 Hey, Judy. Good morning. Yeah, happy Thanksgiving despite all the chaos in the world, right? I did a thought I almost sent you a note and I don't want to guide the group, but we usually at my table share gratitude to Thanksgiving. I think that's fairly common, but I'm feeling like we should share hope, too. Hmm. Like that. Yeah. Are you doing anything special with Thanksgiving? What's your what's your safety? No, because my daughter, who would normally normally I'd be in Kansas City at the condo there with her, which she moved into a year ago. Well, last summer. But anyway, she's in California with her boyfriend partner who hasn't they haven't been together for about seven months. So they're really happy to be together. Oh, wow. He just finished his PhD defense on last Wednesday. Oh, wow. In what? Aerospace engineering. Oh, cool. And he's been employed for two years with Capella Space. If you're not familiar with them, you should look them up and put them in your brain. Yeah, they're doing small SAR satellites, which is specific aperture radar. So it's you can see the clouds and everything and the resolution is incredible. And they've got two up now, one was sort of the prototype. Their plan is to circumvent the globe with 16. So every hour and a half, they can take a picture in a vertical slice geopolar at orbit for logistics and ground temperature and moisture levels and all kinds of really cool stuff. Very interesting. Yeah, it was a Stanford startup from a previous Stanford graduate. All the space imagery stuff is crazy. Apparently we started by Payam Banazadeh. Yeah, he's super cool. And he's been extremely supportive of Duncan's work, not only in hiring me took him as an intern, but there's a kind of messy story backstory in terms of Duncan changing advisors and taking a year off in between. That was a bold and necessary ethical decision for Duncan to make. Payam said, well, first of all, if you want to just start working full time, you can do that now. He was going to be an intern. But you know, I rotated through that lab and that's exactly why I didn't join it. Interesting. So he's super supportive. So Duncan has a family sort of a work family there that's very nice. Pete Duncan is Judy's son-in-law. Well, I hope to be son-in-law. Part of potential soon to be son-in-law. So daughter's partner who is working for Capella space. Have you heard of them? I've heard of Capella University, which is totally different. It's totally different. It's a startup company using specific apertures radar, which is the first North American company to produce that radar. And they're a super cool startup with the very ethical framework of how they want to use satellites. Love that. And you probably know your video is off, but oh, there it is. I just noticed that coming in this way is a little different. It doesn't automatically come in with your my normal setting. So thank you for telling me, but I just noticed that I was getting an invitation to come in the video. Cool. That's great. Hey, everybody. Good morning. Good morning. Giving in the middle of everything. Good afternoon. Good day. Good day. Good day, mate. I'm going to wait for Neil for that. Oh, Kapuchin. Yay. Hello. Hello, dear. Good. How are you? Excellent. Well, all things considered excellent. Yes. Okay. Where are you coming in from, Kapuchin? Where do you live? Bucharest. Bucharest, okay. Yes, Romania. So Kapuchin is one of the organizers of the Unfinished Conference that I virtually spoke at. Speaking of that, my speech is up as a post of the video itself. The whole video is not up yet. And partly that's because I have a copy of it that I haven't put up. So thanks for the reminder. Yeah. Let us know when that goes up, please. Yeah. Yeah, let us know. Are other talks available? I mean, if we register late, can we view the videos we missed? Actually, not yet because we're trying to create a platform that's a bit more long term. So we haven't posted any of them as we usually do. But it's in the plans. So as soon as they all are, I will let you know. But we're interesting way then put everything on YouTube as we usually do. Well, is that what you usually do is put it on YouTube. So if you have the link, because yeah, so we have much older talks on I can put the I will put it in our chat here. Perfect. Yeah, I'm starting to sort of bibliographic card file on my computer of talks and other things that to share with other people when the topic comes up. Good morning, Jay. Hi, Tom sheet. Hi, Klaus. Yay. And here's unfinished in my brain too, which has links to some talks. I'm afraid unfinished in my brain is just a big black hole. My brain is mostly unfinished. Hey, nice to see you. I thought you would be in like turkey prep or something. I did my turkey prep last night. Oh, really? Yeah, working ahead. I know Scott's coming on because he went in at the wrong time and called and said, I'm here, but where is everybody? And I said, remember, we changed the time. Is anybody else who's cooking a turkey doing the buttermilk turkey route? Anybody? Anybody buttermilk turkey there, Scott? I'm actually not doing a turkey because I'm in a house alone right now. So it was interesting to see that Costco didn't have a big turkey bin this year. Now, last year they had big displays of turkey, most fresh and frozen this year, nothing, because most people are in small units and it's too much to cook an entire turkey. There's apparently a shortage of small turkeys. They're faster. Yeah, more adapted. We're doing short ribs. Our local Costco had tons of turkeys. I'm doing ham and colcana and so. So I was thinking we could just reflect on gratitude and Judy said a nice practice also is to think about hope because it seems like the GSA has authorized the release of information and funds and rooms to the Biden campaign. So the Biden campaign is more or less official. For anybody who doesn't know, this little piece of goatee here is the remain. I didn't shave the weekend before the election. And then on the election, then it was pretty clear that it was going to go for a while. So for like 10 days, I had a full little beard going. And then when Trump mentioned President-elect Biden and then recanted it and said, no, no, no, but I will win the election. I basically shaved down to a goatee that included the mustache part. And then more recently, because we're getting really close, I took everything off and said, please down here. And we'll see. And go into January, you'll take off the rest. Unless I grew really fond of it. Yeah. If you need an accent to go with that, Jerry, and I just can't quite figure out which accent it is. I know. I know. And maybe a pipe. Exactly. I think Eastern European more than French. Eastern European. So I should, I should talk more like this and then like Serge from Beverly Hills Cup. There you go. The interconnection of all things is a simple thing. And yet it is so simple. Perfect. You have these down. I think maybe you should just go for this old patch look, you know. Yeah. I just, you know what? This can keep producing. It's amazing. Like crazy how versatile it is. When can you just go in straight for Grizzly Adams? I am. That's what Dick did. Sort of a groomed Grizzly Adam. So I, for one, am grateful that I don't wake up in the morning wondering what hideous tweets happened overnight and how my and our futures are being yanked in some new and dastardly direction by other people. And just the cabinet that's emerging out of, you know, the forming Biden administration gives me. So it's like insane how hopeful you can feel when you see that competent people are being put in positions of authority. You're like, Oh, wait, wait, kleptocracy might actually be gone. Now, I don't need to agree with everything they're about to do and what's happening. But just the idea that Biden is going to and carry awesome are going to reach out across the globe and reestablish relationships and go link up with people who think kind of like them. And that whole notion that we might actually get our arms around this thing is it's crazy. So I just I just wanted to start with a little bit of political social political hope. That's that's drawn through my head a lot. Along those lines, I recently watched something called the final year, which is documentary about Obama's final year in office. And it was a very moving documentary. And ultimately very depressing because we know the outcome. But it showed Kerry and I'm like, why didn't this man get elected? He is not wooden and