 One minute to air We are now streaming on the live stream. I will ask planning and elected officials to please turn on your micro your cameras if you can everybody Good to see you and Looking forward to today's meeting. We'll get started right at four o'clock or when when we hear the sign from our tech folks Stand by Booping is rolling Your life good afternoon, I want to call this meeting a Historic joint meeting between the Durham City Council and our planning Commission to order at four o'clock on September the 14th 2021 and I want to welcome all my colleagues and all of our Friends from the planning Commission. It's really good to be together with you all and Just very much looking forward to today's today's discussion Before I make some introductory remarks and talk a little bit about our schedule today I wondered if it would be beneficial to call the roll Do you all do that? Mr. Busby before your meetings All right so the way So I think we'll go ahead and do that. Let's see if The city clerk is here Here I spoke with the city clerk and I agreed to call the roll for booths Both bodies if that's okay. Thank you, Miss Smith. Okay. I'll go ahead now So mayor shul. Yeah Mayor pretend Johnson here Councilmember Cabrera here Councilmember Reese I'm here and councilmember Freeman Present Councilmember Middleton and here Councilmember Freelon. I think he may join by phone later. I may not join at all. So I'll just skip him Okay, so I'm gonna move on to planning Commission Chair both be here Vice chair and Mandolia here Commissioner Baker here Commissioner Cameron here Commissioner cut right here Commissioner Durkin Commissioner Herod. Oh, I see Commissioner Durkin joining right now. So I'm gonna mark her present Commissioner Herod I see Commissioner Herod on the call, but I don't Hear him answering Come back Commissioner love Okay. Oh, I hear you. Thank you Commissioner Herod. Commissioner love Yeah Commissioner MacIver here Commissioner Morgan Afternoon, I'm here. Okay. Commissioner Cease. I don't think he was able to join it four o'clock commissioner Williams here and The other commissioner Williams or any Williams here After a member we have two Williams now. So welcome today That's everyone. Thank you Grace Welcome to you, too. So that's everyone that I can um that I can account for at the moment Miss Smith City Council colleagues council member Freelon is asked for an excuse after this kind of a margin to that effect I'm moved second moved by council member Freeman second of my mayor pro tem Johnson Miss Smith, can you call a roll, please? Sure. Give me one second. Sure Mayor Scholl Mayor for Tim Johnson, aye councilmember Caballero, aye Councilmember Reese, aye councilmember Freeman Aye And councilmember Middleton. I will die Thank you. I'll pass this along to the city clerk. Thank you very much miss Smith And thank you for doing that Friends um Our agenda is pretty simple. I'll make some very brief remarks. I'll pass the gavel to Chair Busby for some remarks And then we will hear from our staff about the southeast Durham focus area plan and then We'll have some discussion on that and I'll chair during that part of the discussion and then We thought we would move to a discussion of some of the related Larger issues the upcoming brag down ragtown small area plan the comprehensive plan and and chair Busby will be Presenting during that part of the meeting and that's our agenda. So we're looking forward to it And we're really looking forward to hearing from you all as well as our staff But really looking forward to hearing from our planning commissioners and members of the council I'll Just say briefly that I Have really appreciated Our staff for the work on this small area plan that they have begun and it's really important and And I'm I'm really appreciative that they Speeded things up to be able to do this work before the completion of the comprehensive plan They they're wrapping it into the comprehensive plan, but at the request of a lot of people I have decided to do this early and I'm looking forward to their presentation So more than that I really want to appreciate our planning commissioner. You all have a lot. You have our job and I Saw your agenda tonight. I'm not envious We all have always have so many difficult cases on your docket and I'm always so appreciative Sometimes I'll watch your meetings other times I read your comments, but I'm always so appreciative of the work that you do It's so important for our community one of the things we've seen in For the foot really for the first time since I've been on the council and the last Excuse me year or two This year I'd say as we have dealt with these cases in this region We've had a real disconnect between the positions taken by and large By the planning commission and those taken by the council on similar cases or the same cases We know that a lot of times they're they're changes that the developers make between when they go to you when they come to us And honestly that can often be very problematic We often say that we wish our planning commission would able to see these things with with the full information from the developers and I will say that House member Reese has recently been can I call the word lecturing some of our developers about this to bring Everything that they've got to the planning commission before it gets to us but because of this the Mr. Busby came to me Mr. Busby came to me recently and we started talking about this a little we had a lunch And over lunch we talked about this the fact that We think that this this it's it's we think that this map and this plan presents an opportunity for us It's trying to come together Around some common goals for this area and that can help me a good guide for us So I'm appreciative of the staff I'm really glad to be here with you all the day and mainly I just want to hear what everybody has to say today's not a Day when all decisions are going to be made, but it is a day where we really want to hear from every so Commissioner Busby Thank You mayor sure yet mayor sure and and city council members I really appreciate your time and this opportunity for us to come together. I echo Mayor shill's comments in terms of the the opportunity that the The focus area plan presents and the opportunity for us together to to discuss provide feedback and Implications of what this focus area plan represents and opportunities for moving forward I did just want to note a couple quick things one Given that the planning commission has our regular meeting and it's a big one tonight It starts at 5 30 we are gonna have a hard stop at this meeting at 5 15 But we don't want to cut short the discussion on the southeast area plan That is really the core of today's meeting and if that's what we we can extend our time on that discussion as needed If time allows and we can move and think about the bigger picture implications about Braggtown and the comprehensive plan and other opportunities that would be great But just so everyone knows our hope is that the big part of the meeting will be the discussion on the southeast area plan Mayor shill is gonna as he said he's gonna run that part of the meeting I have asked and and suggested that we'd love to hear from council members first and then planning commissioners But we do believe we have enough time for everyone to be able to speak But again, I want to thank you all for your time, especially the mayor and council members Our meetings are quite short compared to yours you deal with all the cases We see plus a lot of other items and it's the final vote So it's the last chance for the public to weigh in so really appreciate your time and your leadership and adding an extra Hour hour and 15 minutes to your very busy schedule with that we are gonna start off with a brief staff Presentation and then mayor shill will kick off the discussion I also want to echo mayor shill in thanking our staff the staff is doing an outstanding job As you all know they have added this to their plate along with the comprehensive plan work and all the other work that They're dealing with so it's it's really appreciated and respected so with that said I'm gonna hand it to Scott Whiteman for the staff presentation and we'll go from there. Thanks again My name is agenda, but Kayla cyber will actually be giving the presentation, but I will be sharing the PowerPoint slides Great. Thank you Scott. All right Good evening planning commission members and members of the city council Thank you for giving us a chance to present to you