 Okay, you're live and recording. Thank you, Sean. Are you making George host. Yeah. So seeing the presence of a quorum. It is 631. And I'm going to call this. Session of town services and outreach committee to order. We are being recorded and I'm first going to. Actually, let me just read the introduction pursuant to chapter 20 of the acts of 2021. This meeting will be conducted by remote means members of the public who wish to access the meeting. May do so via zoom or by telephone. And I can give instructions for that later if needed. No in-person attendance of members of the public will be permitted, but every effort will be made to ensure that the public can adequately access the proceedings in real time. So we're going to start with the presentation. And we'll start with the presentation. You know, via technological means. Just to see that everyone can be heard. Start with Alyssa. And Andy. Thank you. And Paul. Present. Thank you. And feel for it. If you're there. Just so we know we can hear us and be heard. Yes. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for being able to go away. If you would like. Thank you. You're certainly welcome to stay. Nope. Thank you. All right. So we have. So first of all, I've been asked to serve as an interim or temporary chair for this evening. Our chair, has been forced by family refer family reasons to step away from the chairmanship. And that's why I'm. Doing what I'm doing. And our vice chair, Evan Ross is at a wedding. He seems to be at weddings a lot lately. I don't understand, but anyway, so that's why we're where we are this evening. We have general public comment on the agenda. So let me just take a quick look and see if I can see, I see. One attendee and I see a hand up. And it is Tracy's at the end. So I'm going to. Allow Tracy to speak. And Tracy. This is public comments. So you have three minutes and. Please identify yourself and your. Address and then please speak. Okay. So you don't. Hi, this is Tracy's. I am the chair of the tack. I live in precinct four. I used to. I used to become a panelist, but I guess I'll just get used to being this way. So the tack just. We did have a tack meeting scheduled for today. We did not have a quorum. We did have a quorum meeting scheduled for today. We did have a quorum meeting scheduled for today. We did have a quorum meeting scheduled for today. North pleasant street project from Halleck to triangle streets. I noticed that this is on your agenda. So. If you don't want to get into too many details, I can always stay. And Guilford was there too. Good. So maybe when we come to that, which would be very soon. We'll just. You can stay where you are. And, but no reason for you to go into it now. I think that's a good question. I think that's a good question. I think that's a good question when we turn to that discussion. I guess the main question. One main comment from the group that was there tonight is that. One of the tack members who lives in the neighborhood, like really does think that it makes a big difference on that street when the students are back. And the students will be, you know, moving in at the end of August. So I think that's a good question. So yeah, that's great. I think that's a good question. Good. So you definitely would like an extension time extension. We can, we can speak to that more if you want me to speak later. Okay. Good. All right. So I see no one else in the public present. So we're going to move on to action items. We do not have any time management appointments. This evening, Again, I don't know if we want to take it up now, but we are. I believe maybe we should just make this decision together, the three of us formerly that we are going to have a special meeting of TSO, a week from, I'm sorry, Monday, which is September, August 9. That's 630. And we will be taking up town manager appointments at that point. I have canvas the other two members of the committee. So I don't know if we need to do anything formal, but. So that's what we're the understanding is that that we will do that. You posted the meeting. Yes, thanks to Alyssa who stepped into breach on the meeting has been posted and all the appointments are there with the names. And so we're set to go and the only item on the agenda would be the town manager appointments and hopefully that would not take too much time. We're certainly will take some time because there's a sizable number of them, but Alyssa your hand is up. Go ahead. Yeah, Angela really scrambled to support doing that because when I originally volunteered to George Oh I know how to post meetings it's not I just haven't done in a while and then it was like oh right zoom reality right so I don't know what the link is I don't know what the phone call information is, and I actually don't know how to attach the, all the names to the agenda so Angela quick figured all that out for us and made it happen so that was great. I did in fact if you see the meeting notice come across. I did in fact include continuation of the items we're discussing tonight in terms of the public way, in case something came up. And then just to give us the flexibility, although I totally understood that the intent of the meeting was just to be able to address the appointment so that we'd have a recommendation in time for the town council on August 23. Because otherwise we wouldn't have had another meeting until after the town councils August 23 meeting. And so therefore we'd be bumping up against that 30 day window that we have in the charter for town manager appointments plus obviously we want to get people on point in this quickly as we can. So, if there is something that comes up tonight like associated with planning for the hearing or whatever we have that covered on the agenda for many in case we need to talk about a little more. Thank you. Andy. Yeah, just following up on what Alyssa just said there was one appointment that came very late to the council before the last council meeting. And that was the acting or interim director for the health department. And so never got acted on by the council are referred and I just wanted to note that that's a 14 day window in the charter and 14 days will expired. So I just know that for the record but I don't think there's anything we can do and I'm not sure there's anything we would do. Paul, you have a hand up. Go ahead. So the council doesn't have to take action on temporary appointments until after 150 days. So temporary appointments are done with notification. I'm just looking for the section right now in the charter. It's just my understanding but okay. But would be nice to and I should probably noted, and I can find it later where exactly that is both for my own memory and for our records but my understanding was we don't actually act. They are in place for you said hello Paul it's 100 and it's 150 days 150 days. Okay, well I will find that I don't need if you find it later you can just pass it on to us but I'm listening your hand is still up. It's in 3.3 b. Thank you 3.3 b. Okay, so I can just say so it says when the town manager designates a person under the section the town manager shall file a certificate with the town clerk. Yes and that's 150 days. Thank you. Next item on the agenda is the town manager report updates and council questions. Everyone has seen Paul's report. There was a lot going on. I was taking copious notes on it. I don't question I have Paul for you. I keep running into grandparents in in district three. And they, they accost me, and they are very, very passionate about the Kendrick Park playground. And they want to know when it's going to open and I keep putting them off and putting them off. And a bit of a smile here but just curious if it's getting any closer. So reality. I think the contractors that they have a punch they're doing punch list items now. The, there's a, I think they have to do some hydro seating. I talked with the council president about doing a ribbon cutting the week of August 23rd. And then we're hoping, well, you know, in terms of the first night for schools, we're hoping that the superintendent will consider you doing at Kendrick Park this year. Because the community fair will be on the common and we'd love to sort of advertise this section and the bid is very excited about offering as an opportunity as well. I'm not sure if he's open to that if he's interested in that, but it's an idea. So yeah, so, you know, that the latest the week of August 23rd, if we can get it open before that to get it. I mean, Guilford may have a better sense of things. He's managing the project. I forgot you were there go for it. Yes, I think the week of the 16th is when the everything all the fencing will come down and it'll open up. They did hydro seated day two days ago. They finished the hydro seating so give the grass a little time that's inside the fence to maybe start growing a little bit and then there's just a couple little things left to do. It's beautiful. And the other day, hopefully won't turn me in but the one piece of the fence was actually not there was just the yellow tape. And I thought as a counselor and district three I could. So I ducked in and just sort of took a little preliminary tour. It looks lovely. So, thank you. Congratulations to to you go for it and to all the people who've been working on it. And it's true I do get a fair number of grandparents, what desperate to take the grandchildren somewhere and they're really excited. So anyways, good news. And that was my question. So much selfish anyone. Any other questions related to the town managers report. Definitely helps when there's only three of us here. Darcy usually has a list of questions. So, one of the things I mentioned Paul in passing and that I think is an upcoming TSO issue so I debated whether to put it here or under future agenda items is I'm looking at my phone from when I copy and pasted it earlier. In the charter, which I know we all have memorized under section 6.1. There's a section called reorganization of town agencies. And it talks about if you are reorganizing consolidating abolishing or establishing new town agencies. And I believe that both crests and the DEI director would separately be fall under creation of new town agencies. So I'm just putting it out there that as far as I know, we're going to need to go through the 6.1 process