stiff at all. He's completely animated. He's like, it's just amazing to me how he was painted in 2004 compared to the way that he actually shows up in this in this film. I have a small theory about this. As of course, I might. Has everybody heard of the OODA loop? No. So I'll explain it briefly OODA OODA, Observe Orient Decide Act. It was created by John Boyd, who was a colonel in the Air Force. And it was it was invented to describe who wins a dogfight. And he was a Korean, he shot down a couple of feet of aircraft in the Korean War, then came back into the whole bunch of researchers. Kind of a crazy guy. But Observe is we are over North Korea. That is the MiG-21. I'm in a saber. That's like Observe Orient is he can out climb and out turn me, but I can out gun and out dive him. He is probably a Korean pilot trained by the Russians, etc. You sort of play out the situation and whether you have where your advantages are. Decide is I better get out of dodge because my plane is hosed and my fastest way out is to like dive left and then act as pull the joystick and change the throttle or do whatever. So the Boyd's theory is whoever goes through the OODA loop faster wins the dogfight. Because you're constantly orienting to what's changed, what's different, where do I have the advantage, etc. In the biography of John Boyd, in the acknowledgments, there is a credit to Dick Cheney, who is the Secretary of Defense under Ford, way before he was vice president, way before, and who was a big fan of John Boyd's theories. So my little amateur theory about what happened to Kerry is that the entire right was trained in OODA loop and a bunch of other things. The right seems to understand sociology, mass psychology, a whole bunch of other things, much better than the left does. And so when you think about swift boating, flip-flopping, a whole bunch of other things, the right basically lined up a whole series of things and put them in like the tube of the launch weapon of the media that was then sort of materializing, and the modern echo chamber is a little later because we didn't have Facebook then and so forth. But we had email, so we had a bunch of stuff. And so you could see that one after the other spurious attacks, like Kerry is a decorated Vietnam hero who then was heroic by going to Congress and saying, this is a terrible war. So like a double hero, and they managed to paint him as a flip-flopper and as somebody who, whatever. So long explanation, but I think Kerry lost partly because he was defenseless against the OODA loop, used politically, if that makes sense, for what that's worth in a conversation about gratitude and hope. But I have a hope that we can start to come together over the things that need to get fixed, because there's a whole bunch of things that's broken that really needs to get fixed. Anybody else have a hope you'd like to share? Something that's been in your mind? Scott, go ahead. All right, so as always, I make a note because I want to. Anyway, so I was thinking about gratitude and this is going to be something that's something I've never shared before. So it's been profound for me. It's been something that's helped reconcile decades of life and things I've learned and things I was taught by my elders that I agreed with or disagreed with. But anyway, so I think gratitude is about context, which I had mentioned before. And for me, that context is those who came before the countless eons of people who attempted to capture and codify what they had learned. And they did the best job they could. And we're benefiting from it. We suffer from it because sometimes they get it wrong, but sometimes they get it right. And we're here instead of naked in a jungle. And I'm grateful for that. But what what I wanted to share is so Thanksgiving is a it's kind of a it's not a religious holiday, but it's based in stories of that, you know, in history for, you know, some horrible things that had happened. But there's also some good that's, you know, that's come out of it. And I wanted to offer this up, because I think it relates to our group, or at least my view of our group. And it's this metaphorical view of a higher power that I think works, depending, doesn't matter what you believe, I think it works. And like I said, it has reconciled some things for me. And I look at it as codified wisdom, and an attempt to say this is how I think things work. And I have found this out in the last couple of years. And I thought this really kind of makes sense to me. So here's the idea. The higher power is that which uses truthful speech to call into being from nothing, that which is good. So the idea is, we are divine. And you know, some people talk about being made in an image of something, because that's what we do. We bring into being things from nothing by using truthful speech. And faith, in a sense, is the belief that that's true, that using your own truthful speech will result in something, in manifesting something good, or at least not make things worse. And so that's the profound thought that I've had realized, learned over the last year and a half. And it's helped me make sense of things and the way that we can incorporate the good things of the past without bringing the bad things of the past. You know, I know that there's been a lot of bad things that have resulted from all of those religious teachings. But I look at them as attempts to explain how things work, right or wrong. And I thought I would share that. Thank you, Scott, a lot. If anybody would love to bounce on that or riff on that, please feel free. Am I okay? Yeah. Please come to it. There we go. Good. So I'll just start by saying that I'm thankful that I'm in a stable position while the lives of lots of people are kind of collapsing under their feet for no reason of their own. And I've not got sucked into the whole help about COVID. It's like I'm just hunkering down until it's all over. So, you know, I'm feeling pretty good where I am. The stuff that Scott was saying, you know, I do agree with all of that. And I find that most, oh, I'm thankful for so many people who share kind of values and who are so focused on making a change that we're all coming together to figure it all out in so many different ways and so many different places. And in this particular specific place, it's wonderful to see. And a lot of people who have kind of observed and tried and kind of observed again and tried again. They do kind of come to that same understanding that Scott's just explained to people. So I find that people that have a really high level understanding kind of have that connection with truth. And they see things in a far bigger way. Really lost you all then. So when you say something, they see it in a far bigger circle than people who maybe haven't been through that whole process. So what I want to offer is the last meeting that we had, I mentioned Jay Golden, hi Jay. The stuff that you've done around encouraging authors. So I had a look at your website. And it was just so lovely. It provided a lot of support. So what I've done is I've gone back to a series of blogs that I started writing a year ago. And I know that it's too chock full of information to really kind of read. It's got some good bits, but on the whole it kind of really needed looking at. So I went back and I've been trying to like, start again to process all the stuff. And the first blog I did, I've kind of thought, yeah, I kind of like how that sounds now. But I was having such a lot of difficulty like to get the end right. And I kept putting lots of different endings. And I kept thinking, no, that doesn't really sound right. And then today I went for a walk in the park. And I thought of a term that I want to share with you. And the term is, and it might already even exist. So tell me if it does. But it's automaton. Automaton. In what sense do you mean the term? Because it is a word. It's a word. It's an English word. Yeah. Done. Okay. The sense that I meant it was that you have people like as part of their religion, or as part of their culture, or education, or some kind of belief. They kind of do the same thing. They kind of listen to the same news or they whatever it is. So for example, they could pray every day. But they're not really connected to that truth bit that Scott was talking about. So then they pray, and then they go and do something terrible to somebody. You know, I've seen like programs where you've had people who are Hindu and they just finish prayer. And then they go off and