 If Reality Check Radio enriches your day in life, support us to keep bringing you the content, voices, perspectives and the dose of reality you won't get anywhere else. Visit www.realitycheck.radio forward slash donate. We've had Casey Costello on the crunch before. She's brilliant, plain speaking and now she is a shiny new minister in the coalition government. She joins me now. Welcome back to the crunch, Casey. Good to have you. Thanks very much, Cam. Good to be here. I think this is the third time, isn't it, that we've spoken. But now you're a minister. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Things have changed a little bit since the campaign trail sort of narrative. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You've got a hefty set of portfolios there, you know, you're the Associate Minister of Immigration, the Associate Police Minister, which I imagine you've got some former colleagues that are sitting there raising their eyebrows a little bit about that, going from police association to Associate Minister. Yeah. It's a bit of a trip to the other side of the room. Yeah. Yeah. Customs, seniors and health. It's a pretty hefty workload for a new minister. Yeah. It's still working through the delegations on the Associate portfolio. So that'll, yeah, there's still a bit of work to be done around that. Ministry for Seniors and Customs, sort of, and going into the busy time of year as well. So. Yeah. I mean, I've known a couple of customs ministers over the years, and one of the less savoury jobs that they used to have today. I don't know what it's still like today, and I guess you haven't found out yet. But part of it was the ministers had to view imported videos or DVDs for classification if they needed to be done urgently. And there was all sorts of appalling things that would come through customs now. But I guess with streaming these days, it probably isn't a big workload around that. No, nothing like that's come across my desk, thanks, Minister. Well, you're in for a treat when you do, when it does. I mean, that's the thing. People aren't aware just of the sort of workload that a minister does. So just to start off today. Just give us an idea of the listeners and idea of what a workload of a minister who has five portfolios, whether they're associate minister or not, what sort of what that sort of work that entails? Yeah, it's been a real because even though I worked down here, you kind of you don't sort of pick up kind of how much is involved. But the first part of it is getting up to speed. Masses amounts of reading on the different portfolios, the key issues facing them. And then you've got to align that to the commitments that you've made in terms of the coalition agreement, the stuff, the work that we've got to get done and what you need to do to make those things happen. And that's particularly for something like the Minister for Seeing is that works across different portfolio in terms of other ministers that provide those services, whether it's the Minister of Health or the Minister of Social Development. There's other agencies that you've got to work with, so that's building those relationships. But yeah, when someone said to me, you know, I'll try and get you, you know, because I've been on the other side of the table, I'll try and get you half an hour with the minister. It really is like that. Your calendar is literally, you know, racing from one meeting into the house out of the house. Your house duty, your obligations to be in the house for periods of time. Yeah, so it's full on. And I think because there's so much for me to learn and read and catch up on and know what's going on, that's kind of, you know, very long days. And then because we've been in urgency each week as well, so that extends the days out of wee bits. So, yeah. You know, you get a lot of people don't understand how the system works. You become the minister. Technically, you're responsible for a whole lot of things. But the reality is, is that you have a whole bunch of officials that come to you with briefing documents, and it's really a sanitised version of all the work that they may have done. And then you're in a position where you have to make a decision, but you don't have all the information at hand, the information's in the hands of the ministers. And if you're like the last government, their ministers never questioned their officials, never said, well, hang on a second, how do you come to that thought process? Or how do you come to that conclusion? Are you prepared for that? And I think that's one of the, it's almost like an advantage because I'm so new to this that I don't even know what a dumb question is. I just, all I know is that I've come from, I mean, when you're sort of your only real adult job was in the police and becoming a detective, you just ask questions and you just keep asking questions. And if it doesn't make sense, you keep asking questions. And I suppose it's the luxury of knowing that I literally know nothing. So therefore, every question is justifiable to me and you just keep asking. And you can see it's this desire to know more and to be informed as best you can is the biggest skill you can have in this role is to just not have a once over likely that every piece of paper, you have to read it, you know, you have to know what's the content because you're putting your name to it. You're signing it off. You're saying that you've acknowledged and accepted it. Now, if I don't agree or I don't know, you know, your stack of two disgust pile gets bigger and bigger. But, you know, that's that's that's why I'm here. That's that's what I came in to do. So yeah, there's all sorts of things that little landmines out there aren't there. I mean, you're in, you've just, you know, got your warrant as a minister and then you're thrown in the deep end with this smoking legislation and the vested interests that are wailing about tobacco control and all of those sorts of things. And I saw a news article. When was it? Hold on. So I just bring it up. I saw a news article back on the 13th. So what are we seven? That's a week ago about snuff and smokeless tobacco. And I saw that they quoted you saying I need some more information on this. And of course, these health people with a vested interest in keeping, I mean, this is the thing that really rips my undies with these so-called health people is that they've got so many vested interests in it, yet they accuse everybody else of vested interests. I mean, their entire being exists around