 All right, this is the Rex meeting for Wednesday, May 9th, 2018. This is our monthly check-and-call And I'm going to start with a poem by Robert Graves titled in broken images He is quick thinking in clear images. I am slow thinking in broken images He becomes dull trusting to his clear images. I become sharp mistrusting my broken images Trusting his images. He assumes their relevance Mistrusting my images. I question their relevance Assuming their relevance. He assumes the fact Questioning their relevance. I question the fact when the fact fails him. He questions his senses When the fact fails me. I approve my senses He continues quick and dull in his clear images. I continue slow and sharp in my broken Images. He in a new confusion of his understanding. I in a new understanding of my confusion Let me read that again in broken images by Robert Graves He is quick thinking in clear images. I am slow thinking in broken images He becomes dull trusting to his clear images. I become sharp mistrusting my broken images Trusting his images. He assumes their relevance Mistrusting my images. I question their relevance Assuming their relevance. He assumes the fact Questioning their relevance. I question the fact when the fact fails him. He questions his senses When the fact fails me. I approve my senses He continues quick and dull in his clear images. I continue slow and sharp in my broken images He in a new confusion of his understanding. I in a new understanding of my confusion I like because I think I think what we're doing is a sense-making journey and we are busy trying to figure out What are our images and what do our senses tell us and what do other people tell us and there's this whole notion of the Scripts in our heads and and how they seem to light up the road ahead and sometimes it's the wrong road So I thought that would be a nice place for us to start today How is everybody more or less good? I'm in Seattle. So yeah, oh interesting. How's Seattle? It's been lovely nice excellent Does the poem suggest anything or light anything up for anyone You know, I had a a weird Twinkling of the fox in the hedgehog You know the fox the hedgehog knows one great thing The fox knows many things, you know this idea the fox is quick and Has touches on a whole bunch of things, but never very deep the hedgehog is deep But only touches on one thing at a time, and I'm not sure if there is an alignment or if that's basically a Contrast to the clear images and broken images Mm-hmm Is it is it orthogonal or is it the same message right and I I don't have an answer for that But that was just what Pumped into my head as I was listening what showed up. It's funny that the fox and hedgehog thing shows up now and then And I'm never quite sure what to make of it or even how to describe myself because I feel like I'm a hedgehog with fox Like attributes and I'm sure that that would make Berlin like crazy Because I I'm like I care about so many different things. I'm really broad in that way, but I can go deep on a bunch of things So it's I Can never quite harness the the saying in different ways hybrid vigor Hybrid vigor Denise Caruso You're a fox a fox hedgehog hybrid Interesting I like it a raccoon a raccoon. I'm not a raccoon I'm not a dog either or a fox Hey, let's let's have everybody check in Jerry. Yeah, that sounds great. Would you like to take us in? How about that? Well, I'm reading my second translation of the Odyssey Uh-huh, and I've been Contrasting that with the Bible because you know, it is really the cultural transmission document of the Greeks and And then I read this great essay on the Odyssey and it really Shows a very radical difference actually from the Christian ethos and today's Jewish ethos Mm-hmm, and it was that the Odyssey is all about they even use it in Greek in the original Dissusizing, you know, he's he's actually used as a verb and it's about yeah You can have your perfect life with Calypso this goddess who wants and you know You can have heaven like the Christians provide have this heaven he has it with Calypso and he doesn't want it He wants life's storm and strewn and challenge and death And it's so great to think that that's how that that was the value by the Greeks They never messed around with this, you know when you die It's gonna work out for you take life on by the by you know by the horns now And think that the one of the base documents of their culture is about that So I'm really excited about what I'm learning and I've been comparing Contrasting George Elliot with with fielding and just seeing because you know that well educated Europeans knew both documents and I've been looking at like in Tom Tom Jones, for example He's more of a Greek hero But he's called an anti-hero in the West because you know he has sex and he does you know he has fun Whereas George Elliot she has very you know more black-and-white heroes and heroines along the Christian lives She's herself was anyway, so that's what I'm doing. I love that and then in part Multiple things partly partly you're sort of leaning toward the kinds of things that I'm looking forward to us having a pop-up call About which is you know what how how are the insights of the Victorian era? Relevant to the quest that we're on here Partly I'm also reminded of origin stories and how they work because April is deep into a dive into yoga and the history You know the origins of yoga and history of yoga, so I'm gonna ask her to check in next Because I think that maybe this resonated just a wee little bit Exactly Is that over to me? Yeah, if you don't mind um Sure, so it's good to reconnect with everybody. It's it's been a while Last couple months at least I've been mostly gone. I am in the midst of well various things on the like portfolio front and whatnot, but the most Significant update. I think is that I'm in the midst of a 200 hour course, which is technically yoga teacher training course So I will be certified to teach yoga at the end That's not the primary reason. I'm doing it. Although I like I like the certification It's more to go to dive deeper into the history and philosophy and beyond the physical practice And so we're learning about everything from the Vedas and the Upanishads to If any of these terms Resonate or have been heard by any of you and interestingly so it's basically It's a 11 week course and it's 20 hours a week so it's as Jerry knows it's the studio has become my second home and Consumes my entire weekends and much of the week as well This is the first time that I have really studied something like this in a course kind of format since Grad school that feels really good. It's also a bit of an adjustment It is worth mentioning my class has about 25 people and the youngest is actually in college and the oldest is in his late 70s So a really neat really neat breath to show kind of yoga on many Many ages and then also in my class we have people from China from Portugal from Germany from Ireland and Pretty much every corner of the US. So it's really fun also to learn about yoga through different languages and that kind of thing last weekend Coincidentally, we did do a piece of the history of yoga and so Funnily enough bow the Odyssey came up and just the overlay not the Odyssey with specifically with relation to Yoga but what was happening elsewhere around the world and so learned about you know It's origins basically in the caves of the Himalaya and then how it ended up in India And then how it ended up, you know It's entry into the US and Western civilization is very very new and by it you mean yoga here yoga Yeah, yoga didn't show up in the US until basically the early 1950s But but it's history within you within India and all of that But then looking at even it didn't show up in India until much later as well But looking at what was happening around the same time that in particular so the Vedas were the earliest Basically scribes and scriptures and those date back to about 1500 BC None of them were written down. It was all oral and then the Upanishads are the first written record Those show up in India roughly 400 BC And by that point, you know, we're into the classical era and so then there was just an interesting conversation Anyway, not that we need to get into all the historical details I think for me the biggest update is really one on a personal level taking the time to Invest this amount of time and stuff that's not related necessarily to what I do and Kind of go through this other this whole other process which is far beyond the physical But I think it's as Jerry knows it's it's cracking open sort of new parts of me Which is really exciting and then secondly on the professional note I think it's very clear to me that this training is Going to show up in what I do in my portfolio and the dots that I connect in all of that Not necessarily teaching yoga, but you know the work that I'm doing on these other fronts whether it's the new economy or citizenship or whatever and I'm really enjoying although struggling a little bit, you know, just to sort of trust the process of How is it going to show up? What are those connections really leaning into some very new space in the hopes of