 Good afternoon, it's my honor and privilege to welcome a special person to this conversation. This exchange for media talk is with a person who shared a vision with me almost ten years back and here we are, he's been able to achieve that vision. It sounded like a very big audacious goal but he's effortlessly achieved it. Today we are going to talk to him about life, entrepreneurship, digital transformation, digital marketing, philosophy, bucket list. Let me welcome Mr. Anuj Khanna Soham, who is the founder, chairman and CEO of AFL. AFL is a listed entity, he was able to list it last year and it had a spectacular opening. So let me welcome Mr. Anuj Khanna Soham to this conversation. Anuj, welcome and thank you for talking to exchange for media. Hi Anurag, thank you for having me on this forum and thanks everybody for joining in to listen to both of us today. Anuj, tell me how have been the last five months for you both personally and professionally? How have you utilized your time and what has kept you busy? The last five months have been definitely challenging and it has tested the core values which we have always had both professionally and personally at multiple levels. So when times get tough, that's when you truly get tested and all along I have believed and I have talked about this with our teams that we have built to last you know we will fight through things together and hopefully come out wiser and stronger. So in the last five months I would say it's been a fairly interesting phase where we've been tested and I'm glad that we are at the tail end of I believe you know what is the last leg of this COVID-19 crisis and have come out strongly with compassion for all these stakeholders involved whether it's the employees or the customers whose businesses got impacted deeply and so on. So maintaining that right balance through this journey in the last five months has been the biggest test. Keeping all the employees not just assured that their jobs are safe and that their bonuses are still provisioned and will come or keeping customers satisfied in terms of how we can still serve them well. Keeping stakeholders believing in us that we will see it too. So all of these challenges we have dealt with and I think as a team we came in much more strongly together. Similarly in a personal life I would say the amount of time we've spent with each other locked down inside our homes whether with children or in husband wife relationships has been a massive learning curve. And I wouldn't deny that it's been challenging at multiple levels. Not being able to be there for my parents who are locked in Lucknow in a similar situation and feeling that nervousness you know of not being able to get there in time in case it is needed. But you know end of the day you realize that it's about surrender. You know not everything can be planned for and you do your best in a dutiful manner and you've got to overcome fear of uncertainty or overcome your inability to achieve some of your desires. So just overcoming fear and desire and just having a sense of surrender yet being dutifully working hard to do what you can do best given the restrictions. All of these have been great learnings and I think I've been thoroughly tested. Thank you for being here. I remember I met you almost nine years back in Singapore in a coffee shop. You suggested that coffee shop. It was a lovely coffee shop and we had great coffee but more importantly we had a very long conversation. The gist of it is you told me what is your own personal philosophy. How does it translate into philosophy at Apple and you shared that it's some day you listed and you build a big company which will have a big impact. You achieved that in the last one decade. Tell us how did it feel to list the company. What has changed since you listed the company and how have the last five months for your business. Yes it was great meeting you in Singapore. Incidentally the building where we met at that coffee shop was called the Red Dot which is a very symbolic location and our office was right next door. I remember every moment of our meeting very distinctly even though it's been almost a decade. We've come a long way since then and in this journey what has helped us is the passion for pursuing excellence in product. Passion for people and keeping the team together through this journey and staying inspired. That was one of the very important guiding forces that kept us going through this moment. And also perseverance you know not giving up realizing that hey this is for the long haul. It's not a hundred meters sprint it's a marathon you know and any entrepreneurs journey would probably be similar. I don't think this is something you need but never giving up in any difficult situation. There were multiple challenges that we went through in this time especially I would say the whole IPO experience. It is way more uncertain as a process way more beyond your zone of control. There's so many external factors that you depend upon. You know you've done everything right you've built your company you've done you know all the compliances. But you know you some some banker would just tell you saw you the window is closed and you can't go public. You can't really figure out I'm a computer engineer and I don't really claim to have a great sort of background in public companies or even investing. I've never been much of an investor myself ever. All I know is how to build Apple how to build my own company just keeping that passion perseverance never giving up seeing it through. I believe IPO happened to us you know we didn't make it happen it happened to us it happened to us. And there's a sense of huge amount of gratitude and I link it back to you know where the foundations were where the company was founded through the support of families in India. You know my own family investing. Loaning us money to believing in us to make it happen so many team members families believing and therefore I think even though having tried should we list Apple in US or in Japan or in Singapore or in Hong Kong. I think eventually we listed on home ground in India and that is something very dear to me. And when we got listed on that day of the listing itself we had all the people who had supported us including early investors family members ex-employees ex-applers current applers everybody tuned in. Clued in and providing their good wishes and support not only for that moment but for the journey ahead. And so very blessed experience most definitely and not every such moment which is you know one of those peak moments in entrepreneurial achievement where you run a company for 15 years with the same team with the same vision with the same name and brand and then eventually achieve an IP on home ground and that to an IP which was thankfully a very respectable outcome with new members and new so many investors joining in with their savings and aspirations you know somebody is investing in your company thinking that you know the returns will lead to paying for education of their children or the marriage and their family and so on it's a huge responsibility to shoulder. On one side there was a closure of one chapter of a private company journey of almost 15 years and on the other hand it was a new beginning you know as a public company and a new set of responsibilities to shoulder and a journey to take forward so you know we felt ready to take it on and I think it we felt that that was the right timing for our company we were mature enough to graduate that responsibility in all respects of it. The last one year since IPO and particularly the last five months as I mentioned you know we have definitely gone through testing and trying times and what gives me a lot of comfort is that we held our ground. We took care of all the stakeholders through the journey, not letting down any expectations or commitments, and then thankfully in the month of June when things opened up a little bit, we bounce back way stronger