 Good morning everyone. Good morning to our week 12 of our class. Trust all of you are doing well. A warm welcome to those who joined us with the, at the e-learning, the e-learning students as well. Glad that you could come in and join in with us. So good to see all of you. And yeah, we shall start into the lesson for our week 12. Did you all finish your class late? Because I do see a smaller number than usual. Okay. All right. Thank you Avni. Okay. I think we'll get started so that we don't waste too much of time. The last week that we had met, we were talking about one among the last few skills. And we had gone through a micro-skill of influencing and personalizing and influencing. And we had a small part to finish last week, which, because of our lack of time, we weren't able to complete. And I'd like to finish that today and move into our next topic. It's very small. That is to do with the last part of when you're going through the process of counseling, of how you counseling is to move into action to start working or to start acting upon change or transformation for themselves. Okay. So it's a small part as in the sense of maybe as in the sense of a lesson, but of course, you know, it doesn't mean that during a counseling session that could probably take maybe one of the longest times as counselors go back and try certain plans and goals and strategies and come back. So just a quick overview of what really happens in, you know, through those times and through those sessions. And I'm at page 41, the very last section of initiating action. Could give me a minute. I'll just ensure that the screen is shared. Okay. So we're at the last phase where we spoke, where we had, we're taking ourselves through those skills. And up until here is where you would have gone with the planning stage with the counseling. So once the stage is one, once there is a planning stage, or you know, you've come to a place of influencing, you've come to a place where the problem has been personalized and, you know, they come to a place of saying, okay, this is what I am able to do, or I should be able to do to move ahead with my, with the, with what I'd like to do with the issue or with the problem. This is with respect to where they, or they start or they are in the action stage, they begin the action stage. Now, this is again called, but as the initiating stage and at this stage here is where the counseling moves towards the preferred state. So if you remember, they come, did anybody post anything? Okay. All right. Yeah. So, yeah. So this is a stage that they come into moving into the, the state that they've from, from, remember, we've always said a state A to a state B, they've come in with a bill or a problem from state A and they want to move to B. And that's what we call the preferred state. So here's where the counselor helps the counselor develop certain strategies for action and encourages them to implement plans and achieve those goals. So the counselor here helps the counselor by identifying appropriate and systematic steps that is suitable to their need and suitable to their resources. Now, these steps are of course taken very gradually in order to reach that goal. But the focus of this stage is to motivate the counseling to act in order to solve their problem. Remember, it is motivating them to act. And this is done by identifying what can be done to reach this goal and by taking those specific steps in a way that the counseling realizes that the goal is attainable. Okay. So in this stage, what, what do we do is we, we generally go through three tasks. Okay. And these are very broad. And so just to highlight this and I will take each of them one by one. The first one is to help counselors develop strategies for accomplishing their goal. So let's say there is a couple who come to you. This is just an example, a couple who comes to you wanting, having, having struggles with their daughter who probably wants to marry outside the faith. Okay. And so what are you doing after you've gone through the entire exploration, entire understanding phase. You've come to the initiating action. Okay. So we've skipped all of what's happening and we've just come straight away into figuring out how to help them. So what are you doing here with the parents in this case is you're helping them to develop a strategy on how they would like to accomplish their goal. Maybe their goal here is to move to a place of talking to their daughter about the, the alliance or the, or the relationship that, that they are against and to bring about a sense of communication with them. Maybe that's one of the, one of the goals that they have. So you help them, the counselors to develop that strategy. What can they do to bring about a communication to the daughter or another goal of this could be to help the daughter see or, you know, to really discover the, the relationship or the future of that relationship. What could be the outcome of their, that relationship, they would really like their daughter to look into a lot more in detail about her decision. So what kind of a strategy would, would the parents need to develop to accomplish that goal. So the, this, the goals is something that we determine in the previous stage, you know, what is it that you would want to have through what, what are you looking as an outcome. So you may establish two or three things. So let's say these parents have established one that they want to communicate to the open communication to their daughter. They want to help the daughter discover this, the outcome of a possible relationship like this. Maybe they have other, other goals as well. Okay. But this is something that they are establishing. The next thing you do is once you help them to develop those strategies, you help them to choose the best fit strategy. So they may decide like, for example, in the first one to open up communication, they may