do some awful sexual deviant thing online. Or, you know, like bombers and everything, all that kind of thing. Or you can have a prayer that is like aligned with the truth. And so then you're not being an automaton. You are being more authentic because you're kind of digging deeper than actually doing the motion. So an automaton is a piece of action, or a process, or a belief that is repeated again and again, but without looking at the meaning of it. Yeah. So what does the word automaton mean? Normally, it's a machine. It's basically automata. It's a Klaus put the Wikipedia page in the chat, so you can follow that if you want. So it's very much about a mechanical repetition through mechanical means, right? But the repetitive nature is there. Yeah, robot. Yeah, I think we're kind of in danger of just doing that. And that's why there's so much division as well. Sorry, that was really long. Oh, that was great. Just a very little thing that I found helpful because the search for what is true for yourself, for others collectively is very difficult to find. But what isn't difficult is when you say something that's not true because you know it. And so what you do I found is very helpful is that you pay attention to when you say things that aren't true for yourself. And that gradually cuts away things. And what you're left with is a smaller and smaller chunk. It's not like you try to keep finding you find the truth for yourself through elimination, in a sense. And I found that to be helpful. I can. So I kind of kind of go in a little different direction. I actually sat down yesterday, I thought, okay, I'm going to be on this call. I don't want to just do the usual off the top of my head things I'm grateful for that I do everything's giving. So I sat down and I wrote a few things. And I'm just going to pull that up here. And the poem that ended up being called In A World Where Many Are. In a world where many are without shelter, I am grateful for my home. In a world where many are starving, I am grateful for my food each day. In a world where many are succumbing to the pandemic, I am grateful for my health. In a world where many are financially distressed, I'm grateful for the work I've had. In a world where many are despairing, I am grateful for the strength to carry on. In a world where many are unguided, I'm grateful for my teachers. In a world where many are choosing ignorance, I am grateful for daily learning. In a world where many are led astray by misinformation, I am grateful for my discernment. In a world where many are polarized by politics, I am grateful for my equanimity. In a world where many are weeping, I am grateful for my laughter. In a world where many are lost, I am grateful for my sense of meaning and direction. In a world where many are cynical, I am grateful for my sense of wonder and curiosity. In a world where many are disconnected, I am grateful to be part of an ancestral line. In a world where many are isolated, I am grateful to the communities where I belong. In a world where many are inflated, I am grateful to be humbled. In a world where many are hateful, I am grateful for those who've taught me to love. In a world where many are afraid, I am grateful for my courage. In a world where many are stuck, I am grateful for my fluidity. In a world where many are lonely, I am grateful for my friends. In a world where many are unloved, I am grateful for my wife. In a world where many see horrors, I am grateful for the beauty around me. In a world where many are empty, I am grateful to feel so fulfilled. In a world where many are crippled by life's wounds, I am grateful to still be standing. In a world where many are unhappy, I am grateful just to be alive. Okay, thank you. Let's just sit with that for a second. Let's be silent for a moment. I'll bring us back up. Thank you. It's from listening, thanks for providing that space. It's lovely also, just when you focus on what you've got and how you're grateful for it and the contrasts in there and all of those things and the hopefulness that comes out of it. Thank you. It's really focusing. Charles, go ahead. I wanted to offer something that I shared at Kiko Lab on Monday in the Harvest Festival. It's quite short. I just can thank you and I appreciated the space and the energy that you brought us into and there was a word in there, fluidity. So picking up from that theme of fluidity and flow, this is by watching me. Some of you have heard this before. It's about water. It's a commentary from his version of the I Ching and it's from Hexagram 29. Water always takes the lowest position. Obstacles do not hinder it. It accommodates whatever is in its path and continues to flow forward. It never loses its direction. By remaining low, it follows its true nature and its fundamental direction is not influenced by superficial obstructions. Water is always ocean bound, seeking to reunite with the whole. To follow the way of water is to return to one's spiritual essence. Thank you, Charles. And I'm thankful for all of you and certainly Lauren and Kiko Lab and Pete and Collective Sense Commons and the list gets really long. I've been sharing a little bit in the chat on Mattermost for OGM calls. I can't type directly into the chat. Things that I have in my map and stuff, but there's a few other things that I'm going to share. There's a song, Sly and the Family Stone, Thankful and Thoughtful. It's a beautiful tune. And lastly on the subject of harvest, I'll put the link, again, some of you might have seen the Harvest Jam Miro board from Kiko Lab. It's kind of an explosion of harvesting, a bit chaotic, but everybody's welcome. And there was a podcast that was published actually Monday, the same day as the Harvest Party, an interview with me for two hours going through my history and past a lot of music stories. I'm going to put that link in the Mattermost also. It's a pretty fun listen. Thanks. Thank you. And Pete just put a link to the Mattermost. If you, he has started a chat for us, excuse me, and Mattermost is a Slack-like tool but more open. So we have an OGM Mattermost instance. If you follow that link, there's also a macOS app and there's a bunch of apps you can use to do it as well. So we're trying to figure out how to shift our Zoom chats over there. And also, as Charles was talking, I was realizing that I'm grateful for the intertubes and the idea that we can communicate at zero marginal cost globally and the idea that we're sitting here in little rectangles in a moment of pandemic isolation where we can actually see each other and hear each other and make funny gestures and, you know, give each other virtual hugs and high fives across the boundaries of the little rectangles. And exactly, exactly. I'm just very happy that this is even possible. Go ahead, Jay. So I've been kind of brewing or feeling the brewing of a little Thanksgiving riff. If you don't mind. Somebody's typing right now that I can hear. Yeah. There's somebody typing in the back. If everybody else could mute. Thanks. So. Looking at Thanksgiving. And the history of Thanksgiving. It's clear that it's heavily mythologized. There's no, there's not really much question to that if you just take five seconds to look at it. And, and I'm kind of looking at that like that's okay. But I'm not going to go into that in this moment that, that, that I accept the, the mythology, and then I kind of step deeper and realize and feel into the, the idea of leaving one's land. Because you are oppressed because of what you believe. Because of what your spiritual beliefs are in your practices. Needing to travel across the seas. Setting off across the waters to a place that you have never been have no idea about only barely hear threads of stories. And making it there. Heading into a winter that you could never imagine with no structures available. People living in this place that are foreign to you that have a strange language and strange practices, and being able to arrive there and receive enough guidance and insight from those people that live there and those people that have traveled with you that you could figure out how to find salmon and how to find beaver and have enough space and time to build structures and making it through a year. Or a winter even where nearly half of you of your group that you've traveled with all this time is buried and dead, dead and buried. And that there are people are so sick that there are so few people that can even bury them that kind of feeling that heaviness of looking