than than what I would have ever forecasted or what we would be in June or July. So I think the last five months have been a roller coaster ride. I almost link it to you know I've been on some of the treks most special one being Kailash Mansur over twice in my journey and at least both the times during IPO preparation phases by the way. And when you go on that journey you climb up and you climb down and and when you climb down you always want to go back there again. And if you look at the, you know, the one year journey of Apple being a public company you see that mountain being created multiple times if you look at the stock graph and I look at that stock graph I see okay we climbed the peak we came down we climbing the peak again you want to go back there again you want to go higher and most importantly you want to stay there. Eventually you want to stay there at that peak and you know stay there as long as possible. And I think the personal quest as well as the IPO journey has been a great learning. Realizing very quickly that you know the world kind of goes around in circles all this highs and lows, it's almost going to be a cyclical journey all along, but how do you maintain your centeredness, your calmness and your conviction that you know you can achieve it you can consistently go out there and perform and do well in the present moment and let the future unfold you know that you can't you can't plan for that. So it's an interesting learning experience running a public company I can assure you that you know and we try our best to focus on each step at a time versus you know looking at basically my simple view is don't look at the stock market look at your work look at what you can do and take it a step at a time. Perfect. You know Anuj I remember the first time I spoke to you you know it's in your I asked you what is the you know your Anuj Khanna why do you have this poem and you explained to me that that is Lord Shiva you talk to a Mansar over in Islam. Whenever I talk to you I see a lot of spirituality philosophy a higher purpose if I may use in my conversation I'm talking pre-IPO I'm not talking post-IPO tell us how can spirituality help an entrepreneur how can spirituality philosophy faith in a higher being help you build something special. Well let me start on a lighter note you know because philosophy must be taken lightly. You know since we are in a media business all of us and a lot of people listening in the audience let me share the first time I adopted the last name Soham so people ask me you know why why did you take on this identity I said you know and philosophically it was like kind of cool you know it's not about Soham it's about dropping Anuj Khanna that identification of you know who you are and we are kind of full of ourselves you know especially with such stories of entrepreneurship IPO milestone it starts defining who you are and everything you conduct yourself. The fun story is that you know when the first press release of Apple came out with the name Anuj Khanna Soham the press release it Soham said and when I was reading that press release oh yeah this is referring to me because I had almost no immediate identification with that new sort of recognition of family name that we took to give connection to the source where we come from fundamentally and that was a funny thing or for example if we went to an event and somebody now is okay now we invite Mr. and Mrs. Soham to come on the stage like okay they're calling us by the way you know you've got to so wake up to that. So these are some unique experiences and moments which tell you that these are just names and a crazy identification that all of us associate with all of these sort of matters. Linking it to entrepreneurship I think the main aspect that I want to talk about in entrepreneurship is it's really about creating value for others. Whether it's your team members whether it's your stakeholders you know whether it's your customers or the larger ecosystem at play how are you creating this proportionate value. And you've got to think beyond yourself right and almost all those cases. And when you think of that from a sense of duty you know not not from the sense of desire that I want to achieve this I want to get there but from a sense of duty it allows you to focus on the present moment. And then you are focused on your entrepreneurial journey as a duty bound entrepreneur with a greater sense of giving to other stakeholders. You almost certainly realize that you grow as an individual as a as a leader within the organization because everybody understands that you deeply care for your product for your people for your mission for the stakeholders. So for an entrepreneur it's absolutely you know important to stay very grounded very dutifully bound to you know what you're doing and almost going well above your own personal fears and your personal desires. And the only way to I think do it really well is to have a greater purpose and that greater purpose has to be also about your own personal growth realization of who you are what your skills are. And by the way my entrepreneurial journey started when I was a student in Singapore you know I was only 18 19 years old at that time and I was discovering my own capabilities I didn't know whether I will be coding for the product or I will be selling it. Whether I'll be good at raising money or you know convincing people to build their careers with my mission and all of these things I have learned through entrepreneurship you know so it's been a journey of self discovery. And both these are very very closely linked right the philosophy is all about figuring out who you are and what's your purpose in life and I think entrepreneurship is a. Absolutely wonderful vehicle for any entrepreneur to you know figure out your true purpose and you know what you are truly good at and why are you existing and I think it really extracts the most out of life. So so to all entrepreneurs you know I think this is this is actually a fantastic journey and when you go through deep challenges and you are tested as an entrepreneur you don't give up and you come out strongly it also builds. You know a sense of humility because you realize that no matter how good you are you know there are situations that are well beyond your zone of control and influence and you will gratitude for your team and for so many things that happen around you and work out eventually. Thank you so much and it and you know the current situation the last five months have clearly shown us that you know a lot is beyond us and you know we need to surrender so to say. We need to take all the only precaution but at somewhere we need to kind of surrender to the thought or whatever higher power we believe in whether the universe. Coming back to you your entrepreneurial journey and marketing and digital advertising. Tell us how did Apple take birth and tell us the significant milestone in your journey. Sure so Apple was born in April 2005 it's now over 15 years of age and it's a young promising teenager. Apple was born out of a very simple insight you know that the mobile screen will be the most viewed and the most valuable real estate in the world. It was April 2005 I bought my first Windows mobile or two handset and on that there was this touch screen based you know there was a start button on the on the side and what you typically would see on your PC it was now on my. Handle devices and MSN messenger on it was a browser on it and everything was working beautifully you know and that's when I realized that this is where the future lies. Now the business opportunity is pretty obvious that every advertiser every company would want to have some presence on this screen to engage with the consumer. But then what was not so obvious for me was that for somebody like me who tries to switch off or change channels when ads come up then why would somebody accept ads on this handheld device. So how do we solve this puzzle to make