trying to stop this or stop that and their funding relies on it. But, you know, you said, you know, I think Sweden is one of the first countries in Europe to reach below the five percent threshold. That's a really important comment there that probably most readers of the Herald didn't understand because that five percent threshold is Ash's own metric for saying that a generation is smoke free. And but this is a thing. These health professionals that are in this industry are pushing this narrative that anything that contains nicotine is bad for you. I know from my own personal experience that that's just not true. It's not because I'm an advocate for smoking. I'm not. I despise cigarettes. I think they're horrible things. I think they're a pernicious, nasty, addictive product that has no merits as a product in any way, shape or form. Other than they're an inefficient way to deliver nicotine. Now, you might not know this, but nicotine is very, very important and a key product that helps people recover from strokes. No, I didn't. I didn't know. Yeah. Now, I know this because I've had a stroke five years ago. I took up cigar smoking so I could get as much nicotine into my system as I could in the shortest possible amount of time. Because nicotine helps neuroplasticity. And a lot of strokes happen because of a lack of neuroplasticity. But these health people, they really annoy me because they're always saying, we need to ban this because it's got nicotine in it, you know, and that's why they're talking about snooze and chewable tobaccos and things like that because it got nicotine. And the thing that I found amazing was Professor Chris Bullen said, and he says he specializes in tobacco control, right? He's not convinced more smoking alternatives were needed in New Zealand. Really? Wait, seriously? Is this guy on the same planet as us? This is the and I think it was an unfortunate situation where the media got out in front of the story before we did. Yeah, because the narrative got that ran away was that, you know, we're going to repeal the smoke free legislation. And that was never what was discussed or proposed. There was components of it that were just and as I said in previous interviews, that was just bad legislation. It was it was not not going to deliver the outcome we were trying to achieve. And therefore, it was, you know, it was an opportune time to step back and go, our objectives are the same. We still want to achieve those targets. We still want to reduce the harm that's occurring. We just I think there's a different way of going about it. And I think it's and even at the time when the bill was debated, when the legislation was first debated, you know, even even the Green Party were arguing against this concept of prohibition as being a solution. You know, we just and it was a pseudo prohibition that there's no way around it. It was a pseudo prohibition that they were putting in place and making the retailers have to be the policing of it. You know, they were going to be at the front end of, you know, we were going to reach a stage where you could be a 35 year old man with four children, but because you were born after 2009, you couldn't buy tobacco. But, you know, your mate who was born six months before you could. And that was the reality of what we're going to deliver. So and at this stage, that's what we're trying to do is look at all of it. And exactly as you say, look at products and get advice and come up with something that that is workable. And the latest health survey results had us down at 6.8 percent smoking. So so we're tracking down faster than they had projected without any of these initiatives being implemented. So the cost and the burden on retailers to put this in place, you know, it was timely that we step back and look at it. Yeah, I mean, that's the thing, the media, I think, have let the public down by never questioning anything that that labor implemented. I mean, you're talking about the age restriction there where anybody born after a certain day would never be able to buy a tobacco product. You know, as you say, a pseudo ban that was arbitrary. It came up out of the minister's mind where that line was going to be drawn. I could have drawn it anywhere, but they chose to draw it there. The other thing that they had was, you know, this talk about, oh, we are going to be 8000 extra Kiwis killed because they're going. We're going to remove the low tobacco or the low nicotine tobacco regulation. And again, this was a pseudo ban on cigarettes. The New Zealand market is so small by having that in effect. They were saying, well, if you don't get your nicotine levels down in your tobacco, which is a little hard as you grow it, you know, and it's got nicotine in it naturally. I mean, even tomatoes have nicotine in them, but they were effectively putting in place a ban without having a ban because they didn't have the courage to say that we're going to ban cigarettes as of the state boom and they didn't do it. So they were pretending to care, but the reality was is that if you're addicted to nicotine, you're going to try and get that hit no matter what. So if we've got cigarettes with low nicotine tobacco, guess what you're going to do? You're going to smoke more cigarettes, even though it's low nicotine levels. And they just can't see these things. I mean, the age restriction one that cohort of people is already under five percent without having any ban, which is Ash's own designation of what a smoke free generation is. Yeah, but nobody explains that to the public. And so you're demonised and made out to be this evil group of people that are going to kill 8000 people. I mean, we never can believe those numbers after the pandemic anyway. Yeah, and that was another one of the modeling pathways. But I think that at the end of the day, the works underway and in time when we come out with some solutions that the I hope there's a fair audience in terms of what we're trying to achieve here, because the objective, you know, we've got the same goal and I think also in a society you've got to balance up the number of things that are causing harm and and placing communities at risk. There's a whole range of them. And this is getting some balance around the level of harm and risk this is causing when you look at, you know, the epidemic of methamphetamine and you've got the alcohol harm and you there's a whole, you know, just violent crime, all of those sort of things. It's kind of it was it was a story that kind of grew legs in the