 This is Starbastore Front. The prevalence of gluten-free food options is no accident. Manufacturers saw that there was a sizable portion of the population who wanted foods that wouldn't wreak havoc on their digestive systems, and they responded. To a lesser extent, the same is true for foods catering to the lactose intolerance among us, but the latter hasn't quite reached the level of the former. There are all sorts of statistics that contradict each other on how many Americans are actually affected by lactose intolerance, but the gist is the same. It's a sizable portion of the population. Our guest today is Katie Flannery, co-founder of Becken Ice Cream. As someone who suffers from lactose intolerance, she knows firsthand how frustrating it can be to crave a food you know would not be in your best interest to eat. So she and her co-founder Gwen created an ice cream that seemingly does the impossible. It's full of dairy, but without the problematic lactose. So listen in as we cover everything from how she kept a photo of Tom Brady from his time at the NFL Combine on her desk to inspire her, the importance of knowing when to kick in a door versus finding another one, why they were told to bring on a male co-founder when they started to raise capital, and why they ignored that advice. Now, on to the episode. All right, welcome to the podcast on today's show. We're talking to Katie, fellow Bostonian from Becken. Thanks for coming on. Thanks for having me. For people who don't know, what is Becken? Becken is premium ice cream that's lactose-free, tastes exactly like traditional premium ice cream that you've grown up knowing and loving without the lactose. And what made you want to start it? The obvious, we all have, I'm actually, I call it a lactard. Yeah. Are we all lactards together? Yeah. I am very lactose intolerant, and being from Boston, ice cream is a huge part of, I don't know, like the culture going out in the summer, right? So in my family, growing up, we always had ice cream after dinner. And if you said you didn't want ice cream, the next question was, are you feeling okay? So eventually as I got older, I started to realize that what I loved so much actually was making me not feel okay. And got to a point where I couldn't cheat anymore, I couldn't pretend like I could have it, and really missed traditional premium ice cream. What I found as a consumer is that the options on the market at the time were either super stigmatizing, medicinal, like economy, chock full of ingredients that I really wasn't looking for, or the dairy-free alternatives, which as far as they've come, have a different taste and textual profile. And whether it was just for me to indulge or to indulge with others, it was always viewed as an alternative. So I went to college to become a nurse, had a health science background, and with my friend Gwen used that background to create back-ends recipes, which the whole goal of it was not only that it was selfish at first, like I wanted traditional, exactly, I wanted ice cream that I could have and that again, but that everybody else would want to enjoy it with me. So that is why we started back in. It's our mission today, and we're trying to solve that problem for as many people as possible. When you first started, so I can imagine like, all right, let's try to make a lactose-free ice cream, and now there's, okay, what are the products at the time, right? And so there's every other alternative, not milk, none of them are that good, but maybe like there's different binders and gums that are required to make a good ice cream. And so what was the journey in like experimenting with all these different milks? So I actually was listening to one of your podcasts. I think it was about biodynamics. It was one of your recent episodes where they said that they were the experiment, and they put themselves through all of that. That was me. But so at the time, I was in college when I first started this like journey process of figuring out what foods made the most sense for my body. And in addition to lactose just not working for me, I also found out that like highly processed foods, things that had a lot of gums and stabilizers made me feel equally as sick. So I felt like I was trading one problem for another. And so at the time it was brands that were really made with like soy rice or the super stigmatizing medicinal brands. And so after I graduated college, just went to my kitchen to start tinkering and playing with our recipes and really focused on fresh milk and cream, lactose free, and then trying to figure out how to make it taste and melt like a traditional premium ice cream without using gum stabilizers or additives. And so through experimentation, trial and error, I used to carry around these like little mole skins that I called my think tanks and kind of ran it like a science experiment. I have a few of those in my backpack. Yeah. Exactly. I love them. And I would just like write down like, okay, what, how could I alter the recipe to be able to get it there? And so those are the recipes now that we have patented in that. So do you make your own thing? It's your own patented milk alternative. So we have a patented like mix and process for how we're able to really get that taste and textural experience of a traditional premium ice cream. But we work with partners in the industry who produce the ice cream for us. Wow. So it's not like an almond milk or anything like that? No. It's its own thing. Fresh milk and cream. So we source it from farms all over the country. And so that's the biggest thing. Like if even reading the label, it's so clean. It's milk, cream, egg yolks, sugar and lactase and whatever flavoring that we're putting in. So for our vanilla, it's a double fold Madagascar bourbon vanilla. We're using really high quality ingredients. I want some. I want some. I know. We're going to get some. For breakfast. Yeah. So lactase is the enzyme that breaks down the lactose, right? So what does that do chemically? Like you talked about every other company that you've tried didn't really work out. It