associated with that it does not appear to be a horribly complex process, but it is something that we need to be aware of as those hires are being made. And it does talk about being referred to the appropriate council committee and I assume finance committee might have something to say about that but certainly town services because we talk because you know that's kind of the name town services would be another committee who would be receiving that proposal it's one of those. It's one of those things because we have a variety of little different kinds of things in the charter but in this particular case, it's a plan is proposed to the town council the town council says, it goes off to committee, the committee makes a recommendation back to the town council and the town council either says yes or no. I'm guessing Paul will be talking to Lynn about how he wants to do that so that he can include the things that the town council once included so that we can say yes to it. And so that there isn't this rejecting of a reorganization plan. It's always an awkward sort of position when it says all you can do is say yes or no. I'm not sure if I should be able to make any development in conjunction to begin with. But I know at this point, obviously the focus is on hiring amazing people for positions, but I believe that that section of the charter will need to be invoked at some point in that process and I'm not exactly sure of the timing on that. The timing might be but I can see it's it's going to take some reflection and some consultation timing. So yeah so along those lines of the, I think the timing will be okay. The time sensitive piece will be the crest program because we are anxious to get the program director hired as quickly as possible so they can go out and start recruiting. We have a lot of responders, and the community safety working groups and working with the implementation team and then urging them to get something we just talked about today, trying to get a job description for the program director, completed by the end of next week, so that it can go to HR and they can start do the rating and do all the things that need to happen so we would be looking for advertising on the week of August 19. So we have the February one deadline that the council put on for this and I guess what I would, I can pull something together for the council. And that program I think it's relatively straightforward but it, there's still a lot of details to be worked out so I don't know what level of detail the council is going to be searching because this is a thing that we're building over the course of six, six months. In the DEI director position, we have a matrix of all the positions in Massachusetts. In terms of, and that's basically a position, in essence. So, in terms of, I didn't really think of that as a department necessarily. But as a job. And, but if the council is looking at that as a department or agency. We're probably on a similar timeline for the DEI probably a couple weeks later because we have a lot of people who we want to have a look at the DEI job description. As we, as we develop that that's probably not going to be completed till end of the end of August, maybe beginning of September. And so that those are the two things where the status of those two programs. About timing, Paul, are you thinking right now when you say with crest is just the desire to get some get someone in position quickly that's the time pressure as opposed to a council committee, for instance, so looking at the appointment that appointment for crest would not be considered a department head or not. Well, we're not actually yes a really good question I was not even thinking about that as a department head. I was thinking about that department head level, the program director for it. That's an excellent question. They would fall under someone else and as opposed to. And unfortunately, the loss of our senior director has really complicated things pretty dramatically for us on this whole endeavor. Okay, well we're not going to answer this tonight but it's really good questions. These are good questions that are listed. And please go ahead. Yeah I respect him though so but I was going to say it's now been addressed. In the end it is a question of, are we hiring a position to be supervised by somebody else with in another department or is it being proposed as a separate department and I didn't know if there was a clear answer on that yet, but it does make a difference as to how the section that Melissa was referring to gets pursued. And the, I think the primary question about structuring probably belongs to this committee and finance committee is really just talking about how we're redoing the budget in order to support the new positions, and just to be able to comment on it that I would leave the major programmatic and structural questions to this committee. I have not consulted out for what the finance committee is saying that. Melissa your hand is still up go ahead. Well it's gone back up again because I think there is a differentiation to be made just well because you know we don't know this first time. I think there is a differentiation to be made between whether or not TSO needs to make a recommendation in the usual 14 day timeframe for a department head, which is one thing we have done before. And separately, the reorganization what falls under reorganization even though it's not actually reorganization it's addition but addition is called out in the reorganization section. And so I can see that it is theoretically possible, just as it's been incredibly possible for us to do department head recommendations with 14 days with and there's been no reorganization right it's just been that TSO part of it the department part. But on the other hand it would also be possible to do reorganization without a department head. Those things do not necessarily go together and so because town agency under the charter includes the words department division or office. So that doesn't mean so Paul hire somebody that's not at the department head level so it doesn't fall under our 14 day thing, but it's a new concept and it's not just you know an additional clerical position for example. It's a new concept. I think that that falls under reorganization, but I don't think the actual hire would fall under our 14 day thing. Brave New World, we're figuring out as we move this along, I just don't want anything because you've done so much work preparing for these things. I think it's really kind of a matter of repackaging it to some degree. And then all the information we already have like Andy's talked about associate with budget. And then the other part of it is not a firm decisions haven't been made in terms of who's going to report to what either yet, because you're partly figuring that out as you go. And so I think that it's all going to unfold very nicely, but I just don't want to make sure we don't lose sight of it so that we get to a point where we suddenly realize oh gosh we didn't do something. And we don't want that to negatively impact a higher of anybody or the work to proceed of anybody we just want to make sure we took care of everything set the ground for everybody. So for, I mean, part of the trigger for moving forward was the council's vote on the budget, which includes funding for these things. So, so I guess it would be more like well now that we've said yes we want to do it with funding. We were serious about it, but now we want to see what it looks like. Okay. I mean I guess the other thing and I my understanding all along was that the plan was to build it up slowly, but actually build it up with enough content that there could be actual substantive community response going on but to sort of monitor the demand and work through the plan to decide really how many, what we needed in the end, and so that it's really something that's could be rolling out over a period of time. So we all should understand that and help the community to understand that. I found it very interesting and I'll leave it so we can get on to the other topic. And the article that somebody sent to the council about the Rochester New York program. And for a city of that size, they were talking about a volume of calls so it was much lower than I would have expected it to be. And I found that article very interesting. As far as both excited about where we're going, but also need for being careful as we move forward. So what I'm hearing, and please correct me Andy if I'm wrong or Paul that that there's going to be just by the fact of what's happening with an implement the implementation period, where things are just going to right and that may take place for many many months as we try and sort out what actually is working and what isn't before we would be at any stage to say, well, we're going to create a new department. So, and Alyssa doesn't agree good so listen what you're thinking that you're thinking that we should, there should be clear from the get go that this is a new department and hence that process should be started fairly soon. Go ahead. I think it really is largely what I just said about repackaging the information we already have right like we made certain decisions, we made we made policy recommendations and then certain decisions on the budget, based on information Paul gave us you know it's he's presenting us a new department out of whole cloth right like we've been working through this. And so in order to conform with 6.1. There's a public forum that has to be held by the TSO I believe in this case would be the right place. And so it's really, it's really going to be an opportunity to educate the public about how this is going to take a while. And then we'll see what it's going to look like at the end right because based on the experiences, you know, this is what I'm doing right now to set us up for success. And then we'll see where it goes. And at that point will we need another reorganization under 6.1 probably not maybe I don't know it depends on what it looks like, but we need it now but I think it's largely a function of outreach and education because we're not going to say no at this point. So it's just it's just a matter of going through the steps not because it's, you know, it's just a check off and we don't care. It's, it's going through the steps to show. This is why