 Good day and welcome back to the Forty Autie podcast with your host Mr. Thomas Henley. Today we are going to be talking about autistic sensory support and environmental adjustments for autistic children and adults. I'm going to be talking on the adult side of things. My very lovely guest, Natasha, from I Want to Tell You Books on Instagram is going to be talking about the more children side of things. We're going to be looking at adjustments in terms of the workplace, the school, the home. So if you're looking to kind of understand your sensory profile a bit more, maybe put some things in place to help manage your sensory environments, whether it's home, whether it's out and about, this is the absurd view. Before we get started, I just want to point out the fact that yes, my camera angle has changed. I've got quite a few comments about people who have come up to me in person and sort of remarked that they feel like I'm a very small person. I'm not. I'm about six-three, which is quite off-putting to a lot of people who think I'm kind of small. I think it's because of the angle that I have the webcam at. So now I've got kind of this webcam tripod set up, hoping that it kind of looks a bit better on YouTube. Yeah, I'm coming out of my couple of weeks long burnout, feeling refreshed after a week of trying not to do as much, perhaps taking a break from the podcast, realized that I didn't put one out last week. So I apologize for that. I tried to notify people both on YouTube and on Instagram. So if you're just listening to the podcast, I realize that you might not have had that update. But anyway, I'm going to introduce our guest on the 40-odd podcast today, Natasha, who is a Instagrammer from I Want to Tell You Books, and they are a neurodiversity-affirming mom, mom, parent, of course. They focus on doctors, teachers, and parents shifting them from a deficit-based model to a more strength-based approach and neurodiversity approach in the home, which is really, really great, sort of combining those adult autism advocacy circles with the parenting stuff, always really great, awesome stuff. They focus on things like self-advocacy, self-regulation, and lots of other amazing, cool stuff. So Natasha, how are you doing today? I am doing great. Thank you so much for having me. This is exciting. I've been bingeing your podcast. Oh, you have? Yeah, I love it. What's been your favorite at the moment? I've been listening to all the women, and I shared it with my sister, who's autistic and ADHD, and she's loving it as well. It's so nice to have a focused podcast on the autistic experience. It's fantastic. Yeah, I actually was, I was looking for the rankings of my podcast recently. I don't know if I talked about this in the last episode, because I recorded it, like, a week or so ago, but I'm pretty sure that this is the world's top autism podcast, as far as I know. That's incredible. It's a bit mad. Yeah, that's, I mean, you should be proud of yourself. That's really cool. I'm kind of tentative around it because it's quite hard to gauge that kind of thing, because there's like different categories of podcasts and stuff, but in terms of like health and wellness section of autism, as far as I know, that's the top one. And it's in the think broken into about the top two percent of all podcasts so far. So we're doing well. Well done. I just wanted to point that out and just say thank you to everyone who is continually listening to the podcast and supporting my work. Yeah, I really enjoyed it. Thank you. Well, do you want to tell us a little bit about sort of how you started your Instagram stuff and why you got into this space? I wasn't looking to be a content creator. I it actually was a struggle for quite a while, figuring out my place and what to share, how to share it and that learning curve. And I think the neurodivergent tendency to want to be perfect at it and not present anything that was less than your best. That was hard for me and I am a private person as well. I didn't want to be sharing my life and certainly not my children's lives on social media for anybody to have their eyes on it. So there's definitely been a learning curve of protecting their privacy and not sharing anything that they wouldn't want to be shared and look back on, you know, in 10 years. That's a whole whole topic in itself. Yeah, I think it's it's it's definitely something that I've seen about a lot and it seems to be quite a a topic, something that kind of drives a pretty hard knife through the connection between the autism parenting and yes, artistic adult worlds. Yeah, and finding a way to educate others without compromising your integrity. That is a hard thing with social media, but it is important to find a platform to promote safe practices. My both my kids are neurodivergent. My son is autistic and my daughter is ADHD. And it came down to learning a lot myself and unlearning a lot. And I come from a neurodiverse family. So I was raised in the time before neurodiversity affirming practices. And I saw the results. I saw how it affected mental health and I refused to repeat that cycle. So I took it upon myself to learn from autistic adults and find ways to support my son and respect his needs. And then learned about our environment and how it was affecting him. And I saw that there were a lot of parents who hadn't accessed that volume of information from autistic adults. And so kind of finding a way to bridge the autistic experience into homes where parents are struggling and wanting their autistic children to be respected and supported and finding a way to present the information in a way that would be absorbed by parents. Yeah, because there's I think the the issue with a lot of autism content is it's very it's very niche down and kind of a bit jargony for a lot of people. You know, you start talking about neurodivergence, stims and sensory joy. Like most people would be like, what? Yeah, definitely really breaking down those definitions that it is a different language. And I think it's important that we're teaching our children about the language as well. It's you know, just it's not taboo. Disability disabled is not a bad word. And I'm really making it a just a transparent conversation in the home and presenting it to other families so that they can kind of feel supported as well. Yeah, I really I mean, I said this before, but I really like, you know, the idea of tying communities together because my view is is that if we can if we can all sort of band together and come up with like things that each of these groups agree with and things that they can kind of run with. And even even going so, you know, miniscule as language use, language use can be like a massive barrier for a lot of parents. A lot of people train, even autistic people trying to get into the the autism communities and sort of share their stories and ask questions. I think that when you when you within the adult autistic communities, specifically on Instagram, it's the language is very tightly sort of monitored and controlled by a lot of people. Which, you know, it's understandable. But I think sometimes it can kind of it can cause people to be kind of isolated from mentoring those spaces and sort of working with you know, parents and researchers and organisations and stuff. So I just don't think I think it's really it's a positive thing to do. I'm just wondering, like, have you had any difficulties, like because of that crossover between those two words? At the beginning, I did I had to adjust my approach and a lot of it is being humble to the feedback you're receiving. And I started on this journey and my son is almost 10 and it started off with a lot of medical intervention. He has some physical disabilities in addition to