in a unique joint session The draft recommendations for the southeastern focus area a component of Durham's new comprehensive plan My name is Kayla cyber a senior planner with the Durham city county planning department I'm here with Scott Whiteman and members of the comprehensive planning team to answer questions or provide clarity after a very brief presentation Tonight we are seeking guidance on the draft recommendations before planning staff begin using this guidance to review cases in the southeast Durham area the recommendations will remain in draft form until the entire comprehensive plan is considered for adoption Here's a snapshot of the overall timeline for the comprehensive plan with the southeast Durham focus area highlighted in yellow As you can see we are nearing the end of this part of the project and are simultaneously planning engagement and materials For the other plan components that come for the entire county After today's meeting we will give this presentation to the board of county commissioners And then hand off this work to the land use case planners to begin using this in their upcoming case review All of this work is scheduled to start plan adoption in late fall 2022 On the next slide for a brief background Disfocus area was selected based on requests from the planning commission and the city council For near-term recommendations on how development should occur in this fast-growing area Due to the city's investment in the southeast regional lift station and fire station 17 This boundary was drawn as the primary Area to be served by that lift station and is generally bounded by us 70 Sharon road NC 98 and the county line The purpose of this focus area is to develop near-term recommendations That apply the plan schools and objectives to a specific area Understand what residents see as existing needs and priorities And understand which land uses residents want to see and recommend new future land uses that we're calling place types To inform zoning and annexation requests The place types and policies specifically drafted for this focus area will allow staff planning commission and the elected officials Begin using this guidance to inform decisions about rezoning and annexation requests coming in now Staff may also better understand if there are refinements needed or issues that should be worked out And improved for the larger comprehensive plan project On the next slide in early march, we began seeking input from residents in a broad online engagement opportunity And held a virtual community meeting on may 20th Engaged our program assistant Ami Mejia led interviews to reach spanish-speaking residents to hear their needs and priorities for this area as well We have included these perspectives in an engagement summary and in the draft recommendations We have the full engagement summary and demographics in your packet on attachment three We now have draft recommendations that were shared with residents in late july Here residents could view an interactive map read the place type descriptions and review the draft policies for this area We also had another community meeting on september 2nd A list of survey responses and emails received on the recommendations is found in attachment seven We want to reiterate that this won't be the end of engagement with residents in the southeast Durham area Encourage residents to participate in the full plan as we take a comprehensive look at the whole county And seek to hear perspectives and residents who we don't typically hear from in digital forums On the next slide So given the pace of this section of the plan and the need for interim guidance to handle development pressure in this area We focused our recommendations on key concerns We also saw this as an opportunity to practice applying the community goals and objectives that were adopted this summer Our guiding document for the plan and we analyzed this along with community input to understand which objectives could be furthered the most in this area So beginning with the community goals and objectives and the input we received over the spring and summer The policies in place type map accomplish the following They encourage a variety of housing types on parcels that are not already entitled or recently constructed with a single housing type Encourage commercial development to provide for daily needs Either through locations of the neighborhood services place type or recommending a mix of uses within the residential place types Encourage complete neighborhoods and multimodal connections in the policies by echoing what is strongly called for in the community goals and objectives to prioritize residents who do not use cars The recommendations strengthen environmental protections by recommending clustering or grouping of development Away from environmentally sensitive areas And on the place type map, we've indicated the natural heritage areas flood plains and eastern germ open space plan buffers On the map itself and call for minimal disturbance in these areas Finally, we recommend phasing of new development with with infrastructure Through something we're calling the future growth area That's east of camp road and virginal road And we recommend build out or end fill of areas that can already be served by the southeast regional lift station and fire station On the next side digging in a little bit more detail on the recommendations Each of these documents work together to assist planning staff and elected officials and residents To evaluate new zoning map change and annexation applications The place types and policies developed from this work will remain in draft form And staff can begin using this guidance immediately to inform decisions about those applications In using the interim recommendations staff may discover further refinements are needed and certain issues should be worked out with comprehensive plan So these are snapshots of the three attachments in your packet With that with that overview. We want to share key highlights from each of the focus area components Starting with place types The place types are a key to understanding the map These are land use designations that work in the same ways as the future land use map you all currently use But they're more detailed and provide more information about the kind of development that is desired This guide outlines land use mobility green space and service provision characteristics for every place type indicated on the map So speaking of the map on the next slide The place type map for southeastern focus area shows where all the place types are assigned We wanted to draw your attention to the new place types we've drafted for this area The future growth area that's shown in the hatched outline on the right side of the map We recommend that significant development in this area not be approved until critical services and infrastructure have been funded The future growth area includes Recommended place types to guide development decisions after a new fire station is funded underneath the hatched area So that's what you see place types underneath the hatching The mixed residential neighborhood place type Is a new place type shown in this brown color that is primarily residential But on parcels that have significant environmental features That we want new development to build away from as well as provide multiple housing types While commercial or institutional uses if they're viable and integrate green spaces and good multimodal connections We revised a policy that we had in the initial draft Um to add some flexibility about the encouraging of multiple housing types But this may not be need to apply to smaller less than 20 acre sites Based on the feedback we received The 15 minute neighborhood that's in the dark purple That's a concept that has come up in each stage of our engagement so far as something that is desired as A place that's very walkable with centrally located Commercial and institutional and good multimodal infrastructure within just a 15 minute walk or bike or bike ride We clarified in the attachment that the 15 minute neighborhoods must include both residential and non residential uses However, the overall development may still end up being primarily residential And finally drawing attention to the neighborhood services area. This is the dark red These are smaller sites located usually at road intersections with good access to the surrounding neighborhoods We heard a strong desire for commercial to serve the new and insisting neighborhoods here We believe