we're doing what we're doing and it's going to be figured out and the DEI could end up being similar, right, we might think it's going to be something to start with. If it plays out with the individual that gets hired, it may kind of morph, and it may or may not have employees under it. So, I don't think we need to make a huge deal out of this it's not like we're expecting a bound 365 page treatise with appendices or anything like that, because after all it's first time we're doing it so we can figure out what we want. I think it's a relatively low lift, which is good because how many other things going on I think we just have to do it and we can have that conversation I'm obviously Paula work with Lynn and I'm happy to partake in that so that I don't say later well why didn't you do this, and, and we'll just make sure that we're all on track, because as one of the things Paul pointed out that I think is really useful is that a lot of people do want to have eyes on various parts of both of these things, including like the DI director higher and whether and so the more people that are wrapped into that, then the much easier it is to say at the end, this is what we're doing and everyone's like yeah of course we already knew that. So, Alyssa what I'm hearing is that that yes this should be taking place fairly early in the process matter of fact fairly immediately where Paul give somebody to TSO TSO would hold a public forum, and the purpose would be as you just said to for outreach and to the public, while at the same time, other things are happening but this is the point of 6.1 is there's organization taking place, and the charter requires that we do this and we should do it. Basically soon, sooner. Would you also envision that there be also a second forum on the DI position. You think there would be two separate separate. I mean we could in theory do them at the same time. That's another but they're too very right because if that feels right to people but it does go to the council first and then they refer it. Right. But in our minds, right. Now we have the lovely what what do we call we don't call it a parking lot because that would imply cars, but you know our bicycle rack that we keep things in that we haven't scheduled yet is knowing that these things will be happening, but you make a good point and that in theory, there's no real reason why we couldn't have the forum on both issues at the same time if that felt like it made sense to Paul based on where he was with his process. I don't see that the DEI position and what's happening there falls under 36.1 I see that clearly with the crest, and but I don't see it as clearly, which just may be me with the DEI. I tend to see that more as like an individual hire for very specific, but you're suggesting to know both of these are involved a kind of basic reorganization that falls under 6.1. Right the DEI falls under 6.1. I think if it's a clerical job then we're not then it's not the same. And so I think that given the level of import people placed on this issue. It is a separate thing, even if it ends up reporting to someone other than the town manager, which we don't even know for a fact yet. Okay. Any further comment or thoughts from any of you. Any further questions or for Paul and the town manager report. Yes, so I just would like to read 6, I'm sorry, read 6.1 closer on the DEI role. Whether you see that quite the same way as Melissa does. I just haven't read as carefully I'm sure as Melissa has so need to focus on a little bit. Fair enough. We have to public way present well discussion items. Not sure about presentation. We need my understanding is what we need to do tonight. And Tracy is already sort of hinted to this is make a decision about attack and where their input is going to come into this. We need to take it mainly what we need to do for the first item which is the north pleasant to McClellan roadway improvements is to ideally set a public hearing date and to get a sense of what the schedule is going to be like we do have a set of decision points that I believe everyone has access to, and I can put up on the screen if that would be helpful. Okay, good I can do that. See here. So let me just put this up on the screen. So these are the decision points that Darcy created and she sent these to tech. And in a few moments we may be hearing from Tracy about their thoughts on this or actually I think they want some more time to think about it. But this is these are decision points that were created from our last discussion. I don't know if we want to go over this again whether we have anything to add whether we have questions about this, or whether at this stage, we are waiting to hear from tack. Before we return to our deliberation. So, I guess first question is do we wish to deliberate some more this evening, or do we wish to first hear from Tracy about where tack is at, and then perhaps see if we can come up with a process and primarily concerned with setting up a public hearing date that we all can agree makes sense. So that's my first question and Alyssa your hand is up so go ahead. I'm not sure exactly where to go with this it seemed, it seemed, it seemed almost too easy. Last meeting where we were like, Oh, so tax going to meet on such and such date and such and such date and they'll be able to get us a report and time for this meeting and everything will work out great and so we can schedule the hearing for September and it'll be really straightforward. And then of course reality sets in and it's difficult for a lot of committees to make quorum in the summer, especially if they're short some members. So really, really cannot say strongly enough, really concerned that tack discuss this without a quorum. There aren't such things as posted meetings that you can then turn into an informal discussion that that's just not really a thing with open meeting law. And so that makes me really uneasy and so I'm not willing to. How do I say, entertain recommendations that come out of that kind of discussion, recommendations that come out of a posted meeting discussion with a quorum, and I totally understand again, I really value tax opinion and so I want to get it. So I want to make sure we do schedule things appropriately so that we can get their input, you know, enable them to have a real full discussion in public. I know the public might have been there for their non quorum discussion but I don't know why staff didn't just say, shut off the zoom, we're going home now that doesn't make any sense to me. So I want to put us in a position for success but I don't want to do things without tack but I also know there's some time pressure on this so I guess I'm looking to to Guilford and Tracy at this point to figure out what they think, you know, now versus a week or so ago is a couple weeks ago is realistic for them versus what they were hoping to get done. So I was going to put out some dates here I see Tracy's hand is up and I'm going to come to you in a moment Tracy. So if you bear with me for a second, I spent some time today just looking at our calendar, looking at the town council's calendar, and try to come up with a sort of sense of what realistic dates could be. And it definitely would mean what I'm looking at would definitely have a postponement for tack they're not there's they would be like September 23 would be the date by which we would need to hear from tack. But that raises the question for Guilford and for Paul, is that getting too late for what they need, because according to the schedule that I've been sketching out here. The council vote would be October 4. And so that would be the soonest that I can envision a actual council vote on this particular proposal and pushing it faster than that. I'm not saying it's not possible but I think it would be difficult so I'm wondering first of all, before we go to Tracy. So from Guilford's perspective and Paul's perspective is October 4 council vote, really putting a real problem is that create a real problem for you in terms of what you need to do to get this up and running. We can't hear you Guilford. That's because he's cursing me, but that's all right. He's had having this trouble with his computer, which is formats. Okay, it's all right. No, you just go thumbs up or thumbs down. Okay, thumbs up. Okay. That would work for you because I think that that works for you and it doesn't. I think that's a realistic date and I'm going to take the committee through the steps. And see also Tracy's taken her hand down, and I certainly want her to get into this conversation. I think Alyssa makes a good point that probably the actual discussion and thoughts that Tracy had with her committee at the last meeting probably should be held in advance until she has a chance to have a quorum and then then we would be very much interested in what what transpired, but I think we could set a schedule. And so that's what I'm thinking right now. But before we turn to that. Do is there anything else people want to add to these decision points because essentially in my mind at this point, these are the core questions that came out of our discussion with Guilford and the presentation. TAC now has them. We very much want to hear what TAC thinks about this. Then it comes back to us. And the question I think that as long as we get the report from TAC, before the public hearing. We don't need to discuss, I mean, because we're still going to have a discussion at the public hearings and my thought is, we would set a date for public hearing. So that would be September 23, which is on our calendar, a date that we actually is an optional date for a meeting. And by the way, September 16 Alyssa according to the calendar I'm looking at has been canceled. So we will not be meeting on Yom Kippur that that's been removed from the calendar, but the next date would be September 23. And my suggestion was maybe to set to set that as the public hearing date, and also the absolute deadline for a tax report. TSO would vote on the 30th, the following week, which is also a scheduled meeting for us. It's marked as a regular meeting. And then we that would go to a council vote on October 4 council does meet on October 4. So that's one suggestion. Alyssa, please. I mean, I'm sorry, Georgia is trying to type and listen and sometimes that works and sometimes it doesn't so