it consumer acceptable advertising on the handheld device was the simple problem statement with which we started on this journey and we today call ourselves the consumer platform. Business we are trying to transform ads into recommendations for consumers and so that core focus on the consumer has not gone in the entire 15 years and me and has only got strengthened even though there were so many milestones in this journey where I remember distinctly it was April 2008 I was getting married and April end we didn't have enough money in the bank account to meet the payroll. Where half of my team was still invited and that fades that you know we will close the next round of funding within that month itself so not only was I. Closing the biggest partnership of my life personally but also juggling a very very deep dynamics of you know keeping your perseverance and faith that we will get by and we raised a bridge around the funding in April 2008 which was very very important for the company. And then by the end of 2008 there was already a financial crisis the one of the largest ones you know in history until until the covert crisis perhaps would beat it if it were to be measured in a holistic manner. But you know in that situation also we raised a big round of strategic funding from Microsoft, which was a very significant moment for us because we were raising it right in the thick of the biggest financial crisis known at that point in time. And even the people who worked on that Microsoft transaction by the time December 2008 we closed the deal by the time it was Christmas that year. A lot of those people were no longer in their jobs at Microsoft because for the first time in Microsoft history they had to retrench people due to the depth of that crisis and its impact. So I would say you know we have been extremely hardworking persevering through this journey but also exceptionally fortunate at different times and I've maintained this I'm extremely hardworking. I believe I'm reasonably competent, but I'm also very very fortunate and extremely lucky. And so those are some of those milestones where I'm trying to link it back to you know it's well it's something's happening to you well beyond your zone of influence. Right and those were those moments and milestones then in 2012 and 13 is when almost six years ago plus when we turned cash flow positive a bit positive and cash flow positive. Those were significant milestones as well because for us that was a moment where we decided and made a commitment to ourselves that never are we going to go back from that moment and we'll always continue to build a cash flow positive. Sensible financially sensible capital efficient business while a lot of my, say peer entrepreneurs and competitors in this industry were raising humongous amounts of money. And it was almost difficult for me to defend that position with my own team and they're saying I know why are we not also following the same path. I said look by the time we go public. I want to make sure that the management team has deep enough ownership in the company you don't want to dilute yourself all along. And end of the day we are in the business and in the material world you've got to be profitable cash flow positive and all of this was already in our DNA since that time and beyond. Now, trust me it was not particularly fashionable to be thinking like that at that time. It's only recently that people in entrepreneurship have started valuing cash flows and profitability more than rounds of funding, right. At that time the only celebration was a we raised the big round of funding. So for us since 2012 13 we have been completely self funded cash flow positive never dependent on some sort of an external round of funding to decide our next course of action. And that discipline and that perseverance step at a time quarter on quarter brought us to the maturity where we could go public in 2019. And as the journey key milestones and all along we've been a mobile in app marketing focused company with a disproportionate emphasis on consumer experience. And I think that's also something which is very unique because most of us sometimes forget about the consumer in the, in the business of wanting to just add digitally and make money on impressions and clicks and whatnot but you know we decided that we will only charge the consumer if we deliver ROI and conversions. So, and if the consumer doesn't like something, there's no point pushing that agenda and pushing any further ads in that direction. Okay. Thank you. I love since I've interacted with you in the past. I know that whatever you say you implemented you try to leave it. It's not something you're saying in an interview with life. You know, I'm not saying others don't have sink in what they say and do, but I know that you also have sink in what you say and do. I want to shift gears. The more, you know, you talk about something which is important profitability. We talked about cash flows. We talked about revenues being more than cost. It sounds so simple, you know, cost should be lesser than revenue. But as you rightly said, people are focusing on how much money they've raised and we in the media were the headlines were how much money one has raised. That got you bragging rights. Not how much profitable you are, you know, how much ownership you have. But it was about, you know, things that possibly should be secondary to ownership should be secondary to revenues. You know, customers are the most important thing. I want to ask you what are your top three lessons for entrepreneurs watching this? The first lesson is never compromise on your core values. And by the way, it's important to know them. So before you enter into entrepreneurship, make sure that there is some level of definition there or discovery and quest to know what your core values are, and then never compromising on that. So this is never giving up. If you start on an entrepreneurial journey, remember it's for the long haul. Like I said, it's a marathon. And in a marathon, you've got to, you know, keep running and make sure that you're not giving up and and also not getting out of resources you've got to be resourceful, you've got to conserve. You know, there'll be moments where your breath is running out where you know your stamina is filling you or some part every part of your body is aching but you keep going you never give up. The third is having a sense of surrender. You know, so you work hard you stay beautiful focus on your present moment whatever crisis or whatever opportunity there might be you do your best in the present moment together with your team. But also with a sense of surrender because there is way too much happening in this world, and something or the other can can completely surprise you both positively and sometimes shock you negatively. But you've got to, you know, have some sense of surrender and believe that what you're doing if you're doing it sincerely, not compromising on your core values thinking long term, you know, running like a like I said is thinking of it as a long marathon, then having that sense of surrender and believe that things will turn in your favor, if you stay at it long enough. And that's been my journey all along I mean after 15 years I mean there were many times where, you know, one could have given up. There were many times where one could have taken an easier path, or even in the COVID situation it's very easy, you know, you want to cut, you know, it's not easy to stay profitable and cash flow positive and get not. Let's say cut costs right I mean there's a time, you could say that okay March the lockdown has happened, you can always talk to your team and say okay we're going to do some pay cut or some jobs I think we've been fortunate and privileged enough to hold our fort to not take actions with basically passing on the pain right it was just like passing on the pain if you can afford to keep the pain hold it see it through. I mean better