being able to I guess you could say level off everything that I'm doing. So I will pause there Just a couple things April Christie did that my wife Christie did the same thing you did not to become a teacher But learned all that like you did and oh fabulous And I think it was really rewarding and enriching for her Yeah, that's kind of how I'm feeling right now is to just sort of trust the process and Dive as deep as I can and prioritize it as much as I can and not worry about well. What is that outcome? Because I can tell already that personally it's profoundly profoundly helpful and satisfying It's just the question of whether or not there is Some other layer. So thank you when we're in week right now We're in week four of 11 just to give everybody a sense of where I am in this journey So the next monthly call I'll still be in the class and the one after that will be done And I have to riff off 400 BC So so interesting how the Bible the Iliad the Odyssey and and the punish odds all earned like a 300-year period of time that all these cultures manifest that it's really Astonishing that these origin stories really aren't not that separate from each other in time. Yeah, it just makes me really question Or find it hard not to believe or not to imagine that there wasn't Just either some kind of special energy and on the planet at that point in time or more interaction and inter exchange than we Generally tend to think is the case Wonder if there's also an element of that's when it became Became more possible to create create text that could be handed down I mean the history of writing affects this whole thing because most many of these traditions are oral oral oral oral And there's really interesting Aspects of oral traditions sort of like right like folk music is folk music is very different from music written down as notes And then that's the song so I think the the oral traditions are have their own fascination and then Writing I don't know this. I'd love to get a historian who understands the effects of writing to come into our conversation Hey, Bill and To sort of note this because writing affects the stories in different ways and kind of pins them down also makes them More accessible and you know with the advent of the paperback Democratizes the texts in in ways that are interesting. So I think all things all these things figure in Also, there's you know the axial age Which is when a lot of the big religious leader leaders show up is sort of also a band here that that that's worth talking about And it's all these are all the deep-rooted stories of our lives, right? and different cultures use these texts as their foundational documents and and And they've got their different journeys and their different struggles and their different They form like the backdrop of all the civilizations of That we're living with the effects of those stories today every day exactly and but we and we also Frame how life treats us and what our realm of possibilities are Within the frameworks of these stories in different ways, right? But April as you've been sort of looking at the As you've been hearing some of the stories of the origins And you haven't I mean you haven't been become a scholar of the Vedas or anything like that. So I'm not asking that but but Have aspects of the stories resonated with your own journey in different ways. Can you just call call call that up a bit? Oh Completely so it's less about we don't learn a lot of thus far We haven't learned a lot of the stories except for the well-known ones like when you know a princess gets kidnapped to Sri Lanka and like the Ramayana or something exactly not and that just shows up almost anecdotally What we've focused on more in here. Let me grab it real quick so I can read them for you these things called the yamas and the ni amas so y a ma and Ni what y a ma and they're easy enough to find online but Basically the yamas are things that you seek their principles and they're sort of five yamas and five ni amas and The yamas are things that you seek to steer away from like externally and then the ni amas are things you seek to turn towards or You know lean into internally And so it's everything from you know the truthfulness Pete truthfulness non-stealing moderation non-harming non hoarding Things like that, but it's a really broad Like we do a deep dive into one of we take one of those things per week and Spend two to three hours just looking at one principle and talking about it learning about in this and the other and I just bring up one for example, which is Like non-stealing which is the third yama, it's called a stea in Sanskrit But non-stealing where we can think of that as okay Not stealing, you know a lot of a lot of times It's physical possessions and things like that, but they said no you know This is about every kind of stealing possible This is and the most common one these days is also what are the things that we do that steals that stealer robs our time? Right, I mean that's a form you seek to steer away from anything in which you're stealing Something from yourself or something from someone else So robbing one's time and that's not just spending time on social media. That's the negative thoughts on our brain That's all of these other things that I don't typically think of as stealing But it's absolutely robbing myself of becoming my full, you know reaching my full potential or doing the things I want to do obviously you also then end up in in conversations about stealing from others stealing also for the for This tradition absolutely meant you cannot steal anything most of all from the from the earth so then you get into You know extractive practices Sustainability supply to all of that sort of stuff as well So I use that just as one example of a nugget that we take that nugget of this principle that we seek to attain a reality of non-stealing and then we just peel back the layers of that onion and and and for me that's been extremely eye-opening Also really comforting to realize how even more than I thought before is connected and what it means though to change some of my own Lifestyle and practices to be more in alignment with what these Yamas and niyamas say because at the end of the day quite totally candidly when I read through all of them It's the closest thing that I've I don't describe it as religion in any way she perform But in terms of the path of life it is a very very well marked path And there's not a single thing about anything that we haven't learned thus far That I don't profoundly agree with and just kind of want to get like Allow it to sort of seep in as much as possible at a cellular level if that makes sense What's your meditation practice looking like now April? Not much actually Well, I shouldn't say not much other than So there are some so I haven't meditated explicitly prior to In general at all. I do a little bit in the morning stuff that I kind of make up We are there's meditation that's part of some of the classes that we take and as Jerry knows I'm I'm taking at least one often to and on one day three classes in a day So I'm in the studio a lot So there's a whole lot of meditation that is showing up through the classes that I'm taking But it's a great question because it's one of those things where it's not an explicit part of the course But there's a very much sort of indirect Tangential it's right there on the side piece of it and I think I know that in the second half of the course We go deeper in it. So we haven't yet And I also know that it's one of those things as soon as a little bit of time frees up from the yoga piece That I want to explore deliberately more further on my own as well So sorry, I don't have a like a huge like a fantastic answer, but it's at this point. It's been thus Thus far it's been more Combined with the other stuff, but if we were to talk at the end of the class I will probably have more to share I mean that's because I my cloud and I have been doing a like a kind of a monthly song Got that we're carrying over from Virginia with our neighbors, but now we're having to do it on zoom And and we're not meditating but we're participating in the songa and listening to Rinpoche and having these really interesting discussions It's kind of you know, so I've been puzzling over this, you know split between not wanting to practice But really enjoying kind of the intellectual piece. I do feel guilty about not doing the practice You know, so it's kind of six or eight people we get together We watch this guy this guy from Nepal's put together a video series where he gives us a lecture for 20 minutes Or so so we all watch the lecture we meditate we discuss the lecture, you know We trade stories about each other and it's you know It's probably the closest to spiritual out of spirituality that I have in my life right now But but it's pretty meaningful and we feel like we're learning a lot from it and you know I really should be meditating, but I haven't gotten there Yeah, Dave we're just in the in the process of checking in April. Do you want to do you want to add to that? No, no, we're good. I may come back later. Thank you. I was just gonna see if David if they