decide to invite the daughter into a counseling session. So that could be probably one strategy, or they may say, okay, the second strategy would probably be to get maybe an elder of the family or, or maybe, maybe a pastor to talk to the, to the daughter. That third strategy will be to, you know, just have that open communication with it. So they may have certain, certain different strategies or alternatives that they may choose in order to meet the initial goal of communicating to the daughter. All right, or let's say they, another best fit strategy they may see is, you know, to invite the boy home and then have, have talk about these issues together. So there could be different, different actions that we're looking at a very positive family, right? There could be certain families who would want the strategy and say, okay, let's go, you know, let's completely lock her out in the house and not allow her to go out. So there may be many, many strategies that, that counseling may come through. So here, what are we doing is not, not dampening any, any strategy as good or bad, but just allowing them to list out what would be different strategies. And the other thing that you would help them do is to help them formulate viable plans. Not allowing her to go up. So you kind of discuss that and see the, the, how realistic that it is, how substantial that is, is something that you would continue to help in discussion. But broadly, while you are helping the counseling to move into action, you're helping them develop strategies, helping them develop different alternatives or bested strategies. Or formulating certain plans. So we take each one of it one by one so that we could just quickly, you know, kind of discuss this. So in the first one is, you know, bringing up possible strategies. So what is the strategy strategy is identifying and choosing realistic courses of action for achieving a particular goal. And, you know, it, the word strategy comes from, you know, identifying a course of action, especially during adverse conditions, you know, such as war. That's what, that's how the word comes, comes by. So what you're, you're doing is you're helping alongside with the counseling to understand what kind of actions will help them get this preferred. You motivate the think about different alternatives and brainstorm some, some solutions. Let's work together and try that. Let's see what are some of the areas that we could look into. And that's this technique. Excuse me, ma'am, we are not able to hear you. Yes, ma'am. That is called as the prompt and fade technique. And what do you do this? Am I audible now? I think I lost my connection for a bit. Am I audible now? Yes, ma'am. Sorry, I think I lost my connection for a bit. Am I audible now? Yes, ma'am. Yeah, okay. Sorry. Avni, could you help me with what you all heard last, please? Or somebody can help me with what you heard last? I mean, it was like two, three minutes, ma'am. We completely lost your voice. Oh, really? Yes, ma'am. Okay, okay. So then I'll just probably work through this slide again. So we were, we were looking at initiating action and we said there are three tasks that need to be done through this source where you're helping them to initiate action. The first one is you're looking at a strategy. What are the different strategies of dealing with the problem? So it is identifying and choosing a course of action so that you can achieve a goal. Okay. And here, what are you doing is to helping the councillor see what are action points or what are plans of action that can help the councillor to reach their preferred state or to reach things that they need. Or they want that you have determined alongside with them in the initial two phases. So here is where you would brainstorm alongside with the councillor to stimulate their thinking. You know, brainstorm with them to stimulate their thinking. There could be times that they find it hard to figure out or know what it is to do. That's when you can suggest alternatives and you use a technique called as the prompt and fade technique. Now, what does that mean? Here, it's the councillor prompting a possibility. You're prompting a possibility so that you can say the councillor says something like, you know, here are some possibilities. Let's review them together and see whether any of them make any sense to you or if we can suggest further possibilities from what we have discussed. Or you could say something like, you know, here are some of the things that people with this kind of an issue have tried. How does this sound to you? So that's the prompting. The fading part of the technique is keeping it from becoming advice giving and the councillor needs to think these strategies over and choose the right one and commit to them. So the prompting happens usually only when let's say the councillor is devoid of finding any more alternatives or any more strategies. So that's where there is a prompt that is done and the fading happens when you permit the councillor to think over these strategies and to choose whatever they may feel that they can commit to. So that's what happens in the first task of actually helping them with possible strategies. Now, when you're discussing these strategies, like we spoke about, these strategies need to be very specific. It needs to be substantiated. It should be specific enough to drive a certain behavior. Like for example, we spoke about this couple. Let's give them a name. Let's give them Mrs. A and B. Mrs. A, Mr. A and Mrs. B. So you're giving these strategies that you're developing with them should be specific. It shouldn't be vague, right, in the sense of, okay, maybe we should communicate to our daughter. Yes, that is an action, but it's not a plan. So you get into the specifics of it and say, all right, what would you like to communicate to her? When would you like to do it? What would be the essence