 Hello and welcome to NewsClick. The armed services of our country have been a backbone of this nation. There's been a lot of noise one way or the other either hailing their patriotism or putting them down in one way or the other. Recently many news items have intervened into this debate and have cast light on one or the other aspect. To discuss some of these issues we have with us today, Lieutenant General Prakash Katoch. Welcome sir. Thank you. To discuss issues relating to the armed forces in our country. So let me begin General Katoch by asking you. The doctrine is that India is set to be prepared for a two-front war and we've long been hearing about problems in the state of preparedness of the armed forces, equipment that they have etc. So in your opinion where do the armed forces, particularly the army stand with regard to the prospect of a two-front war? I will put it this way that today if there is a two-front war we will fight like we fought in Kargil but the chief will say that we will fight with what we have. Now the thing is that when the government came to power, the present government, the Congress ten years stay was criticized for not bringing up the defense. And now you already have in the media that the defense allocation is the lowest since 1962. That's right. Criticalities are tremendous. In fact the parliamentary committee report on defense has brought out the criticalities. So it is not just that the defense ministers say that this is all bunkum and we have enough money. There is not enough money. That's right. But the parliamentary committee's report itself has been debunked by the minister in that she is, I'm sure I think that she should have at least had this decency that the chairman of that committee, Jail Khanduri, who was a union minister in NDA 1. And her party, man. You can't just say bunkum. It's on record what the amount of the programs which have been stopped in the army. For example, you're talking about digitization. You're talking of the Chinese army becoming high-tech. Here the army has had to shut even the battlefield management system which was being worked for 13 years and the private sector has put in so much of money. So sorry, the money is not there. Just by sending an empowered committee out to get a few weapons is not enough. I mean you may be making the odd artillery machine by making India, but sorry. They're tremendous criticalities. So in a context where in terms of equipment and in terms of preparedness, particularly in what's called the revolution in military technologies, particularly with regard to intelligence, networking, we've seen that India is actually far behind where it needs to be. But along with that, the sense that one is getting in the country is that through various efforts of the government, the morale of the armed forces itself is reaching a rather low position. We have seen the controversy over one rank, one pension, where the military is very unhappy. Now we have also come across further developments and I'd like to go through two or three of these with you. The first I'd like to ask is with regard to the order of precedence and the equivalence between the civilian and the military personnel in the Ministry of Defense and in the ranks. What is your opinion about that? See firstly about the one rank, one pension, I would say that it was a tremendous effort by BJP to give what they've given, but that is not one rank, one pension. That is only one time allotment. And they said we will review after five years, which may also not happen. But what happens that even if they review, you know, the CHAP, the when the OROP was given is not OROP, the CHAP who's retiring next year is going to get better pension than this fellow. That's right. So it is actually not one rank, one pension, it's a question of a very small amount which had to be released. But that was made a prestige issue I think by the, I believe that Defense Minister Parikar tried to give it, but the Finance Minister put his foot down. That's right. That is one. Second is yes, there is a tremendous problem of equivalence. And the civilian defense employees in any case are getting more money, they're getting more pension, they're getting more, they have not been given the NFU also. On the defense states, which is supposed to be the most corrupt organization has been given NFU with respect from 2016. Would you explain NFU? NFU is like if I'm a major and my colleague gets promoted to a brigadier, I start getting brigadiers pay. Right. Now that is happening across the board in all the government organizations, but not in the military. But not in the military. Not in the military. They're targeting the military separately. And recently, if I'm not mistaken, the equivalence was sought to be further exaggerated by an order given which made even a deputy secretary rank official of the government of India equivalent to general staff. That was a letter which eventually they withdrew. That's right. But then what has happened is, for example, you take the civilian defense employees. Now recently, they have been given additional seven posts of principal directors, 36 directors, which is all on lies projected to the union government where they've taken a sanction. So by doing that, what is happening when that chap is a principal director, he's going to say in a meeting, I am the Srinagari. So there is a problem, there is a problem which is continuing which the government knows but is keeping its eyes shut. Second is about these defensive states. The Supreme Court had given orders that the encroachments and these 2,500 bungalows which had been occupied must