didn't taste good. Is it the lactase that does something chemically to the ice cream that you have to compensate for? Exactly. So for people who are lactose intolerant, we can't produce enough or any of what's called the lactase enzyme. And so if you think about enzymes, they're like little Pac-Man's in your body. And so they're like going in and breaking down whatever food that they are responsible for. I know, right? Well, I don't have any of them. Thank you. But if I did, they'd be, they'd be quite busy because I love dairy and ice cream. But anyway, so lactose is what's called a disaccharide, which is two sugars bound together by a molecular bond. And so black taste is supposed to break that up into the single sugars, which is how we can digest it. So for people who are lactose intolerant, their body sees that double sugar as like, whoa, what is this? What are you? We can't get rid of you. And so that's why you don't feel well. And so we add in that lactase enzyme, which breaks up everything before. So there's literally no difference from a taste perspective or a chemical perspective per se, other than the fact that it is lactose free. But now we have single sugars floating around everywhere. And it's easier for us to digest. So even if you're not lactose intolerant, it's less work on your body to have to not digest this, right? And so the way that single sugars versus double sugars, I'm just going to call them that freeze is different. And so that's why we have that mix and process to be able to get the freezing properties to be the same. So that, that ice cream that you have is exactly what it is. When you're going to indulge, you don't want to be disappointed, right? Like ice cream, we're not solving the world's problems. Like ice cream is meant to be fun and it's meant to be a joyous moment in your day, whether it's just for you or to bond with somebody else and enjoy with others. And so we don't want anybody to ever be dissatisfied when they're taking that moment. When it came to like branding, or I guess, I guess just getting out there. And so you have a couple of decisions to make and you said something. So one, you're solving your problem, which is going after, let's call it the lactose free category. I don't know how big that category is, but let's just leave that there. And then you have the other part of it where you're saying you're not doing the alternatives, which is pretty, I would say probably a bigger market in today's world or there's more awareness in that. And so, but you kind of directly have to decide. So how did you make that decision? It's also a time thing where depending on the year you launch, it changes everything. Absolutely. Like tailwinds and trends are everything. And so it's a double-edged sword, right? So 25% of the population are lactose intolerant. 25%. 25%. That's massive. But do they like to admit it? Which is the problem, right? Okay. If you're out there, tell me if you want to admit it. We're trying to find you. Is that world over or is it just the U.S.? Because I know like some of the... That's the United States. Yeah. I know some other countries like they don't have the same problems we do and it could be from any number of things that we've been feeding ourselves over the past couple of decades. Yeah. So it's genetic, right? So the ability to digest lactose through your lifespan is a genetic mutation for civilizations that had to have... You know, we used to have to eat what was right around us. We couldn't chip strawberries year round to Boston before. A lot of Latinos and Russians, because I was lactose intolerant, I went to the doctor and they're like, yeah, Latinos and Russians. And I was like, what is the similarity of those two people? I'm like, I'm from Peru. We... It's a different... We're not like Latinos from everywhere, but I'm like the Russian thing. Like I couldn't find a similarity. Just a Russian away. It was weird. I was like, what is happening? Yeah. And Asian populations have a really high prevalence because these are civilizations that historically did not need to rely on dairy as a primary source of nutrition and so didn't develop the mutation. But we now in the 21st century and 2022, it's pretty ubiquitous that people love ice cream. Is it growing? The people with the lactose... The lactose intolerance. Lactose intolerance. I'm just like trying to put together your pitch deck in my head. So it's like, if I'm an investor, am I going... Am I going in the lactose category? It's growing huge. Or like, you know what I mean? People are getting bloated like crazy. Exactly. So there's a couple of different macro factors that are happening. So one 25% of the population, that's essentially an untapped market right now. That's three times greater than the gluten intolerant population. Is it really? Yes. Oh, wow. Which is really big opportunity. Yeah, it's huge. And with gut health trends, people starting to, especially like after the last couple of years, people are starting to take more ownership on what makes me feel good. Like what does health and wellness mean to me? And then gut health in particular, people are starting to become more educated. And so with education, usually comes self-awareness and making more informed decisions about what it is that we're putting into our bodies. And so again, to that pro con of in terms of fad based diets and those trends, how do you market the product? Our vision for Beckin is to be here for 100 years, right? This is a problem that's not going to go away, right? This is a genetic thing. People love ice cream. I don't see people stopping loving ice cream anytime while we have the pleasure of being on this earth. And so we are not tied to a fad based diet. We're tied to a true need. So from a branding perspective, to go back to your initial question, it was really hard and it still is. So also if anybody has any suggestions, please feel free to email me, Katie at BeckinIceCream.com. But the center of our bullseye and like our target customer is lactose intolerant consumer, but also to their friends and family, right? So what