 My name is Suchi Gurgh. I am the technical team lead in Aakoya. To give some background about me, educationally I am an MBA in finance and marketing, but then I came into IT, I started doing development, PHP development, and I have been doing PHP for the past 13-14 years now. I have never bought a book in PHP, never learned PHP from any training institute, but I have been in the Drupal space since Drupal 4.6 and again, never brought a book, pushed into it. At this moment, if I look at Aakoya certifications, for example, I am a grandmaster and currently I am leading a team, I am in managing projects, I am a technical architect, so these are the roles that I have been playing. One of the roles while doing all this is because Aakoya is a US-based company and it started ten years back, but we started in India about three years back and we have been growing like crazy. I joined Aakoya about one and a half years back and there were just six people in the company at that time. At this moment, we are 25 plus and the plan is to increase this two-fold within this year. So as you can imagine, hiring has been our number one priority and while we are trying to hire, we have been facing a lot of challenges and this is one of the sums of what I have experienced in the past one and a half year. Just to get an understanding of my audience, can you just tell me a bit about yourselves? I am the COO of a Drupal development company. And how big are your 25 people? So somewhere around what Aakoya, India is essentially the size. Others who are owning a company who are involved in talent hiring who all here are involved in hiring. I think that's why you are here. As we just said, what are we discussing? My slides don't have anything, so I don't think you'll be able to write. Before I start with the challenges we are facing, let me tell you a bit about my experience. As I told you, I am an MBA in finance and marketing and I got a placement job, placement as in they came to the campus and they hired me and I was an executive assistant in a management services, in a cement management services company which is like nowhere near IT, nowhere near IT. I was an executive assistant, I was supposed to be doing business management kind of stuff, etc. But within one year, one and a half year of joining, I was sort of pushed into IT. My boss, he was the executive director of the company at that time, he was the one who, it just happened that our IT managers, there were two managers, they just quit and it's a 350 strong company. Those two people just quit, we had our internal servers and there was nobody to take care of them. The person, my boss who was handling all this, he was in the US. And I'm talking about 2000 or 1999 maybe. And he just pinged me on Yahoo I am because that's what was prevalent at that time. And he just pinged me, alright, you need to reboot the server. And I'm like, I don't know, what needs to be done? I don't know how to do it. And he was like, okay, I'll be sending you commands, you just copy paste, copy paste. And that's how I got into servers. Then he and me, both of us, single-handedly decided, alright, let's make an internet for the company. That's when I got into PHP. I started PHP and PHP 3, where extension used to be dot PHP 3. And OOPS was just OOPS. OOPS, I dropped this. And not object-oriented programming thing. So that's where I started. I still remember once, he was in the company, he was around. But I just removed, I just deleted the content of one whole department on the server. And the department was finance and accounting. So you just imagine the... And I'm always an early riser, I reached office early, he used to come a bit late. And I went, sorry, I just did this. Alright, what did you do? So he sat me down, because I was like all hyper, I don't know what to do. So he said, okay, what did you do? I did just this. Very cool, Lee Kamdi. Let's do a backup restore. And that's how I learned. That's how I learned. Even though I was not an intern, and what we are talking about here is an internship program essentially. But what I'm trying to say here is that if you have a mentor who invests his time in you, that is when your association with that organization, with that mentor, with that boss actually grows really badly. So we just talked about so many people here who are into... Hi, who are into Drupal Hain, the new people who have come in. Can I just have some idea of what roles you are in? I have a program manager, which we are having today. Alright, and you are involved with Hain, I'm sure. I am also working as a project manager for the new digital and basically setting up a new Google practice. So let's switch a bit to the Indian scenario. But I am sure you guys also face the same challenges. All of you are involved in hiring and you have been trying to hire for the past, let's say, one year or something. What are the biggest challenges that you see in the community today? Anything? Communication skills, yes. But I think the biggest concern is the technical... The standard that we want for technical expertise is not there. I know this, I'll do this. I'll not do anything else. They would like to