these sites have the potential to provide small scale basic essentials to the surrounding homes We're moving on to policies There are 24 policies focused on the most impactful topics to development in this area The land use process housing and land use transportation in the environment We wanted to highlight a few A few of these policies here So in that the housing and land use policy Under 2b says the city and county were no longer except proffers that restrict housing based on age This we wanted to explain a bit more on this. This is an idea that is found repeatedly in the community input that we've received And reflected in the goals and objectives that residents do not want to see neighborhoods that feel exclusive We wanted to clarify here that developments are legally allowed to include private age restrictions But the planning department recommends against proffered restrictions enforced by the city or the county These kinds of proffers are primarily used to reduce the overall number of projected vehicle trips To avoid additional roadway improvement In the transportation policy 3a There is language echoing what is called for in the community goals and objectives about prioritizing non car modes and creating greater access For residents in our community who walk Bike or ride transit We want to reiterate that this is a goal and that applicants are encouraged to be creative And meet this desire from our community within the constraints that we often see Like requirements from the state first state maintained right of way However, the staff acknowledges that under current conditions cars will be the primary mode of transportation in this area Finally for the policies related to the environment We know this is a key concern for the greenfield development pattern that we're seeing where a site is mass graded or clear cut So we wanted to address this by adding several policies related to enhanced tree coverage expectations and environmental protection of sensitive areas Residents have shared this as a value. It's reflected in the community goals and objectives We've heard concern However on the development community that the combination of these policies may make some sites difficult to develop So finally, I know I know that was a very brief presentation We wanted to make sure you had enough time to have a joint discussion about this work A final reminder that as we work with these interim recommendations and continue to engage with residents in the southeast storm area That we identify refinements to these recommendations and fold them into the larger plan At this time, planning staff is recommending that these recommendations not be formally adopted But this can still be used as a guide for land use cases in the draft form We would like your specific feedback Any feedback you have on the draft recommendation to gauge your the support of the commission and council before we begin using them Thank you Decisive. Well, thank you so much for that presentation and thank you for the planning staff for all the work that you've done To get us to this place. We really appreciate it Friends, I'm now going to Open this up for a discussion would love to hear your comments. I think uh Chair busby suggested the council go first and so I'm happy to do that So any council member that would like to begin with a comment or also if you have a question for staff at this point, um There's a lot of people here today, so maybe raise your virtual hand would be helpful with uh, you know With an actual virtual hand icon there Okay mayor pro tem Thank you, mr. Mayor, and I just want to also appreciate the staff for all the work that Has gone into this plan. Um, I really like this map and I think it's uh, Really helpful in terms of helping us to think about When we get proposals in this area like what we really Think that we should be seeing in different places. Um, there's been a lot of concern about lack of commercial development and figuring out where Where there are options for commercial for commercial development or for other community amenities And what areas make more sense for residential? um, I had a couple of questions one is whether there's a version of this map on our gis system that we can like So that we can go a little bit deeper into Into the areas and see more More detail about About specific areas and the other questions about this future Future development area. Do we have anything pending? In that area now that's going to be coming to us in, you know, the next couple of months or so Good question. I can I can try to answer those for the first question about Is there something more interact I guess more interactive and gis so you can dig deeper into the map. Yes We have an interactive map on our website and I'll get that and put it in the chat so you can dig in deeper Um in your second question about developments Being considered in the future growth area. I need to call my colleagues to make sure Don't want to give the wrong information Go ahead scott Hi, yes, ma'am. Mayor pertin the uh, we do have one pending application in the future growth area It was submitted well before these recommendations were adopted. So we have Talked with that applicant about potential path forward. Um But it's still obviously up to discretion of the council whether or not to approve that Thank you. What is it? It is a You'll probably be surprised to hear it's a large residential development. Um, that is just Uh east of camp road, um, and where the curb is on the northern end Okay, thank you Thank you, mr. Mayor Thank you, madam mayor pertin. Kelsey never Reese Thank you, mr. Mayor. Um, I just want to thank you and chair busby for bringing us together Um, this is a fantastic opportunity for us to share our thoughts about this very pressing issue And then hopefully we can have some time to talk about some of their related items as well I also want to thank staff for the amazing work that went into preparing This uh, this map and these plans. I guess the the central question I have What is the what is the How does staff imagine that this this kind of this plan? um And this map will be used by planning staff and evaluating uh proposals for annexation and rezoning And how to how is it envisioned that the planning commission in the city council would use? This map and these kind of designations What is the what is the vision of the planning staff for this plan and how it will be used by staff and by Those of us who review these plans Thank you councilmember. Um, mr. Waidman Miss young who who would like to take that very central question? I'll take the first out of that and the planning director can jump in at any time and thought me from saying something wrong um, we intend to use these as As policies that we will review the cases against and we will ask the applicants to follow these. Um We would suggest that the planning commission council do the same Although there it's not an adopted plan so But as you all know that the uh The council and the commission are not required by law to follow the plan anyway In this case, you would just not have to pass a motion acknowledging that you're not following the plan Since it's not adopted yet I see sarah's on if you have any anything you want to add Sure. Good afternoon everyone. Good to see you all That is an excellent question and one that the staff has pondered a lot We see these draft recommendations as just that just like we offer you all our professional opinion Including things that are not necessarily codified in ordinance or stipulated in policy We would suggest that you consider these Similarly to how you consider some of our other professional recommendations. So Acknowledging that they are just Draft until the full plan is adopted Can I follow up questions from there? Is it There are some things that the council cannot base its zoning and annexation decisions on Are the recommendations in this plan Things that the that the city council can base its zoning and annexation decisions on Or is there going to be something in here that I say for example? I'm sorry This uh, this area is intended to have a mix of commercial and residential, but this project Only includes residential and on the basis of the recommendation of staff about Due to this this particular plan. I'm voting no I'm it or is that going to get the city in trouble? Are we allowed to do that? Help me understand the parameters of this plan and is there anything in here That's going to get reversed by a superior court judge later on and the city have