things happen and for us it's fortunately been that way for certain other businesses I think there was no option but to do it and go through a painful journey but staying honest and authentic to yourself. You know and not just doing something because it's the easier option for that time. So stay the course and hopefully things will work out well for everyone. If nothing else you become a much better person because end of the day that's that's something that each each of our journeys is about I mean you know it's not really about success and happiness. I can assure you success and happiness are completely overrated because once you achieve the success and you have that moment of happiness then what. Then something else has to be successful and you become happy so I think you've got to be peaceful and calm and take it as a journey a step at a time. It's been a lot of advice there but maybe more than three points but I wanted to say all this to whoever it is. You're very young to say all this right I mean I know what your age is you're very very young to say all this so you've achieved a lot in your journey till now. And you still have a long way to go and if these are your values that have got you here. This is a traditional saying what got you here won't take you there and you use the word build to last which is a book that I read 25 years back possibly 20 more than 25 business school more than 25 years back. So tell us if there was a book on Anuj Khanna Soham what would it be called Trinitra. I don't know I'm not sure I'm not. Oh my God this is a difficult question. Build to last title is already taken. You know I was talking to Harsh Mariwala in the day for Business World and his book is coming out it's called Harsh Reality Harsh Reality you know his name is Harsh Mariwala. So it's Harsh Reality that's the book it's called and you know my book is coming out it's called Eight Days a Week. Well I would say I don't have a very crisp title for this or a tagline. We talk offline on that we talk like this. Now marketing has been totally transformed by digital and last five months COVID has become the chief digital officer for all corporations businesses enterprises. The word digital transformation means different things to different people and in the life cycle of a company where they are digital transformation could be very different thing. Tell us what's your view on the way digital transformation has got accelerated in the last five months. What are the changes you see in corporations in the way CMO looking at customers give a sense of what you feel. Yeah I think the job of the CMO thinking about customers or consumers whichever way one looks at it is a tough one. And in these times where disproportionate level of shift is happening in terms of how accelerated. The adoption curve has been towards let's say the mobile screen potentially to the point of it being even unhealthy at an individual level even for myself and we look at how much screen time has gone up. In this period of time for all of us when you're working from home you know or otherwise you know all interactions have become digital on calls and video calls on everything is somehow happening through this through this through the smart screen. So every form of media whether it is you know especially in the media business all traditional media where there's a newspaper are now in apps. TV is on connected TV on devices I mean out of home experiences are also increasingly everything is becoming more and more digital and happening on this private handheld always on always carry device. So what I see here is a is a massive shift, especially in emerging markets like India. You know and in where the demographic profile is so skewed towards youth or possibly another big segment is let's say rural segment right whether because of the youth having their demographic preferences of working on their private devices. Or the rural areas where due to affordances they can only depend on that one device they can invest in and do everything from there. The two big demographic segments are completely to be reached only on this device. So the job of the market here is now to really embrace this reality because the writing is on the wall we have no chance to continue on our inertia on staying married to traditional media with the bulk of our budgets going there. In a lot of the developed markets digital is already a majority of the total advertising spends like more than 50% in some of the markets. Whereas in India and emerging markets is still well behind that right I think we are still in the plus minus 20% range. And I think this this shift will be a very significant shift and while the writing was always on the wall I think what covered has done has accelerated this very very quickly. So all initiatives whether the initiatives of the government or the initiatives of the competitive forces in the telecom sector data prices coming down the need for using digital for payments or otherwise across the board. And now we are clearly seeing you know a massive adoption coming from health tech for mobile. I've seen that in our own company the education tech health tech fintech, you know some of these categories are in high impact categories, right because it's also bridging the gap of access, right bringing education to the to the in a very affordable way to everybody who can afford at least a device and connectivity. Right bringing health care from experts to the to a to a very efficient sort of method in a cost effective manner, bringing the best advice to anyone anywhere as long as they have a connection and I think these are huge social impact. And we are playing a very small part in enabling that you know with the with the lens of enabling advertising on it but we feel more satisfied about our own journey that we are now not just about you know entertainment or gaming or e-commerce but we are taking it deeper to more essential services. Right and these sectors are coming in in a big way so if anybody is a marketer across these segments would be living this reality now you know in in a big way that how do you adopt mobile what do you do on these smart screens and well beyond that to other connected devices. And so you know that's my two cents to say that this trend is here and the sooner we embrace and adapt to this the easier you know the path to ROI in each of the businesses for the marketers would be brilliant. I know there are lots of questions coming on the Q&A chat some coming through the Facebook thing. I'll bring all of them on just reading them. I'll bring all of them on the screen, but I just wanted to ask you two more questions. And if I may interrupt you I just thought of the title of my book. Inspired by your questions I would say who is so how I like that. Actually it's very predictable from my conversation. I'm not the right. Who is Soham. I like that. And it's intriguing. So it's good. For our viewers Soham is Lord Shiva. That's the Soham. But here he's talking about who is he. You know, so I think it'd be interesting to be coming back to advertising. Last five months overall advertising has come down. A lot of brands were on pause. But two things are offering well for the business ecosystem. One, the festive season is three months away. In Diwali is three months away. The festive season starts in some time. Second, IPL is happening. So tell us, do you see advertising coming back and say if brands spend 100 rupees over the next three months, do you see a lot going into digital and mobile? Yes, if I may say from our very limited vantage point for Apple, I did allude to that earlier that in June and July, we have seen advertising, at least for us, has come back. Has come back strongly enough for me to say that had COVID not happened and somebody asked me in January, 2020, that would you be satisfied with this kind of outcome in June, 2020? I'm just talking about the month because April, May were clearly locked down and, you know, and