neurological. So a lot of the focus was on that. And we went through a lot of therapies that were not neurodiversity affirming. And I think back to that experience and, you know, even something like occupational therapy, which is a wonderful resource, but thinking back to what he experienced as a toddler with like exposure therapy. And we now know that that is not a safe practice for autistic people. It doesn't get them used to it. It just makes them mask their pain. So there was a lot of learning. And I think that that's what's hard for parents with a newly diagnosed autistic child is so many doctors and therapists are not up to date on. So many. Most of them, even the specialists like autism specialists are so out of date. And so it there definitely needs to be some way of presenting this information to parents with newly diagnosed diagnosed kids. But the doctors maybe are not the the gold standard of research. And maybe the what the feedback that they're giving you or the therapies that they're encouraging you to seek may not be the best resources for that information. And so I there is a learning curve for parents of going from that point to listening to autistic adults. And and it does take a lot of humility on the parents part to realize that maybe they were hurting their kids along the way. And how do I undo that trauma? Yeah. And I think there's there can be, you know, as with anything in life when you know, I never I'm a person, I never jumped to the assumption that someone's doing stuff maliciously or just wanting to. You know, but if they've been through these kind of therapy routes and it's been taught, you know, they've been encouraged to by doctors and medical professionals, I don't like. I see it more as an issue of the system rather than the person. Yes. I don't like immediately jump and say like, oh, again, this is horrible. Get this this out that I don't want. We don't want to talk to you. Shut the conversation down, that kind of thing. And, you know, it can go so far as even like people using different types of language or labels that most people that are not are not happy with, you know, for me, it's not something that I kind of focus in on too much. It's it's, you know, trying to be open and warm to other people wanting to learn. Yeah. And I think that's where a lot of people can get. They can kind of swing the other way. I mean, that there's a specific situation where I was talking to an Instagram sort of public figure person called the autism cafe. And she was she was talking about her experiences being being quite heavily bullied by the autistic community. And it's it's interesting. I mean, she she works for Autism Speaks, which is another kind of point of difficulty for a lot of autist autistic adults and she's autistic herself, right? Exactly. But I feel like, you know, even even though I've taken stances against those kind of organizations and sort of the practices and stuff, I'm still I'm still very, you know, open and compassionate. And I care about her. And I know that it's it's a very hard line to walk. But I feel like the the fire and the controversy and the sort of attacks on the bullying, it does more to shut people down than to actually produce any anything productive. And I feel like that's kind of pushed her in a way that's kind of counter to that. And, you know, you see the posts and stuff and you have you have parents and you have a lot of people following her. There is always that kind of issue around. Of autistic adults, but it's it's a complex thing. I mean, I'm sure we could talk about that for. Yeah, and I'm just really happy that it's similar to like the shift from medical model of disability to the social model of disability. You don't know what you don't know. And once you do, you need to do better. So the, you know, I think the general public doesn't realize that there is a difference between medical model and social model. But for me, I was watching my son in being tortured by life. And I had to fix that, not him, fix the environment and fix how he was being treated. And I recognized his responses to people around him. And then I started looking for the patterns of like, why is he in distress and how, especially when he was non-speaking, when he was learning his AAC device, finding ways to communicate with him to figure out how can I support him? He's going to have a visit. I know they have a visitor. Hi, we are just going outside. OK, put socks on. Have fun. He was letting me know he's going outside with his caregiver. Yeah, yeah. Well, I've I this is why I kind of I really appreciate kind of the work that you're doing, because I feel like there's a missed opportunity for for really having more backing towards improving life quality for autistic people when we have as many people on board with the same thing and the same kind of rhetoric and same kind of language. You know, if it was all connected together and a whole big group, you know, maybe we might be able to sort of fix things and push for things to be a little bit different. Yeah, because parents do want their children to be happy and safe. Yeah, of course. Yeah, and the bottom line of parenting and finding a way for our autistic children to feel safe. How do we do that? And teaching parents how to accommodate and that accommodations are a good thing. And figuring out how to make life accessible. I those are skills that parents have to learn. And there's so much unlearning about traditional parenting. Yeah, it's it's a big mountain to climb. Yes, it says indeed. Well, just to kind of push us through the sort of the questions that we have today, because we're we're talking today out again about sensory supports, environmental adjustments. I suppose the best place to start is why are sensory supports and environmental adjustments important? What do you think? And in terms of the child kind of parent side of things? It means that your child can access their community. It means that they are accessing learning opportunities with the spoon theory. We're using their spoons for the right things. If if they are in sensory overload or even approaching sensory overload, we need to be monitoring the environment and making adjustments so that they have a calm nervous system. And it means that they are open to connection and they can access communication. It basically just it makes life possible for them. And it's mental health care. Yeah, I think I like in terms of like the the adult side of things. I think, you know, you could probably say the same just for, you know, different things like, you know, in a workplace, if there's a difficult sensory environment, like in an open office plan or you're not allowed to listen to music or put earbuds in and stuff while you're working. Or even, you know, shades or something to kind of or reducing the the light exposure in an office. All of that stuff kind of adds an element of what is distracting for one. It's it can cause you a lot of stress and sort of burnout in the long run, especially if you're working like a nine to five in an office. And it doesn't really allow you space. To to do the job that you you need to do. Yeah, to do it well. Or to do it well, exactly. I think about that with my daughter's accommodations at school. The accommodations help her to be her most successful. And and I just be able to I mean, the word perform is not the right way to be able to perform at your best and and feel good about what you are producing. So I'm hearing a lot of like the well-being side of things, but also like the the productivity side of things because I know that a lot of schools, you know, that they're funding their budgets and stuff, they're all determined on what score they get from like the offset in the UK or some other kind of