of that meeting with her? What are some of the pointers that you will be looking at discussing? So it needs to be substantiated. That is, it challenges those parents' resources. Which means they may need to go and discuss with her as to when they will meet. So they may need to take that initiation rather than it just being a very general understanding or a general thought. The strategy should be realistic and it should be in keeping with the values of the counselling. Like for example, if the parents, Mr. and Mrs. A, if the parents have, you're suggesting, like one of the suggestions would be, maybe one of the strategies would be to have the counsellor speak to the daughter. Maybe their value is or they feel that they should be addressing the daughter first before they go to somebody, a third person. So these strategies should be in keeping in lines with what they value or what they are working on and not against that. So that's what we look at with the strategies. What should those strategies be? Now even as you are helping them build these strategies, what you would need to also do is to enlist support. Now what does that enlist support mean? Is who all would be the people who can help them achieve the goal? Now in Mr. and Mrs. A's case, there may be a pastor who's involved. There may be probably the boy who's involved. There's a counsellor who can be involved. So you are also ensuring that you have an adequate cushioning system for them to enable them to develop that certain strategy. Otherwise if they kind of work single-handedly, it may be difficult for them to achieve a certain goal. So when counsellors come to you, remember there can be two categories of counsellors. One who have a very poor social life, that is they don't have much of a social support system. And another set or another category who do have an extended social support system, but they do not know how to use it effectively. So helping them to work through this, first of all understanding which category they belong in so that you can tap into those resources. As a counsellor, you're also looking at ways that you can help them tap into their resources. Let's say for Mr. and Mrs. A, now they may have a whole lot of a social support system. Like for example, they may be part of a life group or they may be their own siblings who hold a good relationship with the daughter. So being able to explore different strategies also is helpful for them. For those who do not have a social life is when you need to get maybe ancillary support systems. Probably it is somebody outside of the family unit, maybe like a pastor or an agency or a counsellor or a centre depending on what the case is maybe. So through when you are developing this, you're also looking strategies, you're also looking at people or individuals who can help them to bring about the specific goal that they have. Now as you're doing this, here are some of the questions that you may ask. Who might help you do this? Who's going to challenge you when you want to give up? With whom can you share these concerns? Who do you think is going to give you a pat on the back when you accomplish your goal? Just so that they have someone outside of the counselling session, they have somebody else there who's helping them work through these challenges with them. Okay, now here's after which we move to the second task. The second task is you're choosing your best alternatives. And as we spoke about these alternatives or these strategies needs to fit their situation, it needs to fit their resources, it needs to fit their personality, it may need to fit their value. So whatever they are choosing among like we spoke about Mr. and Mrs. A, they said they will meet a pastor, they would themselves talk to the doctor, they will get the boy to come in and they may have four or five other things. So what you're doing is you're putting all of this on the table, you're doing those problem solving techniques, you're putting them all on the table and you help to evaluate the pros and the cons of each strategy. Like maybe you may get into a conversation with them and say, would you like to tell me what would your daughter feel if you were to involve a pastor? What would the pros and the cons be? So they may say something like, she doesn't come to this church, she goes to another church, so I don't even think that the pastor will really, she may really not pay attention, her respect to that person is not as much. So something like that. So you may need to help to understand this because then they are given the chance to really think through each strategy and say, I think in priority we will choose strategy two first, we will choose strategy three first and then we will choose strategy one. So that's what, that's what as a counselor that you're helping them do to get them to choose the best fit strategy. And the third one is to formulate a plan. So once they've chosen their strategy, you're helping them choose a specific plan on how they are going to go ahead with that. And here it becomes a lot more finer. The discussion becomes a lot more specific because it requires discipline. When are they going to do it? How are they going to do it? What happens if something were to go wrong or what happens if this person refuses? So you're actually going to develop a plan and develop a discipline on how that gets done. Even as they go through these plans, you're also helping them from being overwhelmed. The kind of assurance that you give them that you are alongside with them as they walk through these plans. And here you also search for more useful ways of accomplishing a goal. Maybe they had a plan of let's say speaking to the daughter, but they probably did it just before she was going to college. So you develop a better strategy. How could you do it in a more relaxed manner? Maybe going out for a meal together and speaking it over the table in