 Welcome to plenary five of the 2022 international conference on sustainable development. This panel is science communications for impact and I'm pleased to turn it over to our moderator, Dr Laura Helmuth. Thank you so much and welcome everybody thanks so much for joining us today from around the world and and welcome to everyone who's joining us in the future who are everybody who's watching the recording. Thank you for your concern for your interest in SDGs and in science communication. This, this meeting this whole meeting and this the session as well are part of climate week, part of New York global goals week. So we've got a lot of great, great science to communicate really important things to to to work with the public on to to work with each other on to study to share. So we're going to talk about about how to have science communication for impact. We've got a great panel in this this panel comes about through a partnership between the organizations that created the International Conference on sustainable development, which is the Center for sustainable development at Columbia, the global masters of development practice in the UN sustainable development solutions network. So those groups have teamed up with spring or nature to do a series called science for a sustainable future. And this panel has kind of grown out of out of that partnership and a white paper that we published together in 2021 about the world's greatest challenges and some of the challenges have to do with raising awareness of SDGs and science communication. And, oh, I should say, yeah, Laura help with I'm the editor in chief at it scientific American which is part of spring or nature. And I'm delighted to to be joined today by three just fantastic activists communicators, advocates, people who are who are having an impact every day. So just to introduce them briefly, you can read more about them for in the website for this panel to introduce them briefly. Abigail Caprono Kima is an energy expert and a climate activists, and she is the producer and host of a new podcast profiling active African activists and climate experts leading up to COP 27. Laura Blau is the co founder of the Oxford Climate Journalism Network. He's previously worked at Conde Nast companies in Asia Europe and Latin America, and he's worked for the Guardian and site online. And Jason Maitland is currently the president of the Sustainability Institute of Trinidad and Tobago, whose focus is on transforming societies to achieve balanced social, economic and environmental progress. And I'm delighted to be able to talk with them today about all things science communication and SDGs and impact. And I'd like to start by just asking each of the three of you to tell us a little bit about the sorts of science communication you do. And Abigail, if it's all right, can we start with you. Thank you so much for having me on this panel. It's an honor to speak on this panel. As you have said my name is Abigail and I'm a host and producer for a climate podcast called Halihawa. So Halihawa in Sahili is translation for climate. And the sole purpose for studying of this podcast was to do storytelling for climate stories, for climate stories within African communities, spotlighting African activists and experts. So the science communication that I do ideally say climate science communication. Nice. Oh, that's great. And what language is your podcast in? It's in English. It is in English. Okay, great. So anybody can go, anybody who's on the, who's, who's in the audience can, can, can listen. Great. Wolfgang, would you like to go next? Oh, it looks like you're muted. Everybody's done it. Three years later, we're still doing it. Hello, everyone. And thank you for having me here with you all. So my approach to science communication is, is I work with journalists and news organizations I've worked in journalism for, for many, many years. And, and the question in different leadership roles was always why is so much of our climate journalism not resonating with our readers, viewers and listeners as much as we would hope to. And from that, we came through research and speaking with many experts around the world to the conclusion that to really formulate it in the extreme. The best climate journalism is that the climate journalism that barely mentions the word climate that doesn't treat it as this vertical topic. Now let's all talk about science, but that weaves the climate dimension into sports journalism, into food journalism, architecture, you name it. And that is my approach. And that's how I work with news organizations on what that looks like day to day. Yeah, that's great. Yeah, every story is a climate story. Yeah. Yeah, love it. Jason, would you like to talk about some of your work? So thank you for having me and you know I'm really privileged to be part of this session. They worked at the Sustainability Institute of Trinidad and Tobago does. We are a nonprofit organization. Most of our focus in bringing researchers and sharing information around climate and science and so forth has been with industry. We have a thriving energy industry in Trinidad and Tobago. Yet we recognize the need to transition and really be more sustainable and reduce our carbon footprint, particularly since we are a small island developing nation. That work has since transcended from industry to governmental and non-governmental organization. And a lot of the work we do now is actually internationally through collaborations in the US, UK, and some other countries. And that really includes getting students and academics on board and bringing practitioners and researchers together focus on solving the complex issue around climate change. Great. And yeah, that kind of leads into my next question is who, you know, if you know who your audience is. So it sounds like for you, you have a pretty broad range of, you know, the word stakeholders is not a great word but I guess groups are especially interests are people who just need to understand better SDGs in climate and local options. Definitely. I'm privileged right now we we are actually supporting the SDG publishers compact and their fellow program, a number of great opportunities they're doing there. There's a number of publishers and researchers and making information available to to