to pay the developers legal fees Because I'd rather not do that if possible Thanks That's an excellent question. And I believe we probably have an attorney on the call that may want to To chime in as well, but Again, because these are not adopted I think you definitely Should consider them kind of with a grain of salt, right? Because you could potentially adopt something different than what the map shows Or a wording of a policy that could be tweaked as staff has said Before the final plan is adopted. So I think that there needs to be some you need to take these into general consideration just like you do when Folks from the community step up in a public hearing and they say all sorts of things about their personal opinions or feelings about a project There may or may not be based in policy Or ordinance and you still weigh those in your consideration. So I would I would just internalize that But I would maybe not reference it because it's not explicitly because it's not going to be adopted policy yet And so we will also Be cautious in how we phrase that in our staff reports I don't remember anything else We got a lot else, but I'm only one person so I'm going to stop now. Okay. Thank you Other council members at this time Council member Middleton Thank you. Mr. Mayor and good afternoon friends. This is indeed a historic gathering So it's really good to see all of you and I want to thank Chair Busby His honor for for sharing today I want to also echo the commendations to the staff incredible piece of work. Now. This is a much heralded and anticipated Moment this this small area plan for southeast Durham I live in southeast Durham. So I'm personally vested In this work Councilor council member Reese's questions really go to the heart of what I was Going to ask not nearly as Detailed or appointed as he But but it certainly is within the ball part of what my concerns were Or questions I should say and you know, we really were looking forward to this this small area plan But it kind of sounds like here's a brave new world Stay the same Govern yourself accordingly as you did did before so I guess from a nuts and bolts point of view Kind of dovetailing on council Reese's questions. Some of the recommendations that encourage Mixed use in some Development so as a decision maker Who's doing the encouraging is does that encouragement occur at the Application submission point is staff encouraging Uh, does that encouragement occur before the planning commission or when it comes to us? Do we sit at the day as an encourage the developer to To do mixed use development just in the nuts and bolts kind of way where would that encouragement occur as as listed in the Rex Maybe staff can Is this thing on um Okay I'm happy to take a stab at this one and scott or sarah anyone else has um any additional insight They're well, they're more than welcome to jump in but I can say from um, the Pre-submitted meeting is the first time we normally meet with potential applicants And we certainly share everything we can we try to be as open and honest About our concerns about a project or what we may what may appear to be um speed bumps Or hiccups that may come up in the process So we try to be very transparent and we you know like an example would be um the comprehensive plan policy that over the last You know several years 15 years when we have a pre-submitted meeting We say you know make sure you're paying attention to these policies doesn't look like you're really meeting the intent of this policy But we would like for you to consider This because we're going to call this out in our staff report potentially if you do not address that so Um, yes, we do daylight our concerns early on in the process in these pre-submitted meetings and even concept meetings We have conceptual meetings with people that haven't even gotten to the pre-submitted stage yet so um Wanted to just if that helps at all It does it does. Do you do you anticipate? this these recs in full form um, and they're complete for if adopted if this becomes uh policy or or or whatever do you anticipate this being part of The packet the the submission packet for are we going to trumpet this? Up front to to developers and potential developers who are interested in doing work in Durham. How far and why will this be disseminated? Um, I see sarah has turned on her camera. So that's my cue to maybe let her go and speak. So I'll let her take it So First of all, I want to caution everyone. Let's not call these regs because they're policies Regs RECS Okay Bad audio on my end. Okay. I just want to make sure we're good with that. So yes the the recommendations um We are going to be transparent with the development community Um, that you know, this was something and I think the mayor said this at the beginning of the meeting That was asked for in advance of the comp plan being finished And so we need to be transparent with the development community that we've done this work Um, and and we have been they know that it's out there. We've gotten comments from several Um, several folks from the development community on them and that we are going to be looking at projects as they come through In light of these, you know, and for a couple of reasons one is this is kind of a trial run of these To see did we get it right? Did we get it wrong? Did we miss something? It's a way to test out and see how How effective the policies might be and have a chance to Find tune them before the final plan is adopted. So we do intend to be very transparent with the development community We don't have everything figured out yet exactly how that's going to work. Um, what form it'll take But uh, trust they will not be blindsided by this Thank you, sir. There are lots of people also. I'll yield here back. Mr. Mayor. Thank you all so much Thank you councilmember Uh council colleagues any other questions or comments at this time? Uh councilmember caviato so just Curious how explicit Will this be used in staff report to help guide us So I know that like the map we've seen a little glimpse of the map. I think previous to today So just did a curiosity I understand that it's not, um That these are basically Guidances, um, but when we get our packet, how is that going to impact what we see on our end? I think what you will see is you will see In the staff report We will make mention and say that the draft recommendations or the draft map calls for x y and z So we'll be very clear to call it out that it's a draft recommendation right now, but we will Share it through the staff report Does that does that answer your question? Yeah, I know you're going to frame your language as in we believe x But it's more of a guidance versus they didn't meet this right so it's Not firm language, but at least maybe aspirational language. Okay Thank you council colleagues any other questions or comments before I move to the commissioners All right, uh, and now I'll ask our, uh Friends from planning commission, uh Chair busby Thank you. Thank you, mr. Mayor Just just to follow up on the the really important conversation and the questions from council members To start Could the staff share Again, I want to make sure I have this correct as well for the moment. This this is draft guidance. I think it's still really important but How the draft guidance then may get wrapped into the overall comprehensive plan and then the timing of the comprehensive plan that it would be valuable to To hear the general thinking on that timeline And am I correct in that assumption that a lot of this will move? We're just in a transition period where this may be draft guidance But then we'll eventually become part of the updated comprehensive plan It's chair busby. That's correct. Um, we anticipate that a lot of these policies and um how we treat large new developments will be While we get The bulk of them right now out in southeast Durham. These areas are applicable countywide So we anticipate we will certainly See as we go along over the next, um year or so if there are Issues that we didn't see When we originally drafted these that need to be changed in the final comprehensive plan But we fully anticipate that some version of these will end up in the the final adopted plan Which would be sometime in late 2022 Great. Okay. Thank you. So essentially I think the conversation we just had is really important and helpful But it there will we're in an 18 month transition potentially where we will be referencing draft guidance and then at some future point We will be referencing the updated adopted