like power level. This thing has had horrendous problems falling outside the bar on both sides Being like one of the worst and now broken Yeah, somehow those are both have both been true because that white dwarf update Uh internal balances obviously garbage They're for similitudes decent, but it's not enough to carry the whole book. Like again, it had some good ideas, but nope Thank you next City's a sigmar cities. Oh sigmar. I'm interested for your your take on this one, tom Uh, I think it's a good book. I think that you have uh a vast diversity of Play styles. I think that and there are units that match that I think the book it was overwhelming The number of units I I think that in general There there weren't there wasn't a good balance from the standpoint of like Uh internally, I think that like there were clear winners and losers like phoenix guard Like iron drake stuff like that. Um, but at the same time, I think that there was a very significant Uh, like Here's a great example. I love like I considered making like an all drake spawn Yeah, sure. Like like Or go find me. Yeah, right, right? Um I don't consider that unless it's moderately competitive Like that I can actually see performing and doing well with the right synergy and the key is is like There were always those tools in the book Sure And so from an order from a rule of cool of being able to customize and convert To the like the vast play style differences that you saw in the different Um in the different cities Like it was real like a magic city and like a shooting skirmish city and uh or a mobility city and then a skirmish You know woodsy city and a Like a more rank and file Like all of those things had their own place in that book Yeah And so it to me it really banged on all cylinders even though it was a majority of old models I I did feel like it had an identity. Okay I'm gonna put it at the bottom of good and the reason I'll let I'll let it sit down here is because Again, I think it's almost like a story of boc It had a lot of good ideas But it get it did just enough of them just well enough Yep to be okay I like the way the cities were fundamentally concepted Uh and the way that they changed it feels like very different armies when you play that way I like the concepting around power pairs the execution has been off at various points of time on this cities has never been truly broken. It's kind of always been in the the Power mid power range sometimes with some lists being like Frankly too good and needing a little bit of reigning in but still even then they weren't like running slip shot It It has a lot of complexity to it Right. Yeah, I mean if you'll remember when this book came out We said that this was the pinnacle of design absolutely And I think that like I'm glad we've shown that there was in fact more mountain above this But I do think it still holds up. It's still good right Because all the ideas in there. I don't think like retroactively. We've seen how much better the execution can be Yeah, but I can't go back and retroactively unmake the fact that I like the way the cities work I like the way it incorporates The feeling of those different cities the way it utilizes power pairs to allow you to you know combine a different force Different units. I mean I've played against a ton of cities Because one of my friends if he's not playing he plays lumen other cities, right? Those are the two things he plays and Or sometimes like the the internal balance Certainly is a challenge Like it's certainly a challenge But but I would argue that the internal balance is solved in the power pair concept Yeah, it's well, I'll say it's eased. I don't I don't know if it's I don't know if it's solved but it is Perhaps uh Treated a little bit, right? Sure. Like what I would say is that I think that it I think that is the solution to this type of Um, like wide spanning book like you have this many units agree in this expansive This is how you have to design the book. I just gotta go power pairs Yeah, and but I think that like um But what it was when it launched. I think it was a good book I really do And even in third edition it still holds up is what I would say even though there's room for improvement now I think it still holds up and I think that speaks volumes. Yep Okay All right Next up serif on What serif on lizard people. Oh, I get it now. I get your joke. Sorry. All right I'll handle this one It's the top of bad since tom believes this army should be unmade serif on's the top of bad and I'll tell you why Uh power wise this thing has been off kilter since the jump and it's been off kilter in a ton of different ways We keep squashing what's too powerful and then new problems pop up Right. This thing is just just deep ribbon. It's riddled with it Uh with with power problematic power Simultaneously, the internal balance is like nonsense often whole swaths of this this book because again, it's a massive book are just Unusable, but like there's still a lot of good choices But there's a heck of a lot of bad choices too and they feel like pretty fundamental units to the army This isn't like the doomfire warlocks where you're like, why is this even in dock? Right. There's there's there are like witch elves that aren't playable in this that