practitioners and, you know, supporting green jobs initiatives, etc. I think the other important work that we're doing and it's something that we we kind of piloting to bring to Trinidad and Tobago is working with the American Geophysical Union and their thriving Earth Exchange program, there are wrong community science and empowering communities to solve issues as it relates to mitigation and adaptation. Oh, that's great. Yeah, and for anybody in the audience who's not familiar with it the the thriving Earth Exchange through the American Geophysical Union. It's a good program to know about and they're eager to partner, you know, climate scientists around the world to work on to help kind of co create solutions to environmental issues. That's great. That's exciting. And Wolfgang, so it sounds like you at the moment you're working more with journalists is that right. And what, you know, are they. Do you have a sense of kind of what audiences you're reaching through the work you're doing? We didn't quantify it. We work with in the Oxford Climate Journalism Network that is part of the Reuters Institute for the Study of Journalism at Oxford University now has wonderful full time staff. And we always invite applications and then choose a group of 100 journalists from as many countries as possible. Currently, I think the current cohort is from 72 countries. We meet together for somewhere between 20 and 30 sessions every other week, where we try to help each other build this this basic climate literacy that is about the science of course to begin with that's hugely important to not skip the science part. But then also to look at the climate crisis to use that word through different angles as a social justice issue as a geopolitical issue then also very practical questions of how to process data, how to work in data visualization or then again other operational issues how to look after the if your newsroom manager how to look after the mental health of your climate reporter. So it's a very broad curriculum, you could say, and it also creates a network where, you know, if you are from a wealthy North American or Northern European news organization. It's this learned behavior to send a reporter into one of those countries that are already much harder hit by climate change, and that already is a filtered view of what comes back. It gets filtered by who you pick to go there. It then gets retranslated to your own typically national audience. But in this network, all these colleagues from so many different regions around the world, hear each other talk about how climate change is affecting their country today and it creates a very different awareness of what is going on. Laura, I also have a question to our group, if you don't mind, very practical question. And that is what I'm struggling with is we want to convey basic climate literacy. And what I mean by that is in a typical news organization of a newspaper, there is this understanding of what a general education should look like. And as an example, you would expect from a sports editor that she or he knows the basics of their country's election system, or knows the most important writer of that country if that writer is part of the national heritage, yet even the most basic knowledge about climate change is still considered expert knowledge. I mean, the most basic such as how does the natural greenhouse effect work on earth or what are the two main greenhouse gases that cause an acceleration of climate change. And so we're wrestling with this definition of what could that basic literacy look like that we should expect and where does the expert knowledge begin. And I'm just curious to hear opinions on that. So is it, for instance, should we expect from each other to be able to explain the difference between the effects of methane and CO2? Or is that already too specialized? Or should that be general public knowledge, just like we know that a football team has 11 players? I mean, I wish it were general knowledge and I'm sure it depends on what kind of audience you're trying to reach. But I think in my opinion, we should never assume too much knowledge. I agree. I agree with that. I mean, even when I hear the word SDG, I think we shouldn't, right? Right. Yeah, I mean, talking of, you know, among ourselves and in an audience that's really interested, it makes sense. But yeah, I agree. And I think that's part of the mission too is to use the SDGs in a way that, you know, makes every story an SDG story, just like every story is a climate story. Yeah. That's a good question. And yeah, it's something I think we need to be thinking about all the time. And Abigail, when you're, so for your podcast, who, you know, who do you think of is your audience and you must have to have to think about that all the time. Like what level of specificity do you get into? How do you explain the science? What background do you think people have who are listening to you? Um, so I guess it would be important for me to like go back to how this all started. So as a young activist and a young person from Kenya specifically. COP26 was my first ever climate conference to be physically present at and going with a civil society, but you obviously don't have access to a lot of those meetings and a lot of those conversations, especially the negotiations. So I remember feeling a bit lost and not knowing exactly what to follow. I had read a paper called a five point plan that was prepared by the organization I used to work for them, and I knew what to look out for, but then it wasn't very clear. And at that time, I remember sharing what was happening on my Instagram to just random people. And I remember people were actually interested, especially from where I come from and understanding that I come, I come from a community of farmers. So I, something that related with them or something that they could relate to was, you know, explaining the impacts of climate change with, with its relation to agriculture. And so, after doing that, I realized it was real hunger for information and understanding why do we need to meet every once in a year to negotiate or have conversations about climate change. And so on coming back home, I thought of doing something that would, would something bigger that would have more reach and more audience. And that's