 Hello everyone. My name is Seth Mnookin. I'm an associate professor in comparative media studies and writing here at MIT and the director of the communications forum. I'm thrilled that you're all here for this tonight. This is a forum that I feel really strongly about and I'm very glad that we're getting to hold it. One correction to your programs. Nadim unfortunately was booked here and at someplace else simultaneously. His assistant apparently had two events and decided instead of working out that conflict he would just marry them and make them one event. So he texted us a little while ago saying why aren't any of you at Suffolk. So he will not be here but Hisham will be here in his place and so without further ado let me introduce our panelists. Down on the end Abubakar Abid is an engineering master's student at MIT and a member of the Muslim Student Association. He is currently working on building wireless communications and powering systems for edible electronics which sounds delicious and awesome. Layla Shakley holds a master's degree from MIT's School of Architecture and Planning and she's the co-founder of WISE Systems a software firm that helps companies make real-time delivery decisions and the co-founder of TEDxBagdad. Her viral video sensation which we will definitely be talking about Muslim hipsters or mixtures helped launch a national conversation about how Muslim women are represented and Hisham Bedri is also an alumni of MIT from the technology and policy program where he studied new imaging technologies and their implication on privacy. He was born in the Sudan and grew up in my hometown in my hometown of Newton Mass so which makes me very proud and again thank you so much for stepping in literally at the last second. So Abubakar I thought I would start with you and one of the reasons I thought I'd start with you is because initially the other two panelists were gonna have a fairly public profile but Layla I know you've dealt with reactions online to your to your work and to you and I want to know from you if Abubakar if over the last six months or so since the rhetoric around this presidential campaign has in a bunch of cases become pretty hateful if you have noticed any difference or if you've felt any different within MIT and then a follow-up to that is has anyone in the MIT community since you know Donald Trump said that Islam hates us or since Ted Cruz said that we should be patrolling Muslim neighborhoods has anyone within MIT spoken to you or the Muslim Student Association about what's going on. Thank you Seth. First of all I want to thank you and the rest of the team for organizing this and I want to thank everyone in the audience for coming out. I think this is a very very important and critical crucial discussion that we need to be having right now especially given the kind of political discourse that we're hearing and this kind of discourse does have an effect. So as Seth as you alluded you know a lot of people on the trail have talked about the fact that Muslims there's an inherent divide between Muslims and the rest of American society and as a consequence I've actually heard I've heard effects both happening here at MIT as well as in the larger American landscape in fact I just a couple of weeks ago I talked to an MIT Muslim student who told me that so she's a she's a Muslim woman she wears the hijab she's very visible she's a very visible Muslim and she told me about a series of disturbing incidents that she had experienced over the course of just a couple of months after these incendiary remarks had started. So one of the things that she told me was that you know she experienced just as she was grabbing lunch at one of the cafes around campus that one of the servers started shouting at her and accusing her of all sorts of terrible things and on campus yeah on campus and this unfortunately you know in another incident same person as she was boarding a safe ride ironically a safe ride she was singled out and asked for identification whereas all the other passengers weren't and there were other incidents as well but the point is that I think that I think there's a couple of things one that these incidents are happening but two that even me as a Muslim student on campus I was surprised and shocked to hear these and I think that points to the fact that anti-Muslim sentiment as in you know as other examples of bigotry against minority groups it isn't uniform it tends to target people who are already the most visible and potentially the most vulnerable in that group and I think it's important if you want to actually get a sense of what's going on to get as many different to seek out as many different narratives and voices and hear from everyone I think that's the best way of understanding what's happening and so has anyone at MIT or within the MIT community come and spoken to you or said that they support you or spoken to the Student Association yeah so we're fortunate I think one of the one of the one of the great things about the MSA the Muslim Students Association on campus is that it serves as a vehicle for interfaith dialogue for building rapport with other student groups on campus and so we're fortunate to have good relationships with with for example MIT hello we've had joint events with crew with the secular student group and so we have received a strong amount of solidarity and messages of support from these other religious groups and we're very grateful actually to the I know Rabbi Fisher actually reached out to us specifically specifically supporting what you know as a sign of solidarity with the Muslim students on campus and we've had similar support statements of support from other groups so we're seeing both you know on one level organized student groups and most students on campus I think are supportive of the Muslim MIT Muslim students here but at the same time we are seeing these occasional incidents where Muslim students feel threatened and feel vulnerable and and it sounds like you're being very apologetic but should I am I correct in assuming that no one in the administration has reached out to you oh no I absolutely have actually oh absolutely that's just an omission on my point my point both the president we recently met with the VP and they've been extremely extremely supportive okay great Leila so I mentioned your Muslim hipsters video I'm gonna assume that not everyone is familiar with it so I want to know if you could tell us a little bit about that and then also a little bit about the reaction to that yeah definitely it's a pleasure to have you all here tonight so thank you guys for coming to make the very clear distinction I always so I will back has done this incredible job in taking leadership within the Muslim community and really trying to be a leader and developing the MSA here I'm totally here by accident and I'm generally these events by accident and I effectively became a public figure by accident and so to give you to kind of take ten steps back I was a teenager when 9-11 happened and I saw the big shift of the perception of Muslim women right before 9-11 my mom wore the hijab scarf and my sister did and it was usually fine you know people would ask do you get hot in that you shower in that but that was effectively the extent of of you know the funny remarks that we would hear after 9-11 with this otherization of Muslims across America that we'd all experienced alongside I would say a lack of really differentiating reporting that indicated kind of the realities of Muslims in America and really the fact that we are just generally citizens let's let's this otherization of us as a population and I would say that Muslim women and especially those who choose to cover were typically the first victims of this right alongside random people like Seekman who aren't even Muslim but you know people were so upset that they just unfortunately bear the brunt of the storm as well I happen to be one of those Muslim women and I chose to cover growing up and I still choose to cover and it really led to a adolescence of apologeticness quite frankly you know that's not like me I'm not like them I like fashion I like tech I worked at NASA I'm like some literally tech geek right and there's a certain point I would say when I hit 1819-20 that I realized that I was just I was over it the jig was up what was I apologizing for and why did I spend so much of my effort and my energy apologizing for something that I was unrelated for we're all Americans we should not all be apologizing for Donald Trump if you don't support him if you do okay bad example we're just gonna say out of that nevertheless we shouldn't all be apologizing for the KKK that happened in America if you're unrelated and you don't respect it it's a really unfortunate set of circumstances and type of person but they don't represent us we feel the same way about you know these these fringe terrorist groups nevertheless I decided to take action instead of just be angry and upset and my passions were tech space and fashion I was much better at being a creative than I was creating cool rockets so I and my friends and I put together a music video ironically enough to Jay-Z's somewhere in America