a very different experience. But for us, for mobile marketing, for what we do, it's fully back to the extent where, you know, I would have taken it even if somebody told me that this would be the outcome without COVID. So I think this is a very good position to be in. And I'm very optimistic that the consumer confidence and as you mentioned rightly around IPL, around the festive season would come back with hopefully with the vengeance, because there is a lot of people waiting to get out there and do more and live normally and just express themselves, whether through participating in the economy or by, you know, even through consumption. So all of this will definitely lead to a bounce back effect. And it should be strong enough. So the most of the businesses that are dependent on advertising or enablement through advertising should definitely see a much better time. The tough phase is behind us. It should only get better. The question is how quickly and how and how much it's not better. Really, let me ask my last question and then I bring in all the audience questions. My first question to you is, you know, you have a co-founder. I would never be your co-founder because my name is Anurag and not Aloch. Okay. So tell us how, you know, in this world of collaboration, you collaborate internally, collaborate externally. How important is collaboration? And tell us the collaboration with your co-founder. I can say because in exchange for media, I have a co-founder in Naval and Naval and we have friends. So it's very easy to work. Our relationship dates back to 29 years. He was my junior in the engineering school and I bought him a lot of free beers and that's how he became my friend. So tell us how does collaboration work? And there I say the co-founder dynamics is very important for a company. There is always, you know, while people are equal in a lot of ways. But there is always somebody, one of the co-founders who leads the company who sets the vision. So tell us a bit on that. Look, when I started AFL, I had no advertising experience, you know, and I was a tech entrepreneur. I had two successful startups building the products, the teams and customers and cash flows. I knew all of that, but I had no advertising experience. And so at the very early days, I was looking at, you know, who should we get on board? Who will complete us? And I quickly thought of Anuj Kumar, but I didn't approach him direct and said, okay, because he and I were in school in Lucknow in St. Francis College when we were six years old till the age of 16. We were in the same school, same class. Given the names are also Anuj and Anuj, the role numbers were just one number apart. We have lived through all exams of school together sitting right next to each other, but keeping our core core values intact. And we were always doing very well, but in different subjects. Okay. In any case, Anuj was already working at ESPN at that time. So I was in Gurgaon, I stayed at his home and, you know, I said, would you like to come on board? And the next day, I think, or within a week or so, he resigned from ESPN and in the rest is history. We've been together. He joined us in April 2006. And it's been a fascinating journey all along. And we've been longer together in AFL than we were in school together. So, you know, this is really quite special. Collaboration is absolutely important. And collaboration extends in an inclusive sense beyond the two or to so many others, because there are at least, I would say 10 people at AFL today would be in the journey and have run through the journey with a sense of being co-founders and entrepreneurs, either because they were running their own companies and had very long journeys there and those companies merged with AFL. But we have recognized that that, hey, they are also co-founders. And in fact, the most important thing in any relationship is how do you keep it fresh? How do you not let it become stale, whether it's your relationship at home with your parents or with your siblings or with your children or your wife and your co-founders, how do you keep it fresh? So for us, we've always treated it as a new beginning, you know, each year, each, you know, moment. And we just started a new journey. AFL 2.0 is what we call it. It's for year 2020 to 2029. It's a decade long journey. And it's a new journey. And there are a lot of co-founders in the journey, including those who have just joined us through the acquisition. So how do you become inclusive, whether people feel that we belong here, we own this, this is our journey as much as it is theirs. Because it's very easy for people to think if this is about Anuj and Anuj, right? And then we'll never be able to come in their inner circle because they have so much history together. I mean, over 35 years of history together in different formats, it's kind of hard to beat, but yet keeping it inclusive and very, very professional. So we have disagreements, we have arguments, and they are open. It's not like Anuj and Anuj will always appear the same together. So we have very, very strong open culture. That could be the title of your book. Which one? Anuj and Anuj. Okay. All right. That could be maybe the title of Anuj Kumar's book. Yes. By the way, I did ask him the same question I asked you about 10 years. I think he was the one who set up the meeting, or at least he was instrumental. Yes. Yes, absolutely. And Anuj is a fine guy. I met him a couple of times. So beautiful. I like this. Now you achieve so much. You achieve the, you know, life without attachments is the life that Shiva lives. So how he lives. Do you build a plan for 2029? So isn't there a contradiction? No, there isn't. You know, So one thing is if you plan a long journey, you know, just imagine if you have a long journey to plan, some people will carry a lot of baggage. Right. Let's pack this also. Let's plan that also. It's a 10 year journey. Let's take a big bag. If you plan a short trip for a day, you'll not, you know, carry a lot. Now, and when you plan for a long complex journey, which may have all kinds of ups and downs, you must travel light without baggage. And if we can do that, then I think you can stay fresh and not get bogged down with it because now, you know, you're not carrying heaviness with you. So how do you stay light? How do you focus on what you have to do? Focus on the present moment without having and then surrender the rest of the journey because you're going to take a step at a time. You know, you know, you're going to do, you're going to go around a big circle of 10 years and, you know, it's going to be a massive journey. But at the same time, traveling light is very, very important. And focusing on the present moment on what you got to do today, taking a step at a time. So I know it's sounding ironic. You're planning for 10 years. It goes back. It goes back. You said right at the start, be in the moment. Give it your best right now. You're talking to me. You're fully in it. You know, that's correct. So I think just if you do what you need to do today, right tomorrow and day after it automatically takes care of itself. So I mean, I don't think that's the point. There's a guiding purpose, by the way. It's beyond Apple 2.0. We want to build an institution that lasts well beyond our lifetimes. So going public. I mean, people are asking, why do you go public? It's so complicated. You know, you put a report every quarter. You've got to, you know, everything is in the public forum and so on. And the share price movement may impact you emotionally. Look, most of the people get used to it. You know, no, no, I think most of the people get used to it. Anybody who's running a public company, you know, for some time, I'm sure they've all got seasoned and used to it. Now what I'm saying is a building an institution for a lifetime, you know, well beyond your lifetime. And that's the sort of guiding purpose and principle. And one of the bucket list items that, you know, is going