 Aloha, welcome to Think Tech Hawaii. And this show is Politics for the People. Our topic is can January 6th Select Committee do it in time? So I welcome shows, this show's discussion panel and these panelists are Jay Fiedel, Winston Welch, Tim Apichella. So welcome to all of you to our discussion show. Let's get on with it. And our first question is really the title. So what is it that we can expect the committee or need to expect the committee to do in time? What do they need to do, Jay? Can you explain a bit? That's a really good question. What are the things they should do in order to meet the test of the 2022 election? I mean, it all starts with the fundamental issue of bringing the facts out in such a way, maybe getting some indictments going on so that in those things affect the 2022 election. And how do you do that? Congress in itself does not have the power to indict or prosecute. They can only recommend. So the positive side of it is that they can, what was your term, Tim? Drib-drab, they can drip-drab the information out to the public, which they are doing. That's why I watch Rachel Maddow so intently because that's where the drip-drab happens for me but the others too. And that helps to sort of get the public at a higher level of awareness. And then of course, there's the report. And that's the biggest question, I suppose. Will the report be out in time? So just for this discussion, let me say that November is gonna be election day, but some states, some jurisdictions have absentee voting that that's a month earlier, maybe more even. And so you have to factor that in to this timeframe you're asking about, Stephanie. So if say September, sometime in September would be the last time you could reach some voters. So, and then of course you wanna get it earlier than that so it settles in. Public opinion doesn't necessarily turn on a dime. Sometimes it does, but for planning purposes you have to sort of get it into the nether earlier so that it settles in so people talk about it and it forms public opinion. So I would say sometime in the summer. And the question is, there's two questions I didn't come out of that and I'm happy to get off my pedestal here. Number one is, can the committee get to a level where it can do an appropriate report to reveal what is certainly forming up as a huge and treasonous conspiracy, especially around Trump? Can it do that in time? Okay. And then of course you have to look at the negative factors and the criticism that will always come from the GOP and all of these foibles that go on about people who are willing or not willing to testify. There'll be more of that. And so there are negative things that slow the committee down or that deflect and distract us from what it is finding, what it is drip-dragging and what would be in this soccer report. So that the question then becomes, will it be able to do these things by whatever deadline that is? So those are really two questions. Actually four questions. What are the positives? What are the negatives? Can they do it? Will they do it? And will they do it in time? All right. Very, very helpful. Very focusing for our discussion. May I please go back to the drip-drap? I have read or heard on TV that there are some questions about why are they, is this a drip-drap? Giving out some of these messages without identifying the speakers. And is that okay to do? And is that anything that is justifiable? What do you think, Jay? Is that drip-drap number one? And number two, what do you think its purpose is or doesn't have a purpose? Well, I think A, yes it is drip-drap for sure. They're tipping us off about things. And I think if you look at this as a way to inform the public, raise awareness in the public, get the public interested. Interested, because the greatest risk of all is that the public tunes out, doesn't care. And there's a lot of people already don't care. They've heard it all before. They have fatigue about this committee. They have fatigue about the insurrection. They've been distracted by the things that GOP is doing, which is what the GOP wants. So as to whether it's okay to drip-drap this out without identifying exactly who it is. Yeah, sure. This is a reality show, man. This is the battle of the reality shows. And so it's more interesting if you don't reveal these things. This is coming on next week's episode. So stay tuned. That's what it's about. Good. All right, so there's a little excitement in the game here. And maybe it's a little bit of against maybe gaslighting. So Wednesday- No, it's not telling lies. It's not deceiving anybody. It is really giving you a preview of what's to come. If they did deceive people or tell lies, they would lose their credibility and the whole project would be off the side. So I don't think they're gonna do that. I don't think they are doing that. Yeah. Well, I mean, how important so far? Okay, Winston, what's important so far about the reports that they've been giving, all these reveals, these little reveals? How important is this? And especially for the midterm election, if you want a goal for discussing why it's important or not, is it important? Well, for those of us that may have been horrified, which should be every American by the events of January 6th, I don't think that these will make much of a difference, honestly. It's important to have these historical facts laid out, but they're just coming out now, as I said, like 11 months after this thing has taken place. This is really, really late. They should have started and gotten this out much, much earlier, but okay, it is what it is. If this stuff comes out by January, February, March, that's fine, but who is it that the report is actually trying to reach? Is it trying to reach John Q. Public in general? Is it trying to reach the Fox News Watcher? Is