and it was really an authentic video really benign video of a bunch of Muslim American women doing what they love to do most I used to love to skateboard I still enjoy it I can't say have the time also 30 so it's getting to the age where it's kind of embarrassing but I was I was skateboarding because I'm 43 and I saw I'm like politically correct tonight actually I'm taking my engagement pictures on a skateboard so effectively my friends and I put together this video and we released it to the internet not expecting much more than kind of creating some sense of awareness to people who weren't Muslim that was our target audience I happened to be in Egypt at the time on a UN mission so it was my nighttime when it was daytime here and we were at all like you know the statistics on when the best time to drop a video was and I woke up in the morning and effectively had gone literally insanely viral and I was like oh my goodness what do I do now I'm in Egypt I'm on a UN mission like what if they see me on heels and a skateboard like is this gonna affect my job so I rushed back to the United States that's not true it just happened to be in my mission and I got I got back to the state side and realized this this whole incredible dialogue had formed and the first people to take up the dialogue were Muslims Muslims saying hey dude like this doesn't represent me so I'm not really sure why you put this out there to which my response was like that's great that's the point we're not one person we're many different people and this is my narrative I let that kind of settle out for a few months and then the response came from the mainstream and we were picked up from everybody from GQ to Cosmo to glamour I think I'm the first woman in GQ who is in a bikini it's incredible to Cosmo to glamour to Marie Claire and we I just kind of watched I sat back and watched this dialogue really formed on who Muslim women are what they're supposed to represent who can speak on their behalf what is a Muslim woman how how loaded is this statement how loaded is this piece of cloth so as this incredible incredible dialogue literally evolved in this video became oddly iconic I just took a step back and soaked it up and then in fact eventually wrote a piece in the Atlantic just summarizing it all that if you're interested in this I suggest you read because it really is a very open view straight from the depths of my heart to this whole experience I think I've probably spoken too much but I have a lot more to say so I'm gonna let you ask questions we can come back to that but but just briefly so what were so you said some of the reactions were you know this isn't what we are as Muslim women what were the reactions from the mainstream press when GQ or Marie Claire covered you what was what were they covering essentially Muslim women are so cool these women are so hip Muslim women into fashion like stylish Muslim woman and it was all about just effectively this particular medium of creativity we had chosen which was fashion right and they were just talking about I mean one of the women who was in our video is now the first Olympian for Team USA to wear hijab if Tahaj Mohammed she the fencer she's the fencer so she's in our video she's incredible my sister's in it who happens to be the attorney for the Clinton Foundation for President Clinton who's like a rock star undercover and pun intended and yeah thanks for catching that so there was a lot of really clearly intelligent women and some women chose to be artists or you know community builders but we really focus on the fashion so people who effectively would delve deeper would be like whoa this keeps getting cooler like what she's super smart she's doing such cool things so I think it was just a lot of awareness to kind of another angle of Muslim women in America that quite frankly isn't isn't represented often enough and I'll take some blame for that because as a Muslim woman I could probably represent it myself which is why I did what I did Hisham so when did you when did your family move over and did they move directly from the Sudan to Newton yeah so actually we moved over when I was maybe about a year and a half years old so I don't really remember Sudan very much in the maybe 90s yeah we'll go with that yeah yeah that's how no early in that early in the early yeah yeah but yeah so I guess I grew up in Newton Massachusetts which I would say is probably predominantly Jewish and so I had lots of Jewish friends growing up and it went to lots of bar and bar mitzvahs and it was actually a very good experience and I would say that so I so I think part of that you know experience has shown I mean I think so a great book that everyone should probably read is Kristallnacht by Elie Wiesel and essentially they're they're talking about the issues of the Holocaust and more importantly also the issues of what led up to the Holocaust and trust me this is not to compare directly anything to the Holocaust but I want to do is you know they do talk into the concepts of hate how that really grows up and how that happens and I could say that you know beyond just like the physical or even you know mental stress that Muslims get placed under there's also the concept that their struggle Muslim struggle is very much associated with like the American struggle in general and I think that unhinged remarks against Mexicans or women or even you know Muslims everything like that sort of shows that you know that we're sort of being placed in the situation where we are definitely otherizing and the issue that happens when you begin otherizing is you sort of seeing things like hate and the others ultimately I think the antidote to that and I think Elie Wiesel talks about that a lot is and you really need to start standing up for other people anytime you say standing up for other people or anytime something happens you need to understand that that's you know like it's a direct attack on me just as much as a direct attack on other people as soon as we see like under representative voices or minorities in check like that I think you're gonna see you know essentially other dire consequences happening unfortunately I think that these environments essentially lead to situations wherein it only takes a small lapse of judgment and it's not necessarily going to be you or me or anybody we know but I mean ultimately like you could be in a situation where the cards don't go in your favor and this environment essentially pulls out the entire safety net meaning what a small lapse of judgment meaning what so for example I think I mean everyone you know undergoes feelings of panic the course there was a story of recently there was a Muslim woman on a train who was I think literally just going to work I don't remember the exact details of the story but she was really going to work and on the train she was approached by many different passengers asking if what she was carrying was a bomb or not and that's a situation that could immediately you know escalated something which nobody involved would ever want and so a little bit of you know like suspicion you know in this kind of environment can easily escalate to something which could be extremely dire so the point is we build these safety nets to not just protect ourselves but to protect those around us and I think that you know as soon as we see kind of hate speech flying we have to realize that you know it's going to affect everyone anyone is an underrepresented minority anyone who has a voice that's different from other people and in the end that's what a democracy is about we all have voices which are slightly different we need the room to be controversial we need the room to also be different and without that kind of safety net we're gonna essentially see that stuff happening and so that that's interesting and it it reminds me of I think in 2014 in Sydney there was after a gunman held people hostage in a cafe there was a was it I'll ride with you the I'll ride with you movement where where Australians were speaking out and saying publicly if you are Muslim and are worried about being harassed I'll walk with you I'll ride with you have you seen similar things happening here yeah for sure I think yeah I think let me come up with some specific examples of a buckler and are you guys gonna have to dig what but I think yeah but I would say that you know I think in general the MIT community has been extremely supportive I think a lot of the interfaith community here at MIT is also extremely supportive as well as you know like the higher up you know administration level but I think in general most MIT students are just great people to talk to great people to just have a conversation with and I think that really becomes a thing I would say from my experience I've yet to meet somebody who hate Muslims I've met I haven't met somebody who hates Muslims who knows a Muslim I think that oftentimes that becomes a problem that essentially we are a minority we are necessarily out there and just like you were saying very underrepresented so what happens is you have lots lots of people who've never met Muslims before who are only see like the bad things which are essentially just serialized in the