why I settled for a podcast. So for specific audience, number one, my biggest issue was just the basic knowledge that Wolfgang came about, just sharing that information in a way that members of the community can understand and can relate to, to their day to day lives. And then secondly, being that the call that is happening this case specifically happening in Africa in Egypt to be precise, and everyone is calling it an African couple. But you all have the feeling of we can't really call it an African couple if our priorities and our issues are not well articulated. So what, what happened is the podcast is organized in three segments. So the first segment is where an activist or an expert really gets to speak about their personal journey and what it is like to do that. And when you listen to them you realize everyone has some sort of connection to nature or something they either witnessed the impacts of climate change first hand, or they saw it happening somewhere and they felt they need to do something about it. And then after the introduction is when I will talk about various topics such as loss and damage, fossil fuels, etc, etc. And then now the last part we, we get to the experts of the activists to say what their call to action is for COP 27. So you see for the first segment and the second segment, it is general information that say people in the same urban or urban areas who have access to the internet can listen. So these are people in business and these are people in civil societies who can actually use this information as advocacy tools. And then the last segment now targets the policy makers in this space, being that with the posting and the climate home news is a partner that helps us to catch this episode and this means it gets to the policy makers and it gets to the climate community. So, as Abigail as an activist by myself, I'm able to reach the normal person, and then this, the partner that helps to syndicate this episode now gets to the policy makers and the climate community. So I'd say that's how I do my thing. And then with regards to the question that Wolfgang asked, I think when we speak about climate change and say climate science, a lot of times we use numbers and statistics, which are kind of difficult for a normal person to understand and relate to. And I thought why not do something on storytelling that will allow me to actually go to communities and hear their stories because I come from a place where we're already vulnerable, and we have hardest hit by the impacts of climate change, yet the contribution is also very little. So I'm helping them understand that hey this is actually happening to you, and this is because of climate change, and earlier on this year there was really bad drought in the northern part of Kenya, it's still going on. And I remember in one of the mainstream media interviews, a community member said that the drought that is happening to them is a curse, which means they're actually feeling the impacts of climate change but they do not know that this is actually climate change and science can actually explain it. So are they really going into communities and understanding that this community specifically practice pastoralism. So how about create stories or speak to them in a way that they can relate and understand, oh animals are dying because you know the drought has become more frequent than it used to be. And then when I go to a place where there's agriculture and be like the weather patterns have changed, you can no longer plant in February as you used to, now the rains are quite, you're not too sure when it's going to come. So I'd say that is basically understanding your audience and sort of focusing on something that is more relatable to the community. That's great that's and that's excellent advice for anybody who's in in science communication like some of the strategies you're using the, you know the personal journeys the call to action the helping people understand what's happening in terms of their own experience. Those are really powerful methods. In the audience, a lot of people who are joining us our early career. Some might be on a path to a science communication career of some sort or have it be part of their job. So that's, that's fantastic for them to hear about how these are things that you can use effectively to make your stories, make your podcasts, your articles, your news coverage be more impactful and memorable and effective. That's great. Well, so please anybody you're welcome to add questions we have one for one of the, one of the, one of our colleagues at Springer Nature who helped organize this event. And he has a question for Abigail about, do you have like a, do you keep kind of a list of, of, you know, phrases that are helpful or metaphors or, you know, there are other ways of explaining things that you find have really resonate with people if you if you use a certain certain type of language. I'd say yes, and yes, because number one, when you notice the title of the podcast is actually Sahili so immediately someone sees the title of the podcast, they immediately understand or see something to do with the environment or the weather or something. So that that is one thing I use that was catchy, and understand maybe for the audience that is not for country that don't speak Sahili may not entirely relate to that. But at that time my focus was more on my community coming from Kenya and I know a number of, of African countries speak Sahili as well so that is one thing that I use to make sure that I catch the audience. And then secondly, on phrases, I noticed the more you repeat certain certain phrases for example, making them understand that Africa has only contributed about 4% to the global emissions people kind of get it, because you keep repeating it and making them understand exactly why they're called vulnerable communities exactly why they're most susceptible to the impact of climate change, and why it's very hard for us to, you know, snap back from say climate disaster such as cyclones it is. I wouldn't say I have a specific interest for now but I'd say the title of the podcast and then the repetitive nature of understanding climate change from an African context has really helped. Now that's great. Yeah, and of course, you know as science communicators