we have found through our customers and from a branding perspective, this is a learning. This is not something that necessarily, this was a hope and a dream, but it's not something that we were like, oh yeah, as soon as we do this, like check the box, like all this will work and all these dominoes will fall. But as soon as our product, because it tastes so good, makes its way into the home instead of like this kid gets to have Beckin because they're lactose intolerant and then this kid gets to have whatever other ice cream. What we found in the inbound emails that we get from our customers is that we become the household option. And so that inherently starts to create those rings around it and then gut health and people who are really interested in that clean label. Clean label is like the next biggest thing that we really make sure that our customers understand. What does that mean? The clean label? Clean label, if you turn to the back of the ice cream label, you'll often find words like carrageenan or guire gum or xanthum gum. Those are bulking agents that are in the product to help give it like that body. But those are things that typically when we talk to registered dietitians and GI professionals can lead to... IVS. Exactly. The discomfort that like I was experiencing. And so our product, we don't use, we don't use anything like that. Do you use the egg yolks to get that body instead? We do. Okay. And we do use tapioca syrup which is the same thing, tapioca solids which is the same thing as cassava flour. I'm sure you've heard of that. We use that as well to sort of help us get that body, but without having it be a stabilizer or like a preservative or an additive or anything like that. So we work really hard on the sourcing side to make sure that again, once our customers find us, they've probably been through not a great experience at some point. And so we want to make sure that by the time they find our product, hopefully it doesn't take them too long, but that they are having a great experience. While we're on branding, you initially named the company Minus the Moo. I know. Yes. What was that path like? Great band name, by the way. It could be that good band, right? Yeah. Totally. Minus the Bear. There's a lot of opportunities with costuming and everything like that. But what made you shift from Minus the Moo to Beckin? Okay. My co-founder Gwen is in here and I wish that she was. So again, this is my like formal public apology to Gwen. So before Gwen and I had started this, this ice cream for myself, we started it a couple years after we had graduated college. And so I had just been tinkering around in my think tanks. I have no marketing background. No one would ever want me to touch any marketing. And so I was just calling it Minus the Moo. I thought it was catchy. It was fun. But it was like completely the wrong name because it confused customers. They thought that it was dairy-free. Now at the time, there weren't as many dairy-free options like Rice Stream and So Delicious were the biggest options on the market at the time. But then soon right after, you know, trends can come in your favor or they can not come in your favor. Like the whole plant-based movement started to hit right after. And so customers were expecting it possibly to be dairy-free. And so we went back and forth and we had already started in a couple whole foods and independent markets around Boston and renaming your kid once you feel like they're already in kindergarten. Now in hindsight, like they were barely in preschool. Maybe they were in daycare or something, but it felt really scary. But Gwen had this instinct that it was the right decision to change the name. And so we went through that process and worked with a great company out in Boulder to really help us like, okay, who are we going to be next? You only really get one shot to rebrand. And so working with them interact out in Boulder. They're great if anybody needs any recommendations. But we went through what is the origin story? Why are we here? What is it that we are looking to bring to the world? And so what we had been hearing from our customers was that they had felt left out of the ice cream category. They had felt left out of you were talking about your dinner table. They had felt left out of those experiences. And so Beckin is their callback to real ice cream. And it's more of a calling to like, whatever it is that you want, don't let anything slip by. So that's how we landed on Beckin. And hopefully everybody likes it. And it's been in the market since 2018. Do you feel more pressure today to move into like a dairy-free category because of what's happening or like this plant-centric world that everyone's so happy to move into? I don't. I think it's... So your category is big enough? I feel like our category, I mean, I'm certain our category is big enough. I'm certain that our customer need is big enough. I think that the other thing about entrepreneurship you guys can relate to this, it's really hard to get up every day and deal with whatever it is that's coming down the pipeline. And so I believe, and Gwen believes in this product. We believe in what it is that we're bringing into the market. And I have to stick to my gut, you know, metaphorically and physically. Pun intended. Pun intended. And again, my journey and just from what we've learned from our customers after being in business about there's not a one-size-fits-all solution for anything in life and so there's not going to be a one-size-fits-all trend or product. And so if our product doesn't exist then what happens to all these customers like me, that plant-based option just really isn't going to satisfy them or work for them. Yeah, well said. When you first came out, what were your flavors? So you work in the lab probably forever and then you go, okay, cool, we're ready. How many different flavors did you have? What was your favorite? Oh, this is a fun one. Okay, so when we were at the farmers market, which market, by the way, which market is this? SOA. SOA. The SOA market. I had a bow tie company. We'd go... Two