be just on a focus area, they don't know what to say. The narrow focus rather than getting a broader focus? Yeah. A rock star developer. Okay, but when the time goes on, the pressure builds on you. I'm sorry, I didn't get it. Initially we looked for a rock star developer, a Drupal developer. A rock star developer, alright. You really find them. Okay. When the time goes on, the pressure builds on you. You have to hire... Many others. There are only few rock stars in the community. That is the problem. And they won't join you. If you're a Drupal... It is, everybody has their own concerns. People don't join Aquia as well, even though in the Drupal community, I would consider Aquia to be at a higher preference level than others. But people have their own reasons why they don't want to join. For example, for us, one of the reasons... We have lost a lot of people because we are located in Delhi and we are not very open to a remote culture. And so people don't want to relocate. They cannot relocate. They have their... And that's perfectly okay. So the biggest issue, as we said, is technical talent and then the aptitude stuff, etc. Attitude is something that, yes, you can try to... Technical talent is also something you can train them, but then you have to train them. And I think one of the biggest reasons behind all that is... If I look at the educational institutes today, do you know of any educational institute, any college, which has Drupal as its curriculum? I know one. And that too, because the teacher there, the professor who's owning that particular IT thing, he is a very pro Drupal person. So he has one semester, one thing, which is a Drupal course. Just a small course, but at least he's giving their students a push towards Drupal. But other than that, forget about Drupal. We don't have PHP in the curriculum. So people do have that... All right, I've learned .NET, I've learned VB. I'll go there because I've learned C++. I'll go there. They don't have that kind of inclination to go towards an open source thing. And I mean, if I look at some of the... If I don't include people who are passionate in trying to do something new, if they are not, they will just teach... They'll just learn what is being taught in the class and that's it. They're done. I have some examples sitting right here who in the college, in the school, decided to just open the computer apart and do what not with it. But there are others who don't even care. They just want to pass the exams and that's it. And when you have such a mentality, getting Drupal talent out of the education and just out of the box is just not possible. I think that is one of the biggest problems that we have. Also, if I look at the big training institutes that are available, the biggest training institute that comes to my mind in terms of Indian context again is an IIT. They don't have a Drupal curriculum. They don't know about Drupal. They have a PHP curriculum, but that is offered in just some centers. Just some centers. But if you go for dot IDS, I've got this many curriculums, this many courses. If you have VB+, VB and whatnot, you have loads of curriculums available. But when it comes to open source things like PHP and Drupal, no, there's nothing. And that in some ways does... Again, because we have issues like this, the problem that we guys face as people who try to hire is a typical chicken and eggs thing. We need experienced people. But where do experienced people come from? We don't have experienced people. So, I mean, as I said, we don't need freshers, but freshers, how do they gain experience unless and until we teach them or somebody teaches them. That is the problem. The solution, I would not say it's a one-stop solution, but one of the possible solutions is probably internship and that is what we are here to talk about. The possible solution is internship that we hire people who have some spark and we try to train them in Drupal and then try to see whether they suit our needs and they also see whether this company, SUSA needs and try to merge them. But when we talk of internships, what makes an internship useful? What makes an internship powerful? Before I go into that, just a question in your career, another career, has there been one person who has been instrumental in your growth in guiding you? I'm sure each and every one of you has that one person who guided you into the right spot, into the right direction. Once you have that kind of a person, you try to stick to that person, to the organization that person belongs. So, having one person who is guiding you, not only technically, technical guidance is important, yes, but overall mentoring is really, really important. That's what makes an internship bang on. That's what makes an internship useful enough without that kind of investment, without that kind of a thing. Internships don't really matter. But what exactly, I mean, the question is if I look at from the intern's point of view, we have one ex intern here sitting, we have one current intern sitting here. I'm sure you are also sitting here from the student's perspective and not the hiring perspective. These are the, what does internship