we all need to think about phrases that don't work. And that's so calm, you know jargon that people don't understand acronyms that make people feel excluded from the story. We have a story coming up in Scientific American by a science communicator named Susan Joy Hassel, and she keeps a list of all the things that the climate scientists say that we think mean one thing and it actually means something else and my favorite example is positive feedback because, you know, if you think about psychology positive feedback that sounds great you know you want to get positive feedback basically just means praise. And nobody your first association is not you know melting permafrost which then changes the albedo of the northern climates and anyhow so it's fun to think about that question in both directions like what words work and what words don't work. My favorite example of what doesn't work is to speak of the 1.5 degree goal in countries that measure temperature in Fahrenheit. Yeah, that's a good one. We're still doing it. But you know, interestingly enough, if you come to the Caribbean and you say 1.5 degrees to stay alive, everyone knows what you're talking about right, because it's real to them. So I think the point that both Wolfgang and Abigail is making is that, you know, while things may, we may use some terminology, it relates to folks differently. And, you know, as communicators, we really have to know our audience and what works for them. And I'm reminded by a community that I'm supporting right now, where they've done the same thing around storytelling around some sustainable development goals. And they were surprised that even though, you know, they're 17 goals right, most people could only relate to one or two, in terms of what they do on a daily basis. So I think that shows the challenge that's in front of all of us, right, in terms of really building that awareness and relatedness, more importantly. Yeah, that's great. And, and so speaking of SDGs. Has it been helpful in your work to relate, you know, specific issues to SDG for sustainable development goals SDGs. Do you have any advice, especially for people in the audience about how you can kind of make use of this in this to do list for the planet of sustainable development goals, any, you know, any ways that you think we can use them more and more effectively to help communicate science. I mean, it's a great question, right. So, this is sustainable development goals is really a good framework. What we have found is that I know many people know this there are a number of those goals that overlap. In our communication, we tend to put them in buckets and then deal with the smaller buckets. So you have the usual triple P approach, people planning profit that folks could relate to because of course there's more interdependency that that's clearly communicated in those areas. I think the other thing for us around the SDGs is really connecting what people are experiencing to what has changed without necessarily using the terminologies. Because I think when you do that, people are more able to connect to it, they're more able to then tell others about it, and then your communication strategy becomes simpler. And in addition to what Jason just said, and I agree with all of that, not all of the SDGs but specifically climate change when you speak about that can trigger a lot of fear or a sense of helplessness of disempowerment of being overwhelmed. And there are several approaches. One is called solution centric, not only in journalism, solutions journalism, there's also a solution cinema movement, i.e. to not present the issue as an abstract issue, but to start with, yes, mentioning the challenge, but then to feature solutions that are plausible and credible. There's quite some pushback against it in journalistic circles where then journalists say well so you ask us to sugarcoat reality and to present the situation sweeter than it is or to show solutions that haven't proven themselves yet. None of that is intended by people who suggest to be more solution centric, but it's very similar to how you how you motivate yourself. You know when you need to change your lifestyle or something that is really difficult you look at the why and what you get from it. Another approach goes farther and I find is even more helpful that comes someone who's working on that is Kristen Mayer, a neuroscientist at King's College in the UK. He is also working with us in the Oxford Climate Journalism Network where he says, especially journalists, but I think the same is true also for many science communicators, rely on facts and figures and charts and statistics and it's proven and it's peer reviewed and it has been published in this credible publication and can't you see. And yes, some people respond to that but most seem to not respond to that because facts and figures. Sure they evoke authority but they don't motivate and he looked as a neuroscientist with his colleagues into what what makes us change behaviors. And what makes us change behaviors. We think first our values change through information and then we change our behaviors needs is in reality, our behaviors often change long before our values change. We first change our behaviors. And that sometimes gives us the credibility then to also change our values without feeling like a hypocrite. And the assumption is that this goes back to our our past as a species that we are effectively and we still are as we could all see during COVID when we started missing each other. We are we are herd animals of some sort. And if we see others change behaviors that's when we look and say why are they changing their behaviors and they may be onto something and we maybe should try that too. So the conclusion he drew and I'm not doing a great job at representing his decades of research, I'm sure. But the conclusion he landed at is to say, try to not frame an issue of any of the SDGs as an as an issue where you talk about the issue in abstract terms, but frame it as an action. Make it a story about people or organizations or groups doing things. And that that is something that appeals to our psyche a lot more than abstract descriptions of issues or problems. Oh, that's great advice. That's really nice. Thank you. And Abigail it sounds like that's that that's like