absence of, you know, anything else happening at the time. But I think things are quiet down and people are getting a bit more rational about what we're trying to achieve here. Yeah, I don't think these people be rational, though. I mean, you've got Professor Chris Bullen saying chewing tobacco is likely to be a lot less harmful than smoking tobacco. But it's not completely safe. I mean, that's just a ridiculous statement right from the get go. For a start, we know that chewing tobacco is a lot less harmful than smoking tobacco. It's the combustion of tobacco that puts all of the chemicals and everything into you. But to say it's not completely safe, if that's the guideline that they're operating to, then you have to question, well, OK, if we don't want to have things that are not completely safe in the marketplace, then hello, let's have a look at vaccines for a start. I mean, this is the stupidity. But I think you you may be expecting more from these people than they're willing to give because their position is one of prohibition, effectively, that no nicotine is good nicotine in their world without even thinking about people like me, who it's benefited hugely. And I think I think what we've got to go back to is that the nature of, you know, as you've said, that the people elect parliament, we have a government now. And at the end of the day, it's it's our role, which is we've been completely transparent. It's our role to deliver on what our coalition agreement is committed to. And I think it's just making sure who's actually driving the ship is the people that voted as opposed to the bureaucrats. And, you know, that the proofs in the putting, I think, as we move forward. Yeah, I mean, it's just astonishing, though, the contortions that they'll go through to stop. You know, absolutely everything that that's got nicotine in it. And I mean, you see the irrational responses to vaping, for instance, which is 98 percent more benefit, not beneficial, but less harmful than cigarette smoking. But I don't know because it's got nicotine in it. Well, it's bad. We need to stop that. And there's this moral outrage about vaping and kids vaping and all of this sort of stuff. Well, you know, kids are going to do what kids do. If you make it illegal, they'll find a way. And if they're going to vape, they're going to vape. But not all of them are going to do it. Yeah. But if they vape, then then then smoke cigarettes. It just is. Yeah. And that's the the logic that the concern I had about when you when something's prohibited, you make it more attractive, not less. And smoking has has generally become less and less attractive to younger people. It's it's just not the it's not the go to position. So that was happening naturally. And my concern, as soon as you say it's prohibited, you can't do it. Then it suddenly has a elevated attractiveness. So yeah. So I think I think we were on the right path. We've got the good discussions going and we've got and there's a whole range of advice that we're working through to make sure we've got all the information we need to make some really good decisions moving forward. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, big portfolio. It is. And, you know, that's not how people like Janet Hoke who are saying things that while these products have contributed to reduce smoking rates overseas, New Zealand experts on tobacco control are skeptical about whether they would be successful here. But they present no evidence to back that up. And in the reporter in the article didn't say. And why is that? And so I'm hoping that you as a minister is going to ask those questions. Why is that? What's your evidence? Show us you're working, right? Yeah. And that's that's what I see our role is. I mean, the ministerial role is is a lot more important than, you know, I think people realise is it's that because you have the authority to ask those questions and demand the information and get the facts to you and keep digging until you get to the point that you are satisfied that you've got all the information. And I think that's why broad engagement is so important. Getting and that's, you know, a real objective of mine is to make sure that I'm getting out about that I'm not reliant on what's in the office that you actually get out and maintain those connections to the broader community. Because, yeah, I get I get the sense that you could become very locked in here because of, you know, the hours and you've really got to make that effort to continue to be out and about and consult widely. But I guess your training as a detective isn't, you know, you had so long in that role that it's ingrained. It's a habit for you to ask questions all the time until you get. And it's similar to what you know, what you know, interviews like yourself and when you talk to people a lot, you get to understand, you know, who's telling you the truth, who's who's evading you, who's, you know, that's a credible person. That's not a credible person, all of those sort of things. It's just that it's almost a visceral sort of reaction you have when you're talking to people about, yeah, this is a person and I can, you know, I'm confident and I think that kind of puts you in good state. I think the more you've engaged with people and worked with people across all societies and and that's I think the advantage. And, you know, so when you've worked with a wide range of people and you kind of get to understand how to make people come together and work well together and all those sort of things. So those are the sort of skills that I think, you know, when I kind of weighed up that I don't have the political expertise, but you kind of look at the other stuff you bring to the table and, you know, and I know how to work hard. So, yeah, exactly. Your role as associate police minister, what what areas of responsibility do you have with with that role? So we're still working through the delegations that and that's kind of it's hard because, you know, you've got new ministers and all the roles still trying to get the head around their own portfolios and how delegations would work. So with each of the ministers, you know, we've sort of sat down and worked through a what we're what we're trying to achieve through the coalition, the commitments that we've made and how does those delegations can be allocated based upon what New Zealand first coalition agreement says and how I can progress those in each of those areas. So still a lot of process to work through around how those