 The Chairman of the Independent National Electrical Commission, Ainek Makhmoudyakubu, has announced that sensitive electoral materials will in the meantime no longer be rooted through the Central Bank of Nigeria. He also specifically notes that, beginning from the Akiti State Gov. election, Ainek will not keep its sensitive materials with the CBN. According to him, the decision is to guarantee that electoral materials for the lined-up elections are not compromised. Several individuals and groups have raised serious concern about the sanctity of election materials kept with the CBN after the report that the CBN governor, Godwin Amifili, was indicating interest to contest for the country's presidential sit. And when that story hit the airwaves, it cost a lot of opera. Well, joining us to discuss this is Paul James. He is the Programme's Manager of Elections for Yaga Africa. And also joining us is Ibn Azar Wikina. He is the Founder of Policy Shapers. Thank you so much, gentlemen, for joining us to be a better set of people to have this conversation with. Thank you. Good evening. Great. Now, Paul James, it's very interesting that this is a conversation that, first and foremost, the basis for Wik disconversation even became a conversation is that the man who sits at the Apex Bank did not only just say he was going to run for an office, he went to court. And for this, it violates so many rules and laws as it has to do with the civil service or public service and, of course, the electoral act. But as we speak, he is still the central bank governor. And I think what I think is saying, we cannot route our sensitive materials through the CBN. Should that be the first thing that we should be thinking of in a case like this, or should we be pushing for the law to take its course as regards to the CBN governor? I think, for me, first and foremost, it's also about how to protect the sanctity of the institution of Ibn Azar because that's the condition that we know have suffered a lot of trust. It has a lot of trust deficit targets on it, and so it has also been trying all this just to see how it can redeem itself of that kind of notion from the vast majority of Nigerians. It is unfortunate that this is also happening to the body quality at this point in time, especially also regarding the CBN governor. We must also get it that as a Nigerian, he has the right to aspire for the highest position of the land. But, of course, he also need to understand that the position he holds and the institution he represents also, I mean, and also his own aspiration as a Nigerian are completely opposite, completely different, they are completely opposite. So as such, I anticipated that if he were a person of integrity, a person of high moral standard, given also the kind of questions or thoughts that this race that we shouldn't have had this opera, the way he knew he had the ambition to contest, he will have just stepped aside. But I think also on the part of, and I did what I thought was right at this point in time. But then also the big question to ask is must we also continue to go through this route? We need to begin to think about building confidence in our institutions and also learning from what we have seen in other democracies. We have places where we hear about sensitive or non-sensitive materials. People pick up election materials on election day. They move from their houses to polling, you need to go cast their votes. And so we also not also lose sight of, we shouldn't also forget the fact that elections are getting better. With the new electoral laws that we have now, voting will not going to be based on people that are even accredited. So if we have all of these sort of things in our, if we have this sort of strong legislation in our electoral laws, my sense is, I don't think we need to even be spending so much of money, one, going outside of the country to produce a sensitive materials, two, the logistics also involve a fact depositing them with the CVF before we start moving them to the state or the location where they will be used as the case may be. So I mean, I know this is what I thought is right, moving them straight to his office in Adua and then from there onward distribution to the local government. But I also think that is something they should explore going forward. But then if that question of integrity continue to hang in the air, especially about the CBN, then my own advice to them is to begin to explore other agencies of government that we think we can trust. Maybe the military, if they have facility that can hold our sensitive materials, 2023 is not far from now. So I need to begin to explore how to go about this problem so that it can inspire confidence in voters. These measures that the INFJ has taken last week, Saturday, I'm sure, will help to improve the standing of the commission, especially in terms of voters' confidence in the ability of INFJ to ensure a free and credible process in AKT State. Let me move to Ebenezer. Ebenezer, you obviously lead a group of people who are called policy shapers. And I want to ask the same question, but in a different way. How did we even get to a point where we are at a place where we're looking for where to safeguard our sensitive, electoral materials that originally would be safest in the central bank of Nigeria? Because I'm thinking now. The question I asked when Professor Moudiakou made that statement was, so where else are we going to safeguard these materials, being that the elections for AKT and our state are just around the corner? How did we even get here to even begin with? Well, I mean, I've heard so many questions of what the law says and what the law doesn't say, you know, in regards to if the central bank of Nigeria has the authority or has the right to contest the problem of it, while still being the central bank of Nigeria. You know, I think if you look at it from the moral perspective, I don't believe anyone that stays on the state, the central bank of Nigeria, in running or, I mean, in terms of knowing we need to run for public policies. And, you know, I think that just as Paul spoke said, we don't need to let American elections, we don't need to let much conversations around states. The fact that elections start very, very early because the elections, the elections are very coordinated, it's not to say that all of those communities that we see in our country, we don't get to see them. But again, this is what happens when we look for strong men, not strong institutions. I mean, if an institution that's strong enough, and if it happens that we stop someone within that position, I think there's room for that kind of flow. If anybody wants to contest for office, just like, you know, the ministers do, you step down, you design, you move on, you become anonymous, and then you begin to contest for that election. I also think that where there are two things I'm thinking of, and I think the state is a huge case story, it's supposed to be a good chance to test these new thoughts back. I know there are two things I'm thinking of. First is logistics. We know that Nigeria has a challenge of election material, not getting to be positional, not getting to be electoral