regulated testing here. Yep. Mm hmm. And if you're not giving a child a break to, you know, get some proprioceptive input, they are not going to do the test well. And I mean, it's unfortunate that's what the standard is. But, you know, we're those accommodations, those sensory breaks are are so important. Yeah, I think that's a note that's a good sort of element to it, because, you know, when we when we think about sensory supports, we think about removing things, but we don't often think about adding things. Which is just as important. Like stings and as you said, with movement breaks and, you know, some of the schools that I used to work with, they had these amazing like, I don't know exactly what to call them, but they're kind of this, it's like a piece of equipment, park equipment outside, where you have like a bar that you can hold on, and then there's like two swigging arms for like your legs that you can just kind of, you can drop back and forth as a two, two legs or you can you can do side side side. An elliptical machine. Yeah, yeah, sort of like that. And all the other teachers used to laugh at me because I used to I used to go on it as well, like during my breaks and just just go on it. And that should be at every school. And I feel that way, I just with that particular piece of equipment that you're describing, that's vestibular and preceptive input, which is so regulating in my daughter's classroom. She and I built a calm down corner and nice. I put a sheet over a desk to reduce that visual input and put some stim toys in there, her tools, I should say. And she has access to her noise cancelling headphones. Like all of those are so important. That's brilliant. The accommodations are sometimes on the parent side of things, I can feel like I am my does she really need these things? But the truth is she does. And in order for her to be regulated, she needs those things. And for my son, he has he's has very strong sensory needs between taking things away and adding the right things back in. It's a science making sure that his needs are being supported. So important. And I think I think like a lot of people, though, you know, if you were to kind of present that to schools or to parents, they would say like, well, how are they going to cope in the real world when there's noises and there's lights and there's all of this stuff? I'm like, you do know that you can have sensory supports out and about. Absolutely. Absolutely. And as well, I think that that's what's so important about promoting these safe practices and teaching parents is because then you have potentially we can have a whole generation of children who grow up with compassion and who care about mental health and who know how to self advocate for what they need. And they will respect somebody else who needs to access those things. It's it makes me excited for the long term payoff of if we can raise a generation of kids who know how to advocate for their needs, it it would be a much better, a much better culture. Hey, just popping on to say thank you for listening to this podcast this far. If you could do me a real solid, please make sure to rate the podcast if you're in a podcasting streaming service and do all that. Like, subscribe, comment, stuff on YouTube that I'm even send a heart in the comments if you don't feel like typing. Make sure to check out my link tree, which is always down below in the description or head over to my Instagram page at Thomas Henley UK for daily blogs, podcast updates and weekly lives. This podcast is sponsored by my favorite noise canceling noise reducing earbuds that you can adjust the volume on. Really, really great thing. They're called debuts and you can find the affiliate link down in the description of this podcast for a 15 percent off discount. Anyway, I hope you enjoy the rest of the podcast. That's all from me. I think that's that's a really important thing that you touch on in terms of self advocacy, because it's often so due to the nature of autism, being autistic and kind of not really fitting fitting in per se and struggling a bit in terms of communication. That can be really, really tough. I mean, it's tough for any any child or any adult as well. Sometimes to advocate for your own needs when there's this kind of set of normative rules that you have to apply to. And, you know, each time you deviate from that normative role, people kind of point it out and say, get back in line and do things. You've been masking for your whole life and you start to unmask. And that's a whole conversation, too. But if you can if you can support kids to where they don't have to mask or you teach them, you know, I know that there's a whole demographic of people who teach their children how to mask when it's necessary. And but for me, I think it's I mean, the bottom line in our home is I want everybody to feel safe with not masking. And if we can move with compassion and feel positive about accommodations, then we're we're helping each other to have calm nervous systems and be able to be open to connection. And I think as well, it's worth touching on the point that, you know, what is it? People we do have different sensory systems. Some things are hypersensitive. Some things are hyposensitive, insensitive or oversensitive. And but the thing is, is that sensory things affect everybody. Yes, they just affect everybody at different levels. And it's it's quite interesting talking to neurotypicals about things like stimming, because, you know, there's that there's different categories of stimming. You know, I talked to Auti and Al about sort of the sensory worlds and stimming and stuff. And there's there's like little stems and there's like those things that everyone does, like rubbing their hands or like tapping their hair. Yeah. Yeah. Or or having a snack or having a drink or, you know, there's there's so many things that people do in their life, whether they're autistic or not, that are regulating in terms of sensory is just when you when you're autistic, it's a bit different and your sensory needs are kind of some of them are a lot more, you know, you need a lot more input. And so we get these kind of big stems like rocking and spinning and the sensory joy or the autistic joy that comes from some stimming as well. That's a really interesting thing that like differs from neurotypical people. And oh, yeah, like I was I was I was at this presentation in Birmingham, it's called the emotional dysregulation, something association, maybe. EDA. And it was kind of it was funded by the the Commonwealth Games, which is it was a really cool opportunity to kind of go and speak. I did like talk about like a lexifying year. And there was this dancer called Kaia, who does this, who does like aerial based like movements and stuff. And they brought this hoop, this like structure with like a string with like a hoop on. Yeah, that's so cool. And after I did my presentation, I was just I just went to Kaia and I was like, you know, can I have a go on this? And she's like, yeah, sure. And then I just sat on it and she was like showing me different techniques and stuff. And then at the end, she like spanned me around like multiple times is like really, really fast to miss a look really funny for, you know, a six foot guy, six foot. Do you love it, though? Oh, it was amazing. I it's the same with like roller coasters and theme parks and stuff. There is just no comparison to the amount of euphoria that I feel from spinning and like moving and rocking. And it's like I I will never forget snorkeling and Maui and like snorkeling with fish and turtles and coral and just like that was the ultimate experience like sensory experience for me. And you got like the noise being done by the water. And you see all