a non-threatening fashion. So you're ensuring that these plans get better. The strategies may be done in a better way. So a lot of this happens with a communication of what goes on. So usually in sessions, when a plan is formulated, you kind of run the plan with them. And you give them the time to do what they have decided to do so that they can come back to reevaluate what has happened. Now the plans that you are helping them with should provide an opportunity to evaluate the realism and adequacy of those goals. So how realistic is it and how adequate are the plans to meet those goals is something that you are doing as you walk them through those plans. You're also making them aware of the resources they will need to implement that strategy. Like for example, the resources that they may have is to probably get the support of somebody else. Like we said, a pastor's support so that they could implement that strategy well enough or get the certain other resources of using their time or using maybe a more creative way of dealing with this. So I remember in one session with a couple, they wanted to let their parents know about their marriage, a young man and a woman. And they wanted to do it in a creative manner. So they actually kind of wrote up a story and wanted to present it to the parents. So all of this happened during the counseling session where they're making these plans in order to achieve a certain goal. You also help them uncover any kind of limitations or obstacles that may come by while they come to a place of attempting to accomplish their goal. What could happen if something goes wrong and working them through that. So that's what you would do in the plans. And lastly, it's an evaluation where you've reviewed the plans. They come back, they reviewed whatever has happened, reviewed how it has gone through, whether it has needed any kind of a modification. And you're also helping them to evaluate where they are at in bringing about the change that they initially saw. So this happens with an evaluation. Now suppose in this evaluation, one of the strategies didn't work. Then you go back to the first one and think of the next strategy to work on. So sometimes it's a back and forth. It's not that every time there is a particular plan that comes and the first strategy they use, they will be successful. Remember, it is the counseling that's prioritizing these strategies. So sometimes you may have to go back and forth, back and forth till there is some sense of satisfaction that the counseling feels about having reached their particular goal. So this is a place where you would evaluate and come to a place of soon, if the issue is maintained, if the issue is worked on, then you would look at termination. Or else, if there is the next issue to discuss or there is something else that comes up, maybe you will go back into the initiating action stage. Or you may go back into the initial self-exploration, self-understanding and action stage. So it could go here and there. But generally this is what the flow of a counseling session generally would take. Now while we initiate actions, let's understand this one thing that there are sometimes counselors that need more slack. And some counselors may need a lot more help in broader terms, outlining things in broader terms. Some may need a more detailed plan. And many often requires the guidance of the Holy Spirit through it. So remember, now even as we're taking this step by step, there are no formulas. On one hand, there's something what the counselor needs and then there is the guidance and the power of the Holy Spirit that works together. However, as a counselor, we are to take them through the stages because you would be amazed to see at what point the Holy Spirit takes over and brings about that change. So this is something that actually gives me a lot of calm because often we may do many things by the book or do many things by a stepwise. And you will just see the way that God amazes you in making things turn around for someone just maybe through an attitude change or through a certain strategy that they themselves have come about. Maybe all the strategies you've discussed in the counseling room, none of that has worked and the counselor himself comes up and says, you know, I just, I'm just learning to accept all of this and I feel so much more at peace. So it can, a lot of things can surprise you in a counseling room. However, we are called to do things in a way that help a counselor to work through things in some systematic orderly fashion, and you will see that the work of the Holy Spirit coming in largely through their lives. Okay, the last thing that I want to just bring up is to wrap up this entire thing that we've been learning from week three, I think week three or week four on learning about the counseling is learning process, as well as the counseling skills. Now, okay, I'm just going to put this up together. So if you look at this diagram, you would have noticed in the first half of the slide, you see the counselor skills and you will recognize the words attending, responding, personalizing, initiating, you recognize that. If you look in the bottom level, it's the counseling's learning process, which is self exploration, self understanding action. Okay, now, what does this chart depict? This depicts the various stages that both the counselor and the counseling passes through during the entire counseling process. This shows the relationship between the counselor's attitudes and skills and the learning process of the counseling. Now, although we learned it part by part, we first looked at the counseling process, then we looked at the skills. This diagram depicts how one thing leads into another. So if you look at this diagram, and if you can pay a little bit of attention to those arrows that are there, the attitudes, first and foremost, there are certain attitudes and