SOA alums right here at the table. Two SOA alums. Can you believe it? It was a great company. People who don't know, SOA is an amazing marketplace that happens I think every Sunday morning. Yes, Sunday. Every Sunday morning and there's a dictator there that will basically, if you're late, tells you you have to leave immediately or will sell your spot and it's a bunch of vendors that rain or shine come out and sell whatever it is. So candles, ice cream, we were selling bow ties and now it's like there's food options and stuff but it's basically like the Melrose Farmers Market here in L.A. I don't know about you but I still can't go to a farmers market. My stomach like turns. It's all the pressure. It's the setup. It's the setup. All the pressure and just... Yeah, just wondering are people going to like what it is that you worked so hard? I had a two door car. This is so crazy. Yeah. We would put a 10 by 10 tent inside of it. Yeah. Oh yeah, yeah. Oh my God. Sideways or like, did you have a trunk? Straight down the middle. Yeah. I think it was straight down the middle but basically it was like there was two grown men in this vehicle me and my co-founder and we were just stuffed with stuff and it was so embarrassing all the time and people were like how does that anything fit in there? I'm like, we just make it work. Yeah. And we did it for, I want to say like years but it was very profitable. It is great. It's a great way to start. Unless it rained. Oh. Yeah. Yeah, which is the thing. And then you're like should I go? Should I not go? And then like you can't miss my... Yeah, it's a whole thing but... We started at SOA. We started at SOA and Gwen also, she's a beast. She was living in New York at the time and there's nothing wrong with the megabus but I mean, she took the megabus after work. I'm not like trying to... Free wifi. Yeah, right? On the megabus. She took like the megabus every Friday night would get into my place at like two in the morning she stayed in my apartment with me. This is real hustle. This is the real, this is the reality of starting fresh. Yeah, this is like the things that when you're, people are like it's gonna be hard and you're like, and then we would get up, we would work all day, Saturday morning in the kitchen. My mom and I would like pre-make the mix earlier in the week and we both had full-time jobs and then we'd make the mix in the ice cream all day and our flavors at the time were vanilla, mint chip, we had a chocolate, espresso, a lot of the flavors that like we still have today, we tried to make sure, I had been to the Penn State ice cream short course so we tried to make sure that whatever we were making it was scalable. Like whether it was just in our... What's the Penn State short course? Yeah, the Penn State ice cream short course. What is that? So it is an ice cream course that they host every year. Ben and Jerry went to it. When you say course, like a... It's a collegiate course or something like that. I hear Penn State and I'm just like... Yeah, it's like a... I'm thinking of the right one, right? Yeah, you're thinking of like the Penn State, Nittany Lions, I think is what it is, but yeah. So I went there to like learn about ice cream and again like Ben and Jerry went there, everybody in ice cream goes. Like Unilever sends like 30 people every year. It's just, it's an awesome course. But from inception, we were able to see, okay, from my little batch freezer, which her name was Humble, to a massive plant like we're in now, what's the order of operations here? How is this going to run so that we didn't like get this flavor that everybody loved that we couldn't replicate? And then a lot of our flavors at the beginning were mistakes that I had made. So one of my favorite flavors and one of our best selling flavors is our sea salt chocolate chip. And so spoiler alert, that was not intentional. It was our first weekend in the kitchen. Gwen and I had like dumped our bank accounts out to be able to get this started. You know, we were up to our eyeballs and credit cards and thank God, so it is profitable at the time because that's really how we fueled the business in the beginning. But someone was like, you should add a little bit more salt. And so I had no idea what I was doing, added too much salt, ruined what I thought was ruined the mix. I was, back then, my skin was a lot thinner. And so I like, I actually cried. And so I was like, oh, this money on the line. It was like 15 gallons. I had no idea. I thought it was so big. That's a lot at the time, yeah. It was a lot at the time, right? Really, yeah. And so I went for a walk and I was like, can't trash it. And so I was like, what are we going to do? And so I came back and I was like, well, we're going to throw chocolate chips in it. We're going to call it sea salt chocolate chip. People love sea salt and chocolate. We'll want off it. My apologies to you and yours. Love the pivot. We'll just never see it again. It is what it is. It was the, from that day it sold out completely. And we have, it's been like one of our best sellers since. So every time I'm having a moment where I'm like, oh my God, what am I going to do? I kind of think about that. It's like, just kind of keep moving. What can I accidentally tip into this batch? Exactly. Yeah. We had a couple of those. We had like a chocolate coconut because I tipped coconut into it. Yeah. There was a couple of those. But our flavors right now are vanilla or sea salt chocolate chip. We have a mint chip, a peanut butter cup, which we are up-cycling. We call it cup-cycling. Peanut butter cups that would have been scrap. So we're trying to help also prevent food waste. We have a dark chocolate brownie. And where was I in my list? We just did a candy cane brownie, which was a seasonal flavor. We have a cookies and sweet cream and then a cookie dough. And then we do have a summer seasonal coming out. I noticed that on your website, your entire team has their favorite flavors and most of your team loves the brownie flavor. There has been a battle royale over the brownie versus the peanut