have in for you? So, career exploration, so that you don't have to go into that field, but at least you are able to get into the field, experience it firsthand, and then you figure out and then you decide whether this is right for me or not. Because at times, from the outside, some field looks very challenging, very interesting, but once you are into it, then you realize, okay, this is not for me. It doesn't excite me. That is the biggest thing an internship can offer you. Gain industry knowledge, accumulate evidence of your abilities, critical professional contacts, that's really, really important. Confidence boost, possibly land a full-time job. If the company, if the organization likes you as an intern, yes, they would want to give you a job, but they might not want to give you a job as well. It depends entirely on you. And of course, resume enhancements. So, in your resume, if you're like, yes, I've done internship with ABC. It has a weightage, right? But if we talk loosely, a lot of things are called internship. If I ask any of you, what do you mean by internship? Can anyone answer? What is internship? You're trying to look for an internship program. What do you feel is internship? The team is already working on it. It gives us an insight of how the corporate world is actually working, the dynamics of the world at hand. Okay. Anybody else? Yeah? Get real-time hands-on projects. Get real-time hands-on projects? Yes, or maybe no. Because as a project manager, I would not probably not put an intern on a full-time project. Just like that. But as a shadow, they can... As a shadow, yes. As a shadow. That's important. Get to know the workflow. Exactly. So, you are part of the project, but maybe not really doing, but just overseeing things and seeing how things work. You want to say something? You're just smiling. Internship is a period of pressure where we get an exposure of how the industry works. Where we get an exposure of where we lack. And we also get an opportunity to improve ourselves and get concurrently. Very long answer. Too much in the answer. Typical of... All right. Let me give you the official... One of the official definitions of internship. And of any official or formal program to provide practical experience for beginners in an occupation or profession. I think that pretty much summarizes what internship is. It might not be exactly for all freshers when a person is trying to switch the field of their work. That is also one point where they might want to do internships. I was in IT. I don't want to do IT now. I don't want to do something else. I might want to up. So, it's not only for students, but it is for everybody who's new to the field. That is where an internship is really required. And internship can be paid or unpaid. It can be part-time, full-time. Right? Interns, maybe college or university graduates are the freshers that, as you mentioned, but it can be full-time grown-up adults, postgraduate adults who decide to switch. Then, you know, it's a structured work experience, essentially. And it should... If you're talking about the student, it should enhance the student's field of study. It should enhance his term grade or somehow it should be enhancing his field of study so that he gains something out of the internship. That's the whole point of getting an internship. But I think the biggest, the strongest point when I have to define internship is that it should be an experience where the intern is mentored by a professional. That is the biggest and most important thing. Unless and until there is mentorship by a professional, if we just hire an intern and let him lose as an orphan, it will not help. So, a professional mentorship in an internship program is the most important thing. Whether it's a paid or an unpaid scenario, whether it's a newbie, whether it's a postgraduate adult who has a ten years of experience, it doesn't matter. It has to be a mentored program. Unless and until mentored, it will not have any weightage at all. So, internship, all the definitions, whatever we talked about, all holds true. But the key point is this, active mentorship. Unless and until we have active mentorship, we are not able to do anything. So, one minute. Yeah, sorry. We just talked about how internship is useful for the interns. Now we can talk about how internship is useful for the organization. These are, I mean, how many of you have actually had interns, have had interns in their company? And I'm sure whatever good, whatever result you wanted out of it is listed out here. What was the biggest thing that came to your mind when you were hiring an intern? Um, what's the difference in future employees? Yeah, fine future employees. That's probably the topmost thing. For you as well? Yeah. Others? Yeah, as well as to see the future of the talent. The future of the talent, yes. That's pretty much fine future employees and future talent is pretty much the same. We also like them for the culture. They tend to be young and fun. Yes. And a little bit of, you know, positivity. Yeah, if you look at the team, which has, like, all of them are five-year-old developers, the perspective that an intern