that feels problematic I'm talking about sores, obviously um It's and ultimately it falls down on the design stuff. This is so overwrought Over complex too much. Thank you. Yeah, Keith roger said too much bookkeeping Like it is complicated Nonsensory to play this army It that's it Now at the same time, there's a lot of really cool ideas in it. There's a lot of cool things right, um You do often feel the versimilitude to some degree of playing cool dinosaurs with a magic toad guiding them so You know, it's it's it's the top of bad. There we go. Tom thinks it should be unmade. All right And the models models are trash and there's a lot of bad models not all but there's a lot of bad ones in there Daughters of cane tom. Where are they going? Um, I think that it's a good book Okay, um, I think that it has uh, it has it has some mpe Um, that has not been addressed, but I think overall The book, uh, it it fixed the snake problem like the snakes are super viable now Arguably, they are the more valuable more viable, you know competitive option um of the two um it uh, it Continues to have an identity. It's no longer the problems of like the super survival, which else aren't a thing anymore um, it There's a a vast bench deep bench of different models and different units that are playable. Um, I like it Uh, yeah, okay I'm gonna say Daughters of cane is a good book. Yes. I agree now. I'm put it down here It's going down near the bottom of good And I think that's because we didn't solve the npe problems Some of this is probably seasonal based like witch elves and sisters not living up to what they should be I think post bounty hunter season. I think it'll be okay Lord billy. Yeah, I still like I I still like a lot of things about the fire slayer book That's why I put at the top of that But again, we're we're purposely sorting these in with no no, you can't no middle ground Um, which is why I said on objective Kind of reflection. It's lackluster like it's it's the top of that Yeah, so I think Daughters internal balance only gets stronger with the shift of seasons We talked about with thralls and and some of the other armies here, right? And Uh And you know, I think we we've got some clear things that are out of bounds of this book Four plus rally that's out of bounds. It's just out of bounds on a massive Way the fact that we didn't fix the the shooty snakes is a problem Right, like these are things that could have been rectified that shouldn't have either shouldn't have happened or could have been rectified So it's hey, hey gw. They still can it's just an errata. Yeah, just an errata way So, you know, like I'm I'm I'm far from saying it's perfect, but I'm willing to say it's good. Those things are are negatives, but they don't ultimately mark it down It's like not you're a c-plus There you are. You're still good. You pass Okay, cool He knights a slanesh It's bad. It's somehow worse than ko Done it fails in every objective sense. We talked about every one Except from a versimilitude standpoint. No fails their entire army is about edging Well, yeah If you mean the entire army is about I was just not even the entire army is about suffering and you have to suffer to play it Well, yes edging and suffering. Yes, sure. It's both on a meta level. It's perfect design. It's it's genius It's an Andy Kaufman routine Okay, indeed indeed, but On every objective level power out the door internal balance out the door versimilitude in general bad Right viability playability of lists. Yeah, I mean, I guess every list is viable because they're all bad So who cares? It's like you take sig vault and then figure out what your other 1800 points are The funny thing is it's good. It's at this point. I've kind of like non intentionally You know gathered about 1500 points of slanesh like just just here and there just picking up just random battleforces and stuff like that As as rewards someday. I might be doing army. Sure. Today. It's not that day. No. Well, well, we'll see what you get I mean, it's just bad. There's nothing more. We're saying about it. We've we've ran right on out this show for forever Um, okay magikin of nercle It's a good book. It's a good. Yep. It's It has to be mpe the flies arguably are a little bit overtuned Yeah, or they were I mean arguably they may still be maybe maybe not Um, it's it's a you know, it's it's a good book. It has a lot of playability across the different play styles. It's interesting. Yeah Agreed we had like my like the the the We did have some internal balance challenges with the the blightlords which we can't overlook But I think that when you when you nail down when you hammer down that proud nail You actually have some good internal Balance across the world. Yeah totally The versimilitude is like a thousand percent win. It's one of the best versimilitude books they've done Yeah, um power level. It's been fine It's like right pretty much in the zone where you would expect it to be it has some good matchups It has some bad matchups. It's got some, you know, it's it's does it does it does well Right. Yeah, uh, so I mean like I don't know what more we would really look for it's it's a good book It's also just pretty cool. It's pretty cool stuff All right, excellent boop boop Stretched it darn