butter cup. Yeah. Because I head up our sales and so the team wants to see the brownie be expanded further. So yeah, there's a big competition. Notting her head, notting her head back. Yeah, she has a D behind me. She's like, yeah. Her and Gwen are very much team, dark chocolate brownie, which I love, but I'm team peanut butter cup. So yeah. There's also something else on your website that I wanted to bring up. Yeah. And I love that you just lean into the whole I'm lactose intolerant. And this is an ice cream for other people who are lactose intolerant. And the very first thing I saw on your website was stop shitting yourself or something along those lines. That's brilliant. It really was like surprising because when I go on any other ice cream company's website, that's not what I'm seeing. Is it a woman on a toilet eating some ice cream with the caption, stop shitting yourself. Yeah. So okay, here's the thing. Gwen has always talked about since we started. Like I do have a lot of self-deprecating humor. I mean, I don't know if it's like a Boston thing. Yeah, right? And so just in college, like anytime I got sick, I just leaned into it, right? And so when we were talking to other lactose intolerant consumers, it's interesting, like how quickly they'll let their guard down and tell you things like that. And so that was a voice that we haven't really, we hadn't really been able to garner and capture until Adi and Carly and our team were really able to put it together in a way that it resonates for how people are like actually talking about it, right? It's like, why hide it? It is what it is. Just in the whole stop shitting yourself thing. Oops, sorry. Sorry, mom. I didn't mean to swear on a podcast. So I'll get a phone call about that later. But it's also too about like, just like stop pretending like what you need isn't what you need. It's kind of like back in, right? It's at face value. It's we're calling you back to ice cream, but in the larger scheme of it, it's like why are you spending any minute of your precious time? Who knows how much you're going to get doing something that doesn't make you feel great. And like that doesn't mean that we can be self-indulgent all the time, but the whole campaign is really about stop pretending like this isn't a problem for you. Let's solve it and let's make sure that like if you go on a date, like you don't have to worry about not feeling great after. I almost like my husband and I have been together for 10 years now. I almost didn't go on the first date with him because he wanted to, we were in college. It was the very end of school and it was like during finals or something, our senior year. And he was like, do you want to come over and make dinner? But all he really knew how to make was like grilled cheese and I didn't want to tell him like, oh, honey, no, I cannot have grilled cheese on a first date. But then my friends were like, just tell him. And so then he bought lactose free cheese for me, which is just cheddar cheese is lactose free. Like that's all I had to say was, yeah, I can have it with the cheddar cheese, thanks. Do you ever think about shipping a toilet roll, like a toilet paper roll with your ice cream saying, today you saved a tree, like an entire tree. Okay, look at the carbon footprint that, well, okay, I don't want to get into that because I know that. That shitting yourself leads to. Yeah, yeah. We're saving the planet, guys. I think let's take it, let's go a little bolder. We're creating less methane gas. It's great. Well, I know like with... You could even put it in the tub of ice cream. Oh, how kind of like a perfect... Yeah. This is a new thing. With Darian's ice cream? Take a roll of toilet paper. Yeah. Put it in the ice cream tin. Right. But then you have... Call the flavor, stop shitting yourself. And ship it with the ice cream. This is like the stickiest marketing. Think about that. It'd be great. You would shit yourself in laughter if anything. You'd be like, this is incredible. Yeah. I don't want anybody to think that we don't, you know, know that dairy farming can produce methane gas. I don't want anybody to think that I'm claiming that that doesn't happen. But, you know, everything in life is a balance. So if we can eliminate, you know, how much toilet paper we're producing or something. Yeah. Every little bit helps. That's the trade-off, right? Yeah. When it comes to fundraising, did you raise capital? We have. Okay. Recently? Or like a seed round? Yeah. So we started off again because we went through that rebrand that was kind of costly. So because we were already in the market, which I, and we were working with distributors at the time, I really wouldn't wish having to change a brand name and recode a product on my worst enemy. Our partners were amazing through the process, but it was quite difficult and again, very, very scary in those early days. But from a fundraising perspective, so we raised a convertible note round in the beginning just to really get us started and fueled food and CPG is so capital intensive, especially in the beginning, raise earthen margins, plus you have the cash flow cycle, we have to build the inventory, then we sell it and ship it, and then we get to collect it. So the APAR cycle and inventory cycle is that triangulation is, it's an off-kilter equation and balance there. So definitely did fundraise and then it helped us to grow our team and get great team members. And then we recently closed our seed round in the middle of 2020, which also from a timing perspective, going out to raise capital, we opened up the round, February of 2020 and everybody knows and can assume that that wasn't the easiest time. So, which was really fun and then also to just females raising capital, we know the stats out there. It was gonna be an uphill battle, it'll be an uphill battle for the next round, just statistically speaking. What were some of the things the investors were most curious about that you would meet with? Was it them trying to move you into different categories? Was it expansion of the line? What was the thing that they