 Now, for many, the wearing of the red poppy is a way of commemorating those who died in war. But for some, the red poppy is seen as glorifying war, not just those who were killed. And this year, many are wearing a white poppy instead. So could this be the most politicised Remembrance Day yet? Well, to discuss that, I'm joined from central London by James Butler from Navarra Media and love sport radio presenter Patrick Christis. Welcome to you both. Mr Butler, to you first. Do you feel that this has been hijacked by politics and is that appropriate? I don't think it's been hijacked by politics. I think it's right to say that the decision of who we remember and how we remember them is itself a political decision. I don't think you can extract politics from questions of war and why war happened and how war happened. I think it's important to remember not only the military dead, the British military dead, which is what the red poppy is for, but to remember the many conscientious objectors, many of whom were stretcher bearers who lost their lives, many of the people who who died in prison for objecting to war. And I think it's really important to ask those questions and remember the many people who came back from the trenches or died there and who wrote that it was a senseless conflict who found very little that was glorious in war. And those are people and those are perspectives, perspectives which I share that I think are hugely important to remember around this time. And I'm afraid I find them very often missing in media conversation around this. Do you ever wear a poppy? I don't wear a red poppy. I would occasionally wear a white poppy. I have a white poppy in my jacket pocket. In fact, I'm not wearing it on air at the moment. And Patrick Christis, let's bring you in. What do you make of that? Do you feel that it's disrespectful to not wear a poppy? What's your view? I personally think it is disrespectful to not wear a poppy. Look, you can disagree with certain reasons behind certain wars. You could argue that World War One was largely a rich man's war fought by poor people. You could argue that the Iraq war was illegal. In fact, I do. I would quite like to see Tony Blair held to account for that. But for many people, the poppy, and I would say most people, the poppy is not a symbol of glorification of war. No, it's a symbol of remembrance. And the people that are best qualified to have this discussion, more so than I would argue the left-wing journalists of this country, people that are qualified to define what the poppy means are the war veterans or the people who have seen war are the people who have lost relatives in war. And I suspect that if you were to ask them what the red poppy means, they would say it's a symbol of remembrance for the loss of life suffered during conflict. It's not a political statement. And to try and analyse history through the prism of today's norms and values and cultural sensibilities is completely nonsensical. How could any one of the past be held to account for their actions by today's standards? It's impossible. And I do think it's a slight desecration of the memory of our fallen heroes. James Butler, let me put that to you. It's a slight desecration of the memory of our fallen heroes. Should we really be having this debate? Should it not just be a unifying symbol in remembrance of those who died? No, it's absolutely hugely important to have this debate. Look, freedom and, you know, the kind of freedom that Patrick is talking about that has been defended, that he claims is defended by the military, is the freedom to think differently, is the freedom to express other opinions. Look, if we want to talk about the people who suffered and who died in World War One, let's go back to the World War One poet, Wilfred Owen, who talked about it is sweet and fitting to die for one's country. No, he called it the old lie. He accused those in power of selling, you know, ardent children for some desperate glory. And that was the response to World War One by many of those who returned. It is the 100th anniversary of the end of that war. It is important to remember, hugely important to remember the way in which the people who came back from that war objected to the reasons they'd been sent there. They found only death and blood and sickness and misery in the trenches. And when they came home, they were put in a civilian suit and they were booted back out into civilian life with very little support from government, something that sadly continues today. Mr Butler, the right's all wrongs of war should not be, should not diminish the fact that people lost their lives fighting for a cause that they may or may not have believed in. Surely they should still be remembered respectfully with the poppy. Yes, but hold on. There's a difference between saying people should be remembered respectfully and the way to do that is through the poppy. The Royal British Legion, who run the red poppy campaign, who I have no problem with, they say very explicitly that that poppy is about those who died in the British military and the Empire military forces, sometimes they say that, who died in combat. There are many other deaths in those wars and those are important to remember as well. Patrick, let's bring you in here. The poppies, of course, grew in the fields that those men died in. I find it incredibly depressing that we are here on the eve of Remembrance Sunday, having a discussion about the over politicisation of the poppy. And actually, let's have this right. James's boss at Navara Media seems to call it potentially white supremacist, potentially racist. He even used the phrase F-off in Victor's games. I very much doubt that the 15,000 West Indian troops that volunteered in World War 1, the 1.27 million Indian troops that volunteered in World War 1 and the 180,000 African troops that volunteered in World War 1, let alone the Gurkhas as well, think that the poppy is a symbol of white supremacy, of racism. No, it's a symbol of our fallen dead. And I think if we forget that and if we try and erase that from history, we run the risk of making the same mistakes of the past, finding ourselves again in another conflict. James Butler, let me just put Patrick's point to you there. Do you feel that the poppy has been hijacked in some way by the far right? Well, I think certainly the far right would like to hijack the poppy. I don't think by any means the vast majority of people who wear it have much sympathy with the far right. But yes, they see it as a symbol of nationalism. They see it as a symbol that they can latch onto. And I think what's important there is that the reason they think they can do that is the sort of subtle nationalism and jingoism that is associated with the campaign. Let's go back a few years to when we had that sea of poppies outside the Tower of London. That was a very moving thing. But if we had remembered all that had fallen in that war in World War 1, that sea of poppies would have stretched down as far as we're sitting now in Westminster. That is hugely important to remember. We should remember all of the victims of war who, as Patrick suggested at the beginning, had much more in common with each other than the people who sent them to die in those trenches in the first place. And Patrick, of course, it's not just commentators like James who have issues with the poppy in Ireland. It's long been a divisive symbol. Yes, absolutely. And I have Irish relatives. And look, if you are on the other side of a conflict and you personally have, you know, different experiences of what a specific conflict was, then I personally don't have any disagreement with that. You are coming at it from another side to me. But I do think it's worth bearing in mind that actually the fact that you say the far right may be of hijack this, I look at it completely differently. I look at this as this multi-ethnic, multicultural, multi-religious force of people who have fought in actually the ultimate battle against white supremacy and white nationalism, specifically with regard to World War 2. And I think it's worth bearing in mind that in order to get to this studio today, we would have had to walk past giant swastikas unfurled on the Houses of Parliament if it wasn't for people that had laid their lives down for the preservation of this country. And I think that's been forgotten today. Your reaction to that, James Butler? I have no problem with a just war against something like narcissism and fascism. But remember that the red poppy was a symbol that emerged out of World War 1. And, you know, that we want to tell stories in this country very simple stories about goodies and baddies. But there were horrors in all of those wars. Horrors like the Dresden Conflagration which was a war crime by any means. We should remember those and have those as part of our national story and think seriously about what it means to make war. War is bloody. War is horrifying. And as the last living veteran of World War 1 in this country, Harry Patch said, war is organised murder. That is something that we should remember on Remembrance Sunday. And just briefly before we let you go, James Butler, how do you remember those who died fighting for their country here? Well, look, I will stand in silence tomorrow and I will remember not only the military dead but the many dead on each side who had nothing in common with their leaders. It was a monstrous war and I hope we never repeat it. James Butler, Patrick Christus, thank you very much indeed for your thoughts today. We appreciate both your perspectives.