the light and yeah. Well, I there was no getting me out of the water. I actually I saw a turtle for the first time in the wild in Turkey. It was it was really cool. We thought it was a rock. We kind of on these like pedal boats got the horrible to to use. But we're on these pedal boats in this like massive lake and stuff. And there was these there was this like sort of thing just poking up. And we were like, is that a turtle or is that a rock? Because we know that turtles are around here and it was a turtle. And we basically just followed it around for about an hour. That's awesome. We weren't getting we weren't getting too close and like distressing or anything. But yeah. And they could bite you or touching it. Yeah. But yeah, it just kind of I was just kind of observing it was really cool. I love stuff like that. I like I mean, we could talk about the the the morals and stuff. Yeah, occasions for yeah. Aquatics places with like green spaces and nature. Yeah. That's that's a big part of our life. I love aquariums, but I'm also very aware that they use excessive amounts of volume on a lot of their creatures. So I tend not to go anywhere now. You should look into it. It's a bit bit insane what they do. My new special interest. Yeah. But so so we kind of have an idea of why they're important. And we know that for a fact, you know, it doesn't matter if the world has other sensory things that are going to occur. You can always have your sensory aids, aids with you. It's something that I do. Something that I do as an autistic adult. We don't leave the house without the headphones. Some glasses. We actually I just got my son some new lenses. It's called FL 41 lens. And it's kind of like a rose colored lens. And it does eliminate certain wavelengths of light. And it had his neurologist and ophthalmologist both recommended it. And it has alleviated his migraines. He doesn't need pain medication anymore because he's wearing them, which is really interesting. So I have some some some blue light glasses. I actually got them because I think so. Like the computer blue light glasses, it's different from that. But the I think it just it shows the value of these tools and that it's alleviating pain. And if you can look at sensory overwhelm as a painful experience, and that can like help parents to register that our kids aren't just being dramatic or picky. They are genuinely experiencing life in a different way and in distress. So looking for ways to alleviate pain that comes from sensory. We have lots of different ways that we accommodate his needs. When we drive with the heater does not get turned on. The radio doesn't get turned on. We're really conscientious of when we roll the windows down. And I also have taught him scripts for advocating for his needs. He's really sensitive to people talking and I sensitive to my own voice. I realized this recently. I realized it because I have these. If I just kind of insert this, I have like this collaboration affiliate thing going with this company called D Buds DB. Nice. They have these like adjustable noise cancelling earbuds that I really like. And I realized from wearing them, like even on like the low setting of like minus 12 decibels, it was like my voice would get louder just naturally to a point where most people would consider it to be like a normal volume, whereas when I don't have them in, I'm very quiet and very soft spoken. And it's because me speaking like too loud actually causes me to stress. Yeah, like my own voice to me. There are certain voices my son does not deal well with and just kind of conversations in general. And kind of a side note, it's so important that we're not talking about our kids in front of them. This isn't like sensory based, but only conversation topic. Or anyone, anyone in front of them. Yes, we don't talk about people like they are not in the room. That's just a really important thing. With my grandma, who she has Alzheimer's and always get really frustrated when like like the staff come over to talk about her in front in front of us. I mean, you know, yeah, it's it's just doesn't feel right. You know, it's that's that's one of those parenting things that you that parents need to learn immediately, not years later. No, because they don't they don't clock that the kids are actually listening in. Yeah. And the doctors like the doctors should know at this point the therapist that if we're rehashing all of the crises since the last appointment and the child is in their listening to all of their everything, it is it's not kind. It's this is not compassionate. This is not affirming. So that's just kind of a lesson learned that parents like we should be telling parents this when the diagnosis comes not any. You know, it even happens in, you know, I was watching that show where I love on the spectrum and I even saw that that happened between like the camera crew, the interviewers and the parents of this this one guy. I can't remember what his name is. This is kind of the big star of the show, but they were talking about him in front in front of them in front of them. I was just like, oh, my God, they literally just don't think that they have have the ability to process what they're saying. Like if they're not looking directly at them and they're doing their own thing, that they they don't have ears and can't like, you know, so it's yeah. And it comes down to the presumed competence also. We need to be honoring our kids and honoring autistic people as whole people. Yeah, it's so important. I think it's really great that we're talking about these kind of wider things. I'm just wondering if we can kind of focus in on like the the sensory aspect of things again. You know, it's it's it's great. It's great to hear. I think it's some some really useful advice that would be helpful to a lot of people. I guess, you know, in we've kind of understood why it's important to have these adjustments and these sensory supports. But what supports can an autistic adult or I'll do the adult part again. But and or a parent of an autistic child use to reduce sensory things like where with where could they start? Well, I my starting place and what I encourage parents to do as well is do a like assessment of your home. What are where are the sounds coming from? Where are the smells coming from? And for our home, I keep small kitchen appliances in the garage. So the coffee grinder, the blender, those are in the garage. I close the door behind me to use them. I'm really aware of the cleaners that we use and soaps and detergents, unscented. I close the curtains if there's a lot of like bright sunshine or contrasting. I'll try to close the curtains before my son comes in the room, especially in the morning, going from dark to light, that big contrast. We've replaced fans, it's like our bathroom fan. We replaced them. Oh, hey, there's yeah. It's the ones that connect to the lights when you put the lights on as well. Yes, that's and even in the in the community, we keep track of what bathrooms have fans that that come on with the light switch. And that kind of goes along with the assessment thing of of during your due diligence, I I look for soft materials. So replacing anything that has buttons or zippers or feels scratchy, especially if you have a person who experiences self-injurious behaviors, making sure that you're not pulling in a pillow that has buttons and zippers, that would be dangerous. So you can also look at your decor. Yeah, maybe you're you have too many colors and it's visually too much input. You can look at if the if your child or the person, autistic person has spatial awareness challenges, you know, can you put some cushions on the corners so that they're not injuring themselves because they're spatial awareness? A