delegations would work and they need to be in a way that it makes sense that, you know, you've got something you can be directly responsible for and you're not kind of given something that you're partially responsible for, otherwise it gets really messy. So, yeah, we'll work through the process and hopefully in the new year, we'll kind of finalise all of that stuff and we can make announcements. Yeah, I'm looking forward to seeing that. My particular area of interest with regards to police is how they're going to handle the devolution of the Firearms Safety Authority out of the police into the new areas. You know, I I hope that is hastened along quickly. Nicole McKay has that specific responsibility, you know, great, great person, just fantastic and real and just the expertise, but also her capacity to kind of work with people. She's, you know, I really respect her here in Cairnshore. I think I've got, you know, big responsibilities, but they're definitely the right people for the job. I've been really impressed. Yeah, I mean, I've always been impressed by Nicole and she's got a hard job to deal with that, you know, because I've watched over the last four years the police lobby and I know that they've lobbied MPs or politicians because they all spout the same thing. They're saying, oh, no, the police tell us that we need to do this because of this. But that's the problem that I've seen with politicians is they listen to the police when it comes to things like firearms when the police are actually amongst the worst firearms users in the nation. And they're cocking the box in terms of statistics. I mean, you know, one of the things that that as a member of antique arms, we see this all the time, we always get called up by the police to come and advise them on certain things to do with firearms because they don't have the skill set to do it. And yet on the other hand, they're lobbying the minister saying we need to have a register because of this massive problem with straw briars. And no one ever says, well, what, how big is this problem with straw buyers? Right. And you will have heard this. You would have heard this over the time straw buyers. But they only ever come up with one example of a guy that they caught before we had a register. So so it's not even like even relevant. But that's the sort of level that the police have been pushing as in their hostility towards firearms owners. And they almost have had a behavior that we're guilty until proven innocent. What we're actually just mass murderers that are going to commit a crime at some point and we're going to catch you before you do that. Because that's how my interact. I mean, I used to be a G-man. I used to stand and support the police and everything they do until I became a collector. And then it just became every interaction that I had with the police was a negative one when it should have been a positive one. There is a bit of a culture out there amongst the police. And I know you used to be a police officer, but it's changed. It seriously has. And it changed after obviously after after Christchurch. But there's just 250,000 people like me who are no longer G-men. I think that's the challenge, too, is that it's the machine of policing, which is that the entire bureaucracy and not to lose sight that within that big machine. It's a similar thing. You know, when you when you talk about the health system and when you talk collectively about the organization, there's real disappointment. But individuals within those organizations are outstanding. Absolutely. And that's that's what I think is as the as we move forward. And I wonder how much of it is. And, you know, that and that's what I hope to discover is that whole, you know, the bureaucracy that that's kind of eaten up frontline operational organizations and how much is needing to be done to give the frontline people who do the job do it well and know how to do it and know how to deal with things and give them the authority and autonomy to to get on and do their jobs and pull some of this other stuff away. Because that's that's what I recognize is that, you know, I've still got really good friends and colleagues that are in the job doing fantastically her way down by bureaucracy. And that's the same in the health system. That's the same in education. You've got great people that are almost despite the organization that they're part of still able to do good things. And that's that's kind of where I I want to see that focus shift back to allow those people, you know, I used to use the anecdote that, you know, you've got more people wandering around with clipboards telling you how to do your job than you've got actually doing it. You know, you know, the reality is that, you know, you look at our rural police stations that were the backbone of New Zealand. They were the guy that you knew everything going on in their towns. They did. And we and we started shutting those stations down. We lost 24 seven presence. We know all of those sort of things that for what purpose. And and that's the stuff that I kind of want to recognize that there's just really great people doing great stuff individually. And how does the organization support them to excel rather than weigh them down? And I think that's our job. Yeah, I kind of know that through my own family. I mean, obviously, my cousin Greg was a soul charge police officer in Waioku. He had to rely on himself. Then that's all sort of gone now. But in terms of the bureaucracy, Wayne, I know exactly what you're talking about. And I think it's pleasing from my perspective, at least, to see the ultimate poacher tune gamekeeper in yourself and Mitch, both being having active roles in the police on the front line, knowing exactly what's going on. And I don't think it's ever happened before in in the history of police ministers or associate police ministers. We've got ex-coppers who are on the front line in these roles now, who can actually say to the commissioner, well, hang on a second, let's think about the front line here. And, you know, I think that's a refreshing change. And I think we're already seeing the benefits of that. I mean, there was a gang funeral last weekend in Wakatani, 15 arrests made. Yeah, I don't think that would have happened under the previous government. I think they would have, you know, given them hugs and in a police escort through the town. And I think that's the real shift that there's this. There's a real sense of just a changing mood, you know, that that, you know, we're about