didn't understand? Like for me, as an example, I had no idea the lactose category is 3x the gluten-free category. And so that would be an aha moment for me. What was the thing that you kept running into? You realized, oh, the investors really don't understand a couple of these things. What were those things? Yeah, I mean, it always starts with the size of the market. I think surprises people and then the fact that the options for customers, like we are not a Me Too product. We are the premium, real-dairy lactose-free ice cream on the market. And that's something where it sounds so simple, but oftentimes entrepreneurial. It should be that simple. It should be that simple. So I'm more of like a, have you heard of like the term like your sunbird? Like I'm a sunbird entrepreneur. So like I see things in different spaces and like bring them together. So I was like, why is there a great lactose-free yogurt? But there's not great lactose-free ice cream. Like that to me was just like a duh. So I think just people understanding that we are really serving that need. And in terms of just like opportunity, how big is the ice cream market? What's the white space here? What does the trajectory forward? How are we getting there? Why have we chosen the product lines that we chose? So once we really get into that and then who is our customer, you already asked that question. That is a huge question that we get in the beginning. And then as you know as an entrepreneur, who are we? Like who are the captains of the ship? Like what makes Gwen and I the right team to get this done? Obviously we feel strongly that we are. Yeah, you're solving your own problem. Yeah, we're solving our own problem. And then in the really, really early days, we did actually get comments that we should bring on a male co-founder in the very beginning. Why? Because you know, I think there's in terms of the fundraising, less than 3% of venture capital still goes to female founded teams. Less than 2% of female founded businesses ever get to a million in revenue or more. And so when people are deciding to put their, I mean money follows money, right? So when people are deciding to put their money behind a team to make them more money, they want a more sure bet, right? Like how much do we really want to bet what we've probably worked really hard for too. And so that's just been something that's been really eye-opening and interesting. And I mean Gwen and I were, we were in our mid-20s at the time when we started the company. So we were young, had never been entrepreneurs. And it was a little jarring to be like, oh my gosh, someone just like took one look at me and said I wasn't enough. And so through that process, we've also, you know, really found our position to what gets us up every day as well. We need to have more diverse teams and we need to have more diverse leaders. And so it did take me a pause in a second to be like, should we bring on a male co-founder? And then I was like, absolutely effing not. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but I think just for Gwen and I, that's been a huge motivating factor too from a capital perspective. That makes me want to shit myself. Someone told you that. And as a Bostonian too. It's like fuck yourself. Yeah, exactly. Go fuck yourself. That rage, I don't drive a single day without like honking my horn and flipping something up. Of course. That rage is always just like right here. It's right there. And so this actually, the first... Don't act like you know. Hey, my mom is from Boston. I spent a good amount of time there. There you go. We'll get into it. Maryland is much more peaceful. But we were in a pitch once and it was like one of our first pitches and for our seed round, it was really, really early days. And someone said, well, at least you're better to look at than Ben and Jerry when Q and I opened up. And Gwen, I could... I mean, that's, to be fair, they weren't very good looking guys. But like still, I was like, would you have said that to men? And like, and so I could just feel the rage just coming up. And Gwen, my rage wasn't as easy to control back then. I could just feel her hand on the smile on my back. Like, please just don't jump over that table. But yeah, it is what it is. But also too, I think there's been a great like shift and we need to see that momentum continuing to move forward of this like yearning for diversity and understanding that it wasn't there. So that's great. I think representation is part of it. I know for this month, we've featured only female founders. For all of March. For women's histories month. And we obviously, my wife has her own company. And even in construction, like for her... That was good to say. Right. It's like pretty insane. Oh, so your dad gave you this company or like, where's your husband? Does he own this? Do you know what you're doing? Yeah. And she gets those questions. Yeah, all the time. And then I tell them, like if I remember on the site, I do development. So my firm will hire her firm. Yeah. And then she has obviously her own projects. But I'll tell all the men or anyone on the project. I'm like, just so you know, we do construction because this is where we bury the bodies. She'll bury you. Disrespect her. She'll bury you. Yeah. Do you have any advice for female founders? Or like some hacks you do? I'll give you an example. We invested in Good Milk, which is an Almond Milk company. And Brooke, the founder, when she fundraises, she dyes her hair pink. And so that's like fundraising season for her. That's her thing. It's like her cape. And it's just like... When she told me that, I was like, that's really cool. But it's also her way of basically being like, I'm so female and so pink. Yep. I love that she just leans into it. Yeah. It's a journey. I can't say that I found the silver bullet. One, surrounding yourself with the right people is like part of it. The team, you know, Gwen is my ride or die. Our team's amazing. So that's a huge part of it. That's empowering. Our friends and family have just been phenomenal. I also work with an executive coach. So