 You know doc, I just Can't help but feel like just spring guns gas rams. They're just irrelevant. They're just losing it I just I need a different perspective. I'm just I'm just so negative on this topic We need to talk to Tom Tom can help Yeah, let's go to Texas. Let's do this By the way doc, can you give me some next support because this couch is awful I don't think spring guns are and you say gas rams. I'm just gonna lump them all together Sure, they all are pushing a piston to compress air. I Don't think we're done and I'll tell you why I say that couple of years ago, I think was 28 2017 maybe Cigar came out with the ASP 20 and I would have said you couldn't do it It was a gun that cocked it like 35 foot-pounds and yet produced 20 foot-pounds in 177 and 23 and 22 caliber Smooth as a baby's bottom Nice trigger. They came out with their own they call it the match light trigger So there was some innovation in that. I don't think we're done. I think we can do better Well, we definitely do better because the guns no longer available I know that so and look there. That's a whole other ball of wax. That is a whole other. Yeah, but but I Just personally I struggle with this because you have and I understand this is not the only cost involved with buying a PCP But you have 200 to 300 dollar PCPs a little bit higher than that too. Let's go 200 to 400 dollars. All right that Blow the doors off of what a spring or gas ramp can do at further distances like a lot of these guns 50 yards is Pretty doable like very easy and you get multi-shot. You got a lot more power on tap Some of the guns like the Avenger are adjustable, you know, you got regulated guns gauntlet Avenger You know, there's a ton of stuff out there that Sure, you're gonna spend more money up front because you have to get some way to fill it, but How does that performance not render what a spring or gas ram gun does obsolete? I can't argue with anything you say, but you're going to anyway Say it all I'm gonna turn that around because the spring gun is gonna teach the person how to shoot and When they know how to shoot Tyler, they're gonna be a good shot and That's gonna reflect in everything they do in the shooting sports That's a good reason to keep the springers number two There's so many more of them Because why because that's what people think air guns are in the beginning Until they come in and they see the guns you just talked about which I got no problem with I love those guns And they're so easy to shoot as you said But you know what and I know this is an expensive one a TX 200 mark 3. Oh my god one of my favorites That's a nice gun to shoot to and it's got a great trigger and it's reasonably quiet and It moves a little bit, but if you put some of those vortex kits in it. It doesn't even move that much sure I'll still say it I'll say it tops out at 50 yards Not true because guys are shooting them 75 yards sure and I'm sure somebody's shooting them a hundred I I'm not me neither And and it's much easier to do it with a pre-charge than it is with those But there are some guys who want that Tyler There's guys who want open sights on all air guns. Sure, you know, they just don't want to shoot Yeah, so I just struggle with it and look The multi-shot springer, you know gas ram right when it came back out and for those of you that don't know, you know, they're What 10 15 years prior to what? 2017-2018 when gamma first introduced the new swarms line and you know and kind of started the multi-shot craze again You know, they were available. You know they were horrible. They didn't feed very well That was usually the issue and couldn't you dry fire them and then you break it and yeah all that jazz And things have come quite a ways since and it's very cool to see all the different options that have come to the market Over the last couple years in that realm, but I look at it and I go All right, so this was cool for a couple of years. I don't know if it's cool still I mean they're still selling. I'm not you know saying they're not cool And I'm not saying you shouldn't buy one if that's what your budget deems the thing to do You know and is most practical for you but I Look at companies like Air Arms like Y rock in Germany. They've changed nothing in Spring guns in a decade or so Other than stock design for the most part and and your and these are the stilt right now the top tier in the spring and gas ram world, so Why aren't they changing? Boy, oh boy, I'm thinking of a whole bunch of punchlines to what you just said For example, why aren't the Chinese coming out with guns that are equivalent to the guns that you just mentioned? Yeah, wampum dollars Turns out the Chinese have to compete just like everybody else and it's not easy when you live halfway around the world Not any more anyway with shipping costs through the roof and yeah, so Will they get any better? Well, I mentioned the ASP 20 which was a better gas ram gun But and for a break barrel too, let's let's qualify that because your TX 200 is an underlevel. It has a fixed barrel Many people think that makes it more accurate. I think it makes it easier to shoot accurately I don't think it necessarily Makes it more accurate. I think the added weight helps