getting things moving, getting things going and and having that accountability. Because, I mean, the public service are, you know, they are required to deliver what the government of the day wants to do. And that's in mood, that's in, you know, ethos, that's in, you know, that that's they're required to reflect what the government of the day wants to see. And I think that's what we've got now as a real change of mood. And I have to say, you know, really hand on heart that the relationships within, you know, within the parties and the government coalition is really positive. I was going to ask you about that. You know, you mentioned Nicole McKee and Karen Chaw. Is there a collegiality between the different caucuses, particularly with ACT in New Zealand First and even across international? You may be in different parties, but you're all part of the same team now. And yeah, there's this working together to get things done, check them off, make sure we're delivering promises, etc. Yeah, absolutely. I really, you know, sincerely say that that's exactly the end. And even with, you know, the back bench MPs, they, you know, that encouragement and endorsement, you know, you you kind of go through this sense of, you know, sort of wandering around a little bit, kind of like a deer caught in the headlights. Really positive interactions, really, you know, and encouraging, you know, down to, you know, there was three more maiden statements last night from national, you know, great speeches, great interaction. And then afterwards, just that, you know, that sense of understanding each other that little bit more, it's it's really good. You know, it's it's I'm finding it and really smart people, like really, you know, smart, dedicated people committed to their, particularly the electorate MPs, you know, the ones that are advocating for their communities. Just, yeah, I'm really impressed. Have you reached across the aisle and had a chat with Greg? Yeah, yeah, we had a catch up. We it was it was when Greg first told me that he was, you know, entering politics and told me that he was going to stand with Labour, we sort of had a bit of a catch up and we've caught up every now and then. But yeah, he I had to do a bit of a tip of the hat to him for in my maiden statement. And so, yeah, you know, Greg's he's got a great heart. He's, you know, he's always had that. And he's, you know, he's the consummate electorate MP, you know, he's he's that guy that everyone will, you know, know who he is and connect with him. So, yeah, that's the thing is that politicians get labeled. They get, you know, branded and people don't have the time or the inclination to actually truly understand where someone is coming from. And that includes, you know, across the political spectrum and what you said about Greg there being compassionate. That's what it's how I've found Greg. You know, I've always he's always been approachable, even when I was just a lowly blogger. And that was when he was in the police association. I've had a couple of cups of coffee with him in a chat just to keep lines of communication open, you know, a year after I had my stroke, the guy sent me the most lovely texts, you know, completely out of the blue that showed he has a true compassion there that people don't often see because they're in public dealing with difficult subjects. And when you're the police association or essentially the union boss for police officers, you're out there fighting for better paying conditions and you can appear to be hard-bitten and all that. And people miss that truly human connection that people have and that compassion. And, you know, I was really pleased to see Greg actually beat Nicola Willis. In fact, I text him to congratulate him. And I'm especially pleased to see that he's an assistant speaker because I think that he will bring that compassion to the job that I've seen that many people don't see about politicians. Yeah, and I think one of the things that I always admired with Greg within the police association was one of those early lessons in the in that political environment was that ability to kind of get people who may not be agreeing to sit around and just have a beer and have a chat and clear the air and at least listen to each other. And and he's always been good at that. So. Yeah. I mean, he is one of the Labour MPs, whom I respect. I mean, it's very few MPs that I respect to be fair. I've just known so many of them and many of them are beneath contempt. Those who gain my respect. There are people that they've shown me a side to them that's not shown in public, usually. And the media, I think, are part of the problem with that. They don't do interviews like this, where we're just having a chat. They tend to be combative or they ring you up with specific questions and get specific answers, and then we never actually find out the true person that we're talking about or talking to. Yeah, it's it's that sound bite journalism where it's it's about the clip or the sound bite. And I suppose you have some sympathy with the fact that, you know, most. Most public, you know, have a very short attention span, and they just want to, you know, absorb a quick headline and move on. I hope that there's more of that. And I think that's telling, you know, in terms of, you know, your platform and how you're working with that long form interview and how you're being more in depth, getting to know people and the fact that that's connecting with an audience and it's growing. I think it tells that there are there are more and more New Zealanders who have got tired of that click type media. Yeah, combative click bait. Gotcha type journalists that we journalism that we see all too often on News Hub, you know, where they're trying to take people down. You know, and I used to be part of that, too. So I understand it. I mean, you know, I used to I used to go through, you know, when I was blogging, I would be always trying to get somebody. And when you get into that mentality of always trying to get somebody, very negative things start happening to you because you're not actually looking to build people up or to empower people or to facilitate even or just listen. You just want to get people. And it's just it's, you know, it's a little bit like the police, I guess. They're always looking for criminals. So everything they see, they they're treating it from a perspective as the potential criminal, even if they walk up beside you and say, how about this weather, right? You know, people go, OK, what do