be removed. In 2013, the CAG has given a report saying that this is the tiniest and the most corrupt organization in M.O.D. It should be scrapped. Their function should be merged into the Army and Navy Air Force. In fact, in 2013, Defense Minister Anthony had ordered a study into this but then government changed. Now what has happened is, you have imparted the defensive state, they are the land mafia. And you have given them all the parts. And now, to add to this, the defensive states, the undermining of equivalence of the armed services personnel compared to the bureaucracy, who are completely unaccountable to anyone. Now you have got this order declaring open the containment areas. The military is known to be extremely unhappy. Could you elaborate on the problems this is likely to cause? First I would like to say that it is an illegal order because you cannot put a, you cannot read the Kant board in isolation. If you read the official secrets act, that is the binding factor. That says that all military containment installations are prohibited areas. So prohibited areas you cannot have free access. If you go for free access, it is chargeable under the criminal penal code. Second, there have been n number of attacks in military containment. Here you have opened that you can go through like a thoroughfare. You go into a mall, you're vehicle is checked, you are checked individually. And here you are saying carry on. I am actually surprised that till now the no-terrors attack has taken place. I am also surprised that the opposition which would like to show the government in bad form has not organized the attack on to the families. So it is actually a legal order. But I'll also say that the order was given because it is linked with elections. That's why you have these stupid victory parades where I wrote, I said you don't have the guts to sort out Pakistan, so you are fighting against your own army. And with the land mafia. Because some thousands of acres of land has been taken over. The bungalows are with most of them are politicians. I had written, I said like in the Umballa, the strike core is there right in the center, Indian National Congress, Kumari Selja is occupying a bungalow. Opposite the strike core commander's house, there is some businessman who may be doing any amount of spying. I would say that all right, if the government wanted military to move out, you can say, all right, you are undesirable. You are undesirable force, but it is yet required. We are going to move you out. You make out a plan that over a period of five years, seven years, where do you want to go? We'll give you the land. Okay, there would have been no mutiny. But don't put this mafia behind to denigrate the soldier. Don't do Lathi charge on ex-servicemen there. Don't prop up these civilian defense employees who are unaccountable. Ours is the only ministry of defense in the world where there is no military professional end. I'd just like to come to that. But before that, this issue of the land, we have also seen this with Navy Yards, Navy facilities in different parts of the country. The former defense minister is today the chief minister of Goa and he is reported to be asking the Navy to vacate ports. You see, the tragedy is that in your greed for land and whatever you want to do, you do not realize the military didn't come into these areas of their own, on their own volition. In fact, they were away from the cities. You have permitted the encroachment gradually. You have taken no action which the ministry was supposed to take because you're making money out of that, you're making crores out of that. And now you're saying, why are you here? No, but where is the Navy going to be except on the coast? No, no, but he, Parikar said they should be on the Indo-Pakistan border. No, he actually said so. That is the irony. So there is the land issue again demoralizing the forces. I'd like to come to this issue that you raised earlier. And that is, you're absolutely right. India is the only major country in whose defense headquarters in defense ministry there is no military presence. How can you have effective planning, defense planning, acquisitions planning, armaments planning, equipment planning, all this being done without an integrated ministry of defense which has military professionals and the civilian bureaucracy? Is it possible? No, I mean, this is India, so it's happening. It should never have happened. When 2611 happened, after that we had this Indo-US defense policy group meeting every six months. First one was in Delhi. I was a Brigadier. And the US Department of Defense delegation which came, 80%, were either military on deputation or permanent absorbent. Correct. They were shocked. They said, how do you function? So this is India. Now you are doing long-term procurement plan. You don't have a national security strategy. On what are you basing it? Correct. On what are you basing it? You don't know what is to be done. And if a long-term strategy has to be formulated, it has to be done by the military. If you had that long-term strategy, your border infrastructure would not be in the states which it is today. Exactly. In December last, when the intrusion took place in Tooting, I don't know whether you, in Tooting area, it was discovered by Hunter by default. The Chinese had made 1.25 kilometer road inside in three feet of snow. It took 19 hours for the army to get there. The closest village which is Bishing, which is two days walk, doesn't have a road. Why doesn't it have a road? Because as per the Pradhan Mantri, Graham, something, Yojana, if there are people 100, here is your