 And because it didn't require special action of the council, therefore there was no need for a motion on the agenda. Correct. Thank you. I thank you for reminding me of all of that. Dorothy. Well, you have just talked out of my knowledge. I thought that was a suggestion. I don't think we voted on it. I don't think that's real. If you're telling me it is real, then I don't understand what you just said didn't make any sense to me. I thought we still were going to have a chance to vote for increased compensation. We just had an election in which people ran with an assumption that they were very good chance going to get that increased compensation. I think that we can talk about equity all we want, but if we can't pay for some, then it's just words. I think that the amount of work that one does on this council is extreme. I'm only working part-time as an adjunct teaching two courses. I am totally exhausted. I've got work to do. I'm behind in grading my papers. If somebody holds a job and is on the council, I think that it's a really difficult, challenging thing. And I think that $5,000 is not really equitable. So that is why some of us brought up increasing the compensation because we felt it was essential for more fairness. And I do hope we have a chance to vote it, and I hope that it would get supported. Thank you. Pam? Yeah, I want to just clarify what Lynn said that the first half would be the same rate as today. The second half would be the new rate. I don't think that's what you meant. I think you meant that the second half would be at a rate sufficient to equal the new amount across the year. So it would be more than just the new rate. It would make up for the lack of the new rate in the first half. That is not... I'm seeing people shake their heads that it was... Excuse me, that the rate would apply from January 1 through December 30. But the first half would be at the same rate as we are currently paying till the end of June because we can't affect it, because we can't change the budget. But that the second half would have to make up for that shortfall. Year two, there would be the new full rate from start to finish. Does that make sense? This is the way I understood the motion. I understood the discussion. From the beginning of January, from the new term, to the end of June, counselors would be paid at the rate they are presently paid. Starting in July 1, going to the following June 30, they would be paid over that 12-month period with the new rate. And then as of July 1 of 2025, the same thing would occur. Andy, did I get it? That's not how I understood it. That's not how I had understood it. Andy? No, I think that the motion was, as Lynn described it, I do think that it's worth stepping back for a second because my finance committee made a recommendation, but it's only a recommendation. The action belongs to the council. And so the distinction between what motion was, as Lynn described it, and what Councillor Rooney is saying is, what goes into the council budget guidelines that we provide to the town manager. And so to accomplish what Pam is saying, then we would need guidance, which could come later because the guidelines come to the council, and they belong to the council. And what the process is, the finance committee presents a draft. The council discusses the draft and can say that it wants a change, and then the change is considered at the next meeting after the finance committee can amend the guidelines as the vote goes, so that there is a process for this whichever way it is done. And I think that's kind of what needs to just be focused is that this is a discussion. It is not an action, but it's going to have to come back in some fashion and for the question of the amount to put into the guidelines for the next fiscal year, they would be higher if we're going to make the increase effective for the year as a whole by paying a double amount of the increase for the second six months as a calendar year catch-up. I think that what the finance committee was sort of fixated on in this discussion is that we were just trying to deal with the anomaly that exists between the charter talking about the calendar year and the fact that we operate actually on a fiscal year. And I guess the other thing that was discussed in the committee is that the charter actually says that for others, like people were saying, well, why isn't the school committee getting an increase? And the school committee under the charter could not get an increase. That would be effective January 1 because the increase would have to be commensurate with the fiscal year. So any increase voted for the school committee would have to occur beginning July 1 with a budget that gets to that amount. And so there was sort of like, this is not only that we're treating the council differently from the finance committee. And I just urge all of you to think about it, but the decision ultimately longs to the council as a whole. And just to clarify, Andy, because I think Dorothy was looking more for a motion, but you're suggesting that the resolution on this short of a motion that would start it sooner is through the financial guidelines. Well, the only way that you could start it sooner is if you reduce the amount that's being put into capital stabilization fund and use that money and say that you're going to transfer that money to the budget for the purpose of increasing council compensation. And I think that Athena wants to be recognized. Athena. So the council couldn't take that action on its own. The council wouldn't have to request an appropriation from the town manager in order to make that change in the financial order. So that would have to be a vote to request that from the town manager. There would need to be amendments to the orders that have been referred to finance committee