comprehensive plan That's gone through the the official adoption process Uh, I also just want to just add a few comments and these are all just things that I'm really excited about I think having a map is a really important step forward. So I think that is a very useful tool The place type along with the place type map The future growth area I think is a really important step just to be able for us to be able to say This is what we're thinking and especially the notion that it would be tied to future Capacity that we'd be putting into place, you know, critical services that would come And so I think that's a really important step as well. So I commend the staff on that I really like the 15 minute neighborhood concept So i'm looking forward to continuing to talk about that but that I think encapsulates a lot of the things We hear the most often from community members as they look at development proposals And then finally I think the staff did a really good job listening my experience on the planning commission The three items we hear the most from our citizens that are concerns as there are rezoning Are the ones that were highlighted in the report housing transportation and environmental protection. So again, I'm very excited I'm really interested to see how we all use this draft guidance over the next 18 months I'll just offer. I know this won't surprise council members. I have been Pretty consistently voting no on these plans in southeast storm, but my comments have represented The interest in having a plan to then move forward. So I know this is draft guidance But for me, this is an important step because we have heard from the community We have draft guidance on a plan with the map and I believe it helps us then have informed decisions as we move forward So I'm really excited that the staff has taken the time to put this together and just wanted to lift up those items Thank you, mr. Mayor Thank you very much chair busby I'm going to call. I see four hands up and I'll do it in this order Commissioner cardinal williams commissioner morgan commissioner baker and commissioner dirkin. So commissioner williams Thank you very much. Uh, mayor sure. Uh, first of all, I would like to state that I Definitely like this plan. I like the way that it is laid out. I think it addresses a lot of the issues that we see on a recurring basis, I definitely think that uh This particular session encourages more cooperation between the planning commission And the city council so that it's more of a parallel interaction and opposed to a perpendicular or opposing ends With that being said, I definitely have uh, some concerns Consideration going forward as I know we talked about the connectivity of neighborhoods and there's an encouragement For these neighborhoods going forward to provide for non-card-driven Uh transportation methods. However, there were just millions of dollars spent on the east end connector to improve car driven transportation. So I think I would like to know more about how we're going to address issues with public transportation in this area beyond just creating neighborhoods that encourage that because A neighborhood where we don't really have modes of transportation that help people who don't drive cars Without having that infrastructure in place is concerning and my other question or at least comment or thought process was the increased neighborhood connectivity Though it does serve in terms of ems Are we going to address the issues where the streets are not wide enough so that at night multiple cars are parking on the street So it does not serve ems to be able to travel between these interconnected neighborhoods To service the people that we are providing for And how do we plan to address the flooding issues that are being represented in highly connected neighborhoods because water travels faster Over impervious surfaces than it does over non impervious surfaces Just things that we may have thought about or may not have been thought about that I think should be brought to the table But overall I think the map is an excellent reference point and it is going to be extremely helpful As it is laid out to pull out to be able to say, okay, this is where you are. This is where we're planning This is what we've already thought about so does this necessarily fit in the area because we've already had community engagement Which is a huge hurdle that we face when developers come in a lot of times that's left off the map where the minimum is acknowledged Those are my comments and thank you Williams, thank you so much. I'm going to ask staff. You heard commissioner Williams comments and her Comments about this being very helpful. But also she added that there are other Considerations that are on her mind and I know that she's not expecting a comprehensive answer But the staff have any comments on any of the issues that she highlighted Missable Yeah, thank you. I can begin and then ask god to chime in so Yes, commissioner Williams to hit on the major challenge for this area is transportation And there's no great great answer to that right now The new place type map At least makes this area more transit ready But unfortunately, there are no plans for significant bus service in the area There are bus routes that serve or will serve the periphery of this area along nc 98 or along us 70 ntw Alexander Because of this it is so important that development in this area includes a mix of uses that are well connected for non non-car modes and Scott I think Do you have some more things to add? Yeah, in regards to the flooding question. I know that's always concerned when For folks that are downstream from new developments um anything that's out here is Will be built to the city's stormwater standards I think most of the flooding problems that we See in Durham are in the older neighborhoods that were built before that so the most right these These neighborhoods should be Able to and be required to by law to contain the stormwater runoff from all their impervious surfaces I had a quick question if I may I don't want to hold anybody up But is that a layer that we would be able to access via gis to see where existing Uh runoffs or floodplains are in reference to these developments or these land plots going forward. So as developers are Building in I know sometimes the development plan is not always required when it comes to us But it would be helpful to be able to see how these areas would be impacted based off development So there would be on gis We would have um topography and floodplains that would give you an idea of where the runoff is going and whatever where the Flooding concerns are and we are recommending that all floodplains in this area remain undeveloped Awesome. Thank you so much Thank you commissioner commissioner morgan Thank you, mayor shul. Um a couple things. I was just saying as I really do applaud the planning commission for putting together this map and The definition of a lot of the place types that are actually referenced in the map itself I think these are good tools, especially with the social pinpoint site That the planning commission the planning department has made available to the public And I do think this is very helpful In communicating since I I live in this area and I certainly get a lot of comments from my Neighbors and and folks that are concerned about the development in this area itself One of the things I would make comment about on the place types is While it is very granular and very detailed from a sense of different types or different uses for place types Maybe we have too many of them when maybe way too granular because I know we're trying to categorize things Based upon you know ideals there, but again each application that we might get May not fit one or the other and I thought maybe if there's a way to Look at things like you know mix residential use or planned neighborhoods or things like that that are categories Maybe collapsing them into something easier. It probably certainly more options than what we have with the tier systems, but I do think that The the planned place types and again with any kind of draft It's obviously good for editing and obviously you it's better to have more stuff than than not enough The other part of it is that I do think that the study and I'm encouraged to hear That there's going to be more interest in getting neighborhood and People involved and my my thought there Is we have some loud voices in the area and so we certainly would like to make sure We not only hear their voice, but