media and essentially things become bad where you're gonna just I can just add on to that I think one of the one of the issues is while while Muslims are fairly integrated in in in the United States there are huge pockets of geographical areas where there aren't many Muslims and in fact the problem is that you know people living in those areas don't know many Muslims and they are because of that they're resistant to learning about Muslims and oftentimes you hear stories for example where Muslim where parents are concerned about their children learning about Islam or Muslim Muslims in schools and so there was this recent story where for example a school district in Virginia shut down because the one of the pair one of the parents saw that their children were learning about Arabic calligraphy in class and so that kind of resistance to education about Islam and Muslim I think creates this unfortunate cycle where you have people just never learning about Islam and Muslims and that perpetuates anti-Muslim sentiment and you just see it persist so I think it's very important to actually end this cycle before before it becomes you know continues to be a problem and so outside you know we're within a community that is not representative of the United States obviously and talking about MIT in some ways probably in a lot of ways but so outside of a university setting are there steps that are being taken or that should be taken you know you talked about speaking out against when you see hate and if you look at again you know what Ted Cruz has been saying what Donald Trump has been saying what on a local level politicians have been saying across the country it's pretty scary stuff and in my perception at least from outside of the Muslim community is that it has not been met with as robust a reaction against that as you might see yeah I mean are you talking about from outside of the Muslim community or within from outside the Muslim community yeah from outside of the Muslim community absolutely which I mean it's a tough issue right because within the Muslim community you hear this criticism sometimes from the outside saying well if you're not one of them why don't you stand up against it and first of all many most you're not one of one of them a terrorist effectively why don't you stand up against it and the truth is if you check any of our Twitter after any attack it's always a clear like you know hearts out to the victims etc etc but there's a real reality to it and the reality is that ultimately when people especially a whole population of people spend their time being defensive they're not doing something else so when I'm not being defensive about who I am I'm usually building something in the at the moment building a company right to effectively be a good daughter a good sister really contributing to something greater and I think that that is really one of the biggest challenges of people are age who happen to be Muslim is there's so much energy that as a result of this lack of education is being wasted on being defensive and being apologetic when effectively the end of the day I'm unapologetically American and there's really nothing nothing to apologize about and and and you you you raised you know the fact that oftentimes after a terrorist attack or even not after a terrorist attack you'll have people saying well why isn't the Muslim community speaking out about this do you think that that's a situation where when Muslims do speak out it's not getting covered or that people aren't speaking out within the community for fear of drawing attention themselves or something no I think I think everybody but anybody who's afraid is gone by now and it's been in other words after their September 11th there is awful events like you know Belgium there is San Bernardino if you're scared of being a Muslim you've cut you're out like you're not you're not left you've left the maybe affiliation the association you recognize yourself you assimilated in other ways and you're not you've left the US but you're not partaking with that identity and we all have friends like that and that's fine who just effectively don't want to deal with the criticism and have assimilated in ways that they've effectively absolved or left their their original identities and that's not my choice to make right so a lot of the Muslims that you see now that are choosing to look and be Muslim have made a very conscious decision to do what we're doing right because there's been many like opportunities to walk out on the identity as a whole I would say for Muslims my age it has to be a choice because you are constantly dealing with so much backlash on an everyday level like to be quite honest I was at the airport yesterday I didn't even think twice I just put a hood on them like I'm not gonna wear my hijab I don't want to put up with this right you know like I need to get to Boston I don't want to be randomly selected again so I think that especially as a woman because that's what I can especially speak for it's a really conscious decision to be and look like a Muslim woman today in America you show them do you find that that's true that that among your peers you know I guess in contrast I don't necessarily identify myself as being religiously Jewish but identify as being culturally Jewish and it sounds like what you're saying is that people who might identify as culturally Muslim but not necessarily religious are essentially just not even are saying well I'm not even gonna identify myself as cultural culturally Muslim is that so are you saying that well I think among many Muslim communities I think you're gonna find that you know like no matter how far away people I guess are from the mosque or where they live or you know isn't like that there is you know like this very very strong identity like the Muslim identity is still like you know a strong part of their lives and I say that comparatively because you know I've lots of friends who are you know not necessarily religious or anything like that I could say that you know comparatively like you know like the Muslim identity is something that you know still plays a part even if like you know you haven't been you know to the mosque ever in your life you know you barely know very much about the religion anything like that but you still like you still have like this feeling and that's not gonna speak for everyone but I can say that on the whole if we were like took like the mean compared to people who are you know not necessarily Muslim I think it's you know like there's there's something that people so essentially do like about this thing so but I would say this do that this thing mean do like like that they still are able to like you know hold on to that and maybe it's because we can't necessarily even you know like escape it you know like there are so many situations where that you know like a day will come up you brought up an extremely good point being Muslim women in America you like you're essentially that identity is on the forefront all the time but I think that it's your earlier point to people feel you know like they need to be apologetic or anything like that I think that regardless I think when people get hurt I think Muslims definitely feel that hurt we're just as American as everybody else and if you were even to add a layer of extra extraction to that I think you see that you know overseas terrorists are killing more Muslims than anybody else so it's you know like and not only that you know like when a terrorist attack happens your first reaction is oh my god this is absolutely terrible second reaction is oh my god this is about to be even more terrible because there's gonna be you know a backlash that goes apart that but I think that's I think you know like that's but I would say there's definitely three examples I can think of the top of my head that of people who are not necessarily Muslim but who have done great ways of essentially making it easier for Muslims so this goes way back but I think at the top level I think Colin Powell when Barack Obama was running for president essentially there's a lot of talk about oh my god Barack Obama's Muslim oh my god he's a Muslim I think Colin Powell came out exactly but I think all those responses still really important he said you know he's a not a Muslim and be even if he was it shouldn't matter and I think you know being of the Bush administration standing out like that it showed that you know I think he was one not to be bullied around although the Bush administration in general you know the the at least right after 9-11 George W. Bush's rhetoric was certainly very embracing of American Muslims at that's my memory yeah there's always a filter of media I think that that goes there and I think that if you're a look at like in practice a lot of the policies that happen we're sure that the exact opposite happens right so I think up but and the second example I want to bring up on is actually at MIT and I'm sorry to call you out for this but Dean Randolph I think I was after the essentially this I think it was the San Bernardino shootings we were gonna have Muslim prayer on Fridays and then he went ahead and he called a police officer to just be