like for if I can't put myself up, I have someone on speed dial ready and able to help me. And so I think that for me though, it was this realization. And just, I think it's more the self-talk. It's like, if you don't believe in me, respectfully get out of my way. Disrespectfully. Disrespectfully get out of my way. I'll bury you. Bury the body. Exactly. It's just like that. Because it's like, look, I'm not going to be everybody's cup of tea. That's fine. Like, and whether that's socially or from a business perspective, it is what it is. But it took me a while to figure out like, I don't need anybody else to tell me that I am enough. And also two women are very performance based. So it's like, okay, I've done these things and this is why I deserve to be here. Yeah, we have all of that behind us, but also too, we have a vision. We have a mission. And I will not stand for anybody stepping in the way of that. And so if you look at me and say, I'm not going to get it done. That's fine. Have your opinion. But I absolutely will. We've already been doing it. And here we go. So I think that's kind of my advice. It's like there's going to be a million and one reasons or people or, I mean, starting your own business, it's really hard. It's awesome. But the days that you have that feel a little bit more like, what am I doing? Like they're there, right? And so you have to be able to very quickly like snap out of it and just say, okay, that was a moment. It's a season, maybe in my day or in a week or whatever. And then just quickly step right back into what it is that you have to get done. Bill Belichick, do your job. Do your job. Do your job. I did have the Tom Brady combine picture on my desk for a really long time. I have to admit that. Tom, I'm a Bostonian. Was this house a buyer of your ice cream? Were you shipping to his house? No, I don't think like they don't eat. They don't really eat sugar. That's true. They make the avocado ice cream thing. Yeah. Tom, if you eat sugar, call me. But I had his call my picture because I was like, look at this guy. Like, I mean, who was the 199th draft pick? Didn't look good. Not sexy. No. Well, exactly. And I'm like, for every day that I felt like I wasn't enough, I was like with hard work and determination, I too can be the ghost. That's what I'm out here doing. That's a great story. Isn't it a great story? I really actually love that. And so, and also too, the self-talk, like he turned to Bob Kraft and he said, like I'm the best decision that this organization has ever made. You know, you have to have people that you look up to too and also to like other founders in the industry and who've been there before it. That's been incredibly helpful for us. I know for me, I've developed, it's almost like this reaction where if I'm talking to someone and they don't understand what I'm saying or they start to pick at things that don't matter. I just go, oh, they're dumb. They don't get it. And it's the best thing when coming, like raising capital or doing any project that I'm gonna do, because it just keeps my emotions so guarded. And so what's happened is I've become really aware of friction. If there's friction, I'm out. And I'm just like, I can pick up on it from a mile away. Yeah. And I'm just out. Your time is valuable. Totally. And also too, your energy. Like you're creating this thing that doesn't exist. So there's so much energy that goes into... Which is the coolest thing about it. It is. But it's like, also it's exhausting, like getting that out into the world and then like sprinkle a little pandemic in there. Not the... Yeah, just a little... Not the easiest... Salt Bay. Yeah, exactly. That's what I'm like. Yeah, not the easiest thing. And so I agree with you. It's like you have to be able to know when it's time to like, okay, that door's not open enough and just kick it open versus say there's another door. And so you do start to learn when those moments are and my co-founder Gwen, she is so tenacious. Like if there's a door that she thinks should be open that's like still locked, holy smokes, I've never met anybody who will bang against it as hard as she does. I'm like, wait, do you want to find the other door? What's next on the agenda for you guys? So is it more stores, more distribution? Yeah, we have massive launches that are hopefully boarding the truck. As we speak, I got a text while we were at Expo yesterday about the orders and the trucks being booked. So we haven't announced it yet. So we are going to be launching with Kroger all across the country. So you'll be able to find four of our flavors in stores across the country. It'll be on shelf at the very end of March, beginning of April, and then we'll also be found in some wallmarks across the country as well. So congratulations. That's huge. Thank you. We're really excited. You can always still find us nationwide in Whole Foods. We have our pints, our snack cups, and snack packs, as well as our quarts in Whole Foods. And then in Sprouts, we have our quarts as well. And if you can't find us in a store near you, we're on beckandicecream.com. Where people I heard get free toilet paper. Oh yeah. She's going to work that one out for us. I almost want to fund it. I almost want to give you like a thousand dollars to buy toilet paper and just do it. We're about to be opening up around. So I do have this really great opportunity for you if you're interested. We do invest sometimes. Yeah. There's a company at Expo West, at Orobora. We invested and then they came on the podcast like three weeks ago. Exciting. Oh wait, I've talked to them. To Paul? Yeah. I've talked to them. They reached out about, it was like an operational question that they had. So I love their packaging. He'll call himself like a humble idiot, I guess. But like he's dumb enough to try anything and smart enough to ask for help every step of the way. So coming from healthcare. It's been one of my favorite things about this industry. In the very beginning, we had obviously no idea what we were doing. So we would just walk the aisles of Whole Foods and be like, I like