 Welcome back to The Breakfast on Plus TV Africa. First major conversation for today. The Economist put out a report over the weekend, which, well, I think sometime last week actually, which was very, very shocking with some of the quotes and statements that were made in that report. And I'll share with you some of them. It says, when violence erupts, the government does nothing or cracks heads amongst indiscriminately. Nigeria's army is mighty on paper, but many of its soldiers are ghosts who exist only on the payroll and much of its equipment is stolen and sold to insurgents. That's one of the things that was a part of the quotes from the writer by the Economist that got a lot of Nigerians talking. It also says, the army is also stretched thin, having been deployed to all of Nigeria's states. The police are understaffed, demoralized and poorly trained. Many supplement rather, they are low pay by robbing the public and they have swan to protect. Another very, very shocking statement on that report. It says, money could have come from cutting wasteful spending by the armed forces on fighter jets, which are not of much use for guarding schools. Just examples of some of the things that were made, statements that were made in that report. And I hope that we will also get to share a little bit more of them with you as we go on with this conversation. This morning we're speaking with a security expert, Kabeer Adamu. Good morning. Thanks for joining us, Mr. Adamu. Good morning, sir. Okay. Of course, the army has responded to the Economist report and of course I would always love to share. It says, it's one of those deliberate falsehoods and noxious narratives orchestrated by a network of detractors and a coven of dark forces working hard to adorn rather the Nigerian army in an unfitting garb of infaming. It basically also said that the Economist is seemingly sponsored to defame President Mohamed Abu-Hari. We'll get to the response by the Nigerian army in a bit. But I want you to start with talking about your analysis of the Economist report. Okay. Thank you. It's a report that it's coming at a time when, unfortunately, the Nigerian military is challenged. Just like the report indicated, it is deployed increasingly actually in internal security matters when, frankly, that is not its primary responsibility. But remarkably, the military has, for some reason, best known to it, taken up that responsibility. And in fact, a lot of people in Nigeria see the military as perhaps the only institution, that fabric that has held the country together. As a result of this overwhelming challenges. In other words, there is a perception that if the military had not come in an attempt to address the internal security challenges, perhaps this fabric of the country would have collapsed by now because those institutions that have the responsibility for addressing those internal security challenges have not been able to so far. Now, the report did mention the police, too, as one of the institutions. And of course, it also talked about the inadequacies within the policing system. So yes, a lot of what the report said is reflective of the current situation in Nigeria. However, there were, I would say, missing gaps, efforts that have been made by this administration and previous administration to improve the circumstances within the military. And the police were not mentioned by that report. And I think the ideals of journalism places that responsibility that when you are doing such a report, when you are especially highlighting such inadequacies, deficiencies, you should also highlight some of the positive. I will quickly mention some of the efforts by the both this government and previous government to improve the military institutions. One of them is reforms aimed at improving human rights and the rules of engagement between these institutions and the public. So we know, for instance, the military has received extensive training both internally and with foreign partners in an attempt to improve this human rights record as well as the rules of engagement. We also know that some structural changes have occurred within these institutions where they've created departments for interaction between the military and those civil security departments. So you have a civil military coordination unit at the moment within the military. You also have instances where infractions by these military officers have been addressed by the military institution. Corruption in an example. We know of a case where a soldier was arrested in Bournemouth State for raping a minor and that soldier has been sentenced. We also know several other cases where several military officers have been caught mash up. So those efforts have been made and I think it would have been very fair for that report to acknowledge and take note of those efforts despite the deficiencies it highlighted. Okay, so let's also still stay with the deficiencies that's been put out in the particular report. Now, the question would be with all of the efforts like you have rightly mentioned that the reforms and the training put out and also with the fact that yes, we have seen the purchase of Tocano jets. We've also seen that again in the proposed 2022 budget, the defense is also going to take a lion's share of 1.4 trillion era. We're looking at about 7% or dare about. How come we still have bandits, Boko Haram and all of this, you know, on the increase? It feels like there's no match. There seem to be a mismatch with, you know, the funds, all of the efforts put together with, you know, tackling of the insorgences. The reality is that I think as a country, we need to differentiate between defense and security. I think as a result of our military legacy, a lot of Nigerians see defense as security when in reality defense is the component of security. And I'll quickly explain what I mean. If we have a challenge like we do have in terrorism in