brings is really unique. Why can't we do this like this and not this? And that's really important. Some people do talk about this as well. Even though I put this here, I'm sure I'm not a supporter of this because they think that, okay, internship is to take advantage of local slavery. So I have an intern go and bring coffee for me. No. I will not do that. They take time, though, and they're being more expensive than it sounds. Yes. But they're, um, practically they're more hardworking because they're more land-based. Yes. For sure. Totally agree. Totally agree. And I think the last point is very relevant as well. We don't really think of the last point, but it's really relevant. So for example, I have an intern who's been working for me for the past three months, six months, whatever, and he's from a great college, which has a great talent, but I've not been able to see the talent. But when he goes back there, you know, he says, okay, this company is really great to work with. This has a really, really great culture, and that is free advertising for you, literally. Word of mouth, where, if you're looking at an advertisement, you will not feel like, okay, I want to buy this product. But the moment somebody says, okay, I've used this, I love it. Yes, you might want to try it out. So this last part is also very, very important. So these are the advantages that almost every one of us can think about. But there are so many intrinsic advantages that are not written here. Again, coming back to my example, I was not an intern, yes, but because of the fact that I was, like, so invested in, so I was given so much of mentorship by somebody, I was an intern in the field of IIT totally, because I was not trained for IIT. So I might be a full-time employee, but as, if I look at it culturally and if I look at it technically, I was actually an intern, because I was being groomed to become an IIT manager or whatever, BHP developer or whatever. I do remember when I said, if you remember, I just said that we decided to build an intranet for the company. Just two people actually built an intranet for the company in less than a month, and that was being run by, and that was being used by 350 people right from the WorldCo. Intranet which did not have any CMS, core PHP, core database calls, et cetera, et cetera, and we built an intranet. Because of the fact that I was so invested, I made sure that I have a commitment, I have to do it. After that, we didn't stop there. Almost single-handedly, I made a project management system for them, and project management system for a cement company that has been in the business since 1967. And again, 350 people. Therein, they have projects, tasks, time slots, time sheet entries, everything. And that thing, I mean, I last talked to them about six, seven years back, and it was still running. Core PHP, nothing like that, and it was still running. Post-rescue, I didn't know my school at that time, so he decided, let's do PGS scale. I was like, okay, let's do PGS scale. I have to learn either of them. So I just did that. Even though now if I look back at it, I'm like, what did I write? But the level of commitment that an intern has, because of the fact that that person is so invested in you, that's very high. I worked for that organization for almost eight years, and I would not have left that. I might have been still in that organization, but I had some personal issues. I got really sick. I couldn't travel to the office and et cetera, et cetera. That was the reason I left that. Otherwise I would still have been there, because of the fact that, yes, people had that investment in me. So again, you know, if you train an intern properly, if you invest in the intern properly, and make sure that his growth path is good enough, that person becomes part of your DNA. His growth is from within rather than, you know, and that kind of person will, in all the cases, each and every case, will perform better than a person who is getting a paycheck to get his job done, because that person has that social connect with you. And that is the whole. So organizations have an intern program. Yes, all this is very good, but an internship program almost always, if it is successful, almost always guaranteed committed employees. I have seen a lot of cases where we started with an intern and he or she would be in the organization for a very long time as compared to others, even if the company or the industry is a high transition industry. Do you guys agree with me? I don't know, I don't want this to be a one-way thing. Any comments, any critiques? I started as an intern at my company 16 years ago, so I'm the COO. Awesome. It can work. You can vouch for that, totally. Awesome. How about your financial implications? Suppose you have an internal trade web, and probably your competitor might know some facts about the person, maybe he or she might offer more. Yes. Because nowadays, instead of having an institution, an intern ratification or something, I agree to your thing, but again, it depends on what motivates the person. Again, if I talk about my example, I was in that company for eight years, and within that eight