hear some other folks that do live in the area and I do Appreciate the staff's approach to try to reach out to it I kind of play a dual role only because I live in the area and being a planning commission member I'm very much interested in seeing development in moving forward in some ways It's kind of like we're getting all this after a number of applications have occurred And I'm glad that at least it's we're getting something that we can kind of work with From a planning commission perspective So I I definitely encourage this and I do feel like with other areas in the city Particularly north Durham. We've got an option another Big area where I'm getting a lot of feedback from the community These type of maps and these type of drawings I think that's real helpful to communicate with the public And to try to avoid some of the confusion that occurs You know, my neighborhood is a lot of transplants a lot of people that know how it works in other areas of the country But they don't know how it works here in Durham And obviously that's my role is to try to help them And educate them who to talk to and who to get to and really how it really works from a legal perspective in North Carolina So again, that's just my feedback and comments and I appreciate The help and I also appreciate a better working relationship with council to kind of work together more in in You know meeting these objectives. So I'm glad for the the joint meeting Thank you very much. Commissioner Morgan. I wonder if Someone from planning commission could comment on uh, commissioner morgan's uh point about Looking at the possibility of I'm not sure. I've got your word right telescoping some of the place types I don't think that was a word to use but I'm trying to get close to Uh, mr. Mr. Whiteman. Do you have any thoughts about that? You do we um when we started putting these together We tried to minimize them as much as possible and we have um, we have collapsed them quite a bit But what we find is Derm is a big Complicant Derm County is a big complicated place. We have city. We have suburb. We have country. Um, We have very strange things like large universities and uh Giant research park. So, um, it's hard to narrow down the place types anymore than we already have I think if anyone has good suggestions We'd be happy to hear them. Um, but At this point, I think it's The least we can do the fewest we can do Thank you, mr. Whiteman, and I know that if Uh, commissioner morgan if you have specific Uh, you know thoughts about a couple of things that might be combined. I know the staff would be welcome to that So, thank you. I'll submit them to mr. Whiteman Um, thank you so much for your comments. Uh, commissioner baker Yeah, thank you. Um, thanks for uh to the mayor and to the chair for coming up with this This idea for us all to meet. I think we've been I'm speaking past one another and part of that's just because we haven't been able to sit in the same room Um, there are, uh, many things that that I like about this plan. Um, three things in particular that I think are are excellent are The the community engagement. Um Urban peripheries are really difficult places to engage with the community because there are a lot of different types of stakeholders with a lot of different interests So that work has been good Applying the the policy spatially Um in this area in a high growth area. It's really important. Um, we have good policy already We we had good policy in the old comprehensive plan, but it certainly wasn't applied spatially So this is helpful And then the other thing is the future growth area that uh, that uh, uh, vice chair, but busby or chair busby mentioned Um, which is a really really important concept and and one that i'm glad is being introduced and something that we certainly need to Um, I think institutionalized in in a variety of different ways um So those are three things that I that I really like And ultimately, you know, I think that this plan is is a step in the right direction And obviously an improvement, uh over where we are today Um, I guess what gives me a little bit of heartburn when I when I read through it is is the generalized wording and the generalized nature The shoulds, uh, the encourages Um, sort of the the lack of of details and actions Um, which is to me what what I think we really really need at this point um, because uh, even even the old or somewhat old slash current comprehensive plan It has good policy. There's really good policy and and there's very similar language in there Um, and I feel like at this moment in time we're overdue for some real tangible change in the way that we do A development and manage growth in Durham. Um, you know, something we always say is the battle for sustainability Will be lost or won by by how we manage our growth and and I think that that That saying applies very strongly here. Um, so, you know, I I'd like to see some stronger language and some more detail about implementation Um, I'd like to see us as a city more actively use Our zoning powers because zoning powers are, you know, very very powerful. We can do a lot with them Um, and you know, I just keep thinking about, you know, the IPCC report, uh intergovernmental intergovernmental panel on climate change Which is developed by scientists and it says we need drastic and fundamental change to society. Um And we have to do it like immediately like starting, you know last year Uh, we we need to change the way that we live and the way that we get around And one of the easiest ways of doing that is by growing the right way rather than going back and trying to fix things that that we messed up in the past Um, so I guess ideally for me like this plan would would serve as a clear dividing line Between the old ways the old unsustainable growth and development practices And then there's this plan and then there's the new And the comprehensive plan and then there's the new progressive walkable and sustainable development practices of a sustainable and progressive city and and progressive beacon of the south um and and I I hope that um this plan can serve can serve that way and um if there are Changes that we need to make um, then then that would be great. But that's that's the direction I would that I would hope that we can go on this Thank you Thank you very much commissioner. I wonder if staff could comment on commissioner bakers comments about The the the language of encouragement versus the language of requirement. Um, I think it's something we all struggle with Uh, and uh, I wondered if staff could talk about how you strike that balance as was rare, um in general When we're using policies and things like the comprehensive plan we use more general language um because It's uh applying so generally to so many places in the county and it's not a law and so When there are when instances come up where there's possibly a good reason why the policies can't Can't be applied It's good to have that should in there rather than chow because the chow gives you no no wiggle room But the fact that this should mean does not mean that We're not going to follow them Should means that it's a policy that We believe it should be followed in in most all cases In in ordinance and law You don't have that wiggle room. And so that's when we believe that that's where you need to have the the shells and the uh More concrete language Thank you very much. Mr. Whiteman um, one thing I would suggest uh, commissioner banker is And you you're you're not a shy person. Uh, and so I'm sure you've probably thought of this already But if there are particular, um Language changes that you think would be good I'm sure the staff would be happy to hear them Uh, and so I would just encourage that all right, um commissioner durkin Thank you. I also want to echo the Thanks for the staff's work on this. I also want to thank all of us for Being willing to address this area of the city and the county Despite the fact that so much development has already occurred. We're not looking at this as if it's too it's too late and there's we can't do anything about it now. I really am super excited about the potential of kind of putting this on pause in a way to to Devere in a different course and make it in a A path of development that we're all more ready Uh and eager to see I also and appreciate the fact that we're both We're also looking forward and we're doing this ahead of the comp plan So we're not saying we're not right saying neither it's too late or it's too early And I'm really glad that we're doing