their brand. I like their like ingredients. I like they're just like general packaging. We would email or call or see if we could get a meeting with somebody and at the beginning, nine times out of 10, it was the founders. And they would take like 30 minutes or an hour of their time for someone who didn't even have a product yet. And so it's been really interesting to see how willing people are to be able to share their knowledge and share their experience. So that's something that we have also taken, again, if anybody out there has any questions, like we want to pay it forward because it's something that's really amazing about this industry is how willing people are to just provide help and support. CPG is super tough. And so for anybody trying to get their product out to market, it's really great to be able to say, I need to learn from someone who's been there before. And so we too, all the time, like if we don't know an answer, we have zero shame. We will email or DM anybody, like no shame in our game. So is your position today basically you're launching all these stores and then assuming the velocities are there, you'll just raise your A round. Is that the that's the logical next step? That is. And also too, for our vision, we are really hoping to continue to expand and make sure that the right products for the lactose intolerant consumer are available. We have a ton of... What does that mean? Well, we have a ton of flavor requests and formats. So right now, you're mostly going to find our pints. And so our snack cups and snack packs, people love them. And so that's something that we would love to be able to bring to more customers. It allows for that permissible indulgence. They're just really fun. So just making sure that we're not just expanding doors, but we're deepening the products that we have in those doors to make sure that that customer, once they found us, we want to make sure that we're meeting whatever needs that they have. What state has your best sales? Is it Massachusetts? State? Yeah. This is a really tough question. Is it Indiana? Yeah. Massachusetts actually would be number one. Yeah. Do you find... I don't know if it's truly to ask you this, but do you find that when it comes to fundraising, the East Coast, they get it? Or do you find the West Coast gets it more? So this is a really interesting question. I'd be curious to see what you feel as an investor. I think it depends on how much you're raising. And so how much you're raising and what the style of your round is, whether or not it's a convert or, I mean, if it's a safe, that's become more prevalent. I feel like across the country, but in the couple years ago, it was mostly West Coast. And then... As a Y Combinator, Jim. Exactly. Yeah. YC Safe. Exactly. And so for the price rounds, like depending on how much you're raising, it's going to dictate the kind of investors and the profile of the investor that you're going after. Are they more industry agnostic? Are they more of an individual angel? Are they part of an angel group? Or are they part of a VC firm? What does that look like? And then I think that the size of the round and your industry dictates a little bit more whether or not geography is going to be a factor. And so in the earlier days, geography is so much... I felt like it was a huge factor. Now, not so much. Where do you see this all going? Like what's the... What would you look back on and be like, this was a cool ride. This was a cool journey. I'm terrible about that. This is something that... I'm always looking forward. Like even for where we've been, I don't really ever look back. And you know who you were saying? Like guarding your feelings. Yeah. Like I don't ride the highs because I don't want to ride the lows. Same. So which is also... It's a problem. It's a problem. Yeah. And so to all the... You got to celebrate the wins. Exactly. All the entrepreneurs out there, even if it's like a small win, let yourself indulge in it if it's just for a minute because... Have some ice cream. Exactly. That'll maybe fuel you for the next down. And so Gwen and I always talk about this. Like whenever there's a down, there's an up. Whenever there's an up, there's going to be a down. But we know it's just going to keep cycling. And so how do I view success? It all goes back to the beginning. Like for me, whatever happens to beckon, I just hope that it continues to exist to make sure that someone like me walking the aisles of the grocery store with a very simple need is able to have that need met. And so that for me, every time we launch in a new door, I will say it like is kind of emotional to think that there might be someone out there that who knows like how much they actually really want this or need this, but like the fact that it's going to be there for them and if they have like a great experience, that will be for me like the most rewarding today than in the future. So just doing whatever Gwen and I can to make sure that beckon is still standing for that is all I really want. I love it. Where can everyone find you? Everywhere. Kroger. Whole food. You mentioned all the stores. Sprouts. beckonicecream.com and also to you, we have a ton of great independent partners, independent markets throughout the country. And if there is a store near you that you really want to see us in, please DM us at beckonicecream and then we also have a request form on our website beckonicecream.com. Love it. Thank you. Thanks for coming. Thank you. This is fun. I'm going to go get coffee. That was our conversation with Katie Flannery of beckonicecream. Since you're still here, please consider subscribing if you're not already or even better, leave us a review on Apple or Spotify. You want to help out the show? Leave a review. We can be found at Startup Storefront on every social media platform with the notable exception of Twitter where we can be found at STS Podcast LA. The team consists of Diego Torres Palma, Natalia Capolini, Lexie Jamison, Owen Capolini and me, Nick Conrad. Our music is by Double Touch. Thank you for listening and we'll see you next time.