outside the the mosque you know like when that happened so that was just really great and that was him you know standing up and saying you know like I want to ensure the safety of you know MIT Muslims I want to ensure the safety of people who are not sure if it's calling someone out if you're complimenting them oh yeah well no I think I think you know there's some really humble people here and the last example I really gotta say this so I work at this electronic store and there was somebody there and they don't know I'm Muslim at all and I was walking by two co-workers talking and I'm sorry to bring racism but they were they were they were both white it's all good they were they're really cool people and essentially some my best friends are white I know it's crazy so and so and then I just overheard the conversation and then I think one guy was saying to the other guy who's just like you know just explaining that you know like you know there's over a billion Muslims on this planet you know like and like you're saying ISIS is like 50,000 people like that represents point zero zero one percent and that if you know if there was a significant part of them that were dangerous none of us would even exist and then he kept going and talking about like you know like all like all like the actual just literal facts of the situation um I suggest people to check out savages to song and the Pocahontas movie and I think it can it can look at it can really describe you know a lot of the things that are going on then today essentially sides are becoming polarized and it's really over nothing and essentially when you start down and look at the facts there's nothing but really good opportunities I think hate is like this really weird thing that like you're saying it's like this just there's a nonlinear effect that occurs when you start dealing with hate. So you know we're talking about examples of people outside the Muslim community standing up and making both saying that this is wrong and making Muslims feel welcome and accepted the fact that the examples that we come up with are Colin Powell from eight years ago a dean at MIT two random white dudes in a Disney movie doesn't make me feel like there is a lot going on in our in our culture as a whole is that and anyone can jump in. Yeah it's real interesting. No go for it. So there's one example I can think of. I would say on the culture as a whole probably not you're correct but it's it's a challenging topic right because I mean what are you going to do somebody who's not Muslim who wants to support Muslims hold a sign up and walk around and be like I support Muslims I mean they're the real right thing to do is to kind of have more events like this and create more use whatever kind of leverage you have and especially outlets to different news news channels and media outlets to kind of spread a different alternative narrative because there's effectively one very overbearing narrative out there right now I would say in the last three four years the narrative has become a bit more diverse and you see a lot a lot different angles kind of coming out about about Muslims particularly in America but to go back to your initial question my mom is like this incredible rock star she was at one point in her life in orthodontist quit that to open a Muslim school pre-k through 12th the city of knowledge in Pomona California best place on earth was accredited and she after 9-11 when I was in middle school I think I remember that morning or the next morning when schools back back in place local Jews and Christians from the local interfaith community literally stood by the gate every day before school after school so students would come and go and feel comfortable and they did that for weeks and weeks it was incredible and my mom called me after the San Bernardino attacks happened because San Bernardino was about 40 minute 40 miles away from Pomona and the same community had done the exact same thing and it was the most simple thing I mean 15 minutes in the morning and 15 minutes in the afternoon right but it truly like resonated with her so you you'll see random effects like this particularly in focused communities like interfaith communities etc but I think the issue is much much larger than kind of random acts of kindness at this point it's widespread acts of information that really might mitigate right right Abu Bakr we were talking earlier I know you haven't read it yet but about and a fascinating article in Buzzfeed about the experience of Muslims living in Tennessee and how radically that has shifted from feeling incredibly integrated and actually one of the reasons that some of the Muslims in quote in the piece said they felt so integrated was because they could relate and identify very clearly with the evangelical population around them that that was a population that took faith as seriously as they were taking it and there was sort of a brotherhood there the article ultimately is about now how that feeling of acceptance has sort of disappeared you as your family still in Arkansas so my family is now in yeah Fayetteville Arkansas and so what is their experience been not just now but over the past you know 16 17 years yeah so that's a good question and I think we talked about earlier how you know maybe some Muslims are choosing to identify or become less visibly Muslim so I think what I what I see more happening more than that is people choosing to become less politically outspoken less less along the lines of you know calling out government surveillance programs of Muslims any any way that they can choose to draw attention less attention to themselves I hear this all the time for example from my parents would tell me don't do anything political that's like the number one piece of advice I get from them just don't do anything political everything else is fine and I you know even for example I a couple years ago I served as a president of the MIT Muslim Students Association and even that was to a lot of people a lot of my relatives a lot of you know my parents said you know are you sure are you really sure you want to draw that kind of attention to yourself and I think that is the real toll that a lot of Muslims are taking is that they are way more hesitant to call out for example aggressive foreign policy domestic surveillance programs even some of the extreme rhetoric that you're hearing that's continuing because a lot of Muslims just don't want to challenge that because you know for example you have candidates like Ted Cruz and Donald Trump calling out let's let's patrol Muslim neighborhoods now you can't really identify Muslim neighborhood but you can't identify Muslim who's speaking you know outspoken about these kind of issues so a lot of people are just taking a step back and saying okay there's a risk involved I don't want to be a part of it and that's again you know this is another vicious cycle that allows these politics you know these these discourse to go unchallenged and these policies to persist so I think that's the real real real toll of these kind of these kind of discussions well and and we can refer to the ghost of Nadine now one of the one of the things you know he's I think the first Muslim elected official in Massachusetts he's also been very active he started mass Muslims in organizing the Muslim community especially the younger Muslim community politically is there the type of generational divide that is discussed where maybe people in your parents generation would prefer not to get involved politically where people in our or if I don't qualify your generation are at least looking for how to how to navigate that how to both speak out about what they believe in and also exist safely and comfortably within the society and anyone can jump in on this is their generational divide yeah I certainly see a generational divide part it's either generational or it could be you know cultural people who have come to the United States as first-generation immigrants they're much less likely to see the value of implementing policy changes so as long as they live their lives comfortably they were kind of okay with that but people who are here in the second generation feel a lot more invested I think in the political process and absolutely so like mass Muslims is doing a great job going to Capitol Hill presenting a list of legislative demands to the Capitol and I think that's going to be key in kind of getting some of these changes over overturned because we don't talk about this but a lot of the rhetoric that you see on the campaign trail it doesn't just exist as rhetoric like a lot of those policies have already been implemented domestic surveillance not too different than patrolling neighborhoods or the equivalent and you know in a certain immigration policy a certain foreign poll aggressive foreign policies all of those are already in place and I think that you know we have to we have to take the step to start challenging that well and you say a certain aggressive foreign policies and that's one to me that's one of the most fascinating areas because certainly in the population in general there are a lot of people who disagree with aspects of American foreign policy