wanted to check in Sure, I mean, I guess I was none of my stuff is as interesting as what you guys are up to The last couple of weeks have been focused particularly around and you know the pretty much all of the Free-thinking I do is around Regeneration how do we motivate a regenerative future? So last week I went to Kevin Jones's conference on regenerative economics and spend civil days there How was that? Yeah, what was that? Yeah, how was that? You know, it's interesting I was grumpy about it, you know, I hate the format It was all sage on a stage, you know Conference wanted to lecture everybody. There's a lot of people getting lectured in the conference So that was really irritating to have an open space component on the last day after they closed the conference kind of Which is drove me nuts. It did that the open space sessions. I went to had pretty good energy though So it kind of survived the attempt to kill it It was a pretty good group of people I think in some sense What I consider to be the core of people who are thinking about regeneration You know at least in the states or in this part of the state. So, you know hunter-lovings was there And and one of the things that signals was that she was willing to cooperate in a way that I didn't really didn't expect that She would so she showed up interesting and you know, they were kind of big in her cowboy hat in her cowboy hat Yep, exactly The capital folks from capital Institute. That's why I ran into Stewart calm I don't know if he's responded to you yet, but I do think there's really interesting overlap Yeah, thank you, that's a good connection, you know Kevin Kevin's just you know He stumbled across this idea six months ago and you know, he's all excited about it He wants to do another session based on indigenous behavior and return to the end of it in return to Indian Indigeneity, I think he's calling it. Oh interesting. Oh, I mean He's been doing neighborhood economics and a lot of it like work with indigenous puppets for a while But like neighborhood economics is a big big theme for him So he's been a been doing that So so it's fun. I mean, it was so it was interesting. It was probably useful You know, it wasn't as big a tent as I was hoping I was hoping I'd love to have this kind of vague concept of Regeneration the you know a direction for all of the globe kind of it seems to me that it's a basically I think the core narrative is It's a positive sum And and basically all the organizations that see the world as positive some should be supporting each other in that and you know And so there you know, he had some of the neighborhood economics folks He had there's a big core regenerative agriculture folks, you know, they kind of see themselves in the space already There was a smattering of folks who were doing other Not as many there wasn't new there wasn't a lot of new democracy people the new the new economics people weren't there You know, there's other kind of cohorts that I wish to come Yeah, it'd be really interesting to brainstorm to think through who are the groups that would have been really useful to have there Yeah, like that, you know, like like Doug Carmichael and the new economic thinking, you know, I net and all that like Like that those little those little mashups very different communities would be super to do and and maybe even as a as a format for You know next year's conference or something like that to to do a little super collider where you bring together These different unlikely couples and say, hey, how do your ideas? Mashed together what happens when we think about this together? I like that a lot Well, and that's been to you know, kind of growing up in coming out of the conference of productive things I've ended up having a really good conversation with Kim pronounce his name, right? Theodore You know him he's a bushing guy working with manual or the institutional evolutionary leadership Institute I think is what they call their thing You know, I don't know him. What's his last name? Can you try to try to pronounce it again? Yeah, let me try that let me just Because right now I just would type random characters for what you said. Yeah, right, that's pretty much where I Mean, that's right. Let me just send you the cool in the chat, but um And so we ended up talking about what's the regenerative internet look like and having some you know Just kind of trying to think about what it you know, what's a protocol of This network and and what ties it together and that's been in conversation around narrative So in my mind, I guess I'm wondering if Narrative it's in some sense the glue that holds the network together And it doesn't doesn't have to be a grand expansive network Narrative what you really want is just a core. You just want enough overlap I don't agree that we're allies, you know, and then you're willing to play together So what would that look like so we're kind of and I was thinking we're thinking in terms of solving it But back to internet metaphors, right? So I think we're gonna try to draft the first request for comment on the regenerative internet And you know try to try to put some thoughts out there about what it What what the kind of behaviors and rules of play would be if there were all these different groups were connected How would that what would that look like? That's really interesting. Yeah, I like that The idea that narrative is something that binds a group together and the the word that comes to mind for me is myth Mm-hmm that is actually that there are core myths to many groups and that myth does not have to have to mean falsehood But it means a a narrative that imparts History and meaning Through through the course of a Essentially of a fiction that fiction can be very close to reality Yeah, remember the LMO. It's a good one You know and so you can have So I'd be actually really interesting. What what do you think is the origin myth for Rex Jerry? Or not an origin myth. What is the myth underlying Rex? Um, well the myth trust matters It's interesting. No, I mean the thing I say a lot that I believe quite deeply is that long ago We used to understand how to live in community on the commons and that is my personal myth and I I Can have hue to that because I use it to contrast with models of humanities ascent from Violent tribal stupid nature, which I I'm like no, I don't I don't think so I think I think we we long ago figured out a lot of good stuff that we've managed to stamp out In fact, they're busy rediscovering now in kind of naive ways So that's a piece of it I think and then there's another part of it which is about trust which is related because if you know how to live In community on the commons There's a lot of things that you're trusting about what it means to be in community about how nature acts and reacts About how you interact with nature and you know about observation all that all that sort of factors in So I think there's there's aspects of trust here where where the myth is that Acting from a basis of trust is better than leads to better outcomes than not and I'm phrasing that not as a myth so much as just a belief maybe but but I think I could point to stories. I tell It's interesting to frame this as myths because there are stories. I tell as examples of these different beliefs I have mm-hmm, I Love your question to me by the way, and you're you know myths being false is a modern pastiche on the word what the word actually means is oral tradition. That's what myth means That's the original definition. Yes. So Jamea. I love where you went there Mm-hmm. One of the things that strikes me is how many myths that are deeply important to cultures are violent misogynist horrible things like like They're they're dramatic tales, but many of them are not things you'd want to live through. Yeah It's insane it's insane. Yeah, yeah So in the spirit of checking in Bill, how you doing? I you're muted You're still muted Everybody do this to bill. Yeah, Bill. We can't hear you Okay, I'm there we go now. You're unmuted now. You're in computers Exactly my overlay to what Jamea was saying is to add to the myth of visceral element in other words I'm reading I've posted them some books immortal self by Arvindah Imadra, which is basically getting into the the effect of the Amartya masters in Tibet And but more important the biology of transcendence by Joseph Chilton Pierce Which he really gets into both the mechanics of biology and in essence the transcendence part Which is that there's a field effect In other words if you take the morphogenic field concepts Rupert Sheldrake etc the fact that in essence a felt body experience of visceral experience of what's going on the world to me is what's wrapped up in the myth making and Whether there are stories that we're making now or Experiences that we're having now and getting together and reaching results through a relationship to me is the Reinforcing aspect of the field in other words the field is going to hold whatever has been and whatever is and to the extent That there's more of the has been in other words more experience of we know What's in the Bible or whatever and that if you're a fundamentalist you're