you want? Yeah, you know, we we conditioned them to it. I agree. And to some extent, though, you kind of there is that balance where you, you know, you do need to drive an accountability. You know, we're elected to represent and that should be recognized that we are accountable. We're accountable for, you know, we're we're the ultimate public servant. You know, we are completely here at the discretion of the people that voted us to be here and therefore we should be completely accountable to. But those questions need to be intelligent. You know, they need to be informed and relevant. And, you know, when you get several journalists, we'll we'll interview the Prime Minister and ask virtually the same question over and over again. You kind of start to think, well, you know, is this journalism or is this just I want to be able to use this quote that someone else has got? I just think there's there's really important questions to be asked. And then we should be accountable to answering those questions. But sometimes it's it's a bit more than just, you know, repeating what what's the headline of yesterday's news set and asking the same question. Yeah, let's touch on accountability because New Zealand First is often derided, criticised, mocked from both sides of the spectrum for never delivering promises. If you're a political tragic like myself, you know, people say to me, what is Winston Peters ever done for New Zealand? Right. And I can reel off a few things that they've done because I'm interested in that. There's a perception in the general public that Winston and New Zealand First never deliver their promises. Is that in the forefront of the New New New Zealand First caucus that, hey, we're actually going to put a stake in the ground. We're going to say we're going to deliver these things. And now we are going to deliver them. Yes, very much so. Because and that's what I think the strength of the coalition agreements are is there's there's a list, you know, there you go. There's a list. It's great for people like me. I've got that list there. I can start ticking them off, taking them off. Yeah. So there's that part of it. But there's also the part that I think, and that's what I said in my main statement that, you know, Winston is the consulate statesman. You know, he he he knows how to work this and make things happen. But a big part of doing that is that you're not always the one that gets the credit for it, you know, it's it's that puppet master kind of environment where I put them in the room with them and I get them to talk to each other about this and then something will happen. And and and it doesn't, you know, that was that Ronald Reagan statement. You know, it's amazing what you get done when you don't care who gets credit for it. Yeah. It's it's like that. And I think it's now that the change really is making sure that it's very clear that we were responsible for this. And, you know, we achieve this and we deliver this and make sure that we take ownership rather than, you know, it's been done, making sure that it's been done. And this is what we did to make it happen and actually claim that credit and be very clear about that because it's, you know, it's like the 1800 police that, you know, you know, New Zealand first pushed and drove stropho to get with the coalition with Labour and got it delivered. And then, you know, it was never the only thing that was delivered. It was the only delivery and they were even tried to to make that difficult. Yeah. And so those are the things I think is the shift is that acknowledging that this is politics and, you know, it's it's, you know, you want to know where you you want to know where your destination is. But sometimes you've got to take a few side roads to get there. We just, you know, the skill is is knowing which detours to take and show to ensure you get to the right place in the end and make sure that, you know, everyone knows that we were the one that got you there. So and that's where I think the strength is now is having that skill and knowledge that that Winston and Shane bring to the agreement to the situation and then the workhorses that are going to kind of keep pushing and shoulder to the one stone all the way through. So, yeah, I mean, this is the great thing about that coalition agreements. The first time we've ever seen such a thing and comprehensive documents that, you know, literally we can check off. There's two areas that listeners of of reality check radio are particularly exercised about. And I see yesterday, you know, when was it Tuesday? Tuesday, it was announced that the rollback of the therapeutic products act is underway, that that's a key one that that a lot of people in the freedom community have been really pushing on. What's the time frame for hearing about the COVID inquiry or the expansion of the existing COVID inquiry to include, you know, a whole lot of other things and what is there some work streams that are going on to get that happening as quickly as possible? Yeah, there's definitely so that that's a big program of work and it's about and I think that the caution is making sure that we're controlling the narrative that it doesn't kind of run away and get, you know, as you saw with the smoke free, the media pick up a story. So that's why I think the works definitely underway, but we want to make sure that that this isn't run by the media. It's run by the government has got control of it. And so therefore, you know, we'll we'll work through that process and be very considerate about how we take this to the public so that it doesn't get, you know, distracted and because the greatest risk is, you know, we clearly have a confirmed objective. It's clearly stated what we're trying to achieve. And there's a commitment from the coalition collectively to do it. And we just want to be smart and intelligent about it. But yeah, the works have been underway. But the 100 day plan was a real focus on you know, making sure that we can start growing in the industry again. So that was because the financial situation is really dire. We they'd had to be the focus really, because there was going to be no money to do anything else if we didn't kind of start getting the wheels moving again. So yeah, it always reminds me of Morris Williamson's favourite quote that everyone wants to go to heaven, but no one wants to die. Yeah, but that's pleasing to hear for the listeners will be pleased to hear that there is work underway on the on the COVID inquiry. But, you know, I've been watching