and so on. Okay, thank you. And I'm sorry, a quick note. What Pam mentioned about paying more for the second half of the year, that was discussed by finance during the meeting. And so there were really three options discussed and it was the second option that the finance committee voted so that there is a difference Pam between those two things. And I think there was, I have to go back and check my notes, Andy, but I think there was a reason why our finance staff had, there was a problem with paying those different amounts for the different parts of the year. Maybe Kathy knows. Okay, I think we need to find the minutes and also the financial report for this and make sure they're available for next meeting. The finance committee report is in the packet for this meeting, right? Yeah, right. Okay, Kathy. That's what I was trying to address Lynn that we did discuss this, the issue with Pam and I think this is on the table for us to make decisions as a council, but if we tried to increase for that next six months an amount that would make the 12 month calendar year equal 10, then the next time you have to decrease the amount that's in the budget for the council. So you have this very bizarre way of funding the council in terms of it goes, it goes up for six months then goes back down, there's a bulge. So this was cleaner for the budget if we were only going to do, if we're doing it for half a year. And I think we need to fix this. I think we could, maybe this is one of the charter fixes we should do, but it's just an awkward piece that a calendar year versus a fiscal year decision. So this was a recommendation to the council from the finance committee. We weren't, we aren't the decision makers, we were the recommenders. Right, and if the council doesn't want or wants to advance a different plan they can do so. Shalini, your hand up. My memories that we wanted to increase it from the beginning of the year, even though it's awkward in terms of a priority, we won the diversity in town council and even though it's not that much of a difference even 10,000 is not enough to really compensate for the time that people put in. But for some people that 5,000 extra makes a huge, huge difference. And I think if you want to invite diverse people on this council, we need to at least do this minimum increase and even if it's uncomfortable, awkward, whatever I believe, I would support what we had intended. At least that was my recollection that we wanted it from the beginning of the year. So I would support that increase. Pat, you have your hand up. I'm listening to Shalini and I realize that the increase can be helpful to people but I also feel like the council is what the council is now, we had an election. And I feel like waiting for FY25 to make this a clean and efficient transition makes sense to me because that's what will affect the new council or people coming in after this election cycle. And yes, there are people on the council who could use that money now but I think I don't see the point of doubling it up and then undoing it and things like that. I really don't. Are there any other questions or comments? Can I just clarify that? Yes. My understanding was when we agreed and because that was before the elections that the people sort of who were running, I'm not saying they would have changed the decision or anything, but we did sort of make that, didn't we, before? I mean, now we're deciding whether we want to do it from, I mean, that discussion happened after. The discussion that came up with these options, I think happened before we ran for office. Oh yeah, yeah. And we discussed these kinds of options. So I don't think that it's going back on anything or I mean, I didn't support the increase. So maybe that's why I'm having an easier time saying just keep it simple. So I'm not arguing if I'm just trying to clarify. Dorothy. I'm a teacher, we have contracts and when the contracts finally come through we get weird pay, we get make-up pay and this one you're gonna get this percentage. We live with it, we deal with it because it's a raise, okay? It's not weird to pay people unusual amounts when you're doing some kind of catch-up thing to make your year. People are gonna say, I'm not gonna, I don't want this money because this semester I got this and this six months I got something else. I do feel that when people ran for the office and remember I did not run for reelection. That's why I felt free to talk about this issue because it's nothing that I will benefit from but I felt that we made it very clear that we were really intending to do this as a way of encouraging broad group of people to run. So the idea that we're backtracking now, I find strange. We don't have to have beautiful little even paychecks. People like their money when they get it even if it's kind of weird for here and there. I think we should go forward with this raise. Kathy. Just we are going forward with it. So just to put it at its simplest, in the first calendar year, if we continue for the first six month as is, then we bump it up, the person will get $7,500. In the second calendar year of their term, they will get $10,000. It's this first six months. And Dorothy, it's not so much that you get a contract with a makeup pay. It's what it does to the whole town budget when we just saw that we're limited to 3% and it's a 12% increase in health insurance. We're gonna be in such a tough budget year this year we're looking at. So we're also thinking of let's not increase the pain with an even bigger bump up for the counselor. So it is a bump up. So I just wanna say it's not that we're not going to 10. It's just the first year, it's 7,500. In the second year, it's 10. Because instead of bumping it up as Pam did with a makeup in the second six months. So at the end of, and it's weird for income