it trying to reach the theoretical soccer mom who is swayed in the Virginia gubernatorial election? Maybe it's the latter. I don't know. It should be everyone. Every American has a vested interest in understanding the events of January 6th, who caused them, what led up to them, how we prevented again, who literally tried to overthrow our country and take over our institutions, and there's been a lot of damage done. So as far as who's important to and what the effect is, I would say it's for all of us, whether that actually takes effect and percolates down to the people it needs to get is another question. But I think if we look back just a couple of years ago, not even a couple of years ago, a year ago, think of the pure chaos, the fear, the nausea that the country was undergoing, that when you have how many defense secret, former defense secretary sign that paper saying the United States military doesn't get involved in these things, this is insane in the world's largest and most important democracy. There was a couple of things though that I wanted to point out is that there was a, there was the Summa Don Democracy or something along the Joe Biden held virtually, and it's just sort of trying to bolster democracies. Now he left out a few and then included a few others, but basically it was a broad scale scope, but it says, you know, America's Vox had an article recently. It was last week on the ninth by Zach Beauchamp, and he says that American democracy is tottering. It's not clear that, it's not clear Americans care. I don't think that's true. I think they're just fatigued and exhausted. So when it comes right down to it, if they're given a choice between the steady Eddie, maybe he's a little bit boring, maybe he's a little bit calm, but you know what? They're gonna go with that rather than the circus clown who really had some nefarious things at heart along with the whole cabal of people. It needs to come out. It's coming out. It's coming out in dribs and drabs. It's coming out wholesale. I love the Phil Waldron, the back of the election conspiracy theory with his PowerPoint that he circulated to Mark Meadows that then he turned over. So it's gonna be these little things that come out. Well, what do you think it was Liz Cheney's intent? She was the first, of course, as the vice of the committee, but she was the first to read these messages out anonymously as with anonymity. So what do you think she was trying to do with that? Do you think that she was being intentional or is it just a matter of getting information? What do you think Liz Cheney was thinking? It was gonna... She's thinking that I'm an elected representative of the United States Congress and it is my responsibility to inform the American public. And if it's not happening via the normal channels or whatever it is, she needs to get that out. So whatever Liz Cheney does to get out the information, she needs to do that because she also has a special place among these 10 Republicans that have stood up and said, this is such an anatomy to our society. We must challenge this. It doesn't matter what political party you ostensibly belong to because her party, of course, has been completely hijacked and stolen from her and she is trying to regain that party. And so all power to her, to for America to have a principled conservative party that is not held hostage by one individual or extreme ideologues who are intent on destroying our fundamental understanding of our society and the nature of our democracy. So I applaud Liz Cheney for however she gets out information. Okay, okay, so that's interesting. Okay, Tim, did you get any sense that there was any blame or that committee report was pointing to anybody as being mastermind or anything in that report? Did you get a sense that there was an idea there that there might be an indictment coming? What do you think? Oh, absolutely, absolutely. First off, getting to, I wanna touch on a couple of points from Winston and Jay and that is Winston is absolutely correct that the American public is fatigued, they're exhausted on this stuff, but that's why they're playing it out in dribs and drabs. To Jay's point, this is a reality show they've turned this into and guess who what? Liz Cheney is playing the Benghazi playbook like a Strativarius instrument and this is now a drama that's gonna tantalize and titillate the American public and they will start tuning in because, oh, did you hear what they said yesterday about Mark Metals? Well, wait, do you see what they're gonna say about Steve Bannon the next, you know, next week? I'm surprised we don't see commercials saying tune in next week, you know, like a soap opera. And it's the biggest mistake the GOP ever made was to deny the commission in the Senate because the commission would have had to kept the wraps on it and they can't release anything as a commission but as a House Select Committee. Well, we have, as Jay said, you know, we have the reality TV show here and it's gonna be in full swing until probably, I don't know, February. I think the report comes out in May and the reason I think it comes out in May is because what did all the, traditionally all the network TV stations do in June? They start playing reruns because they know people are in summer vacations, they're out, the kids are out of school. No one's really watching TV like they do during the winter months. So why would you wanna release the report during the summer? You wanna get it out in late spring, probably even maybe as early as April. But they want this in everyone's minds. And then, like I said, and Jay said, they're gonna play this like a reality show. And it's great, it's great to watch. I mean, I was glued to the TV watching what Mark's medal, what the text to Mark's medal was doing. I was captivated. And