politics. I mean, it's hard to think exactly when I started, but, you know, I'm 55 now. So, you know, let's call it 40 years, 15 years old, man, probably earlier than that. Let's call it 45 years I've been involved in politics. And and of course, a good chunk of that is under the MMP environment been involved in politics deeply in all of the MMP years. I can't recall. A coalition where everyone seems to be on the same page where there. I mean, I remember the first MMP coalition, New Zealand First and National. There was white hanting going on from inside National. There was ankle tapping. There was all sorts of stuff. And we saw that even though there was a coalition on the surface that underneath that surface that there were two teams that were struggling with each other. I've seen that too with, you know, Helen Clark's governments that she was always struggling with factions within her own party, let alone the disparate factions that that joined in with that. John Key had similar problems, you know, a much different Maori party back then. They actually had integrity and mana that was earned, not demanded. But it was still fractious. What I'm seeing now is something different. It's something I've never seen before in all the years I've been involved involved in politics where yes, there's three teams in the coalition. But it seems you're all signed up to sing from the same song sheet and praising each other across parties when jobs are well done. You know, if Chris Bishop does something well, there'll be a New Zealand First Associate Minister that might say, well, that was fantastic, you know, well done, Chris. There seems a cohesion there that I've never seen before in New Zealand politics. And this may actually be the nirvana of MMP where it is a true majority that represents the majority of New Zealanders based on the vote and you're actually embodying that in your actions. I mean, it is amazing. I've sat and reflected on it. I thought, I haven't seen this before and I'm liking this. And I wonder how much of it is when, you know, when when you've got a common enemy, it's amazing how well people can work together. You know, if and I think that we've got a really clear demon to slay, you know, like there's this real media. But but across the board, you know, we know that we're in a pretty dire situation across the board in a lot of areas. So when when you've got a really clear objective, which is what the coalition agreement has given us, you're not so distracted by the the the noise on the peripheries. You've got a really clear objective. And that's what I say is that, you know, every day we're kind of looking at what's next on the list, you know, how how can we make this happen? Nationals, you know, got some important legislation that's got the the 90 day trial legislation. So we're all really supportive of that. So when you've got that common objective, it's I think it makes it easier to to keep focused and not be distracted by the white noise on the peripheries. So you mentioned before about the public service and the expectation that they do what the government wants. Yet we've seen the public service lobbying against things that a democratically elected government has decided in a coalition agreement is what they're going to implement, because that's what the voters elected us to do. And you've got these guys coming out opposing everything. You know, you've got a clear directive from the government to roll back the 90 day day legislation or expanded. It's not really rolling rolling back some aspects of it. That were ridiculous, fair pay agreements and those sorts of things. And you've got the PSA coming out opposing that. You've got Treasury officials who are saying, oh, no, we actually think you should keep the fair pay agreements in place. They're colouring it by saying it's advice. But of course, the media says, Treasury says, keep fair pay agreements in place. And the implication is that the media agree with keeping fair payment agreements in place. As as do these officials, even though they gave three options. And so, you know, I think when you talk about the common enemy, I think the common enemy out there is the vested interest in media in in unions and the public service association to keep the status quo at the very least and fight absolutely everything that this government does. I mean, we've seen a full on attack. And Winston Peters has has copped most of it. You know, they accuse him of an unfair attack on the media. But everyone I know says, yeah, go Winston, keep going. I do more to hurt them. Yeah, you're over the target. You're copying flak, you know, so you're over the target. But I really think that common enemy actually is the mainstream media because they're out to get you. And that's the part that I think is why it's so important for us all individually as MPs and ministers to ensure we retain that close direct connection to the public, to our communities. Because, as you know, you know, what you hear in this. In this bunker is very different to what what is actually engaging and all of us that have, you know, big families and lots of people that are doing it really hard. That's the that's the result you need. That's the vindication you need. It's not not whether you've got a favorable headline in newspaper. It's about, you know, actually delivering those outcomes and making sure that the people that voted you to get here are getting what we promised. And and, you know, we die in the ditch on making sure that that's that's what we deliver. So, yeah, I mean, a lot of politicians forget that, you know, I can remember my mother haranguing politicians around our dining room table when they were being arrogant or overbearing. It was my mother that was telling them off, you know, or pointing the finger at them and saying, you know, in the next election, you're going to lose your seat and they'd be scoffing and laughing and everything. But you know what? My mother was always 100 percent right. She she she knew stuff that they could only ever contemplate and never truly know. And and she she was perhaps the person that taught me the most about politics. You know, she taught me that, you know, when the ministerial when the ministers arrive, that there's actually other important people that you need to look after. And that's the drivers and and the staff and those. So she would always go out out onto Mountain Road, knock on the windows of all the crown limousines, tell them all to come inside and they'd be all downstairs