you remember that, right? The empathy, unconditional positive regard and genuineness, the attitudes are adopted by the counselor, okay, throughout the session, throughout the therapeutic relationship. And this is needed to create and sustain this atmosphere of respect and trust that encourages the counseling to open himself directly and fully to the counselor. So what happens? In the initial stage, the attending skills of the counselor, that's the far left of that slide, you see attending skills. When you attend, when the counselor attends to the counselor, it affects the counselor to become involved. You see that thing that says getting involved. The counselor gets involved in the counseling process. So when you attend as a counselor, the counselor gets involved in the counseling process. Once the counselor is involved, the next stage begins and you will see that arrow going from getting involved into responding. The responding skills of the counselor begins to stimulate the exploration, the self-exploration in the counseling. This deepens the discovery of the counseling and enables the counseling process to move into the next stage, which is onto the personalizing and the influencing stage. The personalizing stage or skill of the counselor stimulates the understanding, the self-understanding in the counseling. Where am I at? What is my contribution? What am I doing in this process that requires a transformation? So a clear understanding of their own participation or their contribution makes it possible for the process to move into the initiating stage, where the relevant action steps can be formulated to solve the counseling's problem. So all that we learned in the last couple of weeks has been summed up in this. So the minute that the counselor attends, the counselor becomes involved. As they get involved, the counselor moves into the place of responding. And as the counselor responds, the self-exploration is stimulated in the counseling. They begin to explore themselves. Lot more so as the responding keeps happening, the reflecting happening, to feeling, to meaning, to content. There is a lot of self-exploration that happens. Once they have self-explored, the counselor moves into the stage of influencing and personalizing. And that gets them into a place of understanding where they are at. What is it that is within them, their behavior, their attitude, their issues that's contributing to the problem, that moves them into the skill of, the counselor moves into the skill of initiating. They pick up on that and get them to move them into action where they are further helped during that process. And then once that initiating and action takes place is when there is a feedback and evaluation that goes on there. All right? Is this clear to, I mean, does this entire diagram give you some essence to what we've been talking about over the last few weeks and why it is essential to use the counselor skills in the same speed at which or, you know, it's more interdependent. When one thing is happening, something else is happening in the counseling. When something's happening in the counseling, the counselor takes on the charge of moving into the next skill. And that this runs in one to another to help them move from their state of problem into their state of solution or into a preferred state. I hope this wraps this around. Does anyone have any questions? Over here, we complete this, the entire source of the counseling process and the skills and all of that. And we're going to move into another section. Is there anyone with any question? Yes. Thank you, Pastor. So first is, I think my big question is around time. While I'm imagining everything, I'm imagining this to be like time to be a constraint, meaning, you know, if we want quicker solutions versus, you know, like reaching the goal fast versus going through each of these. Allowing it naturally because you don't want, I mean, you know, like we said, you know, we want the counseling to get involved, have self exploration, self understanding and action. And I don't know, so if you could just share, like, you know, you know, I think with experience, you would know what's the best step the counseling should take. What is the perception that the counseling is not seeing? What's that bit that counseling is not understanding and even sort of giving answers, you are holding back and allowing counseling to kind of take that. But at the same time, you're aware of, you know, how that's taking more time versus you just leading or your push being more stronger. So if you could just speak a little bit in time, like, do you feel time as a constraint as challenge and how do you kind of get through it? So that was one question. And then I think I have one or two more. Okay, so, so that's, that's an excellent question because you will have, when counselors come, they're coming from coming at different stages in their life, some just coming to resolve a problem, some coming to really sort out what is going on inside of them before they come to a place of resolving. So you will have different kinds of people coming. But then when you're looking at a counseling model, something that you need to pay attention to, if a counseling is not grounded enough. Now, what do I mean by grounded enough if they have not come to a place of settling of their emotions or settling of what is being very frustrating for them. It can prematurely, you know, get them to drop out. Because if let's say in the first session that you're getting in, you're getting on to a solution mode without actually exploring enough, you don't have enough of, you haven't helped discover and explore enough to really get to the root of the matter. You're working at a very peripheral at a very surface level. So you're actually just taking off the dirt and the scum of the above, but really not looking at all the residue that's, that's lying, you