you were referring to potentially because of the shifts TAC the TAC report not getting TSO and told the date of the hearing on September 23, which I'll complain more about in a moment, but then you were talking about TSO taking about during the night of the hearing. The 30th, that additional week that originally scheduled TSO. I'm suggesting back to back. Yes. Okay, so and then that way we're prepared for that first October meeting. So here's where we can reflect back to the, the deliberation we had last time around Darcy suggesting that it would be fine to get the TAC report at the same time as the hearing and I pointed out that realistically we need to publish a legal hearing. This is not a public forum. We publish a legal notice or public hearing about what. And if we don't know what the recommendations are because we haven't heard from TAC with their recommendations are and we're not doing very much with the recommendations ourselves while we're waiting for TAC right we're not just looking for TAC to we're not having a four hour discussion about this and then asking TAC to just confirm what we decided we're actually depending a lot on their expertise. We need it. Not only more than the day of the hearing so we could, you know, actually read it before we got to the hearing, but also then there's the question of if we're not going to get it until like a couple day. The 23rd is just too late. If that's the hearing we can't get the report on the same day because we're not going to read it. I mean that's ridiculous. So if we get the report like two days ahead of time right. Figure that's kind of the standard worst case scenario we get two days ahead of time. Then I could live with that if that if that is going to enable TAC to actually have at least one quorum meeting. What I'm concerned about then is then we just get into the details which we obviously don't have to hash out in detail in a public meeting it can be more of a housekeeping thing to a point. But there do need to be parameters of what we put on the hearing right because we aren't going to say make the road go one way this direction. So we have it be that TAC recommends it's the other direction like that that's not a sensible thing to do or we're not going to say, remove the parking from x place and then taxes no actually the parking should have been there. So while you can to some extent do that with the hearing there's always the question of what how much does the hearing encompass. So if we're careful with the way we word the hearing, which I think we can probably be as long as we get to get to Gilford and Tracy's input as to how we word the legal notice, we can probably get by without having had a chance to discuss as we had planned at our last TSO meeting at a last TSO meeting we said it's going to go to TAC tax going to give us recommendations we're going to discuss the recommendations then we'll know what to put in the hearing notice that's been precluded we're not going to know what to put in the hearing notes. So therefore if we just write a fairly open ended hearing notice right, then we should be, I think we'll be okay. And so I guess the question is, then, if everybody's comfortable one with a fairly open ended hearing notice and then the other part is whether or it feels like just given the various pressures their committee members are under. Is it realistic to expect a report from TAC to TSO just to be distributed electronically, at least two days in advance of the hearing on the 23rd. I think that's a couple things but let's go immediately to that question and Tracy, and what you're suggesting Alyssa is a deadline date of September 21. So Tracy, what do you think of these deadlines first of all in these dates. Thank you. I mean, our approach. So, I mean, just quickly to Alyssa Bray was first question about just our meeting today is like we did. You know, one of the people who suggested that we could meet and just discuss things without any votes or decisions was the member of TAC who's been a previous town administrator. And we, I mean really we wanted just the opportunity to talk to find out more details about the project because we had a lot of questions we hadn't discussed the project yet to go over the memo in detail. So it was just, you know, brainstorming we were talking about, there were no decisions made. It was no deliberations. And we will be doing those at our next meeting. Yeah, I think we had and it was, you know, it was more of a subcommittee so at our last TAC meeting that did have a quorum. We agree that like a subset of members could take this on and meet and discuss it. In terms of our schedule so we, we do believe I do need to hear from one more member of our five members and we need four members for quorum. We do believe we have a quorum for next Thursday, which is the 12th. We needed a regular time and Guilford is available then to advise us as well because he's the most familiar with the project and about the details from the DPW perspective. We are not meeting on the 19th or the 26th. We were talking about possibly doing a site visit on the second. When the students are back to and we can just, you know, see how that's working. And after we do have a quorum, like we will be drafting some, some of our ideas about recommendations considerations for the TSO and the council. At the current time, I don't see us, I see us breaking down, you know, somewhat how Darcy did in the memo that she, the list that she gave us about the different elements. And I see us doing something similar to what we did with Pomoy Village is that even if we take votes on different elements and say, you know, we support this we don't support that but I think more as an advisory committee. So what we would do is we would say these are the key things we're focused on and these are what we want the TSO and the council to consider, you know, including some safety type recommendations about if you're going to have a crosswalk, you know what the site line should be like and, you know, we're concerned about pedestrian safety with the kids at the park. You know, we want to make sure that, I mean, for example, you know, one of the main causes of children who are pedestrians getting injured or killed are when vehicles don't see them. So we want to make sure that if we do have parking on both sides of the street, you know, that it's done in a way that can be done safely. Right. Where children are not going to be chasing a ball and running between two large minivans or SUVs. And so how can we keep that area safe for everyone. So, I mean, to the point that Alyssa just raised about in terms of a public hearing like I don't see us saying this is definitely what you should do. I think that these are things we thought about these are what, what our advice would be, but it still would probably need to go through TSO before the public hearing if you want to provide like a, like this is exactly what we're proposing type of information for the public to respond to. Additionally, like some of the topics like related to parking and so on, there are other committees or staff who are also looking at those and so I'm not sure how much it is within the jurisdiction attack to issue specific recommendations on those like, for example, the question about residential, I mean the town center parking permit, like on the north side, the north section of that stretch of North Pleasant Street. There's currently all the spaces currently on the west side are permitted parking. And, you know, it's been pointed out to us that that for most, most of the properties that those are adjacent to have their own off street parking. Like there's no commercial in that vicinity right now that is residential with parking behind the buildings. And a lot of times those spaces aren't used, you know they're used more when UMass is in session but like who's actually parking there and could there be an opportunity for there to be. I mean, do those spaces need to continue to be permitted parking? Could they be be ordered parking? Would that be a way to increase the meter parking supply? But that again, the kind of issues. So, I mean, some of those things are really beyond our scope. Like you would treat it. Yeah, I mean disability access committee. You know, one of the things that's come up like would there be handicapped parking near the park, for example, you know, so that if you do have children and a wheelchair or a parent and a wheelchair like how can you access the park where would you park those kind of things. There are, we would, I mean, we might say something in our memo about, you know, this, you know, this would be helpful to have the feedback from the disability access advisory committee, same with the issue related to like street trees. Right, like that's not our area either. Exactly. So, I mean, I think. There's a 23rd. I mean, I think that I would think. So, you know, because it is on rapport on September 16, like we would, we are proposing to meet on the second we wouldn't we typically meet on the first and third Thursdays. I mean, we could probably have some memo to TSO on the ninth, but I don't know when your meetings are scheduled before the 23rd, if you're not meeting on the 16th. But if you want to review something, I don't know how far in advance. Yeah, that's a discussion I think this committee needs to have this evening. What the role is in terms of, but good, it sounds like the 23rd is a date or 21st, excuse me, the date you could meet. And then you'd be providing maybe even sooner, some kind of written document where you'd be offering us your thoughts. I would anticipate that we would submit something like even, you know, before the holiday, like on the 14th or the 15th or something like if we've been if we are able to meet, like off of our regular schedule. But again, I don't know for the purposes of the public hearing. Yeah, that's a question to the public like how many what details have to be there. So that's where I need to hear from my colleagues. Right now. Thank you, Tracy. And we'll come back to you in a second, but I need to hear from my two colleagues. Because in my own mind, it's not clear. I mean, how detailed maybe there's just a matter of just law here how detailed must the the proposal be when it goes before to the public. Obviously, the more detailed the better, because