before that, I was burned out. I said, I can't take this anymore. I can't listen to it anymore. Well, I'm back in the chair again. So, Tim, what does that mean for that report that aren't you're saying now, they've gotta get that report out in late spring. Well, they're not gonna wait for, you know, they're not gonna follow the judicial trail and wait for Steve Bannon to be forced to take the fifth amendment in front of the select committee. They're not gonna wait for Mark Meadows to take the fifth. They're gonna, they already have the information. They already have the reports. It's not important where they show up or not. All that was is the cherry on top of the Sunday to bring in those folks and have them confirm that what they already know. So then let's release the documents. That would be part of the report. They could already be drafting that report is what you're saying. Well, count on it. Count on it so much, right? Count on the first draft and, you know, Liz Cheney, like I said, she's right in the middle of all this stuff. And she knows how to fight like a Republican. She's teaching the Democrats a few things like the Lincoln project taught Democrats on how to do this and do this the right way. And she's right in the middle of it. So, hey, tune in next week. Well, Tim, do you think we've learned anything? Is she teaching them how to not do a Mueller report? I mean, that's perfectly stated. Absolutely perfectly stated. She's teaching them not how to do a Mueller report. Absolutely, perfect. And that would be why? To kind of go over that because that, you know. Because she wants them to look bad and she wants, and to follow Winston's point, this is a serious crime that's taken place and there's no room for it to be diminished and ignored by the American public. She is, not only is she playing the Benghazi playbook, but she's also playing the patriotic playbook. And that is, this crime shall not go unanswered and those who are involved shall not go unpunished. And, you know, my hat's off to her. And again, I don't agree with one bit of her politics, but I surely admire her as a citizen and a patriot of this country and her and Adam Kingsend and her. My hats are off to both of them. To stand in the wind and to take on the slings and arrows of their party and be, you know, criticized and name called and ostracized. But it's not about politics for them. It really is about patriotism. And I admire that. I really do. It's been a long time. It's refreshing to see it. Yeah, right, good. So Jay, thank you, Tim, that's very interesting. Jay, so is Mark Meadows gonna take the full fall of this? Of this, if he gets indicted, is he gonna have to go down for this? Well, you have to separate it out. You have to separate it out. And one is the indictment for criminal contempt of Congress. Okay. And that will get referred to Merrick Garland who may or may not decide to prosecute him, you know. Fact is Meadows is closer to the president and to privilege than Bannon. And so Merrick Garland may, you know, take a conservative view and decide not, you know, that there is a privilege and he shouldn't have to be, I think that would be wrong because the privilege, if it is, is only about some questions. It isn't about blowing off Congress and not appearing, okay? So it should be an easy decision. I worry, however, that Merrick Garland is a wimp, that he is going to make us wait for a long time and that it's not certain at all that he's going to find for an indictment. I really worry about that. And that would really take the wind out of the sails of all of this if Congress were made impotent that way. So I hope he agrees that if the guy wants to raise the question of privilege, it's question by question. It's not refusing to appear. So anyway, that's one criminal indictment. The other is the criminal indictment of espionage, I'm not espionage, but treason and conspiracy, which are pretty serious. And I think it's good, you know, to talk about this whole drip-drap thing is that, you know, people are for the first time in a year, they're beginning to realize the magnitude of what happened legally. This isn't just a riot. It isn't just a bunch of ruffians out for a good time. This is treason. This is trying to overthrow the United States government. Nothing, nothing could be more serious, nothing. And so that's coming out now. And I think that's one of the reasons, Tim, that people are waking up on this, that their level of awareness and interest is increasing because that word is slipping in and the possibility of serious criminal process may take place. And the question, you know, is in this second indictment whether, you know, they can get meadows after he pleads the fifth. Remember, if you plead the fifth, you can be granted immunity, right? And then you have to answer the question. And then we go back for another criminal contempt if you don't answer the question. I mean, it's just complicated and very time consuming. And you know that he would have a plan on that because right now he is quite concerned about the second one being caught up in treason. And I believe that probably he could be, I said this on the show yesterday, probably he could be indicted and prosecuted and even convicted of treason without testifying about it because there's so much in the way of documents. And finally on the question of privilege, I wanna say something I mentioned yesterday and that is waiver. If you get in there and you write a book, make it appearance, make several appearances, talk about your conversations with the president, you know, release all this texting and email and what he's done, you know, you're waiving privilege and arguably he has the authority, the power legally to do that. So, you know, if there is ultimately a question of whether he can