Banditry and name them several other challenges, what we do is we deploy personnel with guns and we think by deploying them, they will be able to address those challenges. No, security compass is more than that. Security is the whole gamut of protection that requires both this physical, you know, forceful deployment as well as the soft component that would address especially the root causes of those challenges. So yes, we're spending money on, you know, purchase of hardware, but are we addressing those root causes of security? In security rather. Unemployment as an example, and I'm happy yesterday the NLC and I think another Labor Union highlighted this topic. No matter how we attempt to address insecurity, if we do not tackle unemployment and poverty, then unfortunately it will be very difficult. Even if we buy, you know, 100 Super Ticandos, 100 helicopter gunboats and we employ even 2 million security personnel. If we do not address those root causes, then unfortunately the situation will continue. The other point is corruption. How much of this 2.4 billion, a trillion rather, would be dedicated to the actual, you know, issues that were highlighted in the budget? What percentage of that would actually go to corrupt hands? You are living witness to the fact that there was a time when a technocrat in this country suggested that for every 10 Kobo budgeted, 8 Kobo of that 10 goes to corrupt pockets. So it appears maybe only 20% of that money is actually going to what it was meant for. Now if that's the case, it means unfortunately we are pouring water into a basket and for us to see the effect of this 2.4 billion, we will have to block the leakages through which this money is going and to do that we need to introduce and strengthen the monitoring and evaluation mechanisms within the entire security architecture that this 2.4 billion would be going to. If we don't do that, then unfortunately it would be a waste of money. These monies would unfortunately not be deployed for the right direction. The other element is also the Sicilian oversight over these departments in government. The National Assembly as an example in under our current democratic disposition has that responsibility for oversight over the military. So as an example, I'm hoping that this report by the economist would serve as a basis for these relevant committees within the National Assembly to oversight and ask critical questions regarding some of the allegations within that report. Now those are the barriers between those institutions can live up. I can tell you unfortunately that the capacity and capability for that oversight at the moment it's not adequate. It can be improved upon. Not too long ago you saw what happened in the U.S. when there was a bombing in Afghanistan during the evacuation of some citizens and then they killed citizens. You saw how the Congress immediately set up a committee and of course the matter has been decided that the bombing was strong and I think compensation has been discussed. So that kind of oversight also reduces these types of deficiencies and it in other places within those military and it reduces the possibility of those leakages. I talked about 2.4 trillion would be a waste if we do not strengthen these two things that I mentioned unfortunately. Mr. Adamo, I'm sure you also know that we don't have that level of oversight with our national assembly that immediately puts to effect certain decisions. We would have committees set up that a lot of times don't really lead to anywhere but I want to take you back. From what you've said, the Economist report isn't wrong. It's mostly correct. The only challenge is that they didn't include some of the gains that the Canadian government has also achieved with its military. One of the things that you mentioned is corruption which later on you've also mentioned corruption as a major challenge. Even if you initially said that corruption is one of the things that they had also tried to fight with an armed soldier who was got marshalled for defiling a minor but the Economist is pointing out corruption and I believe at the topmost level and the fraud that exists with the amount of money and the millions of Naira that are budgeted and that are spent, that don't seem to be achieving much. I want you to speak once again on corruption and how much of a damage it is causing to the fight against insurgency and insecurity. A lot. There is a direct correlation between corruption and the deficiency of equipment and the morale of soldiers both at the battle front and in other spheres, the Charter of Operation by the military. I'll quickly explain what I mean. Equipment is usually bought as a function of the requirement so when you buy fighter jets you are hoping that those fighter jets will be used for specific purposes but then what are the challenges that you have for which you went out to buy those fighter jets? There has been this argument as an example that perhaps instead of fighter jets because of the nature of the both terrorism and insurgency and banditry that we have in the country what would have been relevant for us was helicopter gunships or other types of assets that have the possibility for deployment in this type of internal issues of insurrection. Jets unfortunately don't have the capability for close range of operations but yet that's what we went to buy. Now did we buy because we anticipated another type of security challenge or what stock does for instance for buying both the jets and then these types of helicopter gunships. Currently we have the Super Tucanos which are also very good for this type of close range and ideal operations internally like what we have. Now the other element that is also important like I said had a direct correlation Nigeria is one of the few countries that I know in the world where you have an ongoing war and I know this is debatable but I have an opinion that we do have a war