we'll get better public feedback. But there obviously going to be some details that simply won't be determined or can't be determined. And how important is it that that the public actually have read, or that we have read the tack advisory memo, which is an advisory memo to us is to help us in our deliberations. So how important this is a question I'm just asking how important is it that that somehow be available to us and or the public before a public hearing versus a public hearing that as Alyssa suggested could be sort of open ended in this description, where we give it as much detail as we think we can in good conscience give it but it's really more about what's the public think. Not just what does the public think about tax, you know memo. And do we really need tax memo on before we have the public hearing that's a question I think Alyssa suggested that we do. And she can speak to that some more. I have questions in my own mind about whether that's absolutely necessary, but this is helping me sort of clarify it. What I understand my thinking is that we want to hear from tech. They give us their advice we value it and we need their memo. We want to hear from the public, we value their thoughts, and we have a public hearing. But those are two very different streams, and they're both valuable to us because we're the deciding body. But is there like a timeline where everything has to be in sync. I have a question so what do what do the, I think Alyssa has already spoken to it but she can speak to it some more. I'm wondering if that that we really need. How high degree of specificity do we need for the public hearing. And how important is it that the tech advice to us be something we've already, we talk about before we have the public hearing. Because I'm suggesting I don't think we do have to do that. Because that impacts the timeline, very much. If we have to get another meeting in before the public hearing. Just to talk about what tax memo says. I mean we can do that, but it's going to push everything off some more. And I'm wondering why do we need to do that, because we will talk about the tech memo. It'll be after the public hearing thoughts, because I'm proposing that we don't need that we as long as we get the tech memo in time for our final deliberation. And as long as we have a public hearing where the public has a fairly good idea of what is being proposed. That's what matters, but I'm open to arguments that say no no no that's that's not enough. It's got that public hearing has to have, you know the highest level of detail. Including the tech memo, and we need to have talked about it before we hear from the public, I just don't see that, but, and if you agree with me then my schedule works. If you don't, then we need to schedule another meeting before either September 23, where we do the public hearing at a later date and hence the council vote would then be October at the earliest would be October 18, and maybe even November I don't know I'd have to look. So before I turn to Tracy I just like to hear from colleagues, because we're the ones who have to make a decision here. So you're calling and asking me. Well, I, I, when I'm hearing right now is nobody saying Ryan you're wrong we have to have. I guess that I like a little bit more. One is that Dillford did say something at the last meeting about what day he would like to have a decision by possible and consequences of not meeting that date. So, whether he's, I can repeat that for us today or amended and updated, whichever is more appropriate that would be helpful so that we understand what it is we're trying to trying to get to is to an end result and the other thing. I have to turn back to Alyssa is a lot more experienced from her longer service on the select board than I had it plus her role as chair in that body. But what is the nature of the notice that is most that has been determined to be necessary. And what was the notice that we had for the the primary lane intersection. So those are questions that I think I need response to in order to understand where we can go. So I guess first to go for it if he wishes to weigh in on the timeline overall he said that October 4 is a date he can live with. And the question and he is asking is what sort of the absolute limit to that, or do you know, and you hear me now. Yes, we can. What this is all new and I understand it's all new it's all kind of new to us kind of doing this as well. So, if we can have some type of decision on the, on the concepts by November. That would be good because we still would need to finalize the plans and work it into the work schedule for next year. So that's kind of how we're seeing it now. I mean, in Pomeroy we, we voted on a concept plan, but if you actually are going to vote at your, at your hearing or have a hearing for parking changes then you do have to have some very big specifics in there about what your parking changes are. But if you're going to vote the concept plan then come back a later time to vote for the parking changes that that would work into the time period as well. So there could be two separate votes, one is the concept plan, and the second would be the parking changes which also have a public hearing attached to them. So there'd be two separate public hearings, if that's what we did which. Okay, but you're saying November. We're encouraging that we wait that long, I hope we don't, but that you could live with another couple weeks or a month even if that were necessary. What I'm trying to get from my colleagues is why they feel that it's so important that we have the memo before we proceed to a public hearing and why we need to talk about the tech memo, I guess the thought would be that there might be suggestions in there that could affect what we would want to present to the public. So that's, that's perfectly reasonable argument. And maybe that's why we need to do it. My thought is that, you know, as long as the public has a general sense of what's going to happen. But for instance, if in the plan to present to the public, it's one way going one direction. But then later, based on what we read from TAC and other inputs that we get from other bodies at a later meeting, we decide to have it go a different direction. Is that a big problem with parking, I think it has to be pretty explicit. I understand. But for some of this other stuff, you know, if we decide that they're going to have a crosswalk here. And so in the public presentation, there are a couple places where crosswalks are being proposed. And then later one or two of them gets taken out and we move it somewhere else. And that's what finally gets voted on. Is that a big problem? I don't see that as a big problem as long as the public has a chance to weigh in and give us their thoughts. Because we don't have to do what they suggest, you know, we take it seriously and we consider it. But so that's where I'm wondering why we need to have a discussion of tax memo. Right, because then you think, well, then also we should have a discussion if we get something from a public shaped tree committee and we get something from, you know, the disability advisory committee. We should also wait for that and then have a discussion about all that. And then we go to the public hearing. And we can do that. And I'm not saying we shouldn't. I'm not convinced that we should but that's what one way we could do it we wouldn't go to the public hearing until we had everything that we wanted from the various committees we had sought out for advice. And we had talked about it. So I guess I'm asking about a process is that what you prefer. And if that's the case, then this will take a little bit longer. That's true probably for all I mean the other thing is I think going forward for any kind of proposal like this, that has to be built into the steps and will mean that this will take longer. Again, not the end of the world but maybe someday. Well, so that's the question. Alyssa has her hands up. I'm sorry Alyssa I didn't see that go ahead please. Maybe if Andy had more to say because I don't want to take our time there's no rush here I mean it's just not an easy question so please go ahead. So, we had this conversation already a different way when we had a different schedule, when it was not going to be a problem for us to have a TSO meeting because we had one on the 26 that we were already going to have a report in advance of. And so on the 26 of August, we were going to have had a hand, at least two days ahead of time. A report from tack that we could then decide what we were going to put in the public hearing notice we were going to finalize exactly what the dates were to get the newspaper publication blah blah, but, and then we'd have the hearing. So, the value of tax report to TSO is thinking the value of tax report to the public's thinking to DAC is thinking to anyone's thinking doesn't change because we've run into quorum problems. So, you want to have a good quality hearing, whether you're having quorum problems or not, rather than saying well we checked off the box, so who cares. So, I can appreciate that there are a number of different ways of doing this there is not one right way. There is, I think, a wrong way to do it, which is to have it be, as I described last time and have described in the past at town council meetings as well, a brainstorming session. A hearing is not supposed to be noticed in such a broad way that people say, oh you're talking about parking around Kendrick Park well I'm coming to talk about how I don't think you should have that park there without a playground. I don't think you should put that playground there without a fence, and I'm coming to talk about how I don't think it's right that people who live in big buildings can buy residential parking permits downtown, because you've made it so broad that literally there's no reason for them to talk about all this. At the same time, we talked about the fact that you don't want to make it so narrow that that somebody would argue later oh you have to have a different public hearing now right because you said, we're going to have it go one way this way. And so everybody said, that's cool I'm fine with that I'm not going to show up at the public hearing. And then we have a meeting where nobody shows up but we're in a meeting. And we say you know what we're going