it. Come here. Come here little bugger. They they tried to get away from me gloom spite gets It's a bad book. It's a bad book We've said it's a bad book since the beginning. It's still a bad book That doesn't mean people don't have fun with it and love it, but it is a bad book It has had so many like A like adjustments adjustments and changes Just throw in spaghetti at the walls to see if we can fix this train wreck. Yeah and I just Maybe maybe next in a month or so Sure, we've got to do it all the way, but right now it's bad keyword bingo So the rules are incomprehensibly bad like overtly rot. Yeah allegiance ability bad moon nonsense Uh, you know just like oy shinoy Right like on on every single level the amount of the amount of crap We've had to throw at this book to try to write the ship and it's still taking on water Says everything you need to know It's so sad because like I have like multiple FAA. I I agree with hey, well, by the way, it's more FAQ than man now Yeah, exactly like I have I have multiple gloom spite armies not one I have multiple And it's just in a box. Yeah Yeah, we're gonna move it down a scotch here. It's gonna end up down on this this this tier. Okay, cool All right, how do I have two of the oh, I have two of these accidentally. That's funny Uh, we don't need two of those oric war clans boy. What do we do with this one? What do we do with this one tom? Where's it fall? Okay It's so painful for me because because iron jaws carries the entire book. It's sure Like I like, you know what uh, the other three factions technically, um are meaningless Like it's just iron jaws having great success with with uh, uh, with the the sandwich boys Yeah, yeah, like it's iron jaws iron jaws plus iron jaws not an armor and that's the book like It is four books in a trench coat. Arturius Rex is correct Yeah, I We split it last time, but we can't split it this time because it's either the battle tome is good or the battle tome is bad I'm gonna say that the battle times good. God. This is tough. I love this book so much So I know I know and that's and that's and that's the key, right? All right. Guess what? Here's what I'm doing cities. You're moving up to daughters of cane level oryx. You're going at the bottom You're going at the bottom of good The iron jaws. I'm glad they have such broad heavily armored shoulders because they're terrible from carrying this whole book Carry the book. Yeah, no like I I don't know how else to say it Because the iron jaw stuff is so perfection Sure And by the way bone splitters aren't bad that like bone splitters actually have Uh, some decent internal balance in their area. There's a lot. You use lots of the unit For several of you like it feels like it should just masses the meat So like I don't want to I don't want to count them out because we were really down on them when they came out That time has proven us wrong on that. Right, right. Yep Yeah, like the real big failure is the uh, is the crew boys And honestly like I still want to play that army like I've I did a couple times I don't see a path to victory yet But I've I did a couple times is like well, maybe I could Maybe I should And then I buy back myself off every time Yeah, but like I like I I'm trying to make it work and that tells me that there might be something there Yeah, I agree. It's the bottom of good boy Is it just like on the line and I know I could I could easily see the argument for it tipping over But for now, this is our judgment. So There you go. The verdict has been handed down Uh, okay. Hold on. Come and ask doesn't this book fail on internal balance alone I don't think so and here's why because Because it is four books Each of those are having to be evaluated independently like I really think in iron. I don't think big was a book. I think big was just a Appendix like a big was to catch all it's functionally three books And so like you look you have to look at like if you play iron jobs It has to be within what you could play iron jobs, right? And that's that's the trick to me. I look at iron jobs and go it passes the test I look at bone split is and go it passes the test. I look at cruel boys and go this fails miserably Well, two out of three is a 66 percent. So it's more good than bad. It's so it just crosses the line. That's it. Yeah. Yeah So and I mean, hey You do it like the cruel boys do have a great versatility to them Like no lie on that all three of these armies actually have versatility. They're all passing that that test Yeah, just the execution's terrible. All right zinch. Keep us moving. I want to make sure we wrap this up soon here It passes the test. It's a good book It is it is a good book like Yeah, it's good. We got rid of a lot of the bad stuff It feels like zinch It's there's flexibility of units. There's like people are feeling carrots now and they're excited about it like Um, yeah, it's a good book. Yeah, it maybe has a little bit of a power challenge currently But for simulitude, you certainly feel like you're playing zinch the master of fate Screwing around with destiny dice. You're cheating. You get to cheat legally, right? Yeah, it's it's there I agree. It's good. Like it is a good book. It's not out of balance. Good for simulitude Decent enough internal