the, the, in each of your interviews that you have with your climate activists and experts. I think you said each one includes what is your call to action. What sort of calls have, have you heard as you've been interviewing people for your podcast. I think something that has been very common now is the issue on loss and damage finance. So I recently traveled to a place in Kenya called Isiolo County, which is a semi added region in Kenya, but over the last two years, they have not received any. It is very dry and a bit challenging to even experience that and in that this water shortage, the animals are dying. It was quite graphic we came across a lot of caca on our way to that place. And so you look at these communities and they depend on on this animals for income they need. Because they sell they sell meat and milk, and also sell these animals to, to be able to get money in the house is to be able to buy food to take their kids to school to buy water is what is also becoming a big issue. And that is a very expensive commodity now. So you look at these communities and when it's adaptation and mitigation there's actually nothing. Everything is completely gone. That was really, I don't see how anyone can adapt to such a situation. And so we speak of financing for loss and damage for such communities and that was just one part. There are areas that are quite worse. And so I'd say that has been quite common with the climate activists and experts and then the issue of energy transition, but just energy transition in this case, being that there's a lot of conversation around around issues in Africa and people have a lot of different opinions about it. And then there also the aspect where Africa has great potential for renewable energy. But then again the issue of finance is a problem. So really calling while leaders and the pledges that have been made over the last couple of years to be fulfilled and immediate action for such communities and also doubling up the adaptation fund, being that you also come from communities that are actually feeling the brunt of the impacts of climate change to a great extent. So that has been quite a common thing. And I spoke to an indigenous person from a, from a big, from one of the biggest indigenous groups in Kenya, and they're also experiencing land rights issues which was quite interesting. And she spoke about how they're also losing their culture, their language to the climate crisis, which are things that we actually never think about. So they initially used to be hunters and gatherers, but then now they've had to diversify the economy they're not business people they're not interested in culture, which is completely against what their culture and values are. So it's been quite an interesting experience to speak with people and just get completely different perspective about people's lives. So, yeah, I'd say that. Thank you. And Jason on the, on the issue of, of actions, either that, you know, that you and your group push for that you're that you're seeing make a difference. Is there anything you'd like to share about that any specific examples of things that are happening that that seem you know in the solutions, you know, working towards solutions. Sure. It's interesting listening to Abigail because from our perspective as well, loss and damage and energy transition. The, the two main things that, you know, we really push on and support particularly energy transition as it relates to our own peculiar situation. I think on top of that is really billing capacity and capacity, including human capacity. So right now we're working with a couple of our tertiary institutions to really revisit their curriculum so that it is more future proof and considers more aspects around sustainability. Because we know that's where what is going to be required for us. It's where the world is going. And in so doing, really lobbying for more interdisciplinary research approaches, because a lot of these complex issues around climate change and sustainability, really cross different pathways. There's a lot of different views to that. So I'll try not to put myself in more trouble than that I may have already done. But I think the third area and just to be briefly is how do we bring the academics, the researchers and the practitioners together and ensure that there's alignment. Sometimes the information that practitioners need. They don't have access to it yet. There are many cases where the research is done and is available. The website often occurs where research may be conducted and that may not necessarily be what practitioners need to really make an input in their own specific areas. So I mean, those are just three examples that I thought I would highlight. Yeah, so people in the audience, please do feel free to to to add questions to the q amp a box. And we will, we've got a lot to talk about but yeah there's, let's see I think it looks like some have been answered already. So yeah please feel free to ask questions at any time. One of the things that I think is a challenge for communicating about SDGs about climate about solutions is the just the we're competing, whatever we communicate with just massive misinformation and disinformation and confusion and you know especially around climate that's you know some of the most the pernicious, most awful conspiracy theories are about climate science and you know we're all talking about it because we're being paid off by some powerful company that for whatever reason, the conspiracy theories never makes sense but they're quite elaborate. Is this something that you've had to deal with and do you have any strategies for how to kind of out compete misinformation or help your audience recognize that a lot of what they're hearing just isn't true. I'll take anybody. I'll take a first stab at it so it is a it is a big concern and a big issue. I think what we have seen our experience is that people recognize things have changed. So, even though there is misinformation out there, people remember what five years ago what 10 years ago used to be like, and the fact that it is significantly different right now. And that I believe is a strong opening position to to really point them in the direction that you know the changes in the environment are due to what we are as humans have done. And