that especially in this part of the county because I'm also In the boat of where I've been voting no for a lot of these developments because they don't Meet what I want to see in Durham and I'm excited to have this guidance And while it's not a requirement at this point because it's not fully adopted Developers follow guidance both from the planning commission and from city council and so now we have a more It's not quite codified, but a more organized method of showing the guidance that we want them to follow I'm I'm excited to have that in our toolkit. Thanks Mr. Durkin. Thank you so much um Other comments from our commissioners or questions for staff Any of our commissioners uh commissioner amandalia Thank you mayor shul My first just want to echo the appreciation for having this meeting I think it's great that the commission and the city council are collaborating and I look forward to continuing that collaboration And I'm also want to thank the staff For their work on this To me, it's pretty impressive that we're doing this internally and I know it's a big lift for staff and A drain on staff resources But I appreciate this work and think it's meaningful for our city and our county and I Mostly want to talk about what I like about this plan and I'll be brief But I really just appreciate the guidance that we have I appreciate that to me The broad takeaway from this is that we are using this land better than what we currently are I mean, that's what I've been wanting to see out of this area. It's not necessarily zero use But just better use instead of seeing Loads of suburban residential development This plan gives us more of a mixture and we start to see commercial development and more transit options considered Um, and that is important to me. I think um There have been times where we looked at cases And we've said, you know, we wish that we kind of had higher density on less land in this area instead of what we got So I am looking forward to where this takes us and I think it's going to be a good step in the right direction One thing that I would just note is For me, I would like to just strike out the word incremental from the language that we're using here I think we all recognize that the changes In these recommendations are probably going to be incremental because It takes time to change existing development to conform with The ideals that we have currently um But I don't think we should necessarily like Acknowledge that and their plan because our plan is meant to be idealistic It's meant to be our best vision for Durham and I think All of us can agree in this room like our best Um ideal for Durham is making the change to have a more sustainable community that works and benefits for everyone um One other thing that I just really like about this plan is that we Especially have language about what we don't want development to look like we have place types that say we don't want this moving forward We would like to move away from this I think that's very important because it is very explicit about what we would like to see and what we would not like to see And to me that's helpful Because it gives not only a clear guide to the development community, but it gives a guide to um our residents about The vision that we have for the city and the county Um, and I am looking forward to hearing more of our community's feedback on that front Um, those are really the only comments I have at this time I have some other thoughts, but I'll save those for a Email comments to staff since we have limited time. Thank you Thank you very much commissioner. I'm andolia other Councilman we're going to get back to you. I promise But we've got uh, and I've seen important questions in the chat But I want to make sure uh that our other commissioners who haven't had a chance if anyone else Any of our planning commissioners would like to be heard with a with a comment or question at this point I don't oh, I'm sorry, uh commissioner cut right good to see you You two appreciate it mayor shul um Just a quick thought here is um one, I like the the idea of Establishing these different place types. Um, you know in this region I think that it has the potential to do some very good good work in the area um one concern will be Whether or not the things that we want are The things that developers are looking to do and Have we thought about or considered incentives for allowing developers To do this type of work and to meet the criteria for the recommendations. For example Um More rapid approval of their applications are things like that that encourage Them to sort of fit All the things that we want into their development Um, you know, maybe a slightly different approach, but sort of the same theory Of commissioner baker in that, you know, these are things that we absolutely want and you know Maybe putting a carrot out there and saying, you know to the extent that you can meet these All of these things and and create this place type that we desire Then you have the opportunity to to move to the front of the line if you will Um, you know in terms of getting your development or your zoning approved or whatever the case might be Um, just wanted to see if that was a consideration Uh for for helping to push this along in the right direction Or if that's something we can even do Thank you. Thank you very much I'm gonna uh, I see director young is here to respond So that is something that we have um as part of ongoing process improvements to the land use process Um to other internal processes. We are considering things like that In addition to balancing that with um more robust engagement as well So that is something we're looking at. I would ask you all to kind of park that for now We need to get through um what it is that we're going to ask people to do and and this actually kind of gets to um what councilmember reese put in the chat as an example of Not not knowing exactly how these recommendations which will hopefully become adopted policy at some point kind of play out and and what I would say is that The reason I think we haven't seen some of these things um in proposals that have come to you all Is because there's nothing in our current comp plan or in our ordinance that requires it And so these new sets of recommendations are establishing the baseline expectation of what we want to see And we you know as more and more developers come through and and see that oh This is this is what the the city and the county expect of development The hope is that you will start to see that because the things that that folks include Um, you know, we see time and time again are the things that are already in our comp plan or in our ordinance So, um, I take your your point absolutely that we haven't seen any projects that do like the example That was given in the chat But I think that part of this is setting what that community expectation is for future development and then hopefully Development rises to that challenge Thank you. Thank you commissioner for that important question. Thank you miss young um, I really appreciate the discussion we're having and uh Chair busby and I have been communicating and and we're just going to go ahead and stick with this subject I think we don't have that much time and I think that we're We can come back together to to have another discussion, but I think that's where we are And I see mr. Commissioner morgan agrees with me All right Commissioner cameron Hey, good evening everyone and like everyone. I think all the work that has gone into this I just want us to consider and I know we keep getting down in the weeds because that's just Who we are as public servants. We like to know the details, but um, you know, I I want us to consider better when we talk about a variety of housing options. What that really means You know, that does not mean $250,000 townhomes and four to five hundred dollars single family homes if we could really dig down into that and Maybe also say a variety of income levels that go with that variety of housing options Every low-income person does not want to live in a townhome. I'm a whatever income person I don't want to live in a townhome. So with that we really need to be creative When we talk about the variety of housing options, I saw something about duplexes in the plan that is a great Housing option that we can explore more that I don't think is used enough in the city of Durham And that we look at potentially a master developer concept Plan on commissioner cut rights idea And then that master developer invites other