to change it to have it go the other way. And the public says hey wait a minute, you noticed that public hearing is having the one way street go that way, like how are we supposed to know you were even entertaining the idea. So there is something to be said for having it be broad but not so open. What's that idea about an open mind but not so open that like you just falls out kind of thing. And so, I think that we can be thoughtful about it, I think that that's a separate yet related issue to whether or not we have tax report to help us with that thinking, just like eventually we'll want da sees report and as you indicated, we could demand that we get all the reports first and we're not scheduling a thing until we've read all of them. It's probably not realistic though right, I mean, some organizations might function that way if they didn't have to do open meeting law. But given open meeting law, it's probably not realistic to expect all the different committees to be able to fall into some beautiful timeline, where we'll get everything ahead of time and we won't be making go for wait six months while we do it. And so, you know, in terms of trying to address that difference without just kind of throwing up our hands and saying well there's no point it's too complicated. I think is just figuring out what we think the bit the parameters are and like I said Guilford and Tracy's and but I think will both be important for that go for some particular because of his experience with hearing notices as well as other to make sure we kind of get it right to cover ourselves to cover ourselves from the idea of having to do it again, but also to cover ourselves from the standpoint of encouraging the public to show up for a particular reason, because we're going to take away permit parking because we're going to make a street one way potentially one way or the other. We're going to put in crosswalks or not or we're not even considering putting in crosswalks. I mean giving them some sense of why they should bother to come. And then saying later while we had a hearing you should have known about it, but the hearing notice was confusing or weak, and people didn't come. And then we get complaints later, we can't prevent all complaints but we can try and be thoughtful. And of course open meeting law requires some specificity right it's not going to just be parking around Kendrick Park or streets around Kendrick Park, obviously that's too broad. So I think we can get there George I don't think you and I are as far apart on this as we might seem to be in that, you know, the reality of the deadline is coming up against us I think it's important that we TSO, because I believe we have expressed repeatedly how much we depend on tack. I think it's important for we TSO to have gotten the report a couple days ahead which of the hearing which Tracy has indicated is plausible, which is good since we were planning to get it a month before the hearing. Well, three weeks before the hearing before so it's good that it's still plausible that we can get it two days before the hearing. So we haven't compressed the timeline completely. So that's important, I think for TSO and town council members who are going to show up at this hearing to have seen what tack has to say because everybody depends on their expertise. I'm not sure where we feed in DAC and shade tree into this and I and I look to go for suggestions on that just based on the scope of the work and the nature of the hearing. And when because depending on when they meet right if we if we hit the timing wrong they may not have another meeting until well after the hearing. And so we wouldn't necessarily get the report ahead of time, but they would know that they should be prepared themselves to come as individuals if they can't meet as a group. So I think we are not in as bad shape as we might be I think even though we've completely lost the timeline that we thought we had, which is unfortunate. I think it's unfortunate that it's not going to work out the way it was going to. I can still do the 23rd though and I think we can still have tack information two days ahead. And I think that'll be valuable. And I do just want to make clear that, you know, we do have to think through in terms of the hearing notice. What we're going to say if we're going to say anything about permit parking because as Tracy indicated as Paul has indicated to us shaman gano and perhaps others are working on a proposal when I say they're working because I don't want to say they're working on permit parking because they don't get to decide. They're working on a proposal to change permit parking because that's a town council decision. And so whether or not that's going to be at this stage of the game, right, or be something that gets discussed over the winter into the spring, I don't know. It could certainly come up as part of the public hearing depending on how much information, we think we have associated with that particular issue. I just want to make sure I'm clear on because I'm already grumpy about the former town administrator who I know very well should not have said that you could continue to count it as deliberation because you're just getting information, but that's information your other members don't have. It's just a simple fact so that was a poor choice on that individuals part and I'm sorry that individual who all have speaks with had that conversation. In the meantime, the other part is a subset a subcommittee still needs to post their meeting. It still needs to be a posted meeting there is no such thing as a subset of people who are meeting that there's one one person can do something other than that it's a posted meeting, and he may not agree with that either but that is the fact of the matter right now. So, I think we're okay I think that we just need to have George, assuming that you continue or you know obviously we'll have this separate conversation with Evan with Evan coming back. How you're helping us manage us through this because of the fact that we do have the timing issue so staff will need to let us know when we have to have the wording right for the hearing notice. The timing issue Alyssa is a bit of a red herring here because it's not. I mean I just put out a suggested calendar. And what I'm hearing from you and Andy can certainly weigh in here, but I'm thinking as I'm hearing you and thinking about it some more that it may very well makes sense for us to have a session. We set the before we have the public hearing we have a session to TSO, where we talk about the reports that we have solicited from various committees certainly tack would be the most prominent one. But in this case there might be at least two others. And so let's say we set a date of September 23 just hypothetically as the date by which we need reports back from these various bodies including tack. And at that meeting, or say September 21 so at that meeting, we would meet and that's what we do we would go over their reports and discuss them, and we would come to an agreement as to what the public notice essentially was going to consist of and we would then proceed to the public hearing. We, we, yeah, we have a 14 day notice period for the public hearing, but that's that shouldn't drive this process it should be driven by what we as a committee think is the best way for us to get the information we need in a reasonable and timely fashion so I think we could change this schedule that I put out here is specifically, it's just a suggestion. So, instead of the 23rd for a public hearing we could push it off two weeks, and that on the 23rd we would be actually discussing what we got from various committees we asked to hear from. So, it sounds like that's an integral part of this process, and my thought that, you know, as long as we considered at some point, even if it's after the public hearing, that's okay. But what I'm hearing from you and as I think about it. Clearly they're going to be some things that these committees are going to suggest to us that would, I assume, would shape what we think this proposal is going to look like, when it goes to the public. I mean, it doesn't make sense for us to slow this down just a bit, add at least one other session where we get these reports, and then we talk about them. And at that meeting, we're going to have to shape the hearing notice. So we'll slow things down a bit but I don't see. Yeah. I just thought on that, because I just these dates I just, you know, plugged in to try and get us to October 4, but that's just arbitrary. Right, I mean we thought we were going to be able to make it and you know things happen. I mean that's just the reality. So just, yeah, the process is important. So it's beginning to sound seem to me that it is important to us as a committee to actually ponder the advice that we get from the various groups that we've reached out to now they don't get it to us in time. That's not our fault. Okay, so that that happens. That's just too bad, but get it and talk about it before we actually go to the public. So that we have, right, as opposed to what I was suggesting originally which is, at least for this particular proposal, you know, we'll talk about what tech has to say after we have the public care. And I'm beginning to think maybe that's not such a bright idea. That's, that's why it's so great to have deliberation right I mean like I, I appreciate that that you are willing to think about that differently and to and to consider that more I mean I don't want to drag this out forever, but I do really appreciate the idea of getting all that because another way to think of this as is once we get all that input, say there's universal agreement that one of the proposed one piece of the proposal is just a bad idea. And then we as a TSO may say, you know what, that is such a bad you have convinced us, you know, individuals coming in to see us but also you know tag DAC, you have convinced us that doing this particular part of the proposal is just a terrible idea we're not even going to hold a hearing on that particular issue, because we think that's a non starter. We're not required to hold public hearing on anything but what we think we might want to change. And so, I'm going to assume that everyone's gonna love all parts of the proposal because of course it's a brilliant proposal. But