years, I did get a lot of good offers, which were paying much more than what I was being paid. But because I was comfortable in that company, and not only comfortable, I was valued in that company. I did not think of a switch. I mean, there are people who are driven by money, I would not deny that. No, I mean, ten years of that, yes, I agree with that statement, but if you see the generation, they're definitely not in that fashion. Not at all. They want to make sure that... Yes, as I said, there are people who are actually turned on by money, let's say, let's put it this way, but not all. And down the line, people do realize that money is not... I would not stay in a company because it's offering me much more money. I would stay in the company because I like working there or I like the environment there. Those things are much more involved. Maybe that's just me, but I have worked with the current generation as you just put it, the current generation. I am part of the older generation, sadly. But yeah, I have worked with the current generation. We have people here who... I mean, they are smart enough to understand that, yes, money is important, but you have to think about other things as well. I do understand the point that you're trying to make here, that yes, I train a person. I spend half... I'm just telling you that are you... internally you're also taking a risk where... Yes, yes. That's a risk that is present always. You hire a person, you even buy their notice period out and that person leaves in three months. Happens always. Right? So that's a risk you have to be willing to take. So how do you compare the intensity of what is a fresher recruitment? A fresher recruitment... A fresher recruitment... recruit with a fresher. What do you mean by fresher? I'm right from the college, not a... Then again, even if it's a fresher recruit, you will have to train that person. Right? The internship in some ways is better in that case because you have an obligation with that person for a certain period of time and if that person doesn't suit you and if that person feels that the company doesn't suit me, it's both ways. If they don't suit you, there's no... All right. There's okay, this is the end of... It's the six months internship. This is the end of six months. I don't need to hire you. But if you have hired a recruit, a fresher, you have recruited a fresher. Now you have a lot of other things. You have all the benefits that you have to give him. You have... If you have a notice period kind of a thing, you can't just fire him after six months because then you have to give him the notice period thing as well. So it's... You know, the kind of investment in terms of training is similar in both the cases, but the contractual obligation is lesser in terms of internship because the person who's coming as an intern knows exactly that, okay, I'm an intern for six months. I have to learn in this six months. I have to perform well and only then I will be given a full-time status. Only then I'll be hired. But a fresher or a recruit, he knows, oh yes, I'm hired now. That's what happens in placements. TCS. Maybe Vipro. I don't know. Vipro does like, all right, go to a college, hire 25 people. Yes, let's go. That's what happens. But if we talk about smaller organizations like yours, like ours in India, we cannot do that because we don't have the training, you know, setups. TCS has a training who are full-huge training a center in Mysore in Chennai as well. We don't have that and we can't afford that. I would not say it's a love marriage, it's a courtship period. Marriage comes in later. That okay, this is a courtship period. Now I don't like you. I don't want to marry you. Divorce Lena Padika. You'll have to divorce that person now. Thank you. Thanks a lot. Yes, there is, there are those ways. But then in some ways it is very comparable to an internship because again, the person who's joined knows that I am on probation for six months and unless until I perform well, I learn well, I demonstrate my capabilities, I will not be able to do that. So that in some terms is comparable to internship because again, any ways if you're hiring an intern, you have to train them. You have to put in that investment in any case, whether you're hiring as an intern or whether you're hiring as a full term on probation or no probation, etc. So investment is the same. Maybe slightly less or no, but probation, yes, if you have a probationary period, you have that kind of a clear cut end point that yes, this is the point where you have to demonstrate. Maybe it's similar to internship in some ways. I think like there is more pressure to deliver within that system. No. As an intern, one of my interns is sitting right here. Talk to him about pressure. You know pressure, like if I'm hiring a pressure and if there is a probationary period, then they need to deliver. So even an intern who is on, intern again, it's sort of in a probationary period for that intern as well. If he's an intern for six months, he knows what internship gives both the parties is a flexibility. Maybe the intern thinks that yes, this thing is not for me. Then that is the best