committed to that being real You know whereas for 2,000 years. Yes, okay, maybe Patriarch and and male domination has been real but before that for 3,000 years. It wasn't real They had to remake it and they did it in a very violent way to to take control of that myth making and so now We're going back to Well, what are the alternatives and to me? That's the fundamental Shift that Rex is about going back and and getting a sense as to what's really possible through relationship as opposed to domination Because we sort of exhausted reach the end of the potential or at least we're feeling the tension of the end of the potential of Domination in other words, I want it and I want it now as Opposed to I would really like to have a better Feeling about this, you know, I may want to get let's say, you know a good house But if it's a tiny house and I've got a good community around it, isn't that better than just having a house? You know, that's twice as expensive or five times as expensive as I really need Etc. Etc. In other words, the relationship aspect is becoming more and more You know sort of like in our face or in our sense and to me that's part of the myth There was a myth isn't just a story. It's it's a sense that you're yeah, that really did You know, I get it, you know what that myth was about and that's what we're trying to do is read Redo our myths but do it in a way that feels better. I'm gonna sit in my way Rex as cultural engineers Right. Hmm. And and if you take that phrase cultural engineers and really really really go deep You realize that it doesn't happen by just having let's say a white paper. It has to happen viscerally It has to happen in the room happy has to happen here not here Right and and to take that as a step further gay Hendricks work basically Really gets into what he calls a 10-second miracle Which is where you concentrate on making sure that you feel it here as opposed to in your head In other words, okay, you had that idea, you know, that this is wrong or this is right Where did you feel that in your body? Because where you feel it if it's in the throat or the shoulders is different than if it's in the heart area As opposed to the stomach area, and if you start paying attention to that you start paying attention to the field effect of What's going on in other words? It's not just about you as just you in your head It's you as a an accumulation and as an exchange with the relationship Environment that you're in and and just going back to you know, what comes out of all this The fundamental shift is got to come in this sense of our having more experiences of feeling safe in relationship In other words too much of our marketing and consumerism and business control Orientation it starts from the assumption of scarcity, and I've got to go get it and make it mine Mm-hmm. I like how you by the way safe. I think is related to trust Absolutely totally 100% You know, and that's a very difficult thing To wrap your head around because of the fact that at the end of the day trust to an extent if you go back to Some of the original work that was going on comes from you trusting you First because the more you don't trust you Then in essence you're gonna put up armor. You're gonna put up protective shields You're gonna you're gonna have not trust come first until it's proven all of this stuff Which which if you can trust you to stop hurting you Then no matter what happens in the world You're safe Because you're gonna be able to deal with it You know that it's gonna rain. There's gonna be lightning. They're gonna be problems that occur They're gonna be relationship issues, but if you trust that you can handle all that Then you can allow more trust in the world around you Not and partly this is the grace with which you deal with everything in coming, right? And if you trust yourself more you're able to deal with all those things better in different ways interesting In the spirit of check and bill are these things live for you right now and activities you've got on the on the ground We're in our center for social change We have challenges from time to time and one of our couples is getting a divorce right now And so in essence they're fighting over equipment and we just happened to find some of the equipment and I I put it in our locked Environment and so I'm negotiating with them to be able to to resolve these things But one of the things that I've asked the woman because she's the one that's more Challenges in her life and there was a very difficult growing up with a mother that was totally control oriented and made life difficult for Etc. I wanted to do breathwork and so you know because that's of the place where you can finally start to take your own responsibility for your own Improvement in the words creating a better relationship with the world Because you clearly grew up in an environment where you couldn't trust the world you couldn't trust your mother So at the end of the day Getting her to a point where she can trust that is something that we're constructing in other words. Fortunately her Psychologist likes the breathwork person that I use and I've done you know eight sessions with him and and all of this kind of stuff In other words to deal with my own issues And I'm going to a retreat next weekend with me. Is anybody familiar with with me down in Costa Rica Heard of it, but no nothing about it. They do a combination of both breathwork and ira Iroa ayahuasca So they did I can I can go deeper into the whole process But but it's issues of where your your lack of trust are you know in other words What are the ingredients so that you can unwrap that and be safer in play? I mean that's the bottom line of Children pierces work is that our real purpose in life is to play But we don't feel safe enough to be willing to do that and it's that challenge I'm sure everybody on this call is aware of the attachment theory in other words Bowlby and the concept that you know at age one We either are attracted to in other words rely on our mother to be safe so that we can explore Or we don't at which point we become very controlling and anxious and and acting out with respect to issues of Exploration and so if you can play at exploration in other words, it's okay to play at it with the expectation You're not attached to the result and you're not Depending on the result because you know that you can be safe even if you play wrong That's fine, but we're not there yet We're not we're still in a control because we think that we have to control the outcome in order to be able to To be good at it to be able to get the good outcomes You know and obviously there are a lot of spiritual things that say no, that's not true You can get awfully good outcomes without being in control Mm-hmm, and that's sort of what the Immortal self the book is about in other words that that we're coming to that kind of tension within culture and society That is propelling us to explore trust Which to me is what we're doing on this call every every time we get together We're exploring it so that we can start to be more trusting of it Thank you, and thank you also. I really like how safety Has made an appearance in this conversation, and it's just so relevant in so many ways. It's a it's a very nice Lens through which to see trust And our relationships to it over time. Yeah, thank you Todd do you want to jump in? Todd you're muted, and you may not have heard what I just said, so Maybe we jump to mark. Oh, it's Todd's coming in Yeah, I just needed to do multiple controls there I'm not on video today because I'm preparing to leave for a little trip, but I Really appreciate the richness of this conversation The first thing I wanted to mention is on last month's call Asti Solomon Took us into a project that's kind of been In bed deep within her for a number of years around a new grammar of productivity And I've been able to spend Oh almost five hours with her since then and I think in the next month we will have a group call around where that project is at and the input that is needed and To get your responses, but it's a very rexie endeavor to think about if we get away from Tasks and goals. What are the ways in which we can remind ourselves how to have an impact in the world How me as an individual what is what is helping bring me back into a place of impact? So I've really enjoyed that and I look forward to taking that helping us to take that to the larger group That's awesome And just and just a reflection when you said remind and you pause between the the syllables a little bit I'm reminded that a lot of what she talks about is multi-minding and she plays a lot with the meaning of mind So to remind is not just to remember or to remind somebody but rather to re-articulate and reshape and Rethink your mind itself. So that took me just the way you said the word Took me deeper into that right there And that was unintentionally intentional Because that is the focus to be able to Move between minds to essentially tend different areas of our self and life and I think the most relevant update is that I Have a new client that is both a Joy and a stretch So a an organization called courage together