taxes, by the way, so in any case, but I just wanted to say it's not that we're not honoring the increase. It's the way the increase is being paid out. Alicia. Thank you, Lynn. So I'm wondering how actually inconvenient it would be to have to redo the portions just because so going off of the way, I think Pam Rooney was saying that she was understanding the motion to be in terms of like the increase during, when we get to fiscal year FY25 budgeting process to have that be a higher number. And then for the next budgeting cycle to have that go down, is that actually inconvenient since we have to go through the entire budget process anyways. So it's not like adding additional steps. It's just changing the numbers in the process that we're already going through. And so I'm wondering if that does actually pose some kind of inconvenience to have to change those numbers since we'll be changing them anyways. I'm, well, I am extraordinarily used to other financials on a town financial level to how does that work? I would maybe Holly should be here for this. We would appropriate larger sum of money in FY25. And this would be to hold harmless the first six months of the salaries that people otherwise would have made the first six months of year 2025. And then FY26, we would reduce it and would just be annualized at that point in time. We can certainly make the sort of paying the checks out is not a, we would have personal action forms that would adjust the pay of the counselors for six months up and then six months down. The harder thing will probably be about putting aside the additional funds because as you saw in the budget time it's gonna be a little bit tighter, but we can work with whatever the council wants to do on this. Alicia, further comment? Yeah, I just, I still think it's an important initiative in terms of trying to gauge more diversity, equity and inclusion on the council. And I understand that this initiative doesn't directly impact everyone on the council. But I think that, I mean, in most of this I think is something that should be and could be addressed when we do the charter review. But this is just the way in which it's set up for us to do it right now. So it's not like there is another way to increase counselor stipends without going through this weird timing process because that is how it is identified by the charter right now. And so it feels a little bit strange that we're following the exact process that we're supposed to follow but it's still creating these inconveniences within our budgeting cycle. And that maybe that wasn't something that was anticipated when the charter was written. But I think it's important to recognize that strange thing that's happening here. And also to emphasize the importance of this initiative to keep people, diverse people like myself with children and families and single parents to be able to do the job of running for council. And I would argue that this is an important initiative to fund from the beginning of the council. And I know that that's not as easily done as it is said because of again the way that it was set up by the charter. But I do see the importance and the significance in making sure that people can be effective counselors and that people have the time and the opportunity to really dedicate themselves to this work and to do an efficient job and also to do other things in life. So not for everyone is this, you know their major only major responsibility or the only major time commitment. And so juggling all of those things while juggling taking care of a family while juggling trying to do a good job on the council is very time and financially consuming. So I think that was the other part that it's missing is that for people like myself it actually sometimes costs me money to be on the council to be able to get help with my kids that when I need help to be able to do these things to be able to have the time and the luxury to invest myself in reading and going through the materials especially when we're getting them only a few days before the meeting and there's just not a lot of flexibility in terms of actually doing a good thorough job. And so I think that that's a piece that's missing from this conversation is that like it does cost people money to be on the council if you're not fortunate to have those things. Okay, so at this point unless I think this now rests with the finance committee in terms of the financial guidelines is that everybody's understanding? But then then we're going in a circle don't we just have to vote and tell say what we want? Well, I just it went to finance, it came back and now sending it back to finance. We've already voted the increase. It's the issue of when? I understand. So we have no, we don't need a vote. I mean finance will basically say implement, right. There's been an understanding when finance committee made its recommendation the understanding was that it would be incorporated into the budget guidelines unless the council voted something differently. So that's where things are. It's with finance committee in order to incorporate into the budget guidelines. There's no action needed by the council at this time. Finance committee is going to begin budget guidelines and it will be in there. And that's all that needs to happen right now unless someone wants to propose something else. So my statement was exactly that was meant to be that and Kathy, it wasn't to say put it back into debate. Mandage out. I was just going to clarify, Athena did it pretty well. So if the council wants to ensure that the FY25 budget includes enough company, enough council money to compensate counselors for a full year of 10,000 starting July one, then hold on, July one, then that would be in the financial guidelines of increase the council department by $64,000. If the council