way to test drive. You know, that yes, this is, maybe this is, if you hire a pressure, the pressure doesn't really know. Let's think, let's talk about the intern, in the Indian scenario. You have been to colleges and you were part of the college once. Placement day, first day, how many people apply? Everybody. Irrespective of what is the company, what is the job description, what is the damn role? I don't care. I'm just applying because I want a job. Am I right? Nobody cares on what the job description is. So as a company, you hired a person on the first day of placement. Do you think that that person has the right fit for you? And whether that person knows that this job is the right fit for me. That is what internship allows you to have. Point of view, I would like to add, as an intern, from a student's point of view, we just go and we like to have fun. We learn. We are happy for knowledge, actually. Honestly speaking, the six months, we have no guarantee, a proper thing that you'll be hired after six months. Those six months, we literally live there and we learn. Try to learn as much as possible. We are literally hungry for knowledge in our six months. Yeah. So it's like a beneficial thing for both. Like the organisers or the company and the students as well. Thank you. It helps to have a different perspective as well. Anything else? Anything else you guys might have? Yeah? Yeah, I could say yeah. What are some of the kind of prerequisites for a I'll be coming to that. We have heard of a success story here. I am a success story of sort of internship. I have a success story sitting right there. This guy was hired and then interned fresh out of the college and now he's into engineering of Aquia and he's a very bright guy. But we do have a horror story as well. Does anybody have a horror story? What is the worst thing that your boss or your mentor asked you to do? Worst possible thing. Fetch my dry clean. Have you seen Devil Veer's Prada? Anybody has seen that movie? Yeah. I was sure that a woman would have seen that. I was sure none of the guys would have seen that. But a girl would have seen that. So that's that's a horror story for sure. So I have seen in terms being told, okay, go and fetch coffee. Go and do photo stats. Photo copies. Go and fetch my laundry. We don't have that much laundry fetching in India. But yeah, I've seen that. Before we go to what she was saying, just what internship is not, it's not a go for position. Internship is not for fetch this and fetch that and do data entry. It's not for that. It's not a guaranteed job offer from both ends. I mean if the organization likes the intern, it's not necessary that guy may join and vice versa. It's not for free labor. It's not for clerical or data entry jobs. Don't think, it's a different matter. We do give some data entry jobs to our interns. But then the product demands. But it's essentially, it's not a clerical job thing that we have had somebody who's a low cost thing, low cost person. So let's go ahead and, you know, and this is a takeaway from what I had been saying earlier. Mentorship. Internship cannot be an unguided and unsupervised experience. It cannot be. That is one of the biggest things that we have to stick with. It cannot be an unguiding thing. You can't hire an intern and then leave him often in the company. He'll just be there. I just read a quote somewhere. We said, Internship is a Debbie performance and not a dressy herself. So that is something that the interns here should understand that you have to be committed to it. Don't think of it as a dress rehearsal. Think of it more as your Debbie performance. Do you understand the difference between the two? Do you understand the difference between the two? All right. So again, from the interns' point of view, the purpose of internship, like you very rightly said, it's not the purpose is not to make money. The purpose is to learn as much as you can to assimilate the culture as much as you can and then go ahead and decide on what you do, what you want to do in the rest of your life. Now, yes, we should have an internship. I just hope that this talk of mine has influenced some of the people who have an internship program, but how to be really good at internship. You can't just go ahead and hire somebody as an intern and be happy with it. That's not an internship program. There are a few prerequisites. The first one, gain business-wide backing. What I mean by this is, take for example our company, yes, Aquia India is an entity, but we do have our bosses who are in the US. Unless and until each one of the layers, right from the CEO to the actual manager, unless and until all of them agree that yes, we want to hire an intern, yes, we want to go ahead with the internship program. The internship program will not be successful. The reasons behind that is, the topmost levels, they have to look at the financial part of it, right? The lower levels, I would not say the lower levels, the supervised levels, the mentor levels, they have to be ready to invest that amount of time, that amount of focus on that person. Unless and until they are ready, internship will not succeed. The