over the past decade but for Muslims to speak out about that publicly seems to carry a sort of unique it seems to be fraught in a different way at least from from someone looking at it from the outside is that true I definitely you people are going to call into question your identity if you how American you are right I think as your as you start challenging foreign policy like oh you care more about these people than you care about your own people or things like that but I don't think people should be all that worried about that I think there's a lot of foreign policy points people make which I think are very much universal I think blowback is a terrible thing and I think that I think you'll see amongst many Muslims you know like they share the same kind of opinions with I think like you mentioned most of the country that you know if you have bad foreign policy you know it can lead to bad results in the country they might feel like that in Cambridge sure I think yeah in terms of the generational divide I think I'm what you may see though is a I don't know if the correct term is generational but I would say that so far from what I've seen we're just becoming more politicized I would say that Muslim populations and the team has done councilman has done a great job essentially instituting a lot of you know initiatives and finding people who are very much into politics but I think that in general in our community we see a lot of people who are not necessarily in the political end of the spectrum or even in the arts into the spectrum you may see a lot of people in science and engineering which I mean of course for there's like at least 50% of our population is immigrants or like came from immigrant backgrounds so you can see that you know typically that is something you would expect from an immigrant population focusing on tech focusing on things that you know will immediately lead to you know like a grounding in this country but I think that in general politicization of you know like just be able to stand up taking take part in participating like civics and the like is really the exit for Muslims from like this cycle or at least that's what a lot of people strategize as and I think that you're gonna see more and more of that I mean a good example to prove that is um there's more and more I think there's scholarships you know pointed towards Muslims given from Muslims to Muslims you know for two forward Muslims to go into things like media and arts and what do you form as Muslims to Muslims you mean essentially funding given by Muslims for Muslims you know essentially internal scholarships things like that essentially to go into things like media into politics and I think that's a little bit unheard of because I mean as I've run high school programs before it's you know very difficult or I think anybody who's trying to get a fellowship in anything liberal arts related it's really hard you know what I mean yeah but it's interesting in this community that's essentially encouraged so I think that you will see more liberalization politicization more people involved in civics and that's gonna be very interesting to see I think we've my generation certainly is more politicized I wouldn't tell you that it's per se a generational difference it's generational for sure but I wouldn't say it's because we tend to be more interested in politics as a whole I think we have to be I think that particularly right now it's evident that we're medium for votes for particular candidates and a very effective medium for votes so there are some people who are really interested by politics and want to know everything and want to be involved and there's the rest of us that really should know a thing or two because we're really really being you know highlighted in many many many times and points of this particular for example presidential race and other points so you kind of have to be fairly political young Muslim who chooses to practice and be very like you know outwardly Muslim because as I said we're we're a medium and in this particular race is that do you to both agree with that that to be a religious Muslim at this moment in history in the US is inherently a political act as well as religious act yeah I mean I'd say for the a lot of people feel like if we're gonna survive as a community and be able to practice effectively we need to become political yet you know I would say there are people though that you know choose to distance themselves for the political process for you know survival of the self they don't want to draw attention to themselves you know I because I'm in the Muslim community you hear stories all the time about for example the New York police department sending undercover agents that pretend to for example convert and become Muslims and then they join the MSA's they join the Muslim Students Associations and then they just you know they embed themselves undercover agents and what that does is I've had conversations with so many students when I encourage them to Muslim students when I encourage them to come to MSA events and they'll say ah you know I don't know I don't want to be too political that's their answer political not religious because they're they're torn right so they want to practice their identity but they just feel so much safer practicing it alone so I think you know for the long-term survival of the Muslim Students Association yes absolutely we need to get engaged with the political process so what does it say I mean one of the interesting reactions to the political rhetoric that's occurred over the last couple months was actually from the commissioner of the NYPD who I thought spoke out he was among the most forceful people who spoke out to speak out right off the bat in saying how un-American Ted Cruz's comments were and talking about all the Muslim officers the fact that you have that coming from an organization that has been really heavily criticized for its surveillance tactics what is that what does that say Linda starts doing a great job so she's also an activist in the area and I think I'm really glad that he actually came out and did you know make those comments because I mean I think it and I think what was awesome was seeing those comments the place is also like Fox Fox news and you know broadcasts that you know aren't necessarily usually correct this kind of information so I think that's absolutely awesome I think that one of the maybe a silver lining in this presidential campaign has is that the for example issues like the surveillance of Muslims has become politicized in the sense that you know one party is now becoming associated with it so perhaps members of the other party are kind of distancing themselves say oh this is actually not us even though maybe five years ago everyone would have been kind of fine with it it was kind of low-key and it was happening but now people are forced to confront it as a political issue so you think five because because certainly both Hillary Clinton and Bernie Sanders have spoken out very strongly you think five years ago before it had become the political issue it is today that that was not the case or that I think I think you only need to look at the the change in stance of the police commissioner himself I don't know if it was the same same police commissioner but I'm imagining there was more alignment in policy than there is now so I think I think things are changing to that extent but then the problem with it becoming a political issue is then half the country is now in favor for it and half of it is against it I mean we ideally want to get to the point where everyone feels it's wrong and what in favor or against what programs like keeping a closer tab on Muslims or Muslim patrolling that kind of thing you talk about the details of that of that program it was pretty easy absolutely right yeah yeah yeah essentially they had they had they'd essentially been monitoring or surveilling or had informants in essentially MSAs and other essentially Muslim organizations in mosques which here's the critical point even beyond New York into other states such as New Jersey and the rest of New England so it was a very large and extensive program and the thing is that's you know these are the programs we learned about now and essentially the questions are what are the kind of things that were happening even before we thought about that yeah so I was the one who kind of mentioned that some Muslims don't choose to be political they just become politicized I'm one of those actually I'm so deeply engaged in my work that I generally have no idea what's going on right so I don't think I'm the right I don't think I'm the right person to ask for it I haven't even read enough I did listen to an incredible NPR story on it that I recommend for everybody who knows very little on the topic but I don't think I know enough to comment yeah there's also a there's also a documentary called terror that's terror yeah I think that's coming out of Netflix very interesting just called terror yeah I think it's just called terror yes terror T and then in parentheses error okay no but the idea behind that documentary is it's actually very intriguing they follow a a live FBI