wants to do what Pam Rooney was sort of talking about, then when the financial guidelines come to the council, the council needs to make sure the financial guidelines say increase the council budget by 94,000 or whatever that is. If the council wants to transfer money from free cash now, the council needs to vote or someone needs to propose a motion now or next week to request that the manager provide a financial order for the transfer from free cash. So if it's anything in the financial guidelines there doesn't have to be a motion tonight, the motions would happen depending on what the financial guidelines come back from in a draft. That's correct. Alicia. Mandy Jo's explanation was helpful, but I'm still trying to sort through. So the town manager will put this in the budget guidelines based off of what the recommendation from the finance committee or just what he feels he should do. Like where is he getting his guidance in terms of what to bring us in the financial guidelines? The finance committee develops the financial guidelines. They bring them to the town council. If the finance committee in the budget guidelines includes the way that the finance committee recommended, then there is always the option during the discussion of the financial guidelines by the council to make an amendment to change what's in the financial guidelines. That's what Kathy, I mean, what Mandy Jo was saying. If the council wants to do something besides that that involves this fiscal year, then it needs to be a motion to the town manager to develop a financial order which moves some of the money from stabilization into the line item for council compensation, I guess. But that like said motion doesn't need to happen right now. That can also happen when we're going over the budget guidelines. It could, yes. Lynn, you would need something on the agenda. You would need to put something in the agenda. We would need to put something on the agenda either for next week or I mean, if you want me to, I can put on for next week, councilor compensation as an item and that could be a time to discuss it or you can wait until the financial guidelines come out and then it is on the agenda, yes, no. We're in a little bit of a situation because we have financial orders that have gone to finance committee. And in order to amend those to make changes, if the council were to request an appropriation for compensation, it wouldn't make sense for finance committee to make a recommendation on those orders if the council wanted to vote something different next Monday. Right. Paul. So I agree. I think if a councilor would like to see the compensation increase starting January one, the council should have a motion before it on Monday. The 20th. On the 20th. Before you vote on the other financial orders. So that would be the way to do it. Okay. Yeah, because those financial orders sort of balance out the budget and we would need to amend one of the financial orders or two to make sure it all evens out again. Got it. Alisha. Can I just request that that be added to the agenda for next council meeting? Thank you. Kathy. The only point I was trying to make is we had this discussion in finance and we came with this recommendation. We've now been discussing it for a considerable length of time. If we want to change the recommendation, it would be good to have clarity on that, i.e. the whole group because we'll put something in we finance, we'll put something in the guidelines and then we'll have the discussion again on December 8th. I am, I don't find it very efficient is a bad word to use, but I find it circular and I think it's because we don't want to vote on it. We've had these same three options in front of us now and they're making everyone uncomfortable. I understand that because it's awkward. So I'm on the finance committee. I can have this conversation again on the finance committee and I can have the final conversation again at the council of how people want to do it or there are 11 of us here. We could say what we want to do now. So that's what I'm grappling with because we've always had, we could take money out of cash and we came back with say, don't do that. Do it this other way. So it's 11 o'clock and we started at six. So for me, this, it would be good to, if we can't end this discussion with a conclusion then I'd rather just end it. Andy? Yeah, a question for Athena and the charter. We have, if it's a supplemental appropriation, then there has to be and it's recommended by the town manager, which is first step then there has to be a forum that covers it. We already have the forum scheduled. What are the complications we're talking about? Yeah, I was just asking Paul about that and we would have to hold the financial orders until we could reschedule the forum if there were a vote to make a request for a different appropriation. Because that would be exactly right. We would have to do the public forum and so on on the new appropriation and then there would be amendments and so on. So we wouldn't be able to do that on November 20th. That's correct. We would have to, okay, let me try to sort through this. If, I'm sorry, maybe Joe, go ahead. I move that the finance committee include in its draft financial guidelines a recommendation to delay, to include implementation of the councilor compensation increase in the FY25 budget. I'm gonna second a number. I'm gonna, can you repeat my motion again, Athena? So I know where to put what I need to add. You moved that the finance committee include in its draft financial guidelines and its recommendation to include implementation of the councilor compensation increase in the FY25 budget. Add an amount of $64,500 for the council budget. 