that has had a Corporate government and nonprofit training program called respectful confrontation for over ten years For those of you who have known me for a while, you know that I'm passionate about embodiment so April I was So much enjoying what you were saying and knowing that it's going to have an impact and you don't exactly know how But this training program is the first That I've witnessed that actually brings embodiment practices Into a C-suite And it's around four pillars of personal power being grounding focus flexibility and strengths And there's practices There's theory and then there's practices for each of those those pillars that have come from Tai Chi martial arts And other forms of Eastern spirituality So I am Deep in that now understanding the theory and then understanding the pragmatic elements of What does the business need and? What is the the story that needs to be told? but and it's It's wonderful to be able to step back and see that more and more projects coming my way are ones that I Have a deeper level of care about Fewer clients than which I have to force myself to do something in order to keep the The work flowing in and and more projects that are meaning-filled Well, Mark how's how's the team? So, yeah, there's a lot of themes in this discussion so far that resonates and Actually in terms of minds I've been thinking a lot about that because You know we talk about intelligence artificial intelligence How do we get ethics into our software and I Love the Sanskrit word chita CI to TA Because it it means both heart and mind and And I've been struggling to find you know, is there an English equivalent and I have not come across that But I think it's important in terms of you know the words we use kind of Identify what our ontologies in that term a little bit, but you know what what what that is and Anyway, so that that's a One one theme Another is locality and global and local and global so I'm prepared to take part in this program here in Nova Scotia In Canada called how we thrive and this is put together by some of the people who've put together the alia Authentic leadership in action program happens over 11 years a while ago and those are kind of more global, but this is low I Think that That relationship between I've been looking at the Summaries Todd I think it might be noise on your end, but some one of us is putting a lot of noise into the channel. Sorry can Can you mute go ahead mark? Sorry? I was looking there's this global challenges foundation contest to come up with new shapes and paradigms of global cooperation governance and Collaboration and they had 2,700 proposals submitted. I mean I did one myself and They're 14 finalists and looking at them. I'm trying to identify Here's a great opportunity for harvesting what are ostensibly some of the best ideas about Dealing, you know with the world even though I recognize that the selection process for coming down to 14 was probably highly Individual and you know, I probably would have done differently With that local to global aspect I think is very much there and I think there's a lot of hope In terms of starting on a kind of ground-up basis and working up. So, you know people have ideas on You know clubs of cities and Starting on a lower lower than nation-state Level and that's and that's and that resonates with this how we thrive conference That I'm looking for ways of well, maybe how do I contribute that kind of dimension to? So And in terms of yoga and Myth and so on it's awesome to come back to you know, how do we work with our heart minds not just our minds but our heart minds and And is that's kind of just Whistling in the dark because you know, we always say oh, it's only human people will always be this way So what's the point of trying to work on this kind of level of you know directly working with our minds and our intentions? But I think over the course of history we do change I mean certain things are no longer acceptable in civilization You know, we're still struggling with others And also I think one new thing and this has become much more apparent the last number of years is The extent to which our tool systems the kind of technology as we create feedback on our own minds on our own hearts in our ability to Have wisdom and to act wisely to proceed correctly. So, you know, like one of the takes I have from Kind of I mean that the surface of the iceberg is is Facebook and you know And so on but it seems like what's been going on is that Kind of semi blindly going along with the business model of oh, we really grace technology Let's make it available for free. You know pay for it ads. How do we? Optimize ads well, it's a race to the bottom basically so our I saw the study saying our average attention span has gone down from 8.6 to 6 seconds and we're monetizing fragmented attention And then that has our effect an effect on how as a suppose a democracy for example How we deal with our own issues so there's this interesting feedback from the tool system back to the human system we're basically we're destroying the very root of our awareness and That's an interest, you know for someone who's worked in the internet and techie area for decades It's very sobering to showing how yeah, of course, we're good well-intentioned and set her up But still we're conducting like a mass experiment on really billions of people and And we're seeing some of the results Anyway, so those are some of the themes I've been kind of working on Love that and the conference sounds super interesting Can can I pick up? Mark just one other thing and this is more of a horizon horizon topic but Mark you just mentioned it and it's going far beyond the yoga piece and forth, but I Did want to let everyone know that I continue my deep dive Into what I originally was theming as it basically I'm building on the piece about Local and global and what's happening to the nation-state and and all of that And it's what I called initially last year more the theme of global citizenship and so forth Which is definitely still on my radar, but it's expanded in recent Months to really look more broadly at this notion of citizenship this notion of belonging and identity and Borders and you know, we have free flow of pretty much everything in terms of ideas capital technology, etc and Looking at citizenship and even things like passport as a relatively new phenomenon a very new phenomenon in fact and looking at If I look to the future and you may you might have looked at some of this as well I don't know but you know looking to the future I think we're ending entering the best term I can come up with is a new era of citizenship I don't even know that we call it citizenship But when it comes to belonging identity loyalty all of that where we're looking at more local and more global We're looking at multiple layered identities We're looking at certain identities and affiliations and quote-unquote Citizenships that you might have for business reasons versus cultural reasons etc etc and Increasingly, I strongly believe that we will see a lot of change in the coming years or decades around how we identify and how we hold a set of rights and responsibilities to different places and different people and so I Mention that because one is I'd love to host a Rex call on this sometime Two of people have ideas around this. I'm like a giant sponge I am writing more about this. I have written a couple pieces already have a lot more in the queue and and You know, I continue to do my work around the future of work and new economy and all of that But for those of you who have known me for a while I do like getting into ideas that are are nascent and more emergent and The more I'm picking apart this particular theme the more I think it's probably what ends up being that That that additional layer on my portfolio in the coming years So I say this because you know picking up on the local versus global looking at this in terms of it for modern history We don't have a lot of Comparables to lean into and I'm not for the record. I'm not saying that like passports disappear I'm just saying that it's going to become well It's everything from virtual citizenship for sale Residency global impact visas all of that but then obviously you end up in conversations about stateless people and Looking at citizenship also as a bargaining chip brokerage trip You know, there's both the potential for for really great things around mobility of talent and education and so forth and also Very, you know thorny issues around corruption All I'll say Malta is the best example to look at for that at the moment And so on and so forth so sorry I went on a little longer than I thought but I wanted to put that out there because it's Something I'm up to something. I haven't been able to share within this group for the last few months And an open offer to noodle on this more together anytime April you should look at the Institute for the Futures 2017 tenure forecast material Which should be publicly available now? And if not, let me know because actually we did a big big section on citizenship and Identity and I wrote a number of scenarios for that so Oh, fabulous Yeah And