around and seeing such devastation and such loss heavily on my heart as I as I feel into this and and still the power of making one's way into through that winter, somehow and into that spring, and then receiving the insight from those local inhabitants of this land, who had their own perhaps intense of aligning with you because of local tribal battles, but nonetheless receiving this gift of corn, this seed of this new entirely new plantable entity that you are you learn how to put it in the ground, and you learn how with whomever knows how to plant and to tend this corn and the other foods that you are able to plant and then still not having much for eating still barely understanding how to be with so much death around you and making your way through the summer and making your way through the fall, where these sprouts have come up, and they begin to grow to the degree that we can actually eat them, and we can actually honor this place that we live and this bounty of survival on this planet that is carried for us and our ancestors for since the beginning of the beginnings and receiving that bounty and honoring in whatever way possible those inhabitants that are around you that are so foreign those other beings that almost seem interspecial almost different types of beings and yet somehow finding a way to appreciate and interact and have some exchange, even to the degree that years and years and years and decades and centuries later, the gifts are still there barely able for us to hold them in our hands, but to hold them with preciousness the gifts of living on this earth the gifts of receiving from our ancestors and from those around us, and that these sprouts keep coming still. And so, for me, I feel like this is a time of immense Thanksgiving, and also immense thanks grieving to feel the depth of trial and sorrow around us and also behind us and and also some concerns for sure about what grieving lies ahead of us, but with the recognition of that Thanksgiving and also a little peppering of some thanks that gets things moving as we're in this epic giving and so for me I am. I've decided that this needs more than a day. And so, today I am beginning a journey and inviting anyone else who'd like to consider such a journey to hold in whatever way you feel right to me this is a year of Thanksgiving, and I'm going to practice that thanks every day. And thanks and a little bit probably a fair bit of thanks grieving and and also an ample amount of thanks grooving. The girls can be a very good supplier of tracks for the same thanks grooving. Thank you, Jay. Thank you. That's that's a beautiful way of seeing the transition moment that we're in and contextualizing it. Thank you. I think go ahead. Well, I don't want to sound too over eager but I'll be the first to jump on that year long journey with you there Jay. I say that because I woke up this morning and just kind of immediately started reflecting on where I was at one year ago. Today, like, November 26. Well I say November 26. I don't know if Thanksgiving was on November 26 last year but it was on Thanksgiving of last year. And I remember that day very distinctly because I woke up feeling very, I was just in a much today I woke up feeling like very grateful and very full of hope and you know not able to know the path forward but at least be able to see and understand the possibility that there was one. Last year I can say that I was in the exact opposite place. Without getting into the details it was just probably one of the darker times of my life that would just extended for a long period of time and you know with the help of a lot of family and friends, you know turned around and got through it and as you guys know from probably your own personal experiences. Those those dark nights can last quite a long time even though there are lights on, you know. And so I just I woke up today and was just kind of like wow, this is crazy. I, and I usually kind of start my, I take the last month of every year just to be really reflective and just think, what did I do what did I like what did I not like how can I change etc right. And to, you know, I felt the same pull that you did though I didn't necessarily articulated that way of like, I can't limit myself to this year and let let this all just fall fall into the wash, you know. And so, so I'll jump on that on that train. And I do just I want to share I think two reflections that will be that'll be quick I think one is on, you know some of the stuff that that Scott that you brought brought up. I agree with a lot of what you said. And I think that my only additional kind of reflection would that would be for me that it's interesting that I you know I've been kind of just trying to read a lot of just other just text as we've talked about indigenous knowledge to really kind of dig into what have been around the world throughout time and history set about things and you know it's interesting the things you pick up on and I feel like you know you kind of pick up on two things. One is everybody has some kind of good in them and two is everyone has some kind of, there's some kind of fundamental flaw in our nature right and it's interesting to see how these ideas pop up, and then how humans build structures around them that are built on these ideas, but only serve to reinforce our own vision images of ourselves, and therefore, you know, the original message gets so distorted and covered and blanketed by these manifestations of that idea that simply seek to solidify, you know, here's what the world should be, and the hierarchy of power that should exist, based on this seed of an idea. And it's, and it's, it's a challenge I think to challenge yourself and challenge other people to think differently about that and really get to the root of what people mean. I think the second thing I've been thinking about a lot recently is the golden rule and Jerry are very early on in one of our discussions that we had you challenge the you know the typical interpretation of the golden rule which taken at face to face just like do you want others as you would have do unto you and I'm like well, if I want pie and I give someone else pie who get who cares about that right. I recently listened to something that kind of flipped it on its head which was imagine that you wanted the best for yourself at every moment of every day, and wanted to do the thing for yourself that would lead to your own flourishing and just and then imagine if you wanted the same for other people and did the same for other people. And I think just given the backdrop of everything that's been happening to. It has been something just a thought that has really kind of pulled me out of being defensive and being in zones or even just states of like egoic states of mind where I've just been like well, this is how I think and this is how I think you should and just kind of pausing and being like well, you know, how can I really show up and and how would I treat myself in a kind and gentle way or loving way or whatever. In this moment and it's been, it's been honestly so liberating and not restrictive. So, that's it. Thank you. Hank, thank you so much. You're reminding me of a sort of a mental journey I did back then when we spoke and before that which was, I was sort of looking around for what do different cultures say about instructions for running society. Right, like, how are these things encoded or buried in culture and religion and, and so forth. And I was, I was having a hard time finding good ones and the one I just that I'll just go straight to the punch line which is the one I love the one I picked up and kept is from Chick-Nut Han, which is deep listening and loving speech. And to me, the deep listening means stepping inside of your life as best I can, and thinking through as I listen with optimism and, and, you know, assuming good faith, for example, but but thinking through what would make your life flourish. That's what you just said. And then the loving speech has a lot to do I think with what Scott said earlier which is truthful speech, and I'm wondering what the intersection between those two things is, because they're not the same at all. And they could be and they might be, and I'm interested in when they would coincide because that would be kind of cool if truthful speech was in fact always loving speech or, or could be loving speech I think that'd be really interesting. So those two guidelines are my favorite instructions for, for running the world. And to