lot of it just really is being diligent in assessing the environment. And to say that that kind of because I would agree with you as well. I think, you know, the best course of action is to remove things at the source. You know, you want to remove things before adding in things that could help. Yeah, because I feel like that's, you know, if you can remove the sources of the stress, it's better than having the sources of stress or having ways to ways to deal with that stress. You just want to get rid of it fast. So there's it's just not a stressful environment. Maybe this isn't the time to run the dishwasher. You know, the that for my son, it's hard for him to eat if the dishwasher is running. So I'll just put on pause and really like that it's not a big deal. And, you know, in terms of adding things back in, we have a swing and when my kids stop using it, I know it's time to put a different swing attachment up. And for my daughter, I use the TheraPressure brush or lotion. And we talk a TheraPressure brush. They call it the Wilburger protocol, but we don't follow it exactly. But it's kind of like a little silicone bristles that fold easily. And it gives some good for preceptive input. You just do long strokes, like on the arms, legs or the back. And she actually will take it with her to school in her pocket and just use it on the palms of her hands. And it means to get one of those. It's pretty cool. And it's it just gives them nice deep pressure. And it was actually is a two different occupational therapists have recommended it a different one for my son and one for my daughter at different times for different purposes. But she really seeks that out and lotion for her as well. If she comes home dysregulated, that's kind of one of the first tools. I'll be like, OK, let me let's do like a little lotion on your arms and co-regulate. But removing sensory input and then pulling in the right sensory input is is so important. He has a lot of cool lights. So they, you know, like the galaxy projector lights that has been successful. Oh, I love those things. That's really fun. Pulled this out on on the OTNL podcast. Oh, my God, I haven't put my flashy thing on in the background. The usual. Oh, it's not it's not connected. It's good. I've got I've got I've got this. I'll put it on in a sec. But I've got this like which I really love. I also had this this jellyfish light as well, but I just haven't. I haven't put the batteries in in a while and I need to get on that because it is like if I'm like working and I'm just like I need to have a little bit of a break. I can just sort of stare at the jellyfish listen to music. I think that that's really important. I know the focus is autism, but with ADHD and because they are, you know, co-occurring so frequently adding in that that hit of dopamine with the cool lights or the music to stem to sometimes we'll do like a piece of gum or a piece of candy just to get get us motivated. You know, the body doubling, there are so many tools and when you look at it like tools, it helps us to to cope and and be the person that we want to be like nobody wants to be dysregulated. So if you're looking at sensory input like that, it makes sense. Yeah, I think from from the kind of the autistic adult side, I think, you know, a lot of those things could definitely be transferable. You know, whether you're a child or an adult, you can use stuff like that. It's like I recently did a post on oral motor needs. And a lot of people didn't even know what they were and that they had them and a lot of people like bite their lips and like, you know, grind the teeth or, you know, snack a lot. That was a big one for me. Yeah, I just wasn't getting that that oral motor stimulation. So, you know, things like chewing things is quite a big thing. Yeah, we have a collection of chewy, chewed necklaces. Yeah, yeah. Or you can be like carrots and schools from it from what I've heard. They're not the most like they're not the most accommodating. They're the most accommodating for that. Like, you know, that's a child thing, like, you know, you know. My daughter has heard so many rude comments about her chewed necklaces so many times. It's terrible. Yeah, and trying to teach her how to advocate for why she needs it. She's no, she's not teething and no, she's not a baby. This is not a baby teething necklace. Like it helps her with sensory input and combat anxiety. The advocating is relentless, but that's what it's so important to teach our kids to advocate for themselves. She's not always around them, especially if they go to school, you know, and it's hard, isn't it? It is hard. You know, in terms of like sensory support for adults, I'd say, you know, common things to use would be sunglasses or like what you're saying about those FD-FD-41. And FL-41. Yeah. FL-41, nearly get it. Yeah. The things like those can be helpful. I mean, my belief like glasses help. They actually help more with calming me than ice cream. But I find those quite helpful. There's also things like headphones, earbuds, ear defenders, the D-Bud earplugs. I use loops. They're probably similar. Yeah. And also things, sensory toys, you know, it could be things like acupressure rings, which I really like. You can just put on your finger. You can keep it in your pocket. They're just things that you can just roll up and down your finger. And it's quite sort of proprioceptive in that sense. There's also compression clothes, which I actually utilized a lot when I was a teenager. Like, you know, you get those compression clothes like sports and stuff. I find that a lot of my anxiety comes in through my legs. Like it's the first place that really starts to become an issue when I get anxious or overloaded. So I used to wear compression bottoms like under my school clothes. That really helped. For a lot of people, I think sometimes people like tight clothing. Sometimes people like loose clothing. I'm definitely on the tight clothing side of things. But I mean, it could be just something simple like opting for wearing some stylish joggers, some trainers that kind of look a bit more formal, even, you know, softer hoodies, hats. You know, there could be a lot of things that you could use sort of on a daily basis. Hats and ladies are one of my staples. Even at home, you know. Utilize any flaws that you have to lay on them if you're feeling stressed. That's what I do. It's like I come home from a speaking event or a hard day and I'll just lay on the living room floor and chat to my mum about like my day and stuff. And that really helps doing like stretchers and things like that. Stretching. A lot of people find weighted blankets or weighted toys, plushies, quite helpful for them. It's not something that I like. I feel a bit restricted. I like to move around a lot. But I've heard that it can be quite helpful for some people. There's this company called Fidget Gem. No, Fidget Gem. I'm combining company names. Fidget Bum. I don't know if they're still going on, but I used to chat to their sort of company founder and they do these. It's kind of like a sock formatress. And it provides the pressure through like the tension of the elastic material rather than the weight of the blanket. And you can sort of move around in it and you can like adjust the tightness of it and stuff. And that has been really helpful for me. I still don't know if they do stuff like that, but it might be worth having a look at that kind of thing. I think the issue was with it is that the actual product, it worked really well. But the problem was it kind of looks a bit restrictive. And they didn't know whether it would kind of get past health checks and stuff because, you know, it is like basically you kind of binding yourself to the bed a little bit. But