types of developers to Provide those variety of housing options at a variety of income levels and that will get us I think what we are striving for in the city of Durham. That's all I want to say. Thank you Thank you very much commissioner Cameron um, any comments on that from staff Uh, mr. Whiteman or mr. Seibel only that that's a very good point from mr. Cameron Okay, yeah, thank you commissioner Cameron. Also, um, the language about variety of price points and incomes is strongly called for in the community goals and objectives as well So definitely something we've been hearing a lot from our community Thanks for bringing that up. Thank you very much other commissioners that have not Been able to be heard yet anyone else have any comments All right, I'm going to go back to council member Reese then who's raised a number of important points in the chat some of which have been addressed Uh, but uh council member. Sorry everybody. Sometimes I can't find the mute button Um, I think commissioner Cameron brings up an excellent point which gets back to the question that I raised at the very beginning If the plan if the plan did have uh suggestions for um For example an affordability matrix. Uh, so that there were affordable housing options in these, uh, developments Are I I don't believe we could As a council then say oh gosh, this project doesn't comport with the policy that recommends that there be, um You know 20 percent of the units in this project Affordable for families making less than 80 percent of area median income. Um, and so I vote no And I don't believe that we have the authority to do that And so that that's an area where I fear that putting putting a recommendation in like that Risks giving folks In the community the impression that that that's something we can do when I I don't think it is um And and that and my original question was about are there other things in the in this draft These draft policies and the guidance that are like that that are things the community wants The thing all of us want but that we can't deliver Via zoning um, and that's obviously a question for staff and um legal counsel that We're going to need to hear from uh in the days of weeks ahead Thank you councilmember I agree that's going to be a bigger question But does anyone from staff want to comment on that at this point? I see mr. Atul and miss young mr. Atul Hey, uh, this is donno tool from the city attorney's office I just uh wanted to reassure council and the planning commission members That staff is running drafts of this plan and i'm sure they'll be running Other parts of the draft comprehensive plan by me And I have been quickly reviewing that and um getting any legal concerns I have with language back to them and I think sarah can attest to that Yeah, that's that's exactly what I was going to mention that um all these recommendations and any future drafts Versions of these or other recommended policies will all be run through the attorney's office We have tried to work really hard To address that very concern of yours councilmembers and make sure that we don't have anything in here That is um illegal that we can't deliver on Um, and also that we just can't uh effectively address through zoning. Thank you very much Thank you very much miss young and mr. Atul kept councilmember raise anything else on that I just had a you know another example is a policy for draft recommendation policy for b That reads in new developments half of the required tree preservation should be located outside of required stream buffers I agree that all to happen But I don't know that we have the authority to enforce that um, and so that's you know Stuff like that is in here and I and I love those ideas Please tell me if we can if we can do that because that would be awesome um, but but Normally we don't see projects like that and normally we don't require that are developers and I think the reason Maybe in some cases is we're just weak and cowardly But maybe the other reason is we can't and I'd like to know the difference If I could chime in that's a really good example of one where um, we have actually uh, that's an outgrowth of where staff has started to Be a little more critical of projects as they come through in terms of what we consider best planning practices This is a policy where we see a very clear lineage to a future ordinance amendment That would turn this into a shower that would require or change the rules for tree preservation and how it's done But there there's nothing that precludes us from um Including this as a policy and in fact you you've had at least one maybe more recent cases Where there were some changes made to where tree coverage was it was not all in the buffers Based on comments that staff had initially provided Then some feedback from the planning commission and some feedback from you all when you continued the case And when what they came back with absolutely had moved some of the tree coverage and increased Outside of what was required. So this is what I don't have any heartburn about That's awesome because we really don't want you to have heartburn Okay friends It is a you all have a long meeting ahead of you and I bet you want to go Have an apple and some peanut butter before you do it So I'm going to say just one word. I'm going to then turn it over to chair busby to adjourn us After he has some words that he might want to offer just want to thank you all for being here council members and commissioners I thought it was really good useful And uh, I hope that we can do it again. Um, I say we advisedly That will be another we not me. Uh, there will be a new mayor and I am uh, but I think that this has been extremely useful and I hope that uh, I hope that we can do it again And I like the way it was targeted to one thing and I'm sorry We didn't get to the other part of the discussion, but I think this was probably the best thing to do Um, I would just say I'll only differ with uh, director young in one regard That is she said, you know, you could take this with a grain of salt. I'm not planning to take a grain of salt I'm planning to take this as very important guidance. I understand it hasn't been adopted yet But what we did was the planning commission and the community and the council we asked our staff to Move this up in the planning process knowing that it would have to be wait for final adoption into the planning commission Uh, and when the comprehensive plan is adopted But I like what commissioner durkin said, uh about, you know, the way this can got us That uh, and her and the way in which she discussed the timing of this and I think that's exactly right I'm planning to use it as guidance and I'm sure it will be valuable guidance for for all of us Okay, uh, I think that's all accepted to again to give huge thanks to the staff for Doing this and really going above and beyond and getting it out here to us in a way that we can use And I'm going to turn it over to chair busby for final comments and to adjourn us Thank you again mayor shill and thanks again to the council members and also my fellow commissioners This has been really productive and and I hope we do do this again And I just want to echo mayor shill's final comments. I'm also planning to use this guidance And to be looking at it carefully. It does represent our community. We've had equitable Uh outreach and input and I know my comments to council as we continue to see proposals in this part of our Community will reference this draft guidance and then final guidance when we finish with our comprehensive plan So I look forward to continuing the conversation. I did just want to tell the planning commissioners This is uh, just a granular issue our meeting starts at 5 30 at the same zoom link So you can uh sign off or you can turn off your video and go mute and then we'll come back on at 5 30 But again mayor shill and council members. Thank you so much for your leadership and for the the really productive conversation today Mayor shill I can't adjourn a meeting with that. You're here. Why don't you adjourn the meeting? okay This meeting is officially adjourned at 5 18 p.m. Thank you everybody So if I want to go to the planning commission meeting, I should just stay on the zoom right I could just stay here And I don't want to vote or anything, but I want all the pain of misery You know, but yeah, you don't go to enough meetings charlie. You definitely need Or you can all guys have a have a great evening. Good luck to y'all Lots of love. Hey grace. Are you still on here?