get to that topic, sometimes I ask people what the second commandment is of the 10 Commandments which is its own little quiz show that we can do some other time but Scott go ahead. And I'm thinking about that as well, because when I've told people about truthful speech the very first thing they obviously is. Well, either nothing is true from the kind of nihilist standpoint, or, well, these are the bedrock truths there are bedrock truths and, and that's the other side and I think your intersection between love and truth is what I was referring to at the beginning when I was saying the countless people before us who have attempted to collect and codify their wisdom was through conversation and alignment and listening to each other and saying, you're saying this. I'm saying this, neither one of us is 100% correct. And that's the, that's the assumption and that is a loving posture. That is saying I want to hear your truth. And the opposite is you want to hear my truth. That's a great situation because we're realizing that the truth is something that we are co creating. That so I see those as as intertwined when you are able to be open. And essentially getting to truth requires you to be open to in having that that love for both the other person in their perspective, and also the love for moving to, you know, I think we just got it a little bit better. It's just something about that that's just a little bit better and I don't know as we ever get there. But it just, it's that to making a third kind of thing. I think there's something else as well in the whole equation. And that is an absence of truth or an absence of information. I mean, I can't tell stories like Jay, but there was somebody who's very highly regarded in circles of kind of police studies in England who gave a talk at a zoom thing that I was there. And so he talked a lot about COVID. And then he mentioned the military industrial complex very fleetingly like, oh, you don't need to worry about that. They're just a bunch of people doing the best they can. And I thought, that's not true. It's just not true. So, you know, I said when he'd finished his speech, I kind of thanked him. I said, you know, enjoyed the points that he'd made. But at the end of the day, he'd concentrated a lot on COVID, which at some point, you know, we're going to tackle COVID and we're going to get over it and it's just like a version of flu or pneumonia with teeth or whatever. But I said the point that you made about the military industrial complex. You know, I said that I can't see how you can tackle peace without looking at that really much more closely. And that I've been to peace events. And although it's nice to hear poetry and truth in that sense. Unless you actually start to show people some of the mechanisms and tools that are used in terms of trade agreements and everything else that's kept from us so that we don't actually know all the things that are creating conflict in the war. You know, we're never ever going to get there are we. So I just asked him the question, like, why is it that you don't ever go into these things when you're tackling subject to peace. And then what happened was we lost the connection completely. Clearly it was the military industrial complex had overheard you and intercepted that conversation less that a question actually get answered. Exactly. Yeah, so you know there's these interesting relationships from truth and loving speech but if you just ask somebody like can you explain this to me. See what they say. Yeah. You know something fate you know zoom does put the finger in from time to time. They censored an event that NYU on on censorship. For example. So I don't know just just just to throw that in the mix. That's interesting. Yeah, there was a magazine show on ABC, yesterday that showed some examples of people who are really struggling and hurting, but they are, but still putting on a sense of a front of normalcy. One of the story was that the most important question to ask at this time is, are you okay. I'm just saying, are you okay. And that simple question is just is just opening up a floodgate of of things that people are struggling with because when you look at the sheer numbers of, I think it's like 43 million people at the risk of eviction in November. You know you look at millions of jobs that are just gone. They are the automated or they are just simply not needed anymore to get airlines and so on. There's a lot of pain out there and I think the best way to deal with this is just to allow this question. Are you are you okay. There was an op ed in yesterday the day before his newspaper on the 25th I guess yesterday's by Megan Markle Duchess of Sussex with exactly that phrase in it. I mean it was weird, it's really really interesting and it's a beautiful op ed it's really worth with reading, and it describes her miscarriage. And a reporter asking her afterward you know are you okay not knowing I don't think you knew about the miscarriage but just what an important question that is for everybody. Ed did you want to jump in. Yeah. Gotta find the unmute unmute button first there you go. Yes, there we go. Thanks Jerry for inviting me in here and thanks all this is my first time on this call, although I do know Jerry from the retreats and long time internet stuff. I want to share a word from language that's was spoken and still is spoken here in Michigan, Ojibwe. It's the word migwetch which is thanks. It's really the only word of Ojibwe that I learned, although having grown up in Michigan and having a lot of place names that have local words like Michigan which means Great Lake or Michigami which is a big lake or Michigas no that's a different word. But just like you pick up words as you go or you pick up fragments of words and migwetch is interesting. I did some work for a tribe here in the state that was building a solar energy plant power plant power and heat part of their hotel fascinating project fascinating organization to work with and the solar installation is still there and still generating power although I'm not working on it anymore. And you know the sort of odd things that you find yourself doing not necessarily knowing what it's going to turn into. Very, very thankful for that opportunity because as it turned out it came from a simple question I was able to ask a friend of mine and we were trying to have lunch together coffee I think and perpetually having trouble scheduling. And finally we get to sit down at a cafe and my colleague was describing what he was doing and how busy he was and I said is there anything I can do to help. And he said sure and that was a job and that job turned into enough of an income to be a primary income and then enough of a springboard towards other things to be a direct result of what I'm doing now. So you know I want to give thanks for questions for asking all you have to do is ask sometimes as the ask for something ask about someone ask how to do something not assume that you're assumed to know how to do things. And asked to speak up and Jerry I love that the zoom format gives us a quiet back channel. So I don't have to try to shout over people to be heard, which is really lovely. And, and thanks to all of you for for being here. And I'm going to drop at the top of the hour so I'll be here for a bit and then and then I'll drop silently. Thanks. Make watch and a glitch. Thank you. Judy. I was just reflecting on kind of the connection between gratitude and hope. The sense of despair that many of us have felt at times in the past few years with the state of things. And it took me back to a favorite old poem of mine by Gibran. That says that your joy is your sorrow unmasked. The greater that the sorrow carves into your being, the more joy you can contain. And then some other similar poems that he's written, but I find myself reflecting on how to move forward, more than how to recall the unpleasantness of the past, except that it shapes how you move forward. And part of it for me right now is that so many people are so distressed for all the reasons that have already been mentioned that I've been finding in every meeting with people the first question is sort of how are you doing. And we frequently don't get very far beyond that because the question next to me is how can I help. What I love about this community that's so unique and special is the passion around the connection of those two that everyone in the group feels and the ability to see the hard truths and see the opportunities