to take a whole lifetime to do. And that's what we're trying to do at Apple. Really, my last question before I bring you, you've done everything. Is there a bucket list that Anuj Khanna Soham has? I mean, if there's one, why don't you tell us the list? Actually, I had only one item which I was just kind of talking about that, you know, building affluence into an institution, which will be well beyond the founders, well beyond the lifetime of the founders. So building a culture that will, you know, sustain and go through all forms of technology disruptions that are yet to happen. You know, so far technology has been simply an enabler, enabler of how we are experiencing life and the environment around us at a physical level. But now what's happening with technology with artificial intelligence, where it is now taking a role almost next to us as humans, as an equal and saying, hey, I can make decisions for you. And I can make decisions for you potentially better than what you can do. And so many forms and shapes, this is going to disrupt how we see the economy today, will make it potentially safer, more efficient and very, very different than what all of us can imagine today. So given all of that is yet to unfold, you know, I think my bucket list there is to just build a very solid culture of innovation, a culture of, you know, building an institution, you know, which will hopefully see through and negotiate through all these very, very disruptive, significant changes that are ahead of us. So I don't know whether that qualifies as a bucket list, but that's what I'm trying to do every single day. Brilliant. Prenka, let's bring in all the questions that are being asked. Let me take my first question to you is, it's from Mary Disunit. Please tell us what your greatest purpose is. I think Mary, she's already told, but you can reiterate it. Well, maybe I'll say it in a different way this time. One simple insight that I have figured out about life. And this largely is true for almost everything, by the way, is that everything around us is kind of somehow going in its own orbit, which is generally circular. So now you can choose to be going around in circles in life, or you can find your centeredness and experience what's happening around the circle or even you're going through the circle, at least try to be centered and experience what's happening. And what I'm trying to also do with respect to my professional achievement and purpose is that how do we enhance that orbit for Apple to make it much more impactful, much more global, much more bigger and inclusive and all-encompassing, so that we can make much bigger impact around the world. So the professional goal is that. But if you could visualize this, that everything is going around in circles and it doesn't make sense to always be in the orbit. You've got to find your centeredness. Because once you anchor yourself in that, that's when you can build a much bigger orbit around you. Brilliant. There are more questions. There are little narrow questions. They're on the business of advertising, marketing, media. How advertisers and agencies have embraced rapidly to the evolving digital advertising and customer engagement system. What's your assessment? Well, I think it's still work in progress. And what has happened so far in most companies, large or small is that we are using technology merely as an enabler. You know, there are things we want to do. And we think if we do it with technology, it'll be more efficient, it'll be cheaper, it'll be faster, it'll be better. So it's mostly being used as an enabler. And what we are now heading towards is that every single business large or small is going to be using some form of artificial intelligence, machine learning, which is not in the physical sense, but in the sense of decision making, strategizing, and, you know, driving technology, leading to not just driving your cars or your airplanes, but actually driving your business strategy and driving your decision making based on machine learning and AI. And I'm not talking about this in the sense of, you know, robotics and so on. I'm talking very simple sense that whatever data you have in the organizations today, most of the companies haven't yet graduated to applying deep learning and enabling automation of some decision making or predictive modeling, you know, using technology. And this is not difficult or expensive to do. You know, it is possible to do it in simply and it is maybe just that mental block. You know, we are all used to using tools and technology in the way it's kind of easy. Okay, let's use it for chatting, communication, customer engagement, touch point, CRM and so on. But there's much more value still left to be extracted. And I think we're heading towards that dimension where technology and digitization would not just be an enabler, but actually a driver for strategy for most businesses. Really? These were two questions that Upasna Upadhyay asked. Kamalji Saring is asking, have you experienced failures and what have you learned from them? Yeah, I've experienced failures for sure. And I think what I have learned from them is to not give up in the face of failure. At any crisis situation, true failure would be to not learn from it, to not outgrow it or to not persevere through it. So when you accept it and say, okay, this is the end and that's it. You know, so, but of course it's iterative. So there could be a feature of a product that you build which is not working. There you've got to use the philosophy of detachment. You know, you really thought it would work, but it doesn't work. So it's about accept it. Move on, do the next thing. You know, but how do you learn from each instance and iterate and make it something better and persevere through it? And in fact, I would say, you know, learning through failures, whether they were on products, whether it was at an ecosystem level, I've seen big failures in the journey so far. Our entire business was built on the ecosystem of Nokia and BlackBerry from 2005 till 2009. And when that changed, every relationship you have invested in in those aspects on your product certainly went away. You've got to reinvent yourself differently, but you've learned so much through it. You know, so you just keep on persevering and applying yourself all over again. And entrepreneurs are really good at it, building from scratch again. So I would say built to last when something gets demolished and destroyed in the process because at an ecosystem level, something dramatically shifted, how do you build all over again? Yeah, that's where it is. You know, the Hindu community comes. You have to be Shiva, creative destruction to be able to create which is Vishnu and then be able to preserve. So, you know, Ashok Chaturvedi is asking your attitude to risk. I mean, this question is in a way that I have to rephrase. So advice risk, do you mitigate risk or take it head off? So you have to, how do you calibrate the amount of risk you take? You know, the most adventurous people in the world, whether they are in the world of sport, adventure sport especially, I think are the best risk managers, right? When somebody looks and says, this is crazy. I mean, how can you be doing this? Well, when you prepare for risk, you work diligently to prepare for every possibility and try to cover it. And you've really worked hard at it, your confidence grows because you've covered your ground. And that's what entrepreneurs are intuitively very good at. Right? It may seem like, wow, you're a big risk taker as an entrepreneur, but it's backed by great preparation. And so what you don't see as risk, like it's like COVID situation and you're going ahead and acquiring a company in Spain, you're going ahead and acquiring a company with, you know, which is Appnex or MediaSmart. Now you're investing in other companies within the five months of lockdown. We accelerated our, you know, acquisitiveness or investment strategy because that was the