if it's not there, let me know and I'll dig up what I can. Thank you. Okay. Very cool Yeah, I figured there I figured there was a lot of a lot of residents there Jerry if I jump in for a second on this, please bill the um phrase that I pick up on from both Jeremy Rifkin and his work their third industrial revolution and Empathic civilization together with the work of David Snowden with this Kenneth and framework and everything is distributed cognition In other words, they were getting to a realm where there's greater and greater capacity and need For people to make up their own mind And have access to act Based on that. In other words, we're we're less Relying on which to me is part of the degradation. In other words, the paying attention to it, etc Is is a degradation of that part that was always looking for somebody else to make the decision Or if they were making the decision as a government or or a parent or whatever that they're made wrong You know so that we can sort of go into a level through the internet and other things to find out What we really believe and what we think is the right thing to do and then act on that And and Jeremy Rifkin in particular thinks that that's a very important advancement To the extent that we're capable of doing that Now, obviously it gets really really messy at the beginning Yeah And since there were at least I feel that we can sense that if there is flexibility and trust that ultimately gets built in Which to me is what's happening with things like blockchain Where there is a potential to construct safe Ways of the word structurally safe ways of what one of the the technology people called shared worlds And so in that in that sense You you get the ability to have distributed cognition In other words the ability to make the decision and not have somebody else You know not give up your power to a political party or to a politician or or to the school district No, I'm going to do it myself Or to the myth makers Right But but in a way that becomes the new myth. In other words, we're all sort of like the bumblebees You know working the community in a way that's that's safe and Appropriate for the the community of bumblebees, but at the end of the day not necessarily being told what to do And so you've got this structure that is that is in essence drawing from the field trusting in the fact that there is a field But not expecting that it's somehow told to you, you know, in other words, you know it You don't you don't have to go find a book that teaches you And to me that you know in in our work with with school systems In other words, we're doing that invert the classroom So that that in essence the child has control over the process and the speed with which they learn algebra or you know Geometry or whatever, but at the end of the day There's a sense of responsibility and the teacher is no longer sort of like the dictator at the front of the room Telling you what's right and wrong and and constant test taking note You're now in charge and you in essence proceed through Mastery you don't want just a pass fail. You want to master that project that that that process So in that sense that the student becomes more distributed cognition So that when they come out of school they not only know To what extent they are educated, but how to stay educated Because they've now taken responsibility for the process Um bill. I love that. It's uh, and I have to go look at what riftkins saying on this because Um, this notion of distributed cognition ring resonates a lot for me. I talk a lot about collaborative sense making Very specific a specific example of this is just a simple aspect of how do you get energy? In other words, the united states is focused on general electric and florida power and light and con ed Having control and controlling the grid, which obviously if anybody is following that is very Uh, not resilient very subject to you know potential damage by outside terrorists and stuff like that Whereas in europe they've spent the last 10 years with the guidance of jeremy riftin Creating a very very very flexible distributed process of energy. They've essentially got an internet of energy In europe, you know based on the fact that they've got 150 000 public buildings that are all Wired to create their own energy and they can share it to anybody They're so far ahead of us. It's it's it's not even funny love that Love that very interesting. Um You also mentioned blockchain and I was thinking earlier, um When we were talking about myths and myth making that uh, I sometimes think of uh, aboriginal song lines as the original blockchain Because basically these these song lines go back, you know tens of thousands of years Um, and they're they're both descriptions of the birth story of the culture and their descriptions of the landscape that They cross and they include property rights along the way Like, you know, so-and-so has the right to graze In this area or whatever else and they include other things. I think we don't we don't even really understand You know also which which rock or tree is which spirit behind and how do you deal with them? But but they're additive. They're basically incremental and they're told this this goes back to this notion of oral tradition um, and the building of sort of long Really long duration history of different kinds, so I I'm interested because the blockchain is both The bonanza and this crazy boondoggle and we're seeing everybody reinventing everything on top of it right now from completely different frames of mind and with very different intentions uh, you know all of all of which are kind of Coalescing Collapsing converging on this blockchain sort of thing and then we are we are friends with Arthur Brock And the Holochain team which has a different approach toward doing it and very different intentions from most of the other efforts And that's interesting. And I think we should probably have a pop-up call With matthew and gene and a couple other people Oh my god, they should have called at the Brock chain. You're so right jamai They should have shouldn't should have skipped Holochain. They should have just called it at the Brock chain So so I think that's all all interesting and it actually leads me to my check-in Which I haven't done yet and I'd like like to sort of take a turn here doing which is One of the one of the larger things in front of me right now is kind of doing a community analysis for this exponential organizations foundation that i'm part of With salim is mile and a and a small crew And we're trying to figure out How do we How do we assess which communities we're interested in connecting with which communities we're interested in building and how Where are they aimed? What are their purposes? What are their rituals? What do they do? I'll actually point everybody community hyphen canvas.org I'm actually not on our on our zoom chat because I got the zoom on my iPad over there But community canvas is a really really interesting resource for Assessing aspects of different communities. It's a they took the business model canvas and they completely rearranged everything But they've split things up on community formation and management and participation in I think a really useful set of questions So going there is actually quite good. So a piece of what i'm trying to think about is An important piece of this thinking on communities is how do we bridge across high function communities? How do we How do we help? various communities Synchronize their activities a little bit where it matters without becoming one big blob of a community without homogenizing without Without destroying the requisite variety that that variety gives us And so I'm puzzling on that and would you know any suggestions any thoughts on that are extremely welcome and on the on the rest of this but trying to do that and then the other big thing on my horizon is pdf keynote I have in in early mid june Where I'll be talking about trust and where I'm basically trying to say that I think trust is the only way forward Even though even though it's easy to prove how untrustworthy humans are and how scary crowds are That that finding our way back to trust is in fact our only path forward and this in an environment where Many groups of people have discovered that the breaking of trust Intentionally in the creating of fog on the battlefield is a really good strategy for winning control and and generating fear and breaking safety and all of those kinds of things so That's that's heavy in my mind right now how to explain that what stories to tell about it in particular What stories to tell to illustrate those kinds of points? So that's kind of where I think you might want to consider Jerry to drill down on that is to Teach out what's the difference between trust and faith? Mm-hmm And if you do trust a system do you have faith in the system and What are the different outcomes? You from those two very similar but not quite identical Perspectives yeah, and and Faith also as a weapon against trust in a weird way like um long ago I had a conversation with a Jordanian driver and kind of got into a little bit And and we were like well we were