balance. Yeah All right sons of behemoth Uh, you take this one real quick. No problem. You go Uh, I got an easy answer for sons of behemoth. It's a good book And I'm happy to say that obviously that's still the old tone picture. Sorry, but you you know, it's the new book Um, it's good. It's not great could have been great Uh, it was definitely a book that could have been great but it's Still very much good. We fixed a lot of the problems Like we now have the new king and that's a like there's more variability lists because we added two whole new megas to it It's not just three dum-dums now We upped the weapon damage and reduced the attacks, which is how those things should have always been in the first place I'm glad we all I'm glad gw realized I was right Because in the original book when I when it came out that was the number one thing I harped on and everybody Who was over there was like And not only did it make the book more powerful and harder to actually fight It also made it worse. So in this case, we made the book weaker, which made it better fantastic Uh, could have been absolutely great if we had like nailed some of the other Uh, uh options of the of the book. It's not It's not fully there Uh, but it's good solidly and good Last one tom scavin We had to save the best for last It's not really the best, but where's the phone? I think it is the bottom of a good book Okay Okay, um, I think that it has problems. It has real problems. Sure. Um, But I also think that it's better than it was Yep And it um, and it's compelling and there are lots of options across all the all the sub factions So variability of lists Through the roof like a thousand percent it is the highest variability of lists out of every Book that has been published in 3.0 It is the most fair tome as I've said repeatedly. Okay, so power wise. We have no problem here Yeah internal balance. We've got some strong challenges with Yeah, okay because there are some real whiffs in this book. I'm looking at you guy on the cover of the book All right, uh But there are also a lot of good units. It's the stormcast challenge Right. We're like enough or good. You can write a lot of different lists with a lot of different scrolls So we're okay Versimilitude is insane as they always have been Like it's crazy how high the versimilitude is in this you feel very much like you're playing scaven So by all of those accounts, it's right there in good book Yeah, right So there we go. Oh, I left off lumineath. That's what I didn't do. I'm sorry I don't have I don't have a lumineath picture. I don't know why All right, well, we'll just say it I apologize. Thanks, tom. I'm glad you caught that tom. Thank you. I somehow my lumineath picture might not have copied in from the folder I'm sorry. Okay. Where are you putting lumineath tom? I'm sorry. I don't have a little picture for him I think lumineath is a good book I want to say it. Um, I think that it's I think there's a very, uh I think that there's a Can't say there's a very variability of lists. There's a list of people like But it has a bunch of different units. It's not spamming any one, you know, which I think has a lot going for it. Um I don't know. Maybe it's a maybe it's the top of bad books I don't know. It's somewhere. It's it's either the bottom of good or the top of bad Here, I'm just gonna put in a little comment right here. Oh, no, I don't want to do that. Sorry wrong thing Go away. It's fine. Yeah, I agree. It's the it's the top of bad Yeah, I think ultimately like I think it's still a problem. Yeah Yeah, it's it just feels still like half a book And the reason why is like when I went to say like, oh, there's a whole bunch of units You're using a bunch of units now. That's true But almost everybody comes to the exact same list no matter who you are Here's the thing and this would this one's top of bad for me pretty with a bullet They did give her the most the NP good The variability except for except for total clubs. Sure most of it. I said most The variability of list still isn't there. Maybe some of that seasonal. Maybe some of that will change. I don't know I'm not actually sure with that one. Sure The But it feels like Power wise it's it's fine internal balance. There's still issues um And you know, I guess I don't know what to think of it with for similar to because I don't know what the identity of the thing is supposed to be Other than like we're all wizards, I guess Yeah, and I'm not sure how well it captures any of that It but that being said if somebody said no, it's the bottom of good for me. I'd be like, yeah, okay You know, and that's what I said. It's somewhere between bottom of good and top of bad Honestly, this one is the one that's the most middle for me out of all of them Yeah, like I have lumenath army. I was excited for the new book and Uh, I'm hating up soul play right now Yeah So it means like I think that that describes my feeling Okay, all have been judged. I apologize for not having the lumenath picture Final points as we close out here Some things that I I want to hit on I think design quality matters, right? And I think there's a lot of the little stuff like it's it's in the nuance How much do the artifacts the command traits the sub factions Allow for clear options