that can bring us out of those hard truth. And the desire to share it very widely with everyone else. So I think if we can pull off what we're dreaming of doing. We can in a small way be the start of a spreading network of happiness that reaches a lot more. That would be lovely from your lips to God's ears to. That would be really great. Charles, go ahead. I just want to offer a question and kind of go out on a limb slightly. And this is regarding the real intent behind for intent but actually really wanting to know the answer to that question of how you're doing. And this is like a cultural thing that I'm hesitant to say it's uniquely American and it's probably not. But in contrast, I'm here in Switzerland, but and my mom's from Denmark and I spent time growing up in Scandinavia and I think there's differences in and a lot of nuance in those kind of. It's not even conversation is a small talk it's sort of, you know, fundamental of society and social interaction. But in some places they actually don't really want to know. And you start to say, Oh, well, you want to you tell them how you're really doing. And if it's not like, Oh, great, then they don't want to hear it. So I just want to throw that in the mix as kind of contrast. I think American about it but I think it should be it could be universal, but it's not that way everywhere where you really want to know. It's a, it's a really deep cultural question because in some cases it's a perfunctory. It's a, you know, how are you and, and in many cultures, that degree of intimacy of actually saying what's on your mind is something you doing with a friend it's something you don't do with an acquaintance or a business colleague or whatever else their their actual social barriers there, you know to keep that from happening. And I've been in a bunch of cultures that are that are like that and then, and then in the US it's often just sort of passed away and hands off, but in the US we also have this strange opening of you could just sort of dump and say well actually because this this this and then and we have maybe more social leeway to go ahead and do that than many cultures on earth would in different ways. Klaus then she Moan then Scott. Yeah, I was 26 years old when I came to the United States, and I'm born and raised in Germany and educated in Germany. When I came when I first started here you go to the grocery store and the cashier asked you how are you today. And at first I was, I mean I was compelled to, yeah, that's a weird question to ask me in the grocery store. Yeah, so I'll tell you finally acquiesce and okay it's completely meaningless phrase. And so asking, how are you I think has to be combined with the body language, you know that that conveys intent and serious and seriousness. Thank you Klaus, she won. Firstly, I'm grateful to be part of this conversation and occasionally participating with the group. I guess as a psychiatrist I get paid to ask how you're doing. But more interestingly to me and something I'm grateful for right now is kind of getting much more in touch with the biases and the privileges that I have given my background and position in society. Years ago, four years ago they're so like a genre of books about is America becoming fascists and things of that kind, certainly resonated with me, given that both my parents were first in jail in Poland, and then in under Nazi Germany and then in Russia and things of that kind. So it's certainly a very close to my history and my essence, and certainly gets my attention in terms of what's going around. But more recently I've been noticing that there's a sort of a new genre of books, looking at, you know, why we're polarized. And more recently the book by Rabbi sacks about morality, the book by Sandler, the book by George platinum, which I'll talk about the difficulty of the I versus we. And I think a more meaningful question in my mind, again to promote the sense of flourishing is to recognize that how are you doing is not going to get us to flourishing as a society and as individual and I think the question that we continuously is how are we doing, and what can we each be doing to achieve. Essentially, I think J start talking about, you know, like the initial Thanksgiving, but clearly in my mind one of the more revolutionary aspects of America, and something I'm very grateful for is that whole notion of the declaration of independence, as well as then the Constitution with all its flaws. So I think that perhaps the question should be how are we doing, and how are you doing as part of it, and what can we all do to sort of like make sure that we all right at where essentially our collective journey as a nation, and I would imagine as a Western more civilization suggests that we do. Another thing I'm very grateful for is more recently, I've been exposed to a lot of non Western ideological philosophers like from India, and you know like China and Southeast Asia. And it's amazing the gap that I feel I mean I'm so like in my late 60s, looking to retire soon from my professional career, where it was all about so like trying to understand people's mental, you know, being and you know mental spheres and things of that kind, yet very very little exposure to other cultural kind of amazing rich, you know ways of looking at the world. So I'm grateful for the opportunity to explore and means moving forward. And I think I'm very grateful about and I think this is sort of like a little part of it is a whole notion of rituals, and what I'm hoping to do actually based on some suggestions from Rabbi sex and other people is to start what I call rituals of American Americanism. Again, it doesn't have to be the United States but it's more the mind or frame of mind of how do we create what Jerry you said like how do we live in a community society, where everyone can flourish. So that's what I'm working on right now. And if you're interested I can sort of post a link to that work. And thank you for sharing your story I find it, I find it sort of poetic that your last name is sort of bird in the forest. Yeah. Thank you for for the five different things you just woke up in my head. Scott, do you want to go ahead. No, good. Yes. Yeah, well it was I was looking for the thing I wanted to. So, this is an interesting lead up to what I was going to say and I think it's, it fits well so I was challenged in the Facebook group to say give me three words better than I love you. And there was a lot of, you know, stuff in there and here's what came to mind and I'm just going to read it directly because I thought it through. So, tell me more. So, tell me more. So I've said, sincerely and enthusiastically it embodies, I love you in a much deeper and more profound way. It's about your interest in them as they are, not in what they are to you, or can do for you. It's the gift of time and space for someone to share their story, their thoughts their desires their concerns with you. It's also not intrusive, because it's simply asking them to continue what they're already, they've already begun sharing. It works for your closest relationships and it works for people you just met. So I think there's nothing more loving than welcoming someone to continue sharing more of themselves simply by saying, tell me more. That's wonderful. Do you have that. Have you posted that any place. And, and if you, if you haven't, would you and would just send us a link that's really because it was just a little comment but there you are so I will. It's really nice. Ken, go ahead. I'll just tag on that for a second. That actually was a turning point for a client of mine. I took a professional coaching course 20 years ago and then I was hired by that company to work for them and and one of their students was not pouring up he was not going to make the certification and so I coached him and I very quickly realized that he had this habit of before I could finish a paragraph. And he jumped in and say, Oh, so it's like this. And so it's okay when she didn't notice what happens when you do that what's going on in your body right and just observe that for a while and then he said, Yeah, I get. I have this energy in my body. I said, Okay, so now that you know what that's happening. That's happening. So it's like this, say, tell me more about that. And that made an enormous difference in his in his ability to coach. He came back to me two weeks later said, I can't believe what people are telling me now I'm learning so much more about folks because that wanting