financial aspect of it is also, is also on a different way. I as a person, I as a supervisor, I as a mentor have been assigned an intern and I have been told to mentor a person, but I have a project 100%. Can I do that? I will not be able to, I might try to do that if I am worrying about the outcome of that internship, but I will not be able to do a good job out of it. So unless and until the top management agrees to an internship program and allows that kind of business hit, allows that kind of financial hit into the company, the internship program cannot be successful. The second point is again the same. Investment in terms of money, even though there might not be, even if it's a free internship, and there might not be direct compensation that you are paying to the intern, it is possible, but the investment in terms of money is still there, because it's an opportunity cost. You are using a supervisor who is intern, who's mentoring somebody and he's spending 50% of his time in mentorship. What does that mean? That essentially means that we are losing 50% of his billable time. We have to invest. We have to plan the internship program. All right, tomorrow my intern is coming. What do I do with him? No, that will not help. And the reasons are very straightforward. I will just read out a few things there. So a comprehensive internship structure should include information on learning objectives, daily responsibilities, short and long term projects, supervisor assignments, evaluation procedures, policies and expectations, orientation and off-boarding processes. And these are the basic things that a plan should have. And the last part is put together our compensation plans. Please don't hire free interns. They might come to you, yes, but they'll not be our investor. Everybody likes money. All of us are sitting here for money, essentially. So plan a compensation program. Do I answer your question now? Any of you guys would like to create a question? Everybody agrees? Wow. All right. So again, I like red color when I want to invest. I think that's the end of my presentation as such. In conclusion, I would just like to say a few things which I've already said, but I would like to reiterate. Internship is a great way to sustain your talent pipeline. If you have an intern, you know that, okay, I can take up this project because I have this great intern and he is capable of becoming a full-time developer or a full-time manager or whatever within two months. So I am able to take on this project because I know that I have this guy in pipeline. When I'm hiring somebody, he might come, he might not come. There have been cases when people have accepted the offer later and the day of the journey they call up and say, oh, sorry, you're not coming. That happens. So internship is a great way to sustain your talent pipeline, but internship is not free for all. You have to invest in internship in terms of money, in terms of time, in terms of planning it out, in terms of almost everything. Think of internship as a full-time program and think of internship as a way to make your talent pipeline, to grow your talent pipeline. And frankly speaking, when you do something like this, you will be doing good for your own organization, for the educational institute in some way because you're absorbing people and for the academy as well in some way. That's all I had for today. Thank you. Questions? Any questions? Anything else? You would like to discuss? Sure. We said that this is an active mentorship required for internship. Yes. How do you prepare mentors that would be best? I mean, every project work and all that stuff. And still they have to do some kind of... That is a question we have not been able to answer even in our career. We are trying to build. And mentorship is something that comes... I mean, you might have a layer of people who are great technically, but not all of them are mentors. Not all of them have that thing in them. So that is something as a manager or as a... I don't know what level you are on, but you have to be able to figure out in a person that, yes, this guy can act as a mentor. Let's try to put somebody and see what happens. You have to take those kinds of risks. We have some awesome technical people, but they are not people's person. They just want to sit in a corner and we can't do much about it. In our company, it's one of the skills people are used to talking about. Everyone. Are you also a good trainer? Say, you can go through it and see what your best trainer is at the team with them because they all like to train people as a mentor. For example, I love to train. I love to sit with people and teach them something. But there are so many people who just don't like it. It's an intrinsic thing. You might be able to teach them a bit of that, but not really. It comes from within. So that is something you need to figure it out. There's no answer to this question, essentially. Sure. You can try to do that. For example, in our company, we do have a body program. Anybody who joins, he has to have a body for the first month which walks him through the hoops in some way in the sense that, okay, a person who joins, on