entrapment scheme as it's happening they're able to get some reporters and apparently the FBI doesn't even know but but no but I think that's really the scary part because it's to the point where so this whole idea of entrapment where FBI agents are sent to convince potential people to commit crimes and then are you know get rewarded essentially for catching them in the act of doing so and then yeah and in some cases pressure those people to then become informants exactly exactly yeah which I guess gets me or gets us to one last issue I wanted to talk about before we opened it up Jessica Stern is a political scientist at BU and possibly also at Harvard and she has talked about how one of the things ISIS is attempting to do is essentially make it impossible for there to be moderate Muslims by generating so much hate against Muslims that Muslims sort of feel like radicalization is their only choice at that at that point and she has talked about how that has the potential and has been much more successful in Europe where the Muslim community is much less integrated when there are things going on like the FBI programs like the NYPD surveillance programs like online security surveillance programs what are the risks of do those risk what types of reactions do those risk causing well essentially what type of reactions to do which the surveillance programs you know if you are worshiping at a mosque that you find out has not only been under surveillance but had had had plants there or if you're someone who is entrapped and then pressured to become an informant or a situation like that what what types of reactions just does that risk causing I think the big worry or the big concern is that Muslims will become will go kind of into hiding and not even go to the mosques and institutions so we know there's been many studies that show that if a Muslim is going to the mosque is active in their civic organizations they are much much less likely to even think about radicalization right that's that's been consistently shown and so if you scare people if you have put you know if people are protesting the buildings of mosques if people are thinking that oh my my mosque might be bugged I think then there might be a concern that that you know that people are going to get their information from the internet rather than from institutions that are actually providing legitimate Islamic information and so I think the concern isn't so I don't I think it has less to do with homogeneous like you know the the Muslim pockets that are in Europe or that are may not be here but I think the concern should be making sure that Muslims feel comfortable going to mosques and participating on a civic basis and Laila one last question before I open up so when you became a sort of public figure and were kind of held up as a public example of what it meant to be a Muslim woman were there did you receive any threats to being out in public to that extent cause you to ever feel less safe than you had previously I mean on the internet there was a lot of threats in real life people are just like that's cool you're really cool but like on the internet certainly that's where all the crazies come out right and threats are along what lines you'd hear things from like you know the kind of flip side of the equation that that really is Islamophobic along the lines of like you know you XYZ Muslim you're all the same like don't try to put some cool pants on it and make it look like it's not threatening and then you know really conservative Muslims who are like you're not even Muslim dressed like that you know what are you doing so I think that's just the reality of life those aren't threats as much as that's just NASA it's it's yeah threats is in like feeling I wasn't safe yeah threats is is even you know comment saying like someone should do something to you or no I can't I mean I didn't really read too much of the comment section that's that's a good yeah it's generally something I learned quick so I know I can't say I felt any threats and no I can't say that was the case but I was really taken aback by the extent and growth of the conversation itself because it really proved that there's this incredible vacuum over the topic right we're all so deeply kind of involved in this conversation about the fact that we're not terrorists and that I can't even answer your question about homegrown terrorism because I have no points of reference right I'm scraping my brain trying to be like well maybe I don't know I've never met a homegrown terrorist right I know like every Muslim in America you have to right literally so I think I think there's a really real reality that there is a huge vacuum of information and of kind of I guess role models or public figures etc which is why I've kind of taken the role even though I kind of have no interest in it in the sense that I really spend a lot of time working right you know but at the same time we'll make two hours on a night like tonight to come out and talk about the issue because it's really important so I not just on a night like tonight you're leaving now for your wedding yeah I'm getting married I think it's a critical topic I think it's really important that everybody's here tonight regardless of where you stand on the spectrum because you need to not only learn but you need to teach others and if you're of some other minority community whether you're transgendered or whether you're some other minority religious community you're probably feeling a lot of the same feelings and you're probably being targeted in similar ways they might have real reactions whether it's being treated poorly or not getting the job you want so the next time that you feel a little funny towards somebody you should have some empathy and teach somebody else about your own circumstances and you know spread the love all right with that why don't we open it up to audience questions we have two microphones this is being recorded so when you ask a question please identify yourself just so we know who you are hi my name is Hesham Yusuf thank you so much for that wonderful commentary from all three of you I just had a question before leaving so we talked about how you know is our existence as Muslims is it a political existence and how does politics politics play a role in our lives and you know I was just thinking what you you comment on sort of these systems that we have to live in these systems that are oppressive and and oppressive not only to us as Muslims but as our identities I think everyone on the stage has a complex multi-layered identity you know Hesham who's Sudanese is Arab who's black who's also Muslim Leila who's Arab American woman and American and how do you layer all those things and how do you kind of talk about isn't our existence in itself political and the actions we do aren't they political in themselves especially when we're coming from these marginalized spaces and I just wanted to hear your comments on that and when you say systems that are oppressive can you explain sure yeah I'm happy to explain that so I mean in terms of policies that are passed out on local on a regional on a national level that press you know communities that were our parents are from abroad from communities that we live in here from housing and discrimination policies and housing and education and healthcare personally in the medical profession and just just the things we choose to do there we want to cover practice our faith or fast in the hospital and how that affects how we're perceived in professional personal spaces and I think that those systems kind of place a weight on our choices to practice or to affiliate with a certain religion or ethnic group right or have a certain color of skin that's what I'm talking about any replies thoughts I think it very much echoes a lot of the sentiments that we were talking about like I think Hesham's comments came a lot from what he experiences and I think effectively he's echoing the sentiment that as a young Sudanese Muslim American he you know very clearly feels like them so there's some sort of politicization of his identity whether he likes it or not but my name's Omer first of all thank you for this enlightening panel so as brawl I guess for the most part MIT alum who are living in a progressive city like Cambridge so I was wondering if we as Muslims run the risk of looking at the glass as half empty rather than half full so for example here at MIT President Reif you know has been very vocal in defending Muslim students likewise with Councillor Mazan there was a hit piece that was run in Breitbart news but right after that his colleagues unanimously voted in a they basically voted to condemn that piece and his unanimous unanimously passed and this is after a very contentious election where they're not so kind words shared between him and his colleagues so I'm my question is do you risk downplaying you know all our allies by emphasizing the negative aspects like we talk about Trump but we're not talking about Senator Sanders and his campaign and his message of positivity in his like attempts to reach out to Muslims to like be very vocal in supporting Muslims so could you please comment on that I mean