know, deep in the waters. So, and what what that happens is they, they may go back feeling empowered, but then you will soon, they will soon return with problem number two. Okay, now that doesn't mean that let's say if you've gone through this entire source that another counseling will never come back. That's not what I mean to say. But at least there is a greater awareness as they move into a lot more of discovery and exploring of their deeper issues. So there, there are times that if we, you know, when you feel pressured or when the counseling themselves pressure you and saying, you know, I, I just want to talk about what I can do. Right. And, and when you go in with that flow, you will probably begin to see that the counseling is in no place to take even suggestions that you have, or come with any willingness to take on any of your strategies. They will not. Okay, because they have not been to that place they have not been grounded in those what they are going through or they are those emotions. So in practice, I think I've always seen that if they aren't given enough time and an understanding that this is an important step that they explore and understand themselves and figure out what is going on in their emotions and in their thoughts and analyze their behavior themselves, it can lead to lead to an issue not being really resolved well enough. So that's something we explain, you know, especially when counseling is coming and said, you just tell me the solution. Let's not go into this. This is something I very categorically tell them that I do see there's a lot of impatience in getting into resolving it. But we may need to look a little more strong, a little more deeper into what is the source of this. Sometimes, you know, counselors are quite willing when you say, you know, the source of what you're going through. Right. I do understand that there is an external influence here. Maybe it's your husband. It's yes, that is there. But I'm sure you also would like to deal with what you're feeling and what your emotions are. Especially when you bring it back to them and what, how they can be empowered. I see in a lot of cases that they are willing to walk through that time with you. Of course, there are the impatient ones who will come for one session and then decide that, you know, that there was not a solution given. And I generally let them go because, you know, that's not what counseling is about. It's not about someone one up sitting and telling you, hey, one, two, three, four, five is the strategy. Go ahead and think, I'm not a prophetic counselor there. Right. And there is a certain healing that needs to take place. And I've seen that in many cases, that is something that we may need to go with. Unless, of course, they have already had a history of probably working with someone in the past. Okay. And because of some, some reason why the counseling hasn't been able to move ahead, they may, they may ask for something like that. But then for you as a counselor, a setback, you haven't really understood the depth of the issue there. Right. And that's why we always refer a counseling back to their previous counselor because there's, there's been a lot of discussion and knowing and understanding that's happened to restart this entire thing. Means I need to go back right from stage one. The counseling may be at stage three or four, but then if we need to be adequately able to help the counselor, we may need to get back in sync together. Okay. So these are different scenarios that I've that I've that I've given you. Okay. These are different scenarios that I've given you, but nevertheless, it's always useful that the, the counseling has a place where they need to be grounded in their emotions before they can set, set out to find strategies on dealing with their issues. Thank you. Thank you, ma'am. So what I'm hearing is beforehand, it's also essential to kind of realistically set expectations with the counseling that you know, this, this is, you know, even though it may seem urgent to arrive at the solution, but we need to, we need to spend quite a lot of time in the exploration part and kind of get grounded with what we're doing, like get to the heart of things. Yes. Yes. And, and you don't mind if, you know, because not, I imagine not all of, not all counselors might have that kind of time bandwidth because of various reasons. And, and some may even choose to drop out. Yes. Yes, many drop out. I think over 100% who come you'll have a good 30, 25 to 30% who drop out. And it's just like how someone goes to a doctor's clinic and say, hey, I want the answer right away. But it may take certain tests, it may take you to try out certain medication and then come back. Right. So this is, this is known even in a counseling room that there are, there can be 25 to 30% of dropouts. And I think a bit of my second question, I think a bit is answered. But the other question was like, you know, these somewhat are cyclic in nature, meaning you could go from one stage to another and realize that you might have to go back to the previous stage to some more work and come back and so on and so forth. So that, that sometimes can keep happening. Yes. Absolutely. Especially, let's say, if the, if the counseling wants to discuss one thing at a time, or they want to discuss something maybe with their kids, but nothing discussed with their husband. But as they see some improvement happening there, they may go back and say, you know, I have one more thing to bring up when all the while they haven't bought that up. You know, they bring. I can't hear you. Also we can't hear you. I thought it was mine. Sorry, apologies. I lost power and all our connection just failed. I'm sorry. So sorry. Yeah. Yes, Samuel. So you're right. We will need to do that once again, depending on the, on the issue. Yes, we will, we will need to. And the one, one last question