once you start to connect those dots, even without using some of the scientific language because you know a big part about this is relatedness as we've spoken about. And then people start to, I think, push for greater information. And then you could point them to, you know, the podcast, the different work that is occurring, and so forth so there's a lot of room for different players. Society, young folks, researchers, industry, I see industry carefully, and so forth, and it's ready to ensure that we have a message that is aligned. I would like to add something Laura, that may may be controversial I hope it isn't but it very much depends on the country you operate in of course we have so many wonderfully so so many people joining us from many different countries around the world and there's no average, but by and large in in about 40 countries where that has been measured. The percentage of outright climate science deniers is smaller than than many people think it's often far below 20% and even less than 15%. And I noticed that in several European countries which are not representative for the entire world but in several European countries and also in the United States. I think that by now news organizations almost spent too much time on trying to reach the deniers versus caring and looking after that vast majority of the population that that fully acknowledges the climate science and specifically that aspect of climate science of human made climate change and would like to know what to do. And so this this kind of journalism that still says climate change is here and it's real and it's human made. Yes, that is important and needs to be repeated, but that's not the end point should not be the end point of so much journalism anymore as it still is. We should we should have much more journalistic resource invested in in competing strategies for mitigation and adaptation. So that's that's why it is hugely important what what you're asking about how to deal with and cope with misinformation we can never stop. I think specifically journalism also needs to move beyond that because we run the risk of not providing information for the majority of our readers who are wondering what can we do and have already signaled their engagement with us. And then as a strategy for dealing with misinformation, similar to vaccines inoculation, I think is the is the best antidote is to inform and to really provide basics and narratives and also provide them in a way where people can repeat them in the bar and they're a sports club without signing like science nerds, but to really break it down into repeatable narratives that people can utilize in their own private life and that their own families dinner table. Yeah, thank you. Great points. Abigail is there is this something that you've that you've wrestled with much. I wouldn't say I have, and I completely agree with what Jason spoke about. So I'd say, just recently last week, I was in a community of women farmers, and so part of the conversation that we had was, we were asking them, what would you say has changed over the past 10 years. And someone would say I used to plant maize twice a year, but nowadays I only have to plant once. I used to to farm. I used to produce young in my farm, but I no longer do so. I had to transition and and plant ground nuts instead. So they understand from that perspective that there are things that have changed. And it's easy for you to speak to them about climate change by relating to the changes that they have seen. So they'll tell you how initially by end of February, that is when they till land for the first time, and then start planting mid punch, but then this year, as late as may they have not planted anything because there are no lanes. So they understand from that perspective and I think, like, of gang says it's very difficult. It's different for different communities you can't use one thing to explain climate change to everyone, because people experience it differently. So I'd say within misinformation, not so much, because they already experiencing climate change so people can actually understand from their own personal experiences. Abigail, I had one, one colleague from Kenya, who really surprised me along the lines of what you just said. She said, Yeah, but what do I do with science communication when so many of my listeners are being hit very hard by climate change but think it's God's punishment. Where do I even start? Yeah. We're not even discussing whether climate change is human made but the very idea of climate change happening needs to be established first. But that really drove it home to me what enormous challenges some of our colleagues are facing that I wasn't even aware of. Yeah, it's crazy. The same way I had someone say the drought is a curse. And you wonder, there's really a lot of work to be done with regards to really breaking down the complex terms used to describe climate change in a way that they can understand. And so for this particular community you see they have different technologies that they really apply, thanks to organizations that have really taken the time to teach them how to adapt how to diversify how to do to like the different ways that they can do to make sure they have enough rainwater in their funds. And it's really working for them. And when you are leaving, we also asked what would you want, say the government to do all the world leaders to do, because they're trying to describe the way that they can cope to them, but in a very simplified way and most of them would say, we want more education, because they understand the importance of education and you'd see a difference with farmers who've been through that kind of training and farmers who've not been through training and find them planting in March when there's no rain. And so they end up losing their yield and that is what they depend on to take their kids to school to have on the table, everything for medical use. So, I guess, we really need to do more in terms of education and really remembering that we have to break it down the way that they can understand. So, one of the other things I was hoping we could talk about is social media. And Abigail, you started out, you mentioned that Instagram was really one of the ways that you communicated with a wider audience and