I think that could be problematic. Yeah, exactly. But I see the intention. My husband definitely he likes the sheets to be super tight and kind of like a body sock that is used for that proprioceptive input. I could see like Russian children get where they get like swaddled after they get. Yeah. I like swaddling for babies. Like that's a common practice. And from the sensory perspective, like now we can see why do babies love to be swaddled? It's not just the feeling of being in the womb. It's that deep pressure and that need doesn't just vanish because they turn into a toddler. I mean, I quite like to go through perhaps some of the things that I use. I mean, just just for examples, just things that I have about fidget cubes, different things that you can push and click and fiddle with if you if you're feeling like you need to some for your hands. There's the typical fidget spinners. Of course, I've gone for a very gothic style school fidget spinner I got from Thailand. And there's also this if we can I find them like massage and deep pressure and vibration really helpful. So I have this sort of this foot massager that I have under my desk that I can put my foot on and it just vibrates and it's got like these rolly things that you can sort of use just having that under my desk. Yeah, sure. It kind of resonates throughout the house a little bit, but if it helps you complete the task. Yeah, that's good. I'll simply having a blanket that I can just kind of put over myself and just, you know, just stuff like that, little things like that. It kind of adds up. It does. Especially if you you struggle like focusing and stuff just having different things that you can do to kind of modify your central environment on a daily is quite it's quite useful. Yeah. And then lastly, there's noise cancelling headphones of course and music. Yeah. That's a big one. And just to note that, but if you are assessing somebody else's sensory needs, like as a parent, that it's not going to be the exact same every day. And just recognizing that maybe yesterday they needed to spin, but today they need to run like just recognizing that it's not like they talk a lot about sensory diet. And just recognizing that that's something that is important to be added to the conversation is that and maybe their capacity for it changes day to day. What they could tolerate yesterday is intolerable today. That's how it works. It's just so important to recognize that. Yes, absolutely. The compiling effect of appointments and demands placed upon them, just recognizing that it's not the same every day. Sure. I know we've talked a lot. I think we kind of touched on the third question, sort of about terms of like adjustments in the home. I mean, I could go through some of the things that have been quite useful for me. Dimmer switches. Obviously big, big one. Just being able to reduce the intensity of lights that you have. That's a really, really important thing. I actually, I have this one of those bulbs, those light changing bulbs that you can connect to Alexa. I got it for like 20 quid. Just replace my old bulb. And I can, I can ask Alexa to like put it to like 5%, 10%, 20, 30, 40, you know. And that really helps, but I can also, because it's a color changing one, I can also adjust the light. So sometimes, you know, in the morning, if I want to get up, then I will ask Alexa to turn on the light blue to kind of mimic that, that kind of waking cycle thing. And then at night time, I'll have it to set, set to orange to like really, really dark orange to kind of reduce the blue light. And if I'm not really helpful, and especially paying dividends to the fact that a lot of people struggle with agoraphobia or going outside and spend, tend to be more, at least spend a lot of time isolated indoors. Just having those like that ability to adjust some light or adjust your environment in little ways throughout the day. It's really good for your mental health. Yeah, I agree. You know, I could, I could probably say that the same thing could be said for my use of music. Anytime I do podcasts, anytime that I speak, I'm always listening to music, which is, it's kind of like that. That thing that I can sort of tie into, you know, people talk about having a space to work and having a space to rest. Well, that's how I kind of get around it and, you know, adjust my environment. I think as well, opting for carpets rather than flaws, just because of the coldness on your feet. And also their echoes and stuff. That's what I was thinking also. And there's really strange dynamics. I'm not very good at keeping tidy and clean, but I also really hate clutter. So there's also a bit of effort from my part to kind of make sure that things are clean and there's not too much clutter everywhere because it definitely does have an impact on my mental health. Positively when it's not cluttered. Negatively when it is. Me too. I think switching out bulbs and appliances that have that electrical hum. Yeah. Clocks at TikTok. Clocks at TikTok. Yeah, definitely that's a big one. Can't stand those things. What else? I think another thing that people overlook a lot is heaters and generators. Where is it in the house and is there any noise-reducing material for that? We've actually put up the noise-canceling foam panels, like what they would use in a music studio. We put that on the interior of the door that houses our furnace. Well, there's two doors and we put up on both sides and it did just kind of reduce a bit of the sound. It didn't cancel it entirely but it helped. Yeah. Because my son is keenly aware of the sound and we talked about the thermostat. I think that transparency about why it's coming on and when to anticipate it. Teaching the skill of how to rationalize why things are the way they are and why this sensory thing is happening. I think as well, definitely because in the perfect world we'd be able to control a sensory environment to a T. But it's not always possible. Sometimes you have neighbors, sometimes you have- Yes. ...flats and there's people next to you next door and you can't always control that. I think having things that are quite calming for you, like a desk fan, something that produces white noise or something. Or even just using sensory supports like headphones or earphones to manage environments where you don't have that control. I think it's really important and especially for me, the thinking of the stims that I have, wind in my face. Every time I go in a car, every time that I can, I'll roll down the window. Like, stick my head out the window. I have the tongue flapping like Skibidoo. That's my daughter. I love that. I pretty much always, when I'm trying to relax, I'll stick my fan on because it does produce that background noise that I can tolerate and that I like. And it also has that wind element. I've had a lot of people use that for sleep, which is interesting. You have to be careful with that though. I like the temperature. Temperature. Temperature of the home. That's a good thing. Like the cool air, warm blanket ratio. It's another thing to be aware of that sensory experience. Yeah, because we're not always aware of stuff like that either. Temperature changes and stuff because the way that I can tell when I'm cold is when I start shivering. And the way that I can tell when I'm hot is when I start sweating. And finding the middle ground in between that is sometimes quite hard. It's like that inter receptive kind of elements of it. Yeah. And the weather again is something we can't control. And the wind, like you were mentioning, or like the raindrops on your skin, the sound of thunder. And we now check the weather report every day to help my son anticipate what kind of weather are we going to have today. And if thunder and