it would be, it would put us in a much stronger position, as we talked to our constituents to say, this is why you need to come to this hearing. You know, these different bodies have already told us these things. We've come to this new way of thinking about you know this area is so important to the vitalization of our downtown. We really need you to come help us make the rest of the decisions associated with this, as opposed to what do you randomly think about what we might be doing there, right, leaving it so open ended. So I think it does sound fabulous to try and you know, like you said, if not everybody makes our deadline but if we give them a, if we to give them a month's notice want to assume that they will get close to doing that. And then they had the chance. And then they can show up at whatever public hearing we end up having. I think we just need to work out in terms of the timing then, when it is thinking about the town council meetings like you had already done George. Thinking about the future town council meetings then backing that up in terms of a hearing when it has to go in the newspaper, right, to make sure we have our basis covered. What I would what I would do is I would write up for assuming for Evan but whoever finally becomes the chair of this committee. I'll just write up based on our discussion, a potential timeline which would include a separate meeting. Before we actually go to a public hearing. And there are other things there's the two week notice advance notice that complicates things but I will, I will present a suggestion calendar or calendars for whoever is the chair to consider and we put in the packet. And I think that's where we can leave that for the moment. Tracy your hand has been patiently up. Is there something you'd like to add to this discussion. Okay, so one aspect is that I mean I think that a timeframe where we give TSO like our full memo by, you know, after we've had the next like two meetings, two meetings with the quorum is no issue. And I mean I see as getting that by based on my current estimation by like mid September or something so it would be well before the public hearing. I mean, in addition, if the committee is talking about advertising sooner, the public hearing I know at the last year so meeting right you're hoping to advertise it for say a month or something. I don't, I mean I understand that the committee is busy. But if you did want sort of a summary update from us like Guilford has been participating in our meetings to, in terms of anything that we base on the discussions at the at the tech meetings like if there's any aspect of the proposal that came from the town manager and the CW that we would have the attack has major concerns about that will probably not be in our recommendations like I could flag that for the I could give a brief update and flag that for TSO if you're interested. I'm also just in terms of the decision point list that came from Darcy. I mean I think that we would be able to address most of those questions the one that I feel. If you related to the parking that I don't feel that comfortable with including this should the parking permit currently be provided because I think, you know, because of these other efforts that are going on related to parking that's sort of outside of our scope. But then also that question right above it is should 25 on street parallel parking spaces be added to maximize parking. So I think that 25 is just such a specific number. If you want to change that question to be like should there be on street parallel parking spaces I think, you know, definitely the tack could respond to that and we could make some suggestions about, you know where they should be or how they should be spaced or how can it be done in the most safe way and those type of things. But the 25 number. I mean you can see that it could be calculated a lot of different ways and it wouldn't always be 25. So we created decision points document, and it seems to me, this is a question to my colleagues as well, but a comment for me that we would also send this, I would envision the chair sending this to disability advisory committee, but obviously they would not be commenting on most of this. Or maybe we would have to just add a decision point that would address them specifically. But just as we send this to tack, there's certain things attacks not going to address because it's not in their domain. Most of this is not going to be discussed by necessarily by disability access. So I'm envisioning the decision points document as a list of decisions that we based on our present based on presentation we've gotten in our initial discussion of discussions. And that is that we see as key decision points, and we'd like some input from various bodies on this, and we'd like it within say the next month at the most will set a deadline. And once that deadline comes, we will assemble whatever we've gotten, and we will meet at least, we'll meet one more time as a committee and go through that and discuss it. And then after that, we will make the decision about what is going to go into the public meeting posting, and we'll set a date etc etc. And I guess I see this decision points document as a key part of the process. And we may we're learning as we go. But it would be said to everybody that we were actually soliciting the with the understanding or in the covering memo that obviously we don't expect you to respond to all these because it don't apply to you but those that do. Please respond. And if you have any further thoughts I mean we could also just say you know if you have any other concerns or thoughts please share them with us. Yeah, so I think to that last point is I do think that there are other topics that that would be raised by tack, like including, I mean just when I've been thinking about it in terms of that issue about handicap parking. Like I understand that Amherst has never provided any on street handicap parking. You know typically it's in lots but that would that be something that the town wanted to look at. We also, you know, because the tack, because we're not just focused on vehicles and also just the public way but also in terms of like bike access. You know, and do we have any recommendations related bike access or would we want bike lanes or bike pass or even bike racks in the park or those types of things. I mean there would be right so beyond the decision points you raise but I mean in terms of if if TSO wanted to notice it to the public early in terms of a public hearing. I don't know if that would be helpful to you for me to give like a brief update and just say, you know this is one part of the town's memo that we would probably not be supporting or something or you only want to see it when you have the full memo. I mean I understand if you don't want it to be too iterative. What I'm hearing is that we want to hear from you first and from the disability acts or whatever other bodies that we reach out to want to hear from you first and talk about that. Before we then proceed to the public hearing notice is what I'm hearing. So, and I wonder if my colleagues are comfortable it's just a question here with a decision points document with you know where it says please respond within say you know three or four weeks or a month at the most. And if you have any further thoughts or suggestions, feel free to share them, or do you want to be very specific I mean there's there's something we may have to resolve over time, but are you okay with the idea of just sort of, you know, opening it up to this advisory body that we're consulting that if there's anything else you want to add go ahead, or do we want to say please respond to the particular points that are listed here as they, you know, fall within your domain. And if they don't, obviously you won't have nothing to say but in those areas that you do please respond. Are you comfortable with also making it more open ended, and maybe we'll learn by doing but that's right now what I'm suggesting is somewhat more open ended. This perhaps later but okay. All right, well, what I'm seeing here is that I will write some of this up and share it with you as a community as a group and also whoever, well, we'll make this decision next time we meet, but whoever takes on the chairmanship. I'll share with them, and with you all some kind of possible schedule, and also a process that sounds like we've come to some agreement amongst three of us at the moment that we're going to gather information first before we proceed to setting a public hearing. And we're going to talk about it. Melissa. So Andy's hand is that please Andy go ahead. We generally with what you've now put forward George and thank you. I do. I am concerned about making sure that we get to all of the correct committees and give them sufficient information that they can comment. And I think we have sufficient time to receive their comments and I think about my years about the last time to da AC. And I think that the issue that Tracy Zardy identified with handicapped parking. To the playground is one that I would have expected a prior version of the AC and probably this version of that commission to comment on. But they also have, as they did in Pomeroy a similar interest in sidelines for crossings, because of the safety issues for people who have limitations that they're concerned about but also just generally. The other thing is, and I'm glad you moved it down this the Shaitree commission committee, because I think we know from what's happened in Northampton recently that this could be an issue that's listed under number three. And I think it would be helpful to get an earlier read from them as to whether they have how much of a concern that they have about that issue, and whether that issue as it is worded now. It gets into precluding that as an option based upon what they say in the case it's a, we want to hear from them about the danger to the trees and the value of the trees, given the way that it is worded in the current number three. So sure we get that committee involved to quickly listen. Now, following up on that, thank you Andy and you make a really excellent point about as we each become familiar with various members of different bodies we know like the kinds of things people are going to bring up or might have brought up. Yeah, they've