you may be expected. Do any of you have tips for how to use social media effectively to communicate about climate or other sustainable development goals, and especially any advice you might have for people in the audience who are trying to use social media themselves? Should I go first? Sure. Okay, so I'd say we're very lucky to be in a season where you have social media at your convenience, you can easily post anything without anyone limiting you. So, I'd say, like really use this platform to make an impact or really use the platform to make a change. And the good thing is, a lot of us young people are very creative and you can explain something so complex in a one minute video and people will understand and can easily understand without really having to explain climate change in very complicated terms. So, there are very many platforms we have, I've seen people trying to use Deep Talk to also do activism climate change. I do struggle a bit when it comes to social media, but I realize that's the only way to actually reach people. I really put myself out there because I was more of a policy person and be deep in papers and policy work, but then this particular podcast has really opened up a lot of these spaces for me to really speak about climate change and most importantly to amplify stories of communities. So apart from using Instagram, Facebook, LinkedIn, Twitter, Spotify, Apple Podcast, and I also decided to start up a website which is not public yet, but now for this particular website we'll have an opportunity where people can openly write about what they think about climate change, and even for those who don't understand it's a platform for them to really explain what they understand of the climate crisis, and then also most importantly to now really tell stories of communities. And I think that they're very different and the experience is very different, but then creating a platform where they're able to share their stories and their experiences, which can be shared globally and someone who's probably who has not seen the impacts of climate change first hand can learn from someone else's story from across the globe. And yeah, I just say go for it and don't be afraid to start put yourself out there and if this is what you really want to do remember you're really creating a difference, even just telling that one story about a farmer or that one story about someone who's also very important and you're making a difference. Thank you. That's great advice. I mean, it's really hard to add to what Abigail just mentioned I think she she covered all of the bases there. Maybe the only thing is, you know that there's always someone or folks who say can one person make a difference. And what I will say is, in the era of social media, the answers absolutely, particularly if you share your story and what you've been doing, how you've been impacted the actions you have taken, and by galvanizing your family your community of your peers. You know social media allows you to be quite impactful. Maybe, maybe to what Abigail and Jason just said. Add two things. One is to, yes, focus on action on what can be done to overcome that sense of disempowerment and hopelessness that climate related information can trigger. But then also to be careful to not fall into the trap of making it all about my personal carbon footprint or my personal adaptation measures. Which as we all know that can can have this unintended and sometimes intended effect by by people who use this for for almost propaganda or misinformation purposes of forgetting what the actual causes of climate change and what the role is of fossil fuels. So it needs to have that context, I think, versus only focusing on my changes in diet or whatever else is involved. The other element is to a lot of social media is still replicating a broadcast mentality of trying to use social media to reach as many people as possible and not making enough use of social media's ability to create communities of exchange. And especially again around climate change. I made a mistake when I took off from my last full time role to really study climate change in more depth. I thought I could just lock away myself away and just read read read and and only slowly realize the effect that had on my psyche and on my well being. And I was used to seeing horrendous things as a news journalist and I thought I can deal with any information no matter how threatening or demoralizing at this professional distance. But the climate crisis and these IPCC climate science reports. Once you really let it touch you they are so severe and in the futures they describe if we don't manage to prevent further further emissions that I really needed community. And so if someone asks me now what should I read I still give reading recommendations but I also always say who are you reading with. You know find a community find a reading group don't do this alone and I think that should be an element of social media also to encourage people to to not be alone in in looking into not just climate change but many of the other STG challenges. Yeah that's great advice. I think my social media of choice is Twitter and it does feel like a community or a lot of different kinds of communities. And yeah it's it's amazing what you can learn and who you can meet with with such a low barrier to entry. Yeah that's all great advice. So I think some of the people in the audience are our researchers or scientists themselves. Yeah, quick bits of advice for them about how to work with communicators how to communicate themselves their own research. I don't really talked on some some some good advice already but is there any, any other things specifically especially for like the early career researchers what how can they, you, how can they communicate better to make more of an impact. And that's a very wide question I realized. I'll take a first stab at it. So I mentioned the SDG publishers compact. And, you know, they have actually put out some top 10 tips on a number of different things, including addressing the question that you've asked their own researchers and, you know, communication and engagement. And there's some tips for publishers as well. So I think that's, that's a good starting point collaboration and really ensuring that the output of what you are