to play while not being broken or encouraging bad behavior Like a lot of things we touched on are hitting those things How much is it opening up things without skewing things? That's a real that's a real tricky line to walk like 4 plus rally bad because it's a super powerful rule But it just skews everything right off the off the the choice is right off the gate. Yeah. Yeah How clear and easy is it to ingest understand the rules, right? We talked about like ko and all that kind of stuff where it's just it's just a nightmare And is there a lot of like memory tax things like that The thing we kept seeing over and over again was larger battle tomes have a challenge the lack of internal balance and the duplication of roles When there's too many scrolls and game elements for everything to get the full attention. You just feel it Yeah, right It can be overcome, but it's really hard. I mean like my guess is they assign the same amount of time Or nearly for all the books Yeah, right. Maybe it varies a little Which is a real problem But it's not like oh this book has seven war scrolls. We'll give it You know four months in development. This book has 80. We'll give it two years. It's not like that No, right. Maybe it's like they get an extra couple weeks or a month or something like that or two months or something You know, yeah, so we've just got a straight challenge there So cannot can I well go through the rest years and then I want to offer not And then finally psychographic profiles matters It's just the point I wanted to leave on if you're if you disagree with any of our points I think that's perfectly fair because individual books will always speak more or less to different people Right and and some books can effectively play in all three spaces like you mentioned that a couple of times Yeah, but most don't right most just don't And so that matters a lot for how you Vibe with the book. Sure. Sure. Okay. Go ahead close us out. Can you go back to the prior image? I sure can oops There we go So not only do we have a majority of the books in good for this image Take note Of what we know of the next six months Of these what seven books in the bad. Is that how many we have? Uh, there are eight books in the bad Eight books in the bad At least five of these are getting updated in the next five months We believe Like like based on just logic unless something that's a real curveball of a new army having Right. We know we know that slanash and corn like we have two chaos and assuming there's not any more Chaos people popping up. No new chaos got show up. Yeah, right like those two are going to be in that lineup We know that we know that We have two death books coming most likely it's obr and Probably so white So that's that covers that we know beastman is coming. We know get you meant flesh eaters, but still Oh, did I say that? Yeah. Yeah, I knew what you meant. That's what I read. Yeah, I meant flesh eater Yeah, so so we have For sure four of these books that are absolutely going to be in the next five or six months. Yep Half of the bad is like almost guaranteed to be Well, very likely you have either seraphon or chaos or both also happening, right? You have two words, right? So, right So there's there's a high likelihood That all but one or two of these books Could drift into good very soon could drift into good within the next six months and that is exciting That is an amazing place to be I agree like Like it would be really easy to come away From a segment like this and to talk about how bad the game is or like how bad, you know, what bad books look like But what's stunning to me is just how good Things are not only now But potentially assuming the design intent continues forward in the next six months. I'm super stoked about that Yeah, I agree by summer next year. I think we're gonna have just a really different feel To the game because I think most they have already most books do but I think like You know at that point we'll be at the world where it's just we say the books are good The battle plans are good And not only that when you look at this almost all of these Is a 2.0 book except for fireflash sure sure and and lumina, right? But almost everything else. Oh, yeah technically there's nine because lumina stuff there. Sorry. I forgot about it Yeah, uh, but so lumina and fireflash are the only 3.0 books that really seem arguably there are misses and note that both of those were at the top of the bat Yeah Yep So like we've even tightened the The the quality range the range right of Of of ruling out almost all of the bat, which is yeah, hopefully we never get a zero percent again like we did with sun ash Yeah Indeed I mean and I don't mean like I'm not aiming to like blow smoke up gw's ass But just simply to say like like man, we are in a wonderful place For the community and we need to celebrate that Yep All right. Good good stuff. Well, what do you think out there? Do we nail it? Are we close? What's good for you? What's bad for you and why hit us up in the comments? Tell us. Hey, don't forget to hit that like button liking the show helps other people find it It's it's free and easy and clicking buttons is fun. So you're sitting there right now. 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