talking about the bible and the Quran and this and that and he's like well Well, have you read these things? We asked him and he says well. Yes. I've read them. Well. What do you mean exactly? Well, he'd read the Quran And the Quran by definition includes all other works. So you don't need to read anything else Right and and it's an act of faith to believe that just as it's an act of faith to believe in the stories of the bible Or other myths that we that we propagate or the myths of your particular culture and origin story And whether or not there is you know Some aspect of the divine and and how the divine in fact is architected whether it's a duality or a trinity or Or you know all those all those kinds of questions Go back to this but but faith in that In the context I just related was a way of Controlling what he thought and making sure he didn't go read other things outside of the boundaries of his cultural Surroundings It was very interesting. So I like the question a lot. You may any other any other thoughts from anyone else? I've just been listening to the constitutionally speaking podcast Which I'm finding really fun But the episode that I listened to yesterday is about James Madison designing for distrust And it just hadn't really you know never thought through much of this stuff and yeah He kind of did the basis was he doesn't trust anybody. He thinks you know everybody's going to do bad shit And so that's how you get to us And so the the session has a lot You know it's like Jefferson kind of trusts everybody Hamilton kind of trusts no more people Madison does trust anybody. So anyway, I just feel like you're on this historic theme that I hadn't really thought through That's really interesting because you know systems of checks and balances and All of those things designed into our particular framework for democracy Are supposed to do that right if one of the if one of the pieces is off The other pieces can sort of control for it in different ways So you assume malfeasance by any actor. How do you I mean one of the big questions here is? How do you design social systems social contracts? Institutional arrangements that in fact will guide toward good outcomes despite bad actors But then the question for me is do you design around the bad actors first or last? Right. Do you do you try to Design the system so that bad actors can't do anything which means You limit the actions of everybody or do you create very open systems? Where you know there's going to be bad actors and then figure out how to how to deal with the bad actors later Don't you think that that's the point of blockchain? You start with the assumption Do you want to define what a good outcome is and then lock it in? In other words, there's nothing but a good outcome that can come from it You know, in other words, that's the concept behind it so That's what people people want that kind of trust even at the big big big institutional level They can't trust each other and so they want to structure something so that whatever it is that's supposed to be happening Won't happen except in the way that they want it to happen And the one of the things that I've posted is uh, this guy Lehman Baird Who's got the process called the hash graph Which is supposedly even more fluid and more control Liable than blockchains. In other words, there's there's less work to be done to keep the trust there But he actually calls his program or process shared worlds Because you literally create your entire world with your own criteria your own values And don't deal with don't work with don't allow anybody into your network if they don't agree with your roles Which answers your question, you know These are our rules if you want to play with me you've got to Follow these rules and and things cannot happen other than in accordance with these values Lehman Baird L E E M O N Baird B A I R D hash graph It's interesting stuff. I haven't gone deep enough into it The best are youtube interviews to listen to him talk about it because there there's a lot of It's a very technical process But it's been vetted for years for like over 30 years the the the concept behind it Yeah, so I have um hash graph in my brain under a thought called alternatives to blockchains Right, which includes holo chain and some of the meta currency stuff that arthur's been working on and also interestingly includes chia Swirls and Lehman Lehman Baird is swirls. That's also that's also him. Okay, right Cool, you're right Lehman Baird. So it's connected to the hash graph. I need to in fact, I had an under hash graph cool Um So there's a whole world of things to go exploring in there Cool, um, any other thoughts on those things? Uh, any any wrapping thoughts any comments on the kinds of themes that came up while we were talking I haven't done a check-in yet cherry. Oh, sure. May I apologize? Would you like to check in? Well, it's actually this is a a prevent providential moment because I'm working right now on a Stuff for the future of trust at institute for the future And I'm writing a set of forecasts But the one that I'm that I'm wrestling with right now is essentially asking the question When do we want our systems whether we're talking institutional or digital? When we want our systems to lie to us You know and so I you know start with an example In an elderly patient in a memory care facility asks when her husband who had died seven years earlier will visit The woman's health care assistants whether a human nurse or a digital interactive device Will need to answer her should she be told the truth and suffer the loss again Even though she'll ask the same question tomorrow or even a few hours later Or should she be told a lie that he'll be back later on today? Knowing that she'll forget this answer soon So that's just something where the humane response seems to be to lie or that's the correct approach Yes, you know at least that's the way it seems for a lot of people And so that's what's got me thinking about when do we want our systems to lie to us You know when is it better to be? deceived You know, I think there's an example but a lot of a lot of us probably have experienced how If you ever put your alarm clock five minutes forward Or 10 minutes forward, right? Get yourself up early in the morning You know, you're basically you're actually telling this machine to lie to you And you're doing it knowingly and it turns out there's some really interesting research on what's known as open label placebos Where the research shows that people who are given Um placebos but are told these are placebos. Here's 15 minutes on how the placebo effect works Have you know roughly similar outcomes to people who are given quote-unquote deceptive placebos, right placebos work even when you know It's a placebo exactly. Yeah, and so it's actually it's bizarre. It's knowing that you're being lied to you know, and so We know that If even if we know that the system is lying to us that doesn't necessarily obviate its utility So just it's exploring this question of In a in a world where trust is important When is lying? From our you know, when do we want our systems to lie to us which then sort of bleeds into this the question of you know When we have intelligent or functionally intelligent systems. When do we want them to say no? Or to uh to misrepresent themselves and it's easy. It's easy to imagine A financial planning app that basically says, you know, you you've run out of money When in fact, there's still something in the in the bank, but it would convince you to maybe not spend money on something You're about to it's easy to imagine an exercise app That tells you you've run three miles when you've only run two But you're trying to get to some goal or whatever it is, right? But that there might be sort of mixed incentives in in the coaching aspects of apps Well, it's different sometimes done for your safety I mean you know that car that has that actually still has another half gallon Of gasoline in the tank, but it tells you that you're at you're close to empty So basically to give you that little margin of error It's you know, it's interesting also to me it just really does get back to trust again because There's assumption that it's lying to me for my own good Once you open up the door to lying. How do I know who's good at you're doing it for? Right, right, you know, so um You know, so actually an example of that is what I came up with is Do we want our self-driving so that there's a question do we want our self-driving cars to break the law to speed? Pretty much everyone speeds Certainly in california, you know, and that's and I mean that even driving a couple miles an hour over the speed limit That's technically breaking the law And so we're accustomed to that So do we want our self-driving vehicles? We want to program them to break the law Or do we want them to show us a speed of 70 in a 65 zone But still actually only drive 65 So that you know, we have that that visceral response of yes, we're we're driving as fast as I would be driving as a human Even though the machine itself is remaining technically legal So you know these kinds of these kinds of issues are And