a lot more than people give it credit. Well, the added weight Yeah, that thing weighs 10 pounds. Ain't no argument about that or 9.7 or whatever, but it's close Yeah, and and the ASP was it was down around under under eight. I think it was under seven. I think so, yeah What could be done? Here's what I think All right, dad kid Dad wants a gun kid wants a gun If they could make a springer Break barrel that cocked this far and produced Six foot pounds of energy But you push it down this far and it produces 13 foot pounds of energy kind of like a beam in p1 Only they're opening it up like this and we're breaking the barrel down like this Now there's a gun that dad and kid could shoot so you make the stock a sort of a compromise Size-wise between dad and kid There's something that could be done You make it super smooth. Well, how do you do that without having it hand tuned? Well, I don't know but I do know that the ASP 20 did it with a gas spring Well, you do have it's a very small number example, but you have the uh, what was it the theobin dual magnum There were like only 120 made but this was a if I recall correctly an under lever tap loader Yeah, that you could cock twice. Yeah, and the second stroke was like 65 pounds to cock it But it was also a near near 30 foot pound 22. How about that? Yeah, well, they only made 120 of them so But there have been things that have been done in the past that that you could probably bring back to light I don't know how would they be competitive in that price market that no that's the problem Nobody's going to spend a thousand bucks For something like this. Yes dad and kid they want to spend under 300 Dad thinks he wants to spend a hundred But after he gets back from the box store, he realizes you can't do that So then he goes online. He goes to pyramid air and he says, ah, well if there was a gun that was let's say $299 that did that it doesn't have to be world-class accurate But it should be accurate. It doesn't have to have a world-class trigger, but it ought to be a decent trigger I'm not saying you start out with a clean sheet of paper, but Probably you need to come pretty close to that and you design a gun that dad and kid can shoot together That's a springer. That would be a reason now You can shut me up by saying you could do all of that with a pcp today You could which is possible. Yeah, but but again, it goes back to there's the Auxiliary costs involved, right? Yeah, you know, I will say that that one thing I thought was going to be I kind of want to say the next wave Was the 34 ems from diana, which was kind of the first at least first that I'm aware of Modular spring gun, right? Which really it's it's both you you were supposed to be able to change the power plants You could change the caliber by changing the barrel assembly You're supposed to be able to shim the barrel now I'm not saying you can't do those things for folks buying the 34 ems But I haven't seen any of those parts available. So I I'm sure they're going to come to market at some point But just, you know, that is a cool concept if nothing else that does give some life back into, you know, those those platforms You know one thing that outside of that, you know, we we talk a lot about Gas rams versus springs and things like that. But one thing that gets overlooked is recoilless guns And I think there's something to be said maybe there where you're talking about, okay How do I make something self-contained that I don't have to pump multiple times? So a multi-pump pneumatic, right? Where is a a good spring or gas ram option that Doesn't give me the negative shooting experience that I get with a typical spring or gas ram Wow, okay, and I don't want to say it's a negative shooting experience I shouldn't say that but you understand what I'm saying the difficulty. Yes. Yes Because you have the diana 54 and 56, but they're notoriously hard on scopes and they're also 700 800 dollars You know, they're hurt. I can't think of anything Since that Yeah, I mean I I will say I know of one That uh is I haven't seen it yet But I've heard that there is going to be a new entry into this area here soon Which uh from what I've been told is a different mechanism. It's not a sliding action But I don't know if it's going to be worth a damn, you know, like so I'm sure I think that's where people are going is how do I make something that is a self-contained power plant easier for the consumer to use Wow And I think that's where this all goes. Okay, personally. I think if you can't figure that out. I think they're done. That's me All right, very good No, nothing. I got nothing. Wow Yeah, you know, it was a good trip. It was good to get tom's perspective I still think gas rams and spring guns are dead. I guess I mean but Maybe there's hope. I don't know maybe not Does it really matter? I don't know. I just hope people like the video and if they do maybe they maybe they hit that thumbs up button You know, it'd be great if they subscribe to we could use some more of those. I guess keeps the sensors from destroying our channel Maybe the comment too so I can actually like have something to do at work this week. I don't know man. It's kind of crazy You don't tell val this stuff do you?