researching can be easily understood by by practitioners. Whether it's in your, your abstract or so forth. And that's for the publishers out there. I know there are many in ensuring that that abstract can can really have the visibility. So, so persons could accept access it. I think that's, that's the big ones for me. Yeah, good ones. I think jargon is really important and technical language. I, I try to read science, scientific papers, but often I also find myself realizing I just don't understand it. And then I know most likely this or this journalist was assigned a train scientist will translate it for me. But scientists tend to forget I find just how much they know and and how difficult it can be to read some some science papers. So there's that. And then also to understand that journalists naturally look for they hope for the breakthrough story, which frustrates many scientists because most science happens in increments and not in leaps and bounds. And so the scientists are worried about being misrepresented by the journalist and ungrateful to the community of scientists around them that all have contributed to this. And yet they also need to understand or need to help the journalist understand what is the news, what's new here and why should I report about this versus expecting the journalist to work their way through it. There are also matchmaking organizations such as sideline that scientists should work with and many journalists also don't know about them, but they're a matchmaker where I'm not just I don't just find a meteorologist. But if I want to know something about clouds specifically to really find the right scientist for the question I have, then in many countries they are matchmaking organizations and if you don't have them in your country. It's always worth looking if there's a national weather service. Or if there's a large broadcaster that you can contact that employs meteorologists to help you with your research question. Yeah, those are great tips. Yeah, and I just put the sideline link. And yeah, I'm going to add a few more links to and any of the panelists and aren't please feel free to add more links for the audience. Our time here is so short and there's so much to talk about. And we're already we're already at the hour almost. So, I want to kind of, you know, pull out some of the big themes we talked about. And these are things that, you know, I feel like I've learned a lot from all of you on the panel, and I hope the audience has. I think some big takeaways for, for, for anybody for anybody in the audience is there's a huge power of personal stories and and telling stories that are that are memorable that are real that are emotional that are honest and generous and welcoming can really reach people in a way that sometimes the data by itself unfortunately doesn't. I think we've, we've talked about how every story is a climate story. And sometimes, you know, when you, when you really want to get help people understand climate it every everything we do unfortunately it's the story of our lifetimes it's it's changing the planet in so many ways. And it's important to kind of help people understand what's happening how the world is changing how it's changed in their lifetimes and their own experience, and kind of refer them to that as a way to make it real and to be welcoming and to make your conversation welcoming and inclusive solutions. It's really important to talk about solutions and share the share solutions in a way that that is is honest about the scope of the problem, but also that it's that it's not hopeless that there are things that we can do just putting a link into an article in Scientific American about how climate change actions are really popular like everybody wants to do something. But at least the United States a lot of people think that they're alone they don't realize that that's that climate action is something that people care so much about. I think that's, frankly, a failure of the media to, to present things in a way that that really does reflect what we know about about public opinion, and then action. You know the difference between issues yes these are very important issues but there are also actions that we can refer people to that we can help people understand that that that are part of the solutions they're part of hope that are part of helping helping you do what what your neighbors are doing and help them do the right thing. And, and then yeah amplify good information. You know, you need to amplify the work of the of everybody on the panel here on social media look for communities share reliable information share important information things that are memorable and sticky and real and actionable. Just looking for another article about how it's it's not it's it's not too late and it's not impossible. I think there's there's kind of a persistent misunderstanding that there's a lot of climate change that's baked in and there's nothing we can do about it. But that's actually not what the climate model show if we stop we drastically reduce carbon dioxide and other greenhouse gas emissions right now. It's still stabilized it's we're not doomed. We can still fix this we can you know and people need to know that that they can push for climate actions and that that's the world, everybody in the world needs that to happen. So those are some takeaways. I think, I think all of us would like to stay in touch with people in the audience. Yeah, I'll post a link. It is the climate journalism network and the next application window for journalists freelance or employed from anywhere in the world opens in within the next weeks, I'll just post the link here. Yeah, and follow us listen listen listen to Abigail's podcast. Follow good, good, good science communication to climb climate information. Thanks for being part of of climate week of climate action of working towards cop I know it's it's something we're all trying to use the energy and the convening power and the attention to to make a big difference in the world and I think together with with everybody in the audience. I think that's a good shot at it. So panelists thank you so much for joining us I really appreciate it thanks everybody in the audience and enjoy the rest of the conference it's really good to see you all. Thank you. Thank you all.