hide behind privilege that undermines his position in that regard. And finally, before I get off my stump here, I wanna tell you that what's happening in the select committee in Congress is only part of the reality show. Other things are happening and some of them are moving to fruition, some of them will have to wait. Leticia James supposed to be able to depose Trump on January 7th, that's two weeks away. If she can get him into the chair on a deposition, that is going to heighten this reality show to white hot, okay, and even if it isn't January 7th, if she gets an order requiring him to appear, if she gets him to sit down, oh boy, I'll tell you, that's one thing. The other thing is the district attorney in Georgia who is going after Trump for, you know, asking for 711,780 votes, remember that one rapist, Rapsonsburger, if that gets into court, gets public, that's another thing that's going to heighten public awareness. And finally, and this only came up this week, there's this guy who is the attorney general of the District of Columbia, who filed a lawsuit on behalf of the District of Columbia against not only, you know, the people in the insurrection that day, but against the conspirators, the Jandos and the Jandos and the dope corporations that funded it. He's going after all of them and he's got a really good case and that is going to raise public awareness. That's another side show that has the same effect of, you know, this reality show. What's missing, and I'll leave this at, what's missing, what's AWOL here is Merrick Garland. He should have started an investigation. He should have ceded a grand jury back in January as soon as he was appointed. And he hasn't done anything that we know of. People say, oh, maybe he's doing something. He just hasn't said, hey, if he was doing something, it would have leaked. Something would have gotten out. I can't believe that he's doing it and it didn't get out. I believe he's not doing anything. He's AWOL and he's a failure. I'll start. Jay, you answered one of the questions I was going to ask but I'm not sure I understand it completely. I heard John Dean say that Meadows had already blown his Fifth Amendment, right? Or he can't take it because he's already given the information and testimony through the documents so that he already can't use the Fifth Amendment. I'm not as our resident. That may be so. I'm not familiar with how you waived the Fifth Amendment but that may make a lot of sense. And if he takes the Fifth Amendment, that will be litigated. He'll insist that he has it right. But certainly executive privilege, certainly executive privilege on that point. Yeah. As in none or some, Tim. He's waived it. He's waived it. He's waived it. Okay. All right. I mean, John Dean's usually pretty good on this stuff but there was a very quick comment that just raised the question, which you started to answer, Jay. So thanks for that. Well, Winston, I'm hearing from Jay. Maybe some things are developing here that this committee is yielding some light, sunlight. What do you think, Winston? And that it may impact the people. I mean, we've been in such a cloud. So what do you think? Do you agree with him on that? Let us pray that it's true. We have undergone such a collective trauma. And maybe Tim and Jay's comments are correct that America can't take it full scale. So it does need to be released like stories of old where they print one chapter a week. So you could read the whole thing. Honestly, given how what we used to, what we were at a year ago, two years ago, three years ago, four years ago, it wasn't day by day. It was not even hour by hour. It was tweet by tweet. We have become really damaged as far as our ability to focus and concentrate and come up with a coherent logical narrative that people can follow, that they have the patience or the bandwidth to follow given everything else that they're going through. However, it is required of those of us who love our nation to do so. I would like to refer our gentle viewers to a really good article yesterday. I thought in slate, it will not overwhelm you. It was maybe five pages long called the Chilling Lesson of Mark Meadows Text Messages. And it really details in there how the Donald didn't want the rioters to go home. And even, it was interesting because you even had Sean Hannity and Laura Ingram of Fox calling and saying, take off your attack dogs, please say something. Our country's on fire, even though we have poured gasoline on it. We need you to pull back now. Even if, I think Ivanka was even in there, Iban, whatever it is. Yes, yes, that was a great article. Thank you. So we need to really be aware that this is the person. These are the people behind this who fostered this, who encouraged this. It might be seeming as one man, but it's not. It's a group of people who think they just know better how to run this nation than this nation. And they're a very dangerous group. They've been very active in state legislatures across the nation as we know to try and subvert voting rights and all of that. We can come up with common sense solutions as a nation together. We cannot run the nation when it's one group trying to destroy and subvert our basic democratic processes. So more power to Liz Cheney, Adam Kitzinger. They are true American heroes standing up for the values that all of us should believe and that all of us, when you pledged allegiance to the flag in the olden days, now we don't do that anymore, we've pledged to the republic for which it stands. This is part of our duty as citizens to inform ourselves. So for those of you who can't, or you're worried about flipping to your next TikTok or Instagram, take a few minutes, sit down with these articles, go on Google News, ask for a news digest if you can't do it or ask someone who you