ongoing in several fronts in Nigeria in all the definitions of a war good to the UN and others in what we have in Nigeria to qualify as that but yet our soldiers still move in soft skin vehicles yet our soldiers most times don't have the protective gear that they should have when they are in the battle front most of them frankly even where they have the balaclava, the balaclava cannot even stop the types of ammunition that is being shot you know at them and then one of the most ridiculous in that I'm quoting the chair of the senate committee of the army Ali Ndumi when he said he's been to the war front he's seen our soldiers without ammunition now I haven't seen that what I've seen is them having the AK-47 with one magazine now that one magazine has 30 bullets around in it meanwhile the enemy that is coming to attack them most times would have two magazines typed together with 60 rounds of ammunition and would also have several other cartridges for immediate deployment even when those 60 finish he would also have beyond this AK-47 and so all of these ramifications of the corruption unfortunately because corruption is not just financial it's also systemic and you know we can also talk about the conflict of interest where for instance when you are issued procurement something as basic as feeding instead of running a system that is transparent you issue it to your wife or to your girlfriend or to your husband or someone associated with your husband and at the end of the day that person does not supply the food that he or she is supposed to supply to the soldier in the war front what kind of systems are in place to check that and prevent it all of these unfortunately are happening within this institution that I mentioned but let's not forget these institutions are not alien to the Nigerian society whatever is happening in Nigerian society is most likely to be happening within them so let's not isolate them there are kind of reforms that this administration in particular has done I think has been far-reaching currently there are trials that are ongoing some of them have been concluded regarding a high ranking officer that has been found guilty of being suspected of engaging in corruption you recall the general that was moving money from Sukutu and those that were moving the money for him were arrested that trial if I'm right it's either concluded or it's ongoing a former national security advisor it's still been tried for several infractions to our procurement rules so there have been attempts like that but then my point and I think we would agree to that is that more needs to be done it's not by being reactive we need to be proactive by putting in place M&E monitoring and evaluation as well as audit functions the argument would be no you cannot because they are security agencies but other countries have done it you can institute an internal system for monitoring and evaluation that would be over-cited by the National Assembly so that there is transparency in all of these processes that is from recruitment down to even your operations in the field procurement is one great area I have talked about it in the past and I know that is one area that increasingly there is a lot of confusion from within those institutions so monitoring and evaluation audit functions would hopefully reduce this corruption let's also look at another issue that has been mentioned over time that some quarters have described the Nigerian military as constantly losing a professionalism the constant interference of military in civil affairs we already know that the police is actually created for the purpose of maintaining peace law in a civil society so how would you describe the particular act and what can be done so it's a two-way thing the military doesn't just wake up they are usually directed to interfere usually by presidential pronouncements something coming from the president it could be from the president himself or from any of his aides that have the responsibility now in other countries what happens is that the national assembly would have some say in that type of deployment you know there should be most times there is a criteria and I know the constitution provides for that sort of condition before the military is deployed but because of our military era it's become a norm and I can tell you I've been in circumstances where even governors have kind of supported the deployment of military in their state there are certain instances where the federal government would want to redeploy the military from certain states perhaps for expediency or because of certain requirements that have a reason but governors would not only object to it but they would come to Abuja insist if you know through discussions with several high ranking individuals including the president sometimes and say do not deploy those people out of our state if you do these are the consequences so again that political sort of climate as a result of the legacy of our military past has created this environment where the military is deployed the second point that I would like to emphasize which the report by economists has also spoken about is the inner decreases within the police itself now the police unfortunately has found itself in a situation some of it at the result of its own failures others at the result of failure by past governments and to an extent even the current government funding is an example inability to correct some of the structural decisions within the police has made the police ineffective and incapable of addressing those challenges and so the military has stepped in to cover that gap what is the catch-20 situation and the continued deployment of the military means the police will never be in that position where it would take up its responsibility so that I am an advocate and I know there is a lot of people who are also advocating that we need to draw a line at some point and redeploy the military