64,000, was there a second? Was there a second? I'll second for the second. That 64 is the correct number for a 10,000 for a 10,000 per councilor for FY25, 5,000 each half year. That's the, yeah, yeah. That would implement option two. That motion would implement option two. So the increase would take effect on July 1st and it would be the increased amount for the second half of the year, not the extra for the second half of the year and back and forth. So it's consistent with the finance committee's recommendation. Thank you. Okay. And that motion's been made and seconded. Alicia. Just a clarifying question. So it would be that for FY24, it would be total compensation, councilor compensation of 7,500, but the second year. So just literally what the finance committee recommended but just putting that into motion. That's what it is, yes. Okay, thank you. Okay, a motion's been made and seconded. Is there any further question or discussion or need for clarification? Let me just say what the motion does is put in motion that this is what will go in the financial guidelines. Therefore, there will be no need to change any of the financial orders or hold a different meeting, a different public forum. Okay. Let's move to a vote on the motion. I'm going to start with Kathy Shane. Yes. I'm sorry. Mandy Jo. I think it starts with me. Pam, I'm sorry, I didn't see your hand. Go ahead, Pam. Aye. Oh, okay, fine. Pam Rooney said aye. Kathy Shane, aye. Andy Steinberg. Aye. Leisha Walker. No. Shalini Balmilne. No. Patty Angelis. Aye. Anna Devlin-Gothier. Aye. Lynn Griesmers and I, Mandy Johannike. Aye. Anika Lopes-Apsin, Miller's-Apsin. Dorothy Pam. I could not follow the motion. So I'll have to abstain. I admit it's very late for me. This is really, remember, it's really midnight. I couldn't, I don't understand at this moment. The motion passes with seven in favor, two opposed, one abstention and three absent. The next item on our agenda is the dissolution of the African-American, the African Heritage Reparations Assembly. And Dorothy, you pulled this from the agenda because you, and I'd like you to speak to that. Okay, well, I didn't really understand what the implications were because I was just, the assembly has made recommendation but that hasn't really been happened yet. So I just wondered what was the rush to dissolve it? There may be another story here that would be interesting to know but I don't know what it is. So it was really just wanting more information. Okay. As we finished up the reparations report, two recommendations were made. One was sent to GOL and one was sent to finance. And the recommendation that was sent to GOL regarding a successor committee is still in discussion and the recommendation to finance is basically will be resolved by the financial order that transfers the $105,000. And that's where it stands. The successor committee that's being recommended or whatever the successor process might be would then deal with the rest of the recommendations and the report is the way I understood it. But Lynn? The charge. Lynn? The charge that, I'm sorry, yes. Okay, Mandy Jo, go ahead. Thank you. So I requested this go on there because when Michelle reported the, as chair reported on the report, she indicated that they were done, the committee was done, but in order to clean everything up, you have to dissolve the committee. So for specifics, the charge itself, the ARAH charge has a term of appointment to quote, upon completion of the report, end quote. And so there's no one on the committee anymore because the report has been completed and submitted. And the charge itself says reports, a final report at completion of the assembly's work. So the assembly's work is complete. They've submitted their final report and each person who was appointed there is actually their term of appointment has finished by what the charge says. So since we formed the committee to clean everything up and be clear on everything, we have to dissolve the committee, but by their charge, they have no other work to complete. Dorothy, does that help? Yes, it does. Thank you. I wanted to have some background on that, so I appreciate that. And we wanted to make sure that the motion, the way it reads, is to thank the American Heritage Reparation Assembly members for their work and dissolve the African Heritage Reparations Assembly, I said it wrong earlier. And so I'm making that motion, I'm seeking a second. Second, Devon got there. Okay, are there any other questions or comments? Then we'll take a vote on that and we begin this with Pathy Shane. Yes. Andy Steinberg. All right. Alicia Walker. Yes. Shalini Balmillan. Yes. Pat DeAngelis. All right. Anna Devon-Gothier. All right. And then Grace Merson. I mean, did you hand a key? All right. Dorothy Pam. Yes. And Pam Rooney. Yes. It is unanimous with three councillors absent. We are finished with the motions and we are now at the, we have no appointments. Do we have any reports from CRC? I apologize. I'm actually going to give one tonight. There were motions on here and I just wanted to update the council on what's going on with a ZBA vacancy, just so everyone can hear that. The bulletin board notice has been posted. Emails out in accordance with the policy to all current associate members and all people who have filed CAFs within the last two years from the date of the bulletin board notice have gone out. We all have access to the emails if CAFs were filed, which means you all know, if you think about it, that no CAFs have been filed since the bulletin board notice went out. There is one full vacancy and one associate member vacancy to fill and the ZBA will be doing a whole lot of special permit, major special permit applications starting now, but including through the next six months. So please get out there and recruit members or applicants to apply for ZBA membership. Elementary, that's my report. Thank you, Mandy Jo. Elementary School Building