to contribute by telling what you know, I'm the other person, but opening up and saying, Oh, that's interesting. Tell me more about that invites them to say more and then they reveal more and they feel more connected so it is a really powerful. Akita move to move from let me tell you what I understand to why don't you tell me more about what you understand. Love that there turns out there's a book titled or several books title tell me more. Thank you want to jump in. Thank you for moving class. Yeah, I mean coming back to the topic of Thanksgiving. I think this has been such an incredible year where technology has completely altered our life. I mean the intersection between the virus and soon for example, has just changed how we function. I don't think we'll ever return to normal. Going forward. I mean, I must have participated in a dozen conferences that I would have not been able to attend this year for no cost and travel and time and so on. The connectivity is, it has become normalized, you know, it has become normal to jump on a phone call on a zoom call. And I find myself working across a range of of topics and groups where it's like sitting in an office and you jump over to talk to someone or you have scheduled regular meetings and so on. It's an amazing revolution in communication, you know, in how we in how we function. And so in it come global, you know, now they are they are the last speaker but participated in a conference with the United Nations called sustainable innovations for simply incredible. Prince Charles at the last day was focused on food, Prince Charles and trusted Governor Newscombe was speaking. And the topic for next year, which I'm amazingly thankful for is going to be food. The United Nations Global Summit 2021 is focused on our food from production to consumption, bringing awareness, you know, of the impact of food on nature. So, I mean, I think this is going to be a revolution, I think 2021 is going to be a revolution happening I think 2020 was the staging for that, and it's going to happen in 2021. I love the idea that Kerry is leading climate change. I mean, he's the guy who negotiated the Paris agreement. So we have wonderful people in place and the energy is just amazing. So I'm just all jazz. Lots of jazz in the air right now. Before I go to today just one thing which is, I just want to put in the room the idea of being grateful for Trump and the Trump apocalypse. And I'm, I try to find silver linings and things sometimes and the Trump apocalypse has been horrible to a lot of people, but it also showed us how broken. We were before without actually surfacing or talking about or dealing with these issues. The systemic racism, the analogy I use a bit is that Trump was like a magnet run over the beach and all the iron filings just stood up and said oh here I am. You know, the white nationalists and everybody else said oh it's okay to come out and speak so let's go speak. So, so now we know kind of who and where these these folks are and we have an opportunity. So listen to them to talk to them to sort of form a community together with them to figure out what is it that's behind all these thoughts and, and in some days I feel like that's an impossible task. There's no way to get around it and, and some days I feel like the impossible sometimes melts. And, and sometimes those state changes are rapid instantaneous that they just they just happened because because of something like deep listening, or because of something like some felt experience not some thought experience. I'm trying to figure all that out and then I added the word can suki, which is basically a Japanese cultural practice where you mend broken vases and other things with gold. So that the mended item in its imperfection is more beautiful, or still beautiful or differently beautiful than the original item. I think that we can practice can suki on our country in the world at this point because it's very broken in so many ways, but if we apply sort of loving gold and solder to the places where the cracks are. I think we have lots of opportunities here. Jay go ahead. Thank you everyone for a beautiful morning. The ending of the cracks connects to me to this idea of, there's the beauty of Scott said the speaking of truth, the clear speaking from center, the aligning with center and speaking through that your truth. And then there's the openness or your clarity, and then there's the place where that truth my truth meets your truth. And it's there that we have witnessed so much of our, in a way so much connection in a way so much disconnection. And I feel like part of the, the task as I see it of this group is to, to heal those cracks through the kind of the golden weaving the, the artistry, the interconnectivity from so many different sides to be able to recognize that it's just not enough to have to to truths in total opposition, if that continues to be reinforced and so this immersive, you know, part of what is broken I watched a little Greta last night, Greta documentary. And, you know, getting a wider scope on her words not just sound bites was valuable for me and I think that part of it is just like taking a step back and realizing, again, that we do have a future that's been that that's just broken in parts and that part of the process is to catalyze experiments catalyze visions catalyze actual possibilities and step towards it in an immersive way speaking from our truth that orient us together to a place where there is a seat for everyone at the table that we're setting. I just a quick. Go ahead. Love love that Jay and I think that was a much better articulation and what I was saying earlier when I was presenting that idea to people and they were saying that here was the truth. And as opposed to what I think you articulated was here's where my truth and your truth meet and probably overlap a little. And let's focus on those, and then bring in another overlap and another overlap and it allows for the other. And which walks us right back into OGM territory in a funny way because a piece of what I'm hoping OGM can do is help us express the truths we hold in ways that are safe for us and visible to others. And so that we might be able to set our different versions of truth next to each other and poke at them a little bit and experiment with them and try each other's on and borrow from each other's truths and soften our own and evolve them over time. And it's a really huge piece of what I think is possible here and it's a way that I use the brain it's like I'm trying I'm trying to figure out what is this most succinct way I can express my belief system and the evidence for and against it other people's belief systems and all that in this weird little mind map. And, and I don't know where it goes but it's but it's actually thrilling like it's it's really, it's really thrilling. So, you know, tell me more. I put it in my brain while you were talking and, and I started looking and started thinking because I have Meghan Markle's essay are you okay I put that in, because it was a great essay and I was like, great simple question and I put are you okay under great questions. So, tell me more goes under great questions. And there's a whole bunch of other stuff on great questions as well. So, so how do we step into this and forward through this and in the way that we're working here as a as a community of practice is, I think, a really nice, nice question. Anyone who hasn't jumped into the conversation yet want to jump in and put something on the table or reflect on something cup of tea and please. Yes. Just more of a reflection and perhaps a question that touches a little bit on the cultural aspects we're talking about earlier with the hello how are you question and Thanksgiving because I had my first Thanksgiving when I was 19, I think, I was grown up in the US, and I was amazed at the very simple on her experience before a cultural celebration that was only about giving thanks, only about appreciating each other, and each other's time in the same space and if you think about it, Christmas or weddings or New Year, it's, there's always, you know, gifts or there's a religious component and, of course, there are some historical aspects that we also touched on in Thanksgiving that that have their own problems but in in terms of practice and ritual, it was really humbling and and something very powerful. I myself at that time, where I was going to have something Thanksgiving wherever I am and I hope to host a dinner