to ask the police to take over its responsibility but to do that it means the police would have to be strengthened and I am happy to say this administration, the Bahrain administration has done a lot in an attempt to strengthen the police the police acts that have been passed not too long ago I think it was in 2019 then of course we have also seen the police trust fund which would have responsibility for improving training welfare and equipment within the police and then we have also seen recently especially after the end starts the reform process that has been instituted by the police so we are hoping that all of these things increase the capacity of the police to take over from the military but there has to be a conscious effort and like I said I think we need to draw a line and say okay from 2022 or 2023 this is the procedure for deploying the military and until then the police must take over the leadership for internal security deployment but let's not forget it's not just the responsibility of the police they are about at least 18 to 19 departments that have responsibility for civil security matters and each of these departments will have to be strengthened our quick list like as an example mention the customs and immigration border security is their responsibility and most of the weapons that we have in the country are coming in from across the border so if those departments are not strengthened then it means no matter how we attempt to strengthen the police there will still be those guards so it's not just looking at one institution we have to look at the entire security architecture as a whole and strengthen the capacity and capabilities of all the organizations that have responsibility for different well sounds really interesting your perspective but I want us to now talk about the response from the army you agree somehow some way to a large extent with the economists and what they've stated it even got to as saying that the ammunition and some of the arms are stolen and sold to the insurgents but I want you to look at the response from the army that basically use many words from the dictionary to say that the economists is sponsored to defame the president of the army do you see that as an army that understands the gravity of these accusations and knows what needs to be done in order for it to actually win the war against insurgency and also when an army sees these things and interprets it as efforts to defame the president what does that say to you again this is the legacy of a military sort of era these kind of responses are responses that a PR department in an institution will throw out but then the military institution is a well respected institution despite the I would say a great deal of nature of the allegation and I think the response should have been a bit more diplomatic with regards to for instance yes you can discredit the conclusion and like I said point out the fact that the economists did not take into consideration the huge reforms and the steps that have been taken but also shouldn't that be an opportunity for the army to point out these things instead of simply saying that this is meant to defame the president and why is that always the response to criticism like I said this is the legacy of our military era institutions of government quickly come up as it were see accusations or reports like this as an attempt to directly smear the person of the president as it were but let's remember that the institution of the president is there because of Nigeria so that institution is not over the roof Nigeria what has happened is now a well respected publication actually dragging the name of our country Nigeria to the moths now whether it is correct or not the responsibility is on the whole institution of government not just the military to point out whether that is correct I would have an example given the fact that the economy is an international organization and the ministry of foreign affairs would have had an impute in the response by the military the ministry of foreign affairs is better suited to speak that language of diplomacy and speak to the committee of nations in a manner that they will understand that response unfortunately I think is short on diplomacy it is very short in terms of responding to the core issues that were raised by the economy and I am hoping that there will be a follow of response that would be more diplomatic that would address those core issues and also more importantly put the responsibility on the economist to make sure that it correct some of the misconception that it has created by that report what we have ended up doing is confirming rather what the military has responded is confirming their accusation allegation that as an institution it is not accountable to the civilian population by simply condemning that publication without necessarily providing an alternative narrative I am not an expert in communication but I know that one of the things you are hoping to do when you are responding is to provide an alternative narrative you don't just discredit but provide an alternative narrative so that that drives the conversation and I think most Nigerian departments of government unfortunately do not realize this all we hear like you rightly said is the defensive position but provide the alternative narrative so that you discredit what was said and you still as it were the platform from wherever it is trying to smear you alright just seeing that they also have a podcast on the economist titled State of Emergency Nigeria I am going to definitely take a listen to that thank you very much for your time this morning have a very beautiful Monday ahead thank you and have a good week ahead too you too stay with us Dele Farotimi joins us next of course to discuss the state of the nation and I am sure that some of these things that we have just spoken about will come up in this conversation coming up next