best time to negotiate value. But valuation is more attractive than they ever were. Absolutely. So, you know, risk is a matter of perception and preparation. If you perceive the risk and you prepare for it, you can take it head on, but I'm nowhere advising somebody to be foolhardy. You know, my daughter climbs the tree in front of my house all the time. She's only five years old and the people in the balcony is up there shouting, Hey, somebody saved this girl. My daughter looks at, I am safe. I know I'm okay. And I believe her because I know she has prepared and she has done it and she's okay. But anybody else seeing it would say, this father is, you know, too much of a risk taker and this five year old is foolhardy. You know, that's not the case. I think that is once you have perceived things, prepared for it, you can go ahead and take the risk head on. Okay. Beautiful answer. I love it. How do you handle adversity in self doubt? Well, I wouldn't deny that self doubt is something that every entrepreneur or anybody, every individual has to deal with at some point in time. And it could be in any context. It could be in context of your profession. It could be in the context of your personal relationships. And the only way I know how to deal with it is with the sense of surrender and having the faith that every tough phase must give way to a better time. As long as you don't give up and you hang in there. Suddenly, you know, time has a way to heal and the time has a way to provide perspective where the same crisis where you think of giving up in self doubt, look 10 years forward, you look back at it, you can laugh at it and say, it wasn't really something so intense. So having that larger perspective, but when you are in that moment where self doubt creeps in, it's not easy. And, and that's where you've got to rely on your co-values, perseverance, surrender, whatever works for you. But if you hang in there long enough, you know, definitely the situation changes. That's every, every situation changes for sure. And many a times for the better. Satish Sharma is asking a very simple question. I would be interested in knowing how did you name the company Apple? Well, multiple answers to that, but a short answer in the context of media businesses that fundamentally what Apple was doing was bringing advertising onto the mobile screen. And therefore making mobile apps, having a real business model to become free for consumers. And in that sense, affordable for consumers, right? I'm talking about a time where data plans were not cheap, where mobile internet was not cheap. And in 2005, when we conceptualized Apple, we said fundamentally, what are we doing? What are ads doing? Ads are subsidizing something for the consumer, which they want to consume, whether it's content, whether it's games, apps, experiences. And so it is AFF is affordable. And LE is for mobile, the last two digits of mobile. And that was Apple. But there was another connotation in Singapore, which is where I was since I was in the, at the age of 16. And I came to study at Raffles Junior College. So the word Raffles in Singapore always meant the best, you know, whether it's the best school or in business class, there's a Raffles class. I remember I asked you where your office is. And you said Raffles, right? Yeah, it was in that area near Raffles Place. But if you drop R and you drop S from Raffles, you get Apple. And that was another reason to name it. And by the way, preemptively, let me also answer, many people think it's the play on the word Apple. It's not. And for whatever it is worth, Apple started in April 2005, which is well prior to any plans announced on by Apple on iPhone or iOS or mobile. So, you know, we definitely don't see that as a connect. And it's completely our own creation. It was a five letter word. And by the way, the domain name was available. And that's an important criteria as well. Thank you. I totally trust you. Yes. Poonji is asking how is Apple's technology different from other companies such as the trade desk, Cretio, et cetera, in terms of delivering value for consumers and advertisers. Great question. So if you look at the technology or trade desk, let's say in terms of technology, things might be similar. But in terms of our business model, a trade desk is basically saying that they're giving you a software which helps you to trade and trade what trade in the commodities of buying impressions or clicks or data. Right. And what Apple is saying is that our business model is different. We are saying that we are on the CPC business model. You don't have to pay for the impressions or the clicks. You don't have to pay for the data or the technology. You only pay us when you get value, when you get ROI. And so the business model is different. The business is also being executed in different geographies. 50% of our business comes from India. And therefore the data that we have is about Indian audiences. We are going deeply vernacular, focused on the indigenous languages in India to understand the consumer and communicate with them much better. We are verticalizing our platform and products for the various industry verticals that we serve, about top 10 industry verticals that contribute 90% of the revenue. So the geography is different. The consumer is different. The verticals we focused on are different. So all of that combined with a different business model makes us very, very unique. And the competitive advantage lies in being able to work in the most difficult unit economic markets, like India or Indonesia or Africa or LATAM, or emerging markets broadly speaking. The unit economics is really tough in these markets. And if you can run a scalable, sensible, financially sensible business with bottom line sensibility here, it becomes a competitive advantage because for the kind of cost structures, let's say a trade desk for the Cridio has, it's going to be very tough for them to really compete at scale in emerging markets is my opinion. And we'll see how the world unfolds, but there's a long way to go. And right now, we're not fighting head on with these guys in our markets. Okay. Are there always asking impact on Apple depreciating info for brand advertiser? What solutions do companies like Apple have to target high R2 and iPhone users? Sure. Great question. Like I said, we focus on emerging markets very deeply. And most of us in India would know that India is disproportionately over 95% and Android, you know, Android based markets, not iOS based market. And that's true largely for over 95% of our business. You know, it's completely in the Android ecosystem. Having said that, however small, the impact would be to Apple per se, but the impact to the industry is large, right? In developed markets where there are companies who are peers whose businesses, let's say 50% anchored on iOS ecosystem, they must be deeply nervous. The attribution partners in the ecosystem whose big part of the business is focused on iOS based revenues should be deeply nervous. And everybody is figuring this out at this moment. And for us, because of this change being, let's say simpler to deal with because we are insulated just by the fact that we are focused on emerging markets, we are able to take a fresh look at it, look at how do we recalibrate to this change, bring out products, bring out the right kind of, you know, knowledge which will empower the customers to deal and embrace this change because the change is already there. The writing is on the wall. This is how it's going to work. So we can react very quickly and go to even develop markets, offer solutions to advertisers and marketers to help them through this, to navigate this through. And I think Apple would be able to make some impact there, even though that's not our number one agenda, but it is an opportunity that's come our way to respond while the rest of the competition is perhaps grappling with this in a much deeper way to figure out how the world would be. And