I'm I should add the caveat that I am speaking as a male who's not visibly looking Muslim who's living in a very progressive society with someone who's gotten opportunities more than like 99% of this country so thanks so I would have to say that okay first of all before I respond I got to say that that was a really awesome question I'm really glad that you decided to go against the grain and you know like I guess the I guess the crazy liberal media grain and you know like bringing up this point and I think that I would say as a quick response I would say that we should do as much as we can to identify our allies because there's many of them and they stand up for us all the time even in ways that we don't even ever see and I think you bring a great point on that at the same time I think that part of and I think that as much as you know like if you're if you're a minority you know it's not that that you have to have allies and you're done no if you're a minority you have to have allies you need to be allies for other people and everything like that and I think that we need to be as much allies to other peoples we can be and I think that's part of being an ally is also understanding that as you get up to stand up you there's also you know you're throwing away the level of recognition that you're doing it for I mean that's really what's also about being an ally I think you can have both you can have people both you know complimenting our allies everything like that and at the same time you know like allies not necessarily you know asking for recognition I think that that being said the positivity point only carries so far I would say that highlighting people who we think are awesome and great and doing you know like really good stuff is very important but it doesn't carry as far as you know like bringing up the specific points in the specific dangers that people face every day and I think that one thing that you could explain is like for example like there's there's there's there's currently a cemetery being you know built Muslim cemetery cemetery in Massachusetts. Is it being built now? Oh my god I don't think it'll be built now. So I think and and I've been in Milwaukee where they try to build a mosque too and I've been to the public hearings and it is a really really hard process. The Massachusetts issue there's a huge debate right about whether it's going to be allowed and right right and it's literally like and some of the comments were you know like you know like what are they gonna do they're gonna build a cemetery here and then they're gonna build a mosque and like as in like what's worse than a dead Muslim oh my god a live one you know what I mean like but um but I think you know highlighting those things but you know comparing that to say like you know like Roxbury or Cambridge and say well look Roxbury did this and they accepted the mosque and it did well for them or Cambridge did this and they accepted the mosque and it's good for them. I think there is a very strong media point to be said for focusing on places like this where things are not getting done then say saying you know like Roxbury did a great job and that part of the story will come in later on. I promise you when they cut the ribbon you know when it opens up places like Roxbury places like you know like Cambridge and other places will be celebrated but I think highlighting the danger is very important. Yeah and just to add to that I think you know as I think I'm sure you mentioned in your question and you recognize there are a there's a spectrum of of vulnerability in many parts of the country in different occupations there are Muslims who are more vulnerable and it's important to highlight their opportunities and again I just want to echo the point of finding allies that's really important not only for the ethical and the moral and the religious mandate to stand up for what they're going through but also I think very practically speaking a lot of the media is certainly social media that we experience there are these you know there are these echo chambers there are these different lanes that people get their information from people that have very similar viewpoints so I think from a very practical reason it's very important to identify key people in different in who can serve as different allies and get the word out and I think that's really the most important expression of solidarity that as a non-Muslim one can make towards the Muslim community and vice versa is really sharing us all just sharing our our stories and our mutual understanding of of a mutual cooperation and kind of changing challenging the narratives and challenging power structures that exist. Other questions? Hey Abubakar, how's it going? It's funny to see you up on the panel I was like oh yeah I know you outside but I was just really struck by the the first example you gave of a friend of yours at MIT who had the server in the dining hall yell at her and I guess partly what I feel is like you know I wish if things like this are happening I wish I knew more about that I mean maybe it's like one of a kind and then that's good to know but you know things like this happen I'd like to know more about it and so what I sort of wonder is is there a way that you know we can we can make make people more aware that things like this happen because like abstractly okay by reading the news I know okay there's probably some level of as there's a level of Islamophobia in America but to actually hear a concrete example and like to think I could be you know I could be at an MIT dining hall and imagine if I were at an MIT dining hall and you know one of the servers started yelling at me because of my ethnicity or my religion and then to think that that happened so I think it would be a good idea if there's some way to publicize the fact that something like this happened and you know that's a good point as I mentioned I was surprised to hear that so yeah so you know absolutely and and I think you know perhaps like anonymous services like MIT confessions for example could be a good outlet or perhaps it could be an outlet that you know different minority groups who experience this could just share internally but absolutely I think you bring up a good point perhaps there is there's room for a platform where people can share stories and bring it up to the attention of other students faculty administration absolutely and to kind of add to that to know just this kind of idea of a platform or kind of spreading the word even to add to your your first question in terms of well why aren't we talking this much about the good stuff that happens I do think that as young Muslims I mean everybody behind this stage at least I know for a fact does not talk about terrorism all day we all have day jobs and they're very busy and we're all doing really good at something they're very diverse some things right and I think that we're at a time where more Muslims also need to be acknowledged for being something aside from being Muslim right so you know if you're the best camera maker or whatever you do in that lab in all of America and you happen to be a Muslim I feel like we need to be sure to kind of help each other out with getting that type of press as well because there's a degree of humanization that comes with it and what's lacking on a larger level is just humanization there's a reason why some lady thinks it's okay to yell at a woman in her job for eating because she's Muslim and clearly she must be an alien to his earlier point he's never met anybody who's met a Muslim who hates Muslims right that's generally how it works so um yeah I think that in general it's also a good idea to kind of not fixate too much on this conversation but push your colleagues forward regardless of who they are and kind of get them that recognition in other spaces and as Muslim women too I get so excited when I see people like Ibtoha she wear her job and they aren't just talking about how we're peaceful she's like too busy beating the rest of the world at fencing right so I think things like that are really important yeah and in the case for I mean I think the proof of the Islamophobia I mean I think there's many ways of just I think proving to yourself there's a very simple test I mean you can walk outside and put on a hijab for you know just like try it for a few hours and see what happens report back on your results I think everyone would love to hear I mean also be like to hear that result as well you know like I don't know but I mean of course to keep yourself out of danger but what I'm saying is um that uh it's it's it's there there are ways of looking at it um I think uh when you when you take a look at the there's there's individual aspects of Islamophobia I can mention many of them they're all very real and there's the individual like say incidents but what I'm trying to say is you know that what we're looking over here is like this overarching essentially you know like level of environment of fear which essentially prevents people from living out their regular daily day lives as Americans and let me be very clear being part of America means that someday you can hope to run for president um and a great