eyes. China has got 24 hours, 24 by 7 surveillance, satellite surveillance. Right on the border. We don't have. We don't have the surveillance equipment. There are troops sitting 60 to 80 kilometers behind in Arunachal. There is one issue, however, with this regard. It's correct. The civilian defense bureaucracy is riding roughshod over this entire thing. But they are allowed to do it only because the political leadership allows them to. Absolutely. It's not that the IAS cabal is running this thing by itself. Absolutely. It's only being done because the political leadership is allowing them to do so. So while pointing the fingers at the civil bureaucracy, one should really be questioning the defense ministry, the defense minister, the union cabinet. Yes. And when we're looking at all these acquisition problems, et cetera, there is a post we have called the Minister of State for Defense Production. And I've never understood what this gentleman has been doing for all these years. He's making money along with the defense industrial complex, simple as that. There is no defense deal in the world where there is no bribe. Yeah, sure. Whether here it's BJP or anybody. The difference is that like in China, if you're taking an individual bribe, they'll have you shot. There the money goes for the party. Here it goes for both. That is why we're still importing this much of equipment. But I'd like to ask one question about the integrated ministry of defense. While that is there, there is long been a proposal to have an integrated defense staff. But this has been mired in rivalries between the services and an inability of the three services to get together. Don't you think that if there had been an integrated defense staff, if the three services had taken action to bring this about, it would have given the military a more strong hand to deal with the bureaucracy than it has at the present. I partly agree with you, partly disagree. You take the case of UK. The bureaucracy made sure that the services keep fighting. That's right. The debate for the CDS carried on for 18 years. Till the political authority said, yes, you will have a CDS down your throat. There's no political authority here who has that guts. By keeping the people divided. You see, there are people who will be on the payroll of people across. Sure. Right? Who will make sure that your military is kept below par. I worked very closely with, I knew very closely George Fernandez. Because I have the Sajjan Brigade Commander, 10 days he came and stayed and whatnot. He opened this headquarter ideas. It was to be merged into MOD. That would have been the real integration. That's right. What they did is the mafia, they created this coffin gate. Made him step down. And after so many years, he's been absolved out of that. The first thing this government should have done is, merge the MOD with the headquarter ideas, but they don't want to do it. Because the mafia there, it is a political builder, bureaucratic knixes. But answer me this to wrap up this discussion. This is a government and a party which is supposed to have a reputation of being this muscular party standing for nationalism and the defense of the nation. Why is this government going after the military in the manner in which it is? Because the military does not vote. And they feel they can do it and get away. They're getting away with it. I was GUC, one core in Mathura. I have made entire one core vote for in the 2007 UP elections. I mean, I don't have the time to tell you, the politicians are coming to you. Here your military is 1.4 million. Election Commission has authorized you that a Johnny, say, posted in Delhi with a one-day service can vote, why don't the chiefs make it compulsory? Because they're making their own mockery. So they want to keep you divided, they will keep you divided. In fact, when I enforce that in UP, I asked my army commander, I said, do we tell the chiefs over what? You're the formation commander, carry on, we carry on. You know, when India got independence in the initial years, the civilian leadership, the political leadership of the country, was slightly apprehensive about the military, was always scared. And therefore, instituted a system where the leadership of the civilian bureaucracy and the political class would always be. Don't you think now 70 years after independence, with the stable democracy and stable institutions, it's high time that India got over these insecurities of the past? Two things I'd like to mention. One is that we are not a stable democracy. Second is the Ministry of Defense is the most unstable. Third, you're never going to have a military coup in India and you should not. The government knows it. In fact, in one of the articles I wrote, I said, if the government thought that they'll do military coups, they will not have two brigades plus sitting in Delhi. That is more than enough to do a military coup. You don't have to have Shekhar Gupta writing article, that's all drama because he was briefed by a minister. They know in their hearts, but they are continuing. It's the same thing like the insurgency in the Mahavis area and the Kashmir suits everybody who wants to finish it. Only the security forces, nobody else wants to finish it. So it's continuing. General Katoch, thank you very much for this discussion. We at NewsClick would certainly like to look further at matters of defense, national defense, and the role of the civilian bureaucracy, the political leadership, and the military, which today is going through a turbulent phase. Once again, thank you very much, and we'd like to have you back sometime. Thank you.