the first day he sees his email, it's like full up of get-in-account-here, get-in-account-here, so many things. So a body program, yes, it helps. But again, being a good teacher, a good mentor is sort of an intrinsic quality which we might try to hone, but it's very difficult to make somebody a teacher, make somebody a mentor. It's difficult. Yes? Totally. Totally. I agree with that. And it's not always that the person who's new and who's being mentored learns. Almost every time, the person who's mentoring also learns a lot. The new perspective, the new thinking, lots of things. A person who's fresh has so much to offer. Yes? Yes, I totally agree. After 19 years in the industry, yes, I totally agree that we are now jaded, literally. So we have to have that fresh perspective. Anything else? Sure. At the beginning of the session, you mentioned that there's lack of quality root for developers, but there are competitions like Google Summer of Code to name a month. And India is one of the countries where there are many fruitful developers and PHP developers, PHP projects every year, every consecutive year that needs to be done. So where is that talent going? Who is coaching that? If you are saying, if you are from, if you are saying that there's lack of talent. I am not able to find them. Unfortunately. I don't know why. I don't know how, where they are going. But when I look through people who are applying, I look through people who are trying to join us or I sent out feelers to everybody. I am not finding people. India is at number two. Totally agree. Totally agree. We have a lot of Rupal talent. But. Not limited to Rupal talking about PHP projects. In generally. I don't deny that. But again, the level of expertise, you are talking about Google Summer of Code. How many people actually go through that? It doesn't matter for what. But you have, yeah. Yeah. But do you, do you actually learn, how do you learn when you are in Google Summer of Code? How do you learn? You code and you learn. You don't have active membership, active mentorship. Do you agree? Yeah. To be specific, at this one, there is a mentor and you constantly are interested in that. Yes. But I participated in this one. Some other project where I put in a message. Yes, sir. I applied for, as for a girl in our family. That's totally different. From what I, Suji's perspective was, we don't know how to get that talent. We are not getting that talent. We are not getting. We are, that talent is somehow hidden. I don't know. If I look at, even if I look at, generally, if I look at, let's say, nokri.com, I see, I mean, search for Drupal and you'll see a huge list of resumes. Yes. But one thing is, what is the level of their own? I, sure. Sir, what I face a lot with people, white people don't choose for Drupal is because this initial learning curve is too long. I'm not interested in it and they say, yes, totally. And they don't realize that actually they can make much more money with Drupal. So, I think the stats also that were shown this morning. Hmm. Yeah, I'm also, I'm going to put it on my blog. That's done in Drupal. I mean, you invested in yourself. You were saying something, sir? Yes. Should be? Should be. Totally agree. Yes. When I interview a person, I don't ask about the language syntax. I would ask for a pseudo-program. If I'm actually, yes, normally if I'm hiring specifically for Drupal, specifically, but if I go for an intern thing, I would like to, I would not really want that, I would not really think that I want a PHP developer only or a Drupal developer only. I would like to think, I would like to see how his flow is. Is he, is his fundamentals clear? Is his thought process clear? Because if a person can write a pseudo-code, he can pick up any language and go ahead with that. Yes. It's not a nice language. Ouch. Yeah. I agree. Sometimes PHP is called a younger sister of C in some ways, which is much more open and much more okay with whatever. Including C. Including C, yes. Totally agree. Of course. Exactly. I totally agree. And that's what, in conclusion, that's exactly what I said. What I said was that when we are investing in an internship program, we are actually doing something for the community. We are doing something for the academia. We're doing something for the students. Sure. You just said that you're not getting a lot of people compared mentioned before. A lot of the institutions are not even aware there's something called a Drupal. My institution, honestly speaking yesterday, was the first time I attended a Drupal lecture. I know. You were in my training, so I know exactly. So as a student, as a pressure, I would look for something which is job security. If I'm learning something, I would go for cloud computing. It's like a recent trending thing. Trending thing, alright. My project is on cloud, actually. That is the reason I'm actually talking about it. So I would talk about something which I have and ensure future. Sure. C and C++, they actually ensure a future. So... Alright. There's a three six. Drupal also ensures a future. And sorry, guys, but we have to, we'll have to move this discussion outside. Thanks a lot.