or whatnot and this year is the first time I failed, I suppose, because I didn't manage to get, you know, organize anything. And there are other years in the US where I've had such surprises I didn't have any plans and always there was a family I would even meet that day would be like what are you doing this evening. Oh, come at our place and, you know, really really this this spirit of trust and gratitude. And just while we were on this call somebody that I know from the US do you have fun. I just wanted to share this first of all feeling that I've had as an outsider in the US and, and then perhaps ask this question if, if I'm correct or not in thinking that there's no comparison, maybe of any of you know in other cultures of really celebrating just gratitude and recognition. I don't, I don't have something that matches that but my idea of Halloween was changed dramatically when I went to Oaxaca. And stated, oh yeah, through Dia de los Muertos, because the idea of trick or treat and funny costumes that like trick or treat is like it's very weird thing. And then, you know, in Dia de los Muertos you go to visit the graves of your ancestors, if Uncle Juan loved to, it's a mescal you put some mescal on his grave and drink some mescal. And you have flowers and candles and you taught until stories and wait for the spirits of your ancestors to sort of pass on through and be acknowledged and to me it was it was gratitude for their existence that was a piece of that which is a smaller piece of what I'm talking about couple team, but but it really reframed Halloween for me so Halloween is not the same in my head for me it's a it's a form of ancestral gratitude that I do but I don't does anybody else know of other practices. Apparently nobody's doing this this seems like a hole in the holiday calendar that could be well filled worldwide. I think from the Christian tradition is it's all saints day and what's interesting to me is that it's a cross quarter day so you know we have. We have two solstices and two can oxes we have the spaces between or equally between solstice and equinox and. So these are really based on ancient pagan rights but all saints day was the Christian way of, of honoring of the Adelaus Muertos of, instead of your ancestors going to be the ones that we've elevated to heaven right and so you're supposed to pray to your favorite saints so it's a it's a really. It's interesting how these things over time get very they lead very far away from their origins, you know, of, and the Celts say that that Halloween or it's so we saw me and I think it's I'm not sure how to say it but that's the time when the veil between the and that's when we're able to actually you spend time in the cemetery because that's when you're able to make the most connection with your ancestors. Yeah, like for good even exactly. I was Charlie and Brigadine. The German culture it's called enter the enter dunk face. It means thanking for the harvest. That was a big thing until we all moved into cities and lost the connection with the agricultural and rural environment but it's it's pretty much the same thing as Thanksgiving just just originating from a different premise. Mm hmm. Thanks. Anybody else want to jump into us and Jane. And just I think it's true and about this being maybe a holiday that we all celebrate. And again I think maybe part of the reason why that's relatively distinct is because a lot of the more ancient cultures would do this every day. In some form. I mean, you know, sense allotation is a good example. And Namaste is a really good example. Yeah, exactly. And just being being grateful for for as a practice as a way of approaching people and place and things. And one of the things about quicker practices that they think that God is in everyone and and then other other practices think God is in everything, you know, anonymous practices and others. And what I what I like about that a lot is that it creates a reverence in interaction. And so one of the reasons why traditional old school Quakers use. The main speak which is the V and now is that they're actually addressing each other as holy as a sacred as as like God like that's the reason for for saying V and now and I've never had a conversation with a Quaker. Who said who used the end now, but it's a but it's sort of this charming charming old practice that was meant to say to elevate the person you're talking with. That way. So, go ahead. Well I was younger when I went to school at primary school we used to always say grace before we had food. And that's died down that whole practice of saying grace, although kind of when you repeat it becomes like an automaton anyway I guess. And also we used to have harvest festival very much like. And we don't have harvest festival anymore really and I guess it's something to do with everything's available all the time now anyway. So there's not kind of so much of a harvest sense to things. And instead it's been replaced by Black Friday now it's like go to the shops and buy lots of stuff. It's true. Thanks Hank. And thanks everybody who has to drop off will just go a few more minutes and then wrap ourselves. Yeah we've we've totally commercialized all these things and replace the sense and so much of, I mean, ritual came up in this call, and I think ritual can be somewhat ton practice if it's only repetitive thing you just happened to do, and it can be deeply connective spiritual practice if your intention is in it and you're seeing it for maybe the best of what it could be. Because some rituals I don't fully understand why anybody would do those things anyway but still. And then there's some rituals that are actually kind of kind of brutal around the world. So, you know, there's still rituals that are that are held up female general mutilation is a ritual practice in in the Arab part of Africa, which is just horrible. And, you know, attempts to eradicate it are succeeding but slowly. So, so there's a whole, and, and that is a ritual that has staying power because people who aren't circumcised are seen as unmarriageable so it basically breaks the whole way the society works. Oh, good. Thank you, Ken. So, before we wrap this call we should have some a bright note of some sort, or, or just be mindful of one another and in this space we've created. And as we move forward, can do you want to jump in. Yeah. Somewhere in the last week or so. This idea of not just gratitude but also praise came up in a conversation or something I was reading. And it made me think of the, the band Morrison song, you know, at the end of the day we give thanks and praise to the one but I know what it was I reason I'm reading this book called Compassionate Conversations and they suggest as a guideline for conversations to offer praise to people. And so I want to praise the people in this group. There's so much talent there's so much genius. There's so much goodheartedness. There, there's just so much, so much that you know I mean I get teary eyed thinking of this particular community and the people that I've met here and the, the, the way that we come together and support each other and finding a way through to make a difference. It's very, very meaningful and uplifting to me. And so I want to I want to praise each of you that shows up here when you show up and that's different than thankfulness. I mean I really feel a sense of my heart opening, and, and the cells in my body being energized by knowing that I'm going to be with everybody here so my praise for the day. Thank you so much. That's really beautiful. And I think I think our hearts are with that as well. Thank you. I have a feeling that's a really lovely place to wrap our Thanksgiving call. So why don't we do that. And everybody enjoy enjoy your day or holiday or weekend, we will talk shortly. Thank you. Thank you all very grateful for this be Thanksgiving wherever you are. Stay safe. Exactly. Good day. Thanks everyone. Happy Thanksgiving. And much love. Yes. And, you know, I had a had a flash the other day that actually was from an old poster that I've been harvesting interoperability is love. Or maybe it's the other way around. Yeah, however you want us to, you know, flip that good coin closing comments. Thank you. That's funny because I say reduce complexity to reduce suffering. I think that that's in the, in the lines there. Oh, I can. Yeah. Nice. Pete and I are going to be talking about that a couple of days. Hey. All right. Thanks everyone. Good to see you all. Thank you. Thank you.