lightning is in the forecast, you know, we take a lot of measures to help him feel comfortable. And if that means headphones or making his face extra cozy and sitting close to each other so he can co-regulate. I just really not discounting the impact that that sensory has on a person. It's really interesting. Well, I guess like, you know, a natural follow on from sort of monitoring home environments would be, you know, in an ideal world or perhaps a world where your managers or people around you might listen to, you know, listen to you about sensory, sensory related things. What kind of workplace or public space adjustments do you think would be really helpful? You know, accessing the community is a human right. And of course, on my side as the parent, I'm keeping note of what places offer sensory accommodations. I, when my son hospitals are the worst. Oh, man. But even like a movie theater offering a sensory time or a coffee shop making it family friendly grocery stores could offer sensory hours. Playgrounds should be enforcing dogs on leashes. Any place, any community and space could be replacing their light bulbs to take the fluorescent light bulbs out. Last week I actually called a restaurant. My son was open to going into a restaurant having lunch and we make sure that we go right when they open for lunchtime. So it's not busy. Yeah. I actually called ahead of time to ask to place our order so that it would be ready when we walked in. He wouldn't have to sit and wait. And they told me no. And I was a bit shocked. It's such an easy accommodation. They said no, you can order from your table and it just kind of makes it clear how much work there is to do still. And, but these are opportunities for businesses to be more inclusive. And it's something that I would like to, it's on my goal list is to figure out how to help the community spaces be more inclusive and accommodating for disabled people, for autistic people. I find it very, it's very interesting because a lot of the time when, because I have sort of some links into that world of doing like sensory adjustments for, like I did one as part of my part time job at a company called NDTI, an organization charity. And they have a section of the business which does sensory reviews of like, like housing spaces for people with disabilities. They also go into workplaces and do assessments and they, you know, they do all these kind of things. They have like a team of autistic people who go in and basically just check and test and, you know, look at all the sensory aspects that could be improved. And also, I was part of a project with this, this children's hospital called Alderhay, Alderhay Hospital in the UK. You know, obviously the hospital is the place that I think of the most when I think of the downs, the really negative side of not managing sensory environments because the hospital is supposed to be a place that you go to when you need help, when your health is in difficulty. And a lot of autistic people will actually put off getting help for stuff because they know that they're going to have to go into a hospital. You've got those aspects of the fluorescent lights, the reflective floors, the scented cleaning products, the coffee lounges, the busy waiting rooms. The beeping machines. The beeping machines. Other people under stress. Yeah. There's so many aspects to that environment. I mean, not even talking about, you know, getting shots. Yeah, not even like the heavy stuff. It's heavy just being in the presence of a hospital is a lot to deal with, let alone if you're having a medical procedure. And that's a really big issue because if we kind of, if you instill that these hospitals are a negative place at a young age or even places like the dentist or the hairdresser's being others, that can really impact someone's ability to, you know, get their teeth sorted out, access health care, get their hair cut. It's causing trauma. Exactly. So we did a lot of adjustments there. There was a lot of talk about, you know, monitoring their contrast, providing sensory safe spaces, of course, adjusting the lights, offering sensory supports to be used, you know, for situations where you can't control the noise due to the amount of people there. Just little things like that. We kind of did some sensory training to make some of the hospital staff more aware of these things and be a bit more proactive in talking to the young people about the changes that they're making and stuff. Just little things like that, I think, can be really, really useful in those public settings. And quite often they're not very expensive or they're very cheap. They're just adjustments. Yeah, you just need someone to go in and be accountable and actually do the damn work, which is often the hardest thing about any workplaces or institutions or organizations, public spaces. It's getting someone to actually just go in and do it or just commission someone to do it. It's just so complex. It is complex. And I like how you said it's about being proactive. We don't need to just do a Band-Aid fix. We're not treating the outside external behavior, but we're actually looking at making the environment safe. Well, I think that's what I'd think. I have in my head. It's never going to be a foolproof way to just go up to your managers and say, can you do some sensory improvement work in the office? Can I not work in an open space office? Can I wear my earbuds? Can I listen to music? Can I put sunglasses on? And it's very complex because I know a lot of people don't disclose that they're autistic. So that's like an added complexity. I'm not really sure about how to kind of fix that aspect of things, but I would definitely point you to sending to your manager or sending to an organization, someone that you perhaps trust to sort of help you in that if you can, if you have someone like that. There's the It's Not Rocket Science report by NDTI. And that's a pretty, pretty comprehensive kind of look at the types of issues, sensory issues within the workplace and what can be done. And the interesting thing that you'll find is that these sensory adjustments help everybody. At the start, everybody has sensory needs and things that they don't like and it's not necessarily always an autism thing. You can have sensory processing differences and not be autistic. It's very highly tied together, but it's not always the case. And even for people who don't have those processing differences, making those sensory adjustments will impact everybody positively. Yes, improve the work environment. Well, I think we've had sort of a really practical and theoretical sort of discussion about like the different aspects of sensory things. I think there's one thing that I kind of wanted to add in just for people's knowledge before we kind of try to round up and end the podcast. I think it's really important to understand the the terms sensory seeking and sensory avoidant because these things are even adding into that sensory defensiveness. Because as we know, senses are not they're not so clean cut and like someone's hypersensitive, so they hate all light. Not true. They might love certain lights and they might love certain lights only when they can control that said light. So there's always an aspect of individualization for each thing is it's not so easy as saying are the hypersensitive to that hypersensitive to that and just kind of listing things off. It's very individual to the person. Whilst I hate background noise and people talking, I love listening to heavy metal and rap and just really loud, angry, high energy music. And that's just that's just one of the examples, you know, I hate white lights, but I love bright flashing disco lights and things like that. They're just absolutely I absolutely