example no I mean that's that's that's a thing um and if you have you know people like say you like Ben Carson I was so disappointed I'm sorry it doesn't matter what Trump says I mean he's Trump right but when you have other people who follow like who run in line and essentially say you know like I wouldn't you know I wouldn't be happy with you know like almost some president or something like that things like this you essentially see that there's this aspect of fear which sort of hits up to the high level like I can tolerate Muslims as long as they do this or I can tolerate Muslims as long as they do that but that's really not what people are asking for this is not really how you know we should feel comfortable as being Americans we should be ashamed of having anything less than accepting of all Americans I think John Esposito said a really great thing once and essentially um in a talk he essentially said people being afraid of mosques being built in this country because they're afraid of terrorism is like saying people should be afraid of you know like a Catholic church being built because they're afraid of child abuse and I think that that's a really great point like what is it that you know like what blinders do we have on that have caused us to you know essentially you know seeing somebody else who like literally acts the same lives the same there's a poet named Nabil he's great he has a great poem about how he's just just like you um and everything is exactly the same but yet is considered and if it can happen to Muslims it can happen to anyone and I think that we just need to understand like what what is the house that we're all building together what does it look like what does it accept and what is it not and I think we think about it that way thank you yeah it seems that part of it what can happen is that you know maybe if I walked around looking like very clearly Muslim for a day nothing would happen but things happened once in a while and it's those few incidents that can make that can create fear those few incidents not only create fear amongst Muslims they create fear amongst people who are afraid of Muslims because those people might see those incidents as you know for a reason effectively and well intention whereas Muslims see those things as terrifying like there's a woman who wore her job who slashed on a subway in New York within the last two weeks literally a knife to her face literally like um which terrifies me I know I can probably fight back but I think of my mom and just get very afraid um you shouldn't have to fight back but then there's like this even kind of like larger trauma right um and the trauma is not only our identity and the way that we're perceived but I mean I don't want to take a toll on this room because I don't think it's a nice thing to do but I bet if I asked how many people in this room had that have actually been individually affected by ISIS most likely the only the Muslims would raise their hand my best friend's mother was killed in Kabul literally by a terrorist attack um I was almost killed in Baghdad that's a whole other story and I have family member who was killed by terrorists and it happens to be because I geographically happened to be closer in ethnicity to these things and therefore these things happen um and so not only am I constantly fighting this identity that's being pushed on me but I'm actually facing the consequences of this crazy group of people uh and I wouldn't be surprised if there were more Muslims that were affected I can actually probably guarantee there are more Muslims that are affected by this than anybody else um and so there really needs to be some sort of change in this larger narrative thank you yeah nice other questions they can also be hard questions we can we can take them is there anything else any of you want to add or that you feel like we've not touched on or do you feel like we have touched on everything in the history of the universe in the past in the past 80 minutes I just I just want to echo Layla's point I think it's so important uh to humanize the discussion rather than just focusing on a particular aspect of Islam and Muslims just the mere fact that people are able to buy such simple binaries and just you know are just just resort to very simple generalizations the problem is that you know people are trying to instead of like dealing with this problem of for example terrorism of bigotry with precision they're just you know coming at it axis swinging they're just you know this these these these problems require I think the precision of a scalpel and instead we're just swinging at it with huge axes and just like we're not we're not getting anywhere closer to forming solutions instead we're just perpetuating the problem because we we don't understand really how um Muslims in the US think we don't really think about how people in other parts of the world may think so I think it's really really important to just bring this discussion down to a human level anything else you guys want to add it's okay to say no it's totally fine no I'm just kidding no thank you guys honestly I'm sure that everybody had other things to do tonight and it's a really important conversation and you should know that not only do I not hope that you will never be victims of some sort of otherization in the future but if you are many Muslims will be by your side so including us yeah thanks you guys for all for coming out I think that uh maybe we're preaching all to the choir because everyone's here you know trying to essentially it's also people watching at home I think um probably that's the case too um so the question I guess you know that that comes up it's like you know like how do you reach people who essentially are not of that mindset and who are not you know like along those lines and I think it's really important to look at the I think statistics of it I think that I don't know if anyone's done this plot but if they can you know try to correlate you know Islamophobia or even a lot of like this hate speech to election cycles I think that may bring up we have a joke my house is like oh it's election season no it's Islamophobia season uh it's not an election season no it's it's like a joke there I mean yeah but uh but I think I think that that is really interesting and um I don't know uh maybe we got to ask a deeper question you know like um you know uh why are we why are we doing this you know to get elected I think that's a really really hard question I don't think that's the kind of place we all want to live in and maybe just to uh continue on that point of how do we reach people who aren't here I mentioned earlier that oftentimes social media acts as kind of a social of an echo chamber where you you are restricted to people who share your own viewpoints but I don't think that always has to be the case just this morning I saw this very interesting campaign by the country of Sweden to actually have a they have the first ever national phone number so it turns out that if you call this particular phone number you can google it you actually reach a random person in Sweden who's signed up for this app very interesting and the reason they bring it up is because actually it has to do with election cycles socialism all these questions about socialism are in the air and Sweden wants to be you know they want to break down the barriers to understand you know a lot of people have questions about this so you you now you have access to a live Sweden we can answer your question and I think you know the the important point that I want to emphasize here is that they had this nice video which went viral and through social media they were able to reach so many people I think it's important to start looking at that as a model and and you know a building off of that and I think a lot of misunderstood marginalized communities can follow suit I think that answers his question in the blue to what the solution is you have a call almost in the call line yeah we do have a running program where any Muslim you approach you can get tea from them it's it's an obligation you can literally talk to any Muslim they will give you tea you can mark my word any Muslim anytime any tea not any tea well thank you all three of you so much for coming out this was I don't know whether it was preaching to the choir or not it was helpful to me because even though I knew where I stood on the issue of the rhetoric and Islamophobia I hadn't spoken with a lot of Muslims about their day-to-day experience and I felt like it was difficult for me to speak out to the extent that I wanted if I was speaking from a place of ignorance so I really appreciate all three of you coming out and sharing your experiences I think all of you for being here we do events like this three times a semester we have an email sign up sheet right over there and if you sign up we promise not only do we promise we will not spam you you might even want us to email you more because we typically you will only get about 12 emails a year from us but and you can find all of our past forums online for many of them there's audio and video and a write-up and this will be posted likely early next week so thanks a lot