longer term, what this means is that we have the benefit of hindsight. By the time such changes happen on any other part of the ecosystem, Apple would have learned, seen what happens, how to maneuver through it and be completely ready for it. Thank you. Anuj, we've taken all the questions that the audience has asked, show the level of engagement from the quality of the question and the quantity. We have about 11 questions. I can't take more. Let me ask you my last question and let you go. What are the top five technology trends that you would like to forecast? One, two, three, whatever. That would transform businesses and marketing. Okay. So in terms of technology trends, whenever we talk about the future, it must be taken with a disclaimer that one doesn't know how soon and when and exactly in what form and shape. But let's start with an individual perspective. For each one of us who's on the call today, you know, I definitely see one clear trend, which is going to go towards variable technology gadgets, not just handheld devices and an extension of our senses, but actually variable technology experiences or even maybe a more scary phenomena, which could be even embedded, you know, technology experiences within our physical sort of body and seeing those as extensions integrated experiences that we will have beyond the five senses to use technology to enhance how you experience the world. That is looking very clearly like one trend towards individual sort of gadgets and so on. The second is, let's say, artificial intelligence related the physical sort of manifestation of that, which is in the form of say robotics, right? Where you see not just humans around the world, but you also start seeing more AI driven machines, which will look and behave in ways which are similar to us, leading to potentially smarter homes or smarter serviced homes, smarter workplaces, as well as integrated, let's say automated transport experiences. And I'm not just talking about self driven cars or planes or and so on, but you know, many other sort of machine driven experiences in the world powered by robotics. The third, the third idea I would talk about is because talking so much gadgets, right? Where is there going to be so much energy to charge them or the batteries and sustainability, because gadgets get old, how do you take them out or when you embed them in your body, you know, how do you replace them? There'll be, you know, recycling would be an issue. So sustainable energy solutions and innovations that will come that will solve the issue of battery life, make, you know, cleaner energy possible, cheaper cleaner energy. So sustainable energy related innovations and technology is another trend that I can clearly see happening. More in the sense of let's say media, because all of us are there. So, you know, in terms of media, I would say there are some clear trends which are already experienced even today, deeper online and offline journeys for consumers, right? So everything that we do today, you know, online, as well as what we do offline in the real world, you'd see a lot more integration of these online and offline experiences. It's certainly going to happen and disrupt the way retail experiences happen today offline or even how e-commerce experiences are happening online. It'll also change how we experience education online and offline healthcare, online and offline and so on. So there are several areas in the industry where the online and offline experiences will get more and more integrated. So that's a clear trend. And the fifth area which is, let's say, another very, very big trend in my opinion is entertainment, whether it is live events or whether it is gaming, creating enhanced virtual experiences where the lines between what's experienced by all of us today as the reality as we see it and the virtual reality that we will be experiencing ourselves with ourselves placed in those sort of virtual experiences that would happen, whether it is for gaming or whether it is for education learning or, you know, whether it is simulations. It could be even impacting how we travel around the world and experience places or even live events. And you can be in your safe sort of silo of your home and, you know, just be indoors, but still experience a live match at an IPL perhaps, almost like you're sitting in the stadium. So things like that where the lines between virtual reality and the physical reality as we experience it today will start getting blurred. And, you know, all of these trends will open new job opportunities, new sort of advertising media opportunities in ways that I can't necessarily visualize, but since it is talking about future trends, these are the five which I would like to, you know, conclude my sort of vision with respect to what's happening and where I clearly see, you know, these trends leading to already clear signs that this is happening now and it's not totally futuristic what I'm talking about. I think this is all very real. And today technology has made enough progress to give us a taste of all of this immediately while it will become mainstream as we go along. Thank you. And when do you think we'll achieve singularity? Will it happen in what is that evolved? Will it happen earlier? You said you put a disclaimer that no one can be 100% sure we don't know the future. But what's your sense? Singularity will happen faster than kick? Well, it is definitely moving very fast. You know, will it be good enough is what we are questioning. It's not weather. And what do you define as good enough? I think it's already good enough to, you know, start impacting some aspects of it. It's definitely going to happen. I think a decade is a good enough time to perhaps take for now and then maybe we can talk again, you know, 10 years from now and say, you know, where it is at that moment. But I think within 10 years you would start seeing, you know, various forms of it in real life experience. Brilliant. I want to thank you for this lovely conversation. And I totally enjoyed it. I'm sure all of you will enjoy it. And through our various platforms, we will repurpose and share it with you. Before I let you go, what is that one thing you tell yourself every morning? Like a favorite thought, saying, song, you know, to pet you up. Like I listen to this song called One Moment in Time by Whitney Houston. You know, and there's this song from Burning Train. It's a movie I watched when I was eight or 10 years old. Tehri has Amitira Asma. When I'm feeling low on energy or get bothered, you know, I surrender, so to say. What is it that you do when you talk to yourself on that kind of makes you calmer, hopeful, re-energized? I'm sure you're trying Om Namo Shivay. So I'm asking beyond that. Absolutely. I think, you know, something that we do as a family a lot, and we're trying to build this as a, as a consistent habit is to get up and go and look at the sun and express some gratitude that there is light and the darkness has ended and this is another day. And that's it. You know, it's as simple as that. So, you know, we have a little song for it as well, which, you know, our family has come up with our own tune for it. And maybe I'll sing it for you all another day. Thank you so much. Anuj Khanna Soham. It's been a fantastic journey that you had. It's been a pleasure talking to you. I've seen you talk about conviction. I've seen the conviction nine, ten years back. I can see it now. So we wish you luck. And I look forward to reading your biography called Who is Soham? And figure out who is Soham. But on a very serious note, I'm sure everyone who was on the video conversation benefited from it and will learn from your lessons that you shared today. We wish you luck. And we look forward to having a conversation with you again soon. Thank you. Thank you, Anurag. I totally enjoyed the questions and, you know, it's been a wonderful experience for me as well. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.