who's that good for is that that's you know, arguably not good for you as the driver slash passenger Because you're actually it's going to be slower to get where you want to go um it's better for the the community To have everyone driving at a at a slower speed Well, I can imagine arteries in the future. Maybe they're like freeways. Maybe there there's streets where only robo cars operate Oh, yeah Where the speed limit is flexible and just keeps creeping upward as performance and safety and And all those things, you know get better. But as long as you have a mixed environment, right, you can't do that You can't do that You know, and we've talked about the you know, the other some of the other side effects of a mixed environment with self-driving vehicles like bullying humans bullying self-driving cars Because if you know that the machine is going to get out of your way, I can You know change lanes without having to signal because hey, it's not like you're going to crash into me Then the robot can move can uh react much more quickly than a human can and they don't want the bad publicity so, uh You know, and I don't know if that quite fits what I'm talking about But still this this question of it's just keeps coming back to When is deception from a system level deception? useful good well, I wonder if some of the issues are coming out of The fact we kind of abstract truth and falsity to be digital And unitary things things are either true or false Whereas that's also that you know, even in the digital realm when you look at the electronics You decide on, you know various voltage levels and the transistors and this will be, you know, one this will be zero So even that is kind of an abstraction And I was recently in in europe and Amsterdam among other places and it's a really interesting experience being on the street there Because there's very few traffic lights and stop go signs and so on and there's pedestrians lots of bicycles And everyone is driving With very kind of narrow margins of safety And this is all happening in a very tacit sort of way And then you contrast that with you know, I come back here and then there's a red light Everyone stops there's a green light. Everyone goes everyone stops even though there's no traffic going And so you're you're trying to kind of have very tightly bound abstractions that guide behavior, but those are actually abstractions and I think they're only necessary because Maybe there's not enough trust in the capacity of human beings to know. What is the good so to speak? So that reminds me of a something that I know happens to a certain extent in in in the netherlands And that is the absence of obvious demarcation between street and sidewalk And the idea is that drivers become more careful if they don't have that explicitly laid out for them And then it makes me wonder is there a fear component to being trustworthy So yes, yes, yes, yes, and yes In 2006 I interviewed Hans Mondermann in in holland and I posted a bunch of videos on youtube That are him touring me and another journalist Walking and driving through the town of rachden, which he had helped re-engineer in this way His notions of traffic calming also not called shared spaces have trickled all over the place So it's really interesting that holland is where you were telling the story from because that's that's where he started And one of the things he did was make it ambiguous where the street ends and where the sidewalk starts because when you have a Six inch rise to a concrete platform where there's supposed to be pedestrians That hard that hard border actually makes it easier for me to just cruise along way too fast on the street Right. So part of what he was doing was trying to create a little sense of he needs clarity of reading what's there So if there's a playground, he wants you to see the playground as you're driving by But he needs a little bit of ambiguity so that it looks more dangerous for you the driver as you're driving through So the road looks narrower than it may actually be and so that it looks like there are people closer to you So you might hit them without actually endangering them So the so one of the and I and this is a one of the examples I use all the time of design from trust Right because what you're doing is you're trusting that the humans are going to make eye contact as they approach and and you know One of the traffic circles he walked us through and he walks when he demos these things He walks backward through the traffic circle just to show that like people are paying attention They're not going to kill me and when he died in 2008. It was not of a car accident. It was a prostate cancer unfortunately um But he's making the point that we're trusting that humans will actually make Contact with each other and make their way through these obstacles that are streets and intersections and whatnot And one of my big conundrums with robo cars is it's impossible to make eye contact with a robo car and and robo the robo car future I now see coming for sure really Mucks around with this entire future of us collaborating with each other as we make our way through the world It completely screws with that So that leads to alternate, you know designs for the city, etc. etc But for me traffic lights and then And then a radar gun and then a camera and then an automatic ticket from the city when you speed through the intersection Is designed from mistrust with the addition of affordances the kind of stuff that Monderman was busy removing from from streets and intersections through careful redesign for trust Go ahead, Jimmy. We need to develop white sclera For robo cars. That is the yes the whites of the eye. That's something that is functionally unique to humans in primates That's an evolutionary adaptation that helped to encourage Sociality So by the way, I can see where you're looking you can see where I'm looking from a distance And other animals don't have the whites of their eyes Not not to the extent that humans do right if you look at if you look at a chimpanzee if we look at a gorilla It's much darker Which is actually if you ever saw the most recent iterations of the planet or the apes movies That was one of the things that distinguished The the Caesar character is that that you know, the whatever the treatment was that made him smart Also gave him white sclera Interesting. That's really interesting. And so but what you're saying Basically that ability to see at a distance where someone is looking we need to You know give that to vehicles so we can see where we can basically Confirm that I've made eye contact with the car. It seeds me Exactly and the the story I just told about monderman and traffic calming is one of the birth narratives of rex by the way Just to go to go back in our conversation here. I used to tell this all the time And then also I was thinking well if we can't make eye contact with cars I had a much less effective solution for how do we deal with more conservative driving robo cars? And my answer was paint the outline of a little old lady in the windows So that it looks like someone who can barely look over the wheel is is like behind the wheel And everybody who's all the humans interacting with that vehicle will slow down because of like cheese, you know It's it's naturally going to drive slowly, but I like the sclera Like headlights with sclera that actually make eye contact with you and maybe wink at you Yeah, or some kind of indication where you get the The eye contact right it's basically it's basically I've seen you and this is how I'm going to act given where we are in relation to each other That's what you need to know, right? I've got an example from new jersey, right? Yeah, new jersey has its own traffic rules, right? Judg handles Well the circles the new jersey circles and the rule for a circle is if you make eye contact you have to yield So you try not to look That's so interesting. It's the opposite of what it should be. That's incredible It's jersey, right? Yeah, it's joysie joysie That one and then the jersey jump is the first left gets right away Somebody said to me in california the other day. I was like, what the fuck? Um My apologies for for forgetting that you had not checked in germany. That's that was bad I should have should have asked around but that was really super super fun because you tied a bunch of stuff together, too I do my best Anybody else with thoughts for germany on his question to trust and lies Trust in lies. When do we when is it good to offer our systems to lie to us? When do we want that to happen? Truth lives and video streaming Yeah, exactly All right, well, um, well, thank you. It makes me throw that out there for people Yeah, thank you and anybody who has a thoughts put it on the rex list or send it to germany directly or whatnot um I just want to say thank you this this you know this check in process really works. It's uh It's interesting and we we wind up helping each other and and learning about what we're up to and it feels very rexy So I I want to thank everybody for participating any any last thoughts last words Then let's be careful out there and uh Thank you very much Bye