units and then to four or three of us together. So has that been a challenge because of the central bar? Or would this mean moving the sensitive materials to the end of the period in the state and eventually to the polling unit be a better solution? That's a thing left for us to speak. I'm also thinking of security, and I think all is right for the state to begin to think of ways to involve even the military. There's nothing wrong with that because we know where we are going to and we like to know there's very little trust in the material system. Anything we can do to make it go to the end of the vote, I think we should better do. And security, making sure that the logistics are on point, ensuring that things move very fast from the second-hand offices to the polling units will be a very important step to take. All right, we see that, you know, we are all applauding, you know, the fact that the electoral act as amended has given our election or the electoral process a boost of sorts and Nigerians have some level of hope. But then again, I'm looking at responsibilities being packed on INEC, responsibilities that should originally not be their problem, being heaped on INEC, being that there's been a lot of interreliction of duties or a loss of lawlessness in terms of how the electoral processes should run. And what does that do to the back of INEC, being that they already have their plate full? I mean, we have governments and leaders and legislators who choose, pick and choose what laws, you know, to obey. And then of course, at the end of the day, INEC has to somewhat shoulder some of these responsibilities that are not necessarily INECs in the first instance. How do we even, you know, unburden INEC going forward? It's not enough for us to say, well, oh, we're going to be electronically transmitting results. But what about the other loopholes that need to be plugged? Well, I think if that question is to me, there have been a lot of advocacy around on bundling INEC and I think it's gradually yielding fruits because there are conversations also around, for instance, starting an Electoral Offences Commission that will take up that responsibility or prosecution away from INEC. And also the part that remains to be seen is the part about handling election logistics. Don't forget INEC is also managing political, monitoring political parties, primaries and the likes. So me, I think it will be a greater achievement if we're able to unbundle INEC and especially take off the part around management of election logistics. We recall what happened in 2019. The eve of the election, before the election was postponed, we had some senior, some high ranking and net officials were even at the, were seen around the, the Air Force, for instance, trying to shift election materials on the eve of the election to some states across the country. And so that also, I mean, devised their attention instead of planning of preparing for the election that was to happen the day ahead and officials were busy going around. So I think it will be a big achievement, like I said, if that is, if we're able to achieve that. Within the premise of what we have currently, for instance, we are seeing improvement, especially around the election. That's why, may I hold your opinion that the idea of sensitive or not sensitive material, we should begin to think about how that will go off our election. For instance, if we think about the viable type of official system that has not been introduced. It has a dual capacity of checking your fingerprints, checking the facial recognition and also the permanent voter's card. This is also telling us that without the PBC, for instance, we should be able to vote. That is, if I'm able, if the current voter has an approach and a official and then the person is, the fingerprint is authentically verified, it should be able to bring up the voter's detail on the bi-moder, voter credentials device, especially the way it is properly coded or entered on the device. So if we have that, I think we should begin to get to the conversation of saying, taking off even the idea of a permanent voter's card from the elections, of taking about what we can use to identify voter, maybe any means of identification before the voter votes. But also within the existing framework also, I have talked earlier about how, I mean, think about what determines who's voting. It's going to be based on the number accredited. By that it means an individual how to come to the poll in a before the person is administered for the election. So it means that would eliminate the idea of even, I mean, anybody can take the sensitive materials in the poll in the election, it has to be the current voter before the person is allowed to vote. Okay, all right, quickly because we are out of time, but he's just in a few words. As young persons who are pushing for good governance, young persons who are saying enough is enough, we want the right things to be done. Should we also not be pushing for, I don't know, some form of the strengthening of the rule of law or the judiciary in terms of airing persons, people who are going against the electoral act or the laws of the land in terms of running for offices or remember that there was a drag within the House of National Assembly as to who should step down 30 days before the elections for public office holders. It's not enough for us to say let's all get our PVCs, but what about us pushing for proper good governance and also helping the judiciary to do its job? Quickly. Yeah, I apologize, I just had a part to say, but if I could just quickly jump in. I think it's a working progress, just as Paul said. I don't think we'll be able to get every form of reform at the same time. I mean, the electoral act is a huge victory and it's the first step in the right direction. And I think as we continue to work together, we need to advocate for the correct things to be done as we continue to advocate for the rule of law to meet the problem. I'm just excited to say that for the first time we've just been observing that we were scared to not give the NEC deadline. That's been going through, right? So we knew that people really can expect law and so if we continue to emphasize and if we continue to ask for the right things to be done, I'm sure we're going to get the right things. But I think it's the first step, we need to get the PVCs, because it's the only way to get the PVCs and then as we continue the process, we can continue to advocate for all that on the key issues. Well, I want to say thank you gentlemen. Paul James is of YAAGA and a business of Wikina is the founder of Policy Shapers. Thank you so much for being part of the conversation and keep doing the good work. Thank you very much. I'm good luck you two. Thank you. All right. Well, thank you all for staying with us. Well, we have our eyes on the Eagle Square where the ruling or progressive Congress is about to have its convention and of course the presidential primaries and every single person in this country is waiting to find out who emerges as the flag bearer. We'll bring you more reports in our subsequent news bulletins. I'm Mary Anna Cohn. Thank you for watching. Have a good evening.