playing pool and drinking coffee and eating scones that mum had made them and all that sort of thing. And and that's where I learned a lot about what goes on inside politics because I'd be down there playing pool with those guys rather than up listening to the blow hard to a politician's because when you talk to those guys, you find out what's actually happening. Yeah. And it's I mean, every every company I've ever run or been involved with, if you want to know what's going on, you talk to the security guards, you talk to the cleaners, you know, those are the people that know who's there late, who's there first, who's working hardest. You know, those are the people that kind of appreciate, you know, being listened to and can tell you what the truth of the situation is. So, yeah, I think that's that's it's we you know, it doesn't matter what your role is, you know, I'm I'm a public servant. I'm here to serve. This is, you know, this is, you know, I was elected to do something and develop something and and that's my job. And I'm accountable to those people that put me here. So, yeah, it seems that the public service is lost sight of that that's their role to serve. I facetiously wrote the other day that, you know, what I'd love to see is the government appoint Steven Joyce as the new public service commissioner and imagine the carnage, the wailing and the screaming, the screaming. But, you know, they announced Bill English to do a review of Coyne Aurora and the squealing that came from that was huge. I could hear it, you know, deafening me from Wellington here in Auckland. But, you know, I think that would be a delicious thing to do is put Steven Joyce as the public service. I mean, there can be no misunderstanding here. The public service no longer serves the public. They're serving themselves. They are hostile to, you know, they become political. Well, if that's the case, then we need to head down the path of what happens in the United States after election, when a government changes hands. The bosses of the various departments change hands as well because they need trusted people in there to implement what the government wants. And I think we're at that point now in New Zealand. I think there can be no mistaking that the public service has become political and therefore we need political solutions to solve it. I would say, though, that I think there's a real strong caution in there. And I mean, I know you're just generalising, but I think we can't lose sight of the fact that within all of these bureaucracies, there's great people. Of course. And it's just it's just about making sure the ones that have the good ideas and that they are recognised and given licence to do what they know and what they can contribute to the solutions. Because and that's the that's why, you know, being there, you know, knowing who the cleaners are, knowing who the drivers are, knowing, you know, that's how you tell where the answers that, you know, in any organisation doesn't have to be a government agency. But I think that's the part is getting in there and wading through the so that you're not just talking to the top echelon that you're talking to the people that are doing the job and making sure you get the right information. Now, I've got two more questions for you. And then the questions I'm going to ask my buddies at the end of the show. What do you think in the last year for you? This is your choice here. What was the best thing about last year and it can be personal, can be political, could be business related, can be anything. I just want to hear what you think is the best thing that happened in to you or to New Zealand in the last year. And the second question to follow on from that is, what are you hoping for in the next year to come? I know it sounds right, but the best thing was to to get here. Like I never, for an instant, thought that I would. I really I got involved in this because I wanted to make sure that New Zealand First got here. You know, that was that was my objective to get New Zealand First here and to be in the position I am in is, you know, it's unequal. You know, it just I feel so privileged and it just I don't even know how to say it without sounding trite. You know, this is this is genuinely an opportunity to to really make a difference. And I never thought I'd get, you know, I lobbied for so long and I've advocated for so long to actually be here and be in a position where I could actually make the differences I've been fighting for is just incredible. And from what I want to achieve next year is to be able to look at that coalition agreement and say, I did this, this, this and this. You know, I want to actually say there's something that even if I don't get the credit for it, I know that I made some stuff happen. And that's my ultimate goal is to be able to sit there. I'm a list person, so I love making lists. So that's that's a great list. But but, yeah, to be able to sit down and I don't care if my name's not to it. If I know that I help make some stuff happen, real stuff that affects people's lives. Then, yeah, I'll I'll I'll go away from here incredibly happy. Oh, that sounds like admirable goal to to make those things happen. And it'll be a refreshing change after six years of inaction and going backwards for us to actually start achieving things and moving forwards again. Yeah, well, you'll I no doubt you'll hold me to account if I don't make it happen. Well, other media might not, but I certainly will. It's been a real pleasure having you on the crunch this year, Casey. And hopefully we'll have you on on the crunch again next year so we can check in on those things and those achievements. Yeah. And have a fantastic Christmas, game, I hope that we had a good break and talk to you in the new year. Yeah, Merry Christmas to you and your family and tell your brother he needs to come to lunch again in the new year. OK, I'll let him know. Thanks again. OK, OK. Thanks, bye. I really love chatting with Casey. She's got important portfolios, but I'm sure she is going to be up to the task. We'll check in with Casey again next year. But for now, she and her colleagues are off to a ripper of a start for the new government. Tell me your thoughts on what Casey had to say by emailing inbox at realitycheck.radio or text to 2057. Thank you for tuning into RCR, Reality Check Radio. If you like what you're listening to or dislike what you're listening to, either way, we want to hear from you. 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