love them. So there's the sensory seeking, which is obviously seeking out that thing. And it doesn't necessarily have to be tied to hyper or hyposensitivities. It tends to be you tend to seek out stuff if you hyposensitive to it, but it's not always the case. Stimming tends to be for things that you hypersensitive to as well. Sensory joy tends to come in with those hypersensitivities. Not always, but that's just just a kind of a trend that I've noticed. And also sensory avoidant, which I suppose is kind of the most important in terms of reducing sensory distress. And I think the last last thing that I said was sensory defensiveness and that's like what I was saying about control over sensory environments. If there's an element of control involved by the person, by the child, by the by the adult over that sensory environment. Sometimes they can tolerate very, very, very strong sensory input. But as long as they can control it, they're fine with it. The issue is, is when it's kind of thrust upon you, it's like I always give the example of, you know, I love hugs. But if you come up to me and just give me a hug out of the blue, I'm probably going to pull away and just be a bit like, oh, or you put your hand on my shoulder. I'm like, oh, okay. It's like autonomy. Yeah. And so having control over it because, you know, being prepared for things is important as well. But yeah. That's all I had to say. Have you got anything else that you'd like to sort of add on before we go to song of the day? Sensory seeker and sensory avoider. I think it's important to note that you can be both a seeker on visual input or spicy foods, but also avoidant of background noises and hugs. You can absolutely be both in recognizing in our kids what they seek and what they avoid and finding ways to honor it. Brilliant. Well, it's been really great talking to you, Natasha. Just wondering, have you remembered about the song of the day or did I forget to ask you about it? I did remember. Nope. You told me about it. Yes. I did have to kind of think about it. Did I want to do like a song that I like or do I want to do a song that has some depth? And of course I had to go for the depth. Okay. And I went for Show Yourself from Frozen 2 by Idina Mendez. Mendez. Mendez. Yeah. But Show Yourself from Frozen 2. Mendez. Okay. And then I shared it with my sister when she was going through her autism diagnosis and I feel like it is such a perfect representation of late diagnosed autistic female, especially learning how to unmask and who am I without the mask. I think even the video from the movie is really powerful, but I think Frozen 2 in its entirety has a lot of implication for the autistic late diagnosed woman. It's definitely popular with a lot of autistic kids. Yeah. And Show Yourself was at the beginning of the movie and that's like where she begins to unmask and then, or no, no, sorry, the other one. Anyway. Yeah. I'm going to say it's not my special interest, but I appreciate it. Well, Frozen's not my special interest either, but I've seen it because I have a daughter. Yeah. But the experience of being female and learning how to unmask, I think Show Yourself is a great representation of that. Thank you. Well, I will add that to the Fortiotti song of the day playlist, which is always down in the description. So if you have enjoyed this episode, please make sure to rate it. If you're on Spotify, Apple, Google, all of that stuff. And if you're watching over on YouTube, please make sure to give it a like and a subscribe. Comment down below a blue heart or a heart of any kind. If you don't feel like writing a long comment because that will do absolute wonders for me getting this podcast out to more people. And it would, I would really appreciate it. I'm kind of in the process of setting up my business and I've been talking about it for a while. I realized that it's April now. And I said that it would be around April that I get my stuff sorted out and everything. But there's, there's been a lot of changes within my own life in terms of work and my advocacy work and setting up the different aspects of my business. So I'm not sure how long that's going to take to really set up. I am also switching from, from doing a more of a coach coaching role to a consultancy role. And basically all that means is that I won't be coaching people through a process and I will be actually able to talk to people one to one and give my opinions as an autistic adult, which I feel like provides me a lot more ability to speak freely without, you know, having to be careful about what you say and, you know, perhaps having more of an approach of guiding people, you know, I feel like, I feel like consultancy probably fits me a lot better. So it's basically going to be the same thing. It's just without all the annoying formalities and forms, things like that. And yeah, if you, if you do enjoy the podcast, please head over to my Instagram at Thomas Henley UK. And I'm realizing that this frozen song is becoming very loud. So I'm just going to turn that down. I'm listening to it now in the background. It's getting bit too. Yeah. Last thing, what was it going to say? Yeah, Instagram. You can find updates about the podcast and the other stuff that I do as well as fully comprehensive blogs every day of the week where you can learn about different aspects of autism, whether you're autistic or not, whether you're a parent or whether you're an autistic adult. Always really great stuff to learn from and it's free. So please head over there, give it a follow, check out my stuff. This podcast is sort of loosely sponsored by Debuts, which I did sort of allude to earlier. If you want to go check out them below, I'll put a link to my affiliate link. I'll get a small commission from that and you get about a 15% discount on them. Really love them. Really, really encourage anyone to kind of check it out, have a look at them. They've been amazing for me sort of around about at the gym, especially when I'm going to the gym with my dad and I don't have my music on. It can be really important for reducing that background noise. So yeah, Natasha, where can people find you? Where would you like for people to go? I am mainly on Instagram. I want to tell you books and I focus on that platform. Cool. Well, I will put that down in the description as per usual. Last question, Natasha. Have you enjoyed your 40 or T experience? So much. Thank you for having me. It's a treat for me to be here. Yeah. And you, well, that sounded very abrupt. What am I talking about? I get a bit loopy. I haven't eaten much today. I'm like, my brain's, my brain's running, running a bit. Oh my God. I loved being here. I am such an honor. The guests that you have had on your podcast are people that I admire and I respect so much. And so to be part of that group is very special to me. You're a very good speaker. I will tell you that you do have a talent for speaking. I get very, very nervous. Well, you did amazing. You did really well. I would definitely encourage you to get more involved in whether it's like videos or podcasts or more interviews because you've got the knack for it, I would say. Thanks. It terrifies me. Yeah. Well, thank you very much for watching or listening to the 40 or T podcast. Really lovely to have you on today listening to us. Share everything about autism, sensory experiences, sensory support, sensory aids, whatever you want to call them. And more or less making your life a little bit easier and less sensory overloading and less anxiety provoking. I hope that you've been able to take something from this podcast, whether you are a parent or an autistic adult like myself. And yeah, I will see you in another episode of the 40 or T podcast next week. See you later, guys.