process. This I've been carrying this question for quite some sessions now, which is, I see the importance of counsellor, you know, being empathetic towards a counselling You know, to move into the place of genuineness, like, you know, we very genuinely feel for the counselling and want to help the counselling. But really see what I'm thinking is like, what if a person who's coming in for counselling, you know, with some initial conversations. I, I don't like that person so much, like just his nature, maybe arrogance or maybe. You mean a counsellor counsellor. I don't, I don't approve, not not approve, but I just see a lot of maybe I find the person too arrogant. I find him full of himself or herself or and whatnot. And, and, and I understand the problem is genuine. Maybe it's too early for me to say like, you know, have you looked at yourself like things like that. But, but at the same time, you know, but, but then I also know that if I don't like this person, you know, it'll be difficult for me to help this person. In general, I would be just doing it because I'm a counsellor and because this person is like, it's because I'm in that position where I've offered help to everyone. So how do you force yourself to probably like someone who you don't seem to like something like that. Okay, so excellent. I mean, Samuel, you're really thinking. So there are two states in counseling that's called as transference and counter transference. Transference is when the counsellor has a certain, you know, sees the counsellor transfers their emotions or their feelings or whatever they're going through to the counsellor. Or there is something in the counsellor that brings about maybe a reminder of somebody in their lives and the way that they relate to the counsellor becomes very personal. Okay. And counter transference is the other way where the counsellor finds a sense of a relation issue with the counsellor. Now, both these are known to be counterproductive in counselling. Okay, where you're, you're, you're, you're, and sometimes this is unconsciously unconscious in its way. Okay, but then it's important. And that's why counsellors generally go through supervision to help themselves see the effect of a therapeutic relationship on their own, on their, their own state of mind or on, on the way that they are being a helper. All right. And what, what so during supervision, something that is rarely mentioned is, and this is, this is looked at very, very strongly, even in a supervision class. And that's when, you know, you need, you may need to refer out, because you're, if you're not being of help to the counsellor, you know, you're probably bringing about a lot more damage because you're not able to subjectively look at your counselling outside of, you know, your own thoughts and thoughts and issues. I'll give you an example. Once I, while I was working in a hospital, there was a, there was a young person who reminded me who, who I think I was, I reminded him of his mother. Yeah, I reminded him of his mother. So his, every time he came in for sessions, he would, he would become actively accusing of me. You know, in the sense of, you know, he would talk about, you know, how something I didn't do right, something I said was not right, something I approached was not right. So there was, there was constant accusation every time. Okay. And there came a point of time that I couldn't take it and, and, you know, I did go up to my senior and I said, you know, this is not, this is something, it's evoking something in me now. Now there seem to be a counter-transference. And I'm not able to objectively help him. So then we sat alongside with him and, and kind of told him that maybe, you know, this relationship doesn't work and it's okay when counsellor-counsely relationships don't work. It's better that you move to another therapist. So we got that done. All right. And, and that's important to do if you feel and you see that it's not helping your counsellor in any way, or you're beginning to see transference issues from the counsellor and letting them know that maybe this is not a helping relationship and you may need to, to, to, to terminate it and hand them over to somebody else. So, and those are hard decisions. Some, sometimes, especially counsellors with personality disorders don't take it very well. And they can, they can get extremely upsetting, but then those are some of the boundaries that we do, do put up, because knowing the, that we're here there to help and not to damage them even further. I hope I answered that, Samuel. A part of it is still somehow missing, which is, you know, like, ever, you know, like, kind of push yourself to, like, how do you, I mean, like, get past your initial, in the example that you gave it was, you know, his, the counsellor's perception of you. Okay, so you're saying your own perception. Your own perception of someone as like, you know, to get over that, to be able to help that person. I think it is again, very similar for you. If, if you do sense that you're not able to take on something because of something you've noticed in them, you should be genuine enough. Remember, we spoke about those attitudes of genuineness, that, that's where you drop it. You need, maybe you don't have to tell them that you don't like their attitude or, you know, their smartness or whatever. That's not, but you could say that you sense that you, you may not be of help to the counsellor and it may be important to, to refer them out. And you can say that. And that's fine to do, not that you may, you may gel well with every counsellor who comes to you. You're also, you're also a human being and we understand that, you know, we, we ensure that we take care of that and not be in a place of forced help rather than in willing, willing help. Okay. All right. Okay, I think we'll close for a 10 minute break and we'll return at 11 for back to class.