Committee, Kathy and Alicia. Kathy? Our next meeting is December 8th. We're approaching the 75% construction paper. Their meeting started to be set up with the planning board and CONCOM comes first, Conservation Committee. So we are on the road, hopefully, to go out with the first package in the early spring, which is the site preparation. So there's not a lot. The meetings now are getting shorter because the content of them is reviewing smaller design changes. We're at the point of talking about what the color of the floor might be, what the guidelines are exactly. We've seen those pretty pictures of the outside of the building, but will it be orange or green? And so we will be making those decisions, but we no longer have to decide where you park and where the buses come in and out. And someone has to fix the external roads for us. I think those intersections are not, they're gonna be our problem as a school, but they're not our problem as a design. Let me just say, Pat, D'Angelsson, I second that because having stood at Fort River on the day of the election, you're taking your life in your hands at five o'clock at night. From actually three to five, it is brutal. And then Paul drove up and said, boy, this traffic is pretty bad. It's worse because ever source hasn't finished their work yet. I was waiting for that one. Alicia, do you have anything else you wanted to add to the elementary school building committee? No, thank you. Okay, sorry about the little digression. Finance committee, Andy. Yeah, just to re-emphasize, so it's said before there's two meetings that are posted for, or will be posted for this, we wouldn't, it's already posted for tomorrow. And they're gonna have essentially identical agendas because they're five items that are urgent for the committee to work on, which is why we're meeting twice in a week. And we wanted to have the ability to talk about any of them in each of the meetings. So the Jones library, building project bond authorization, which was discussed earlier, the supplemental budget appropriations requests, which is referred to the committee tonight, the rental registration fee structure, which we've been discussing at prior meetings, and they're gonna continue our discussion on during one of these next two meetings, the AHRA, the reparations report section three that was referred to the committee and the budget guidelines. So that's with those five very substantial items, that's why we're having two meetings. And you think this meeting went on long, wait, you come to finance and we're still there on Friday night. GOL, Pat. Our next meeting is this Wednesday at 9.30. I will be giving a full report for at the next council meeting. Thank you. Is there anything about the Jones library building? No, we've all had enough of that tonight. TSO, Anika, I know, Anika's gonna do this. We will be prepping our carryover menu, also a memo on Thursday. And so we've got a lot of really, really thrilling stuff for the next council that will be. And then I believe we're also getting an update on Wasteholler at some point as well. Okay. Any liaison reports? Seeing none. Town manager, Paul. Real quick, there was a suggestion that the finance committee meeting on Friday be meeting with the council. And you said that that would be discussed later this evening. Yes. And so, Andy, first of all, are you willing to have it be a committee as a whole? Yes, I think that's a decision that you and I should make with the council or you should make as president. We've done committees as a whole whenever there's a feeling that there's gonna be more people in the audience who wish to participate in the council that trigger the fact that we then have a forum of the council. Right. That's why we're doing this to cover that possibility. Let's post it as that and then we'll see other counselors when I show up. Okay. And if they don't, we just have a regular finance committee. Thank you. Paul. So you have my written report. We can talk more about it next week, your meeting on Monday. It's pretty late tonight. Because we're gonna have so much more time next week. Thank you. All right. I have no other comments. Are there any councilor comments? Alicia. Sorry, I just had a quick question for Paul. I know that you said you're planning to present to us like another plan for the ARPA funding in sometime, hopefully in December, but I'm wondering if there has been any consideration around whether or not we might be able to have the BBAA assist us in distributing some of the ARPA funds or in that decision-making process? We have that as one of the things that we're looking at in terms of the, we sort of added everything that people have requested into the list and that's the things that the staff are looking through right now. Thank you. Name to Joe. Yeah. I wanna congratulate everyone who ran and won, both at council and non-council, but also thank everyone who ran even if they were not successful and did not prevail in their election. But I also, that leads into what I actually am announcing which is everyone should have seen if you're a councillor. I think everyone's on the MMA mailing list. There is a new councillor, a Massachusetts Municipal Councilor's Association, the MMCA part of the MMA councillor training for new councillors on December 9th, 9 a.m. to 3 p.m. And so you don't have to be a new councillor to go and it is free according to the notice I got today. And so if you're a councillor that was just elected and not on the council right now, make note of those dates but also for anyone here, make note if you're interested, it's in person in Devans. It's incredibly helpful. Yeah, I remember a group went last time and really thought it was terrific. All right, anything else? Mandy, Joe, you still have your hand up. The meeting is adjourned at 1121.