trust and believe who understands what's going on for a synopsis and why it's important for you to pay attention. In any event, this show is part of it, you guys are part of it. We will get to the bottom of the truth, whether it makes a difference or not, I would really, really hope so. And if the driven drab is the way to go or the splashy or however it needs to get out. Yeah, good. So I think the big question is, of course, following this discussion is, is the committee gonna recommend an indictment for the past president, Tim? I think the evidence will certainly point that way. Jay mentioned what's going on in Georgia and Jay mentioned what's going on in the Southern District of Manhattan. I think that gets them closer to any kind of criminal prosecution than this committee report will give. What will really come out of this is election tampering. And that per se is not treason. Treason has a very narrow definition. It usually involves an outside enemy outside the borders of the United States when you aid in a bet the enemy is treason. This is serious. It's trying to rig an election. And as the commander in chief and the president of the United States, that certainly is a horrible charge to be levied against a president of the United States. However, I think he gets out of some of the criminal charges that could be levied, but he certainly will be damaged. I think he should be prohibited from entering his name into the 2024 election under the 14th Amendment, paragraph three. I think that's a shoe in. And Congress and the select committee could address that exact question. And whoever the candidate, yes. And whoever the candidate is that has standing in the election, all they do is pick up the report and take that report into the court and says, I don't want this candidate running for president of the United States in 2024. And I think that happens by somebody, somewhere, somehow. So a candidate could do that? Yes, a candidate that has standing. But it'll have to go to court because Trump will make it. Yes, it will have to go to court, but what better brief of evidence than the select committee's report? Exactly, yeah. It's all right there. The only thing it doesn't have is a bow on it. Yeah, right, we could put the bow on it. Well, let's do one lightning round here to finish up as we're getting close to end time. So, Jay, can you give us a brief comment on that issue that is there? Yeah, you asked him a minute ago whether he thought that would be an indictment for insurrection, treason, whatever it is, the larger conspiracy. And I think that the committee has or will have enough evidence to justify that recommendation. But remember, it's got to go to Merrick Garland who may or may not do anything with it. That's a great concern to me. The other concern is that it's gonna wind up in the Supreme Court and the Supreme Court is no longer reliable as a place of justice, sorry. And a matter of fact, in the next show at noon, we're covering the reliability of the Supreme Court because that's the backstop to all of this, what they do when it gets there and you know Trump is gonna take it there. Okay, so Winston, how does that affect you? You're thinking about the situation. Boy, you know, as much as I might share in Jay's belief about that, I want to think that the courts will step up as they did during the election. Certainly we've seen a politicization there and their approval ratings going down with the public. But if, as John Roberts said, if people stop believing in us, then we are a nation of rule of law. That is the fundamental thing. I'm not expecting any indictments out of this or if they are, they will be minor low level. Merrick Garland isn't going to do anything. The best we can hope for is a complete repudiation of what has happened here, a full accounting and the hearts and minds are changed and says this was a very detrimental wrong four years we suffered and culminating in this last month with a crescendo on the 6th of January. Right, good comment, thank you. And Tim, how about a final comment here for the program? Final comment is, I recall very distinctly when I was about 14, 15 years old and I told my friends, no, I can't play basketball. I've got to run home and watch the Watergate hearings. And I did that for months, a hot summer much. I watched Sam Rayburn and I watched them all, Sam Urban, I watched them all for months on end and I was fascinated. I can't wait to be that little kid again in a grown, a little older body and watch the drip and drab as the select committee comes up with the report and the reports that will come out of it. I think this is a serious horrible serious crime that's been committed against our constitution and our rule of law and our democracy. And I want to see this follow out and if it's like a Benghazi report and it's dribs and drabs, so be it. But I want to see justice, I want to see justice identified and I want to see justice serve. Yes, Stephanie, I want to add one thought to Tim's comment. The friend of mine spends a good part of the year in Singapore, he came back this morning. And so I talked to him and I said, are you following what's going on in Congress? And he said, are you kidding me, Jay? We watch it as much as you do. We see MSNBC and CNN and all that, every single day we watch it all day long. And in fact, the whole world does. So what we have is a reality show that the entire world is watching. This is all playing out now. This is the trial right now. Well, this is so important to hear from you and especially the international context. So thank you so much for all of the discussion and insight you bring to it. This is Think Tech Kauai and this show is Politics for the People. It's weekly and we'll see you next week. Thank you so much. Mahalo for your viewership and aloha.