been at the table at that particular moment so, and the handicapped parking issue thank you again Tracy for bringing that up. So, I think that George, my understanding is, you will be writing this up and you will publish this. And you will send you will CC us as to all of the TSO as members. And in that, the only tweak that I wanted to offer is to say, based on all the wonderful things that you said, is to point out that there will be a hearing, probably in October, right because we don't see how we're going to have it in September, given this timeline. And, but that we want the body to submit their report as a body to TSO by September 21. So that we can come up with an effective hearing notice by the end of our discussion on the 23rd. Right. And, you know, encourage them that it would be great even if they could send somebody right on the 23rd to follow up with any question that we could ask any questions of based on the report and obviously if we decide on the 23rd that a whole new realm of possibility has has opened up then we don't have to decide on the hearing that night. But just to give people the sense of, yes, there will be a hearing. It'll probably be in October just so they have it on their radar, but we really want your report as a committee by the 21st. Good. Andy. Oh, I just take my hand down but Paul, please. I think just just a logistical question. Do you need Guilford here? Are we going to have anything for his. Good question. I think it's a question whether we tonight want to take on. And I'm not sure we do, but it's a question for my colleagues, the North pleasant pedestrian improvements tonight. It's already almost eight o'clock. So we do not have decision points for this yet. If I'm not mistaken, we don't. And you might want to just postpone discussion of this. We did get a communication from a colleague a council member and related to this, but we don't have to take it up tonight if we don't want to listen. So, yes, and I appreciate that Paul I'm always appreciative when we can let staff go since they've always been around for 12 hours by the time they get to us anyway. I guess my only question now is, and obviously we're going through some changes in terms of leadership is part of what's going on here too. I'm assuming that we're not going to need to talk about the larger North pleasant street project at our Monday night meeting right we'll probably hear back from George about how he sent out will implement him on the wonderful thing he published to all the different committees will do that Monday night. And maybe say something else about it but we won't actually get into this project just like we're not going to get into it tonight but I think we have to understand, given our schedule. When is it that we're going to be. What is it that Guilford wants, I guess is that is the bottom line right. What does he want in terms of timing and in terms of what kinds of decisions about what parts of what is actually a really large section of project to happen, and and what's going to be the timing on that I think that's the question for Guilford tonight so that we plan effectively whoever is chair plans effectively over the next little while so that we use Guilford's time effectively there and also tax time effectively there. So your question to Guilford is with this second proposal, the North pleasant pedestrian improvements which we have seen last week, our last sorry last meeting. What's the timeline there what does he want from us. Yeah. Go for any thoughts there please. Again, this is, this is a new process and we're kind of working it out I mean this project that you have both these projects you have now or if we get them approved we'll be pushing them into the construction some type of construction schedule for next year. So, as long as we can wrap something up by November December first of December then we can finish the construction plans and get some pieces of this out in the bid packages that we want to put out for the next construction year. Good. Okay. So it's sooner rather than later will not be Monday night and may not be the 23rd, but going forward the the chair and the committee needs to get this started with a late November December date. Absolutely. Okay, listen. So how do we, how do we before you for escapes how do we work effectively or how does do we do we want to say as a committee, I realize there's only three of us here, but do we want to say as a committee that the chair will work with Guilford to come up with sort of a similar structure to this decision points document that we have on the other project to say, these are the things you'll need I need to know generally these are the things I need to know to say, so that like he said at the end, he can get this sent out to the bid, the bid package but like is part of how much, how much of it's going to be in a hearing, you know, blah, blah, blah. Well, we haven't we don't have decision points for this second project. I'm saying when how how do those magically develop. We have go for it. Unfortunately, he's here and we not maybe today but he would be here, and we go through the documents he's prepared for us in the presentation. And we would raise some questions we also I assume we have some questions already submitted by a colleague, and maybe they'll leave and show up at the meeting or, but we would come up with a series of decision points like we did for the other project. And then we would just be sending that out to any relevant other committees, but I think Gilbert at this point is waiting for us to sort of say well what are some of the issues or concerns you have. And that's where we need to have some time as a committee, and not tonight. I don't think you're saying we do this on the 26. I'm looking at our schedule when's the next time we could do it. The 23rd, it would have to be the 30th, I think. I mean it's possible we could do it on the 23rd, depending on how much time we have to spend going through the various reports we're getting back. We're mixing up months here this is my fault George I'm talking over you. I'm sorry I'm talking about this month's August 26 TSO meeting, which is our only other TSO meeting in August. Are we going to do it there to start this process or is there some reason we're waiting longer than that. We could certainly have it on the agenda, as we do tonight I mean in theory we could start tonight we have half an hour, we could put it up and for Gilbert stay for another 30 minutes. While we begin the process, but there are only three of us here anyway we could start it tonight. We certainly could put it on the agenda for the 26. It depends on how much we get done that night. It might be more of a courtesy to him and respectful of his time. If we had it set for a specific date where that was that we knew that was the date we were going to do it. So if that were the case, then it would have to be probably something like September 30. Why can't be the 26. August 26 only my only concern is that we're going to be dealing with all the inputs from various committees on that at that meeting and we're going to be I'm sorry. We're talking about different months. We're not getting we're not getting the input from tack and DAC and shade tree until September. So what do we have to do on the 26 and I think that this is what we have to do and I'm some structure from Gilford sooner rather, you know, in time for that meeting so again we're not just a giant brainstorming session. Because that's a big project. So what you're suggesting again this has to do with future agenda items. And what do we have. They're Amherst college science. That's the item. So we could do that and we tried to both is one option. Go for your hands up. I'm sorry, Alyssa, I would just argue that this is more important than the Amherst college science and in terms of getting on track for where we're going to be. So unless go for it says nope can't be there. That'll solve one problem. But if he can talk to us on the 26. I think we need to get to the point where we have a document somewhat like this one, for at least some sections of the project at the process started. I hear you. I hear you. The Amherst college is weighted response. Yeah, let's start with go for it is the 26 of this month possible for you. I'm here the 26. Okay, and our commitment to you would be that would be item number one, and we would start with it and work our way through it with the goal of creating decision points. The second question is for Paul, and it's a matter of our relationship with Amherst college. This would mean that Amherst college would be in second position, and they might not get we might not get to them that night so again as a courtesy to them, it would be a meeting where they would be in the first position. I'm sorry. I'm completely okay being the second one at that meeting and letting Amherst college go first. I'm completely okay with that that is that's a project they've been pushing for a while. Okay, and I'm okay with that. I would add I think the Amherst college from their perspective is more time sensitive than ours. Okay, so you from hearing from the two staff members that. Basically, we should on the 26 have Amherst college and then put go for in the second slot. So I'm saying, there's no point in having a second slot. The Amherst college thing is so amorphous at this point we don't even know which things we need a public hearing about. And so until we're going to have to get more information. We haven't, we haven't even had the opportunity yet to have staff talk to us about the Amherst college project right we've only heard from Amherst college. So we have to have our staff talk to us about how our way finding than with Amherst college, we have to know which parts if any of the Amherst college plan will actually need a hearing which they might not. So, I think realistically, we've done this to ourselves many times in the past, I think we're only doing Amherst college then on the 26. And so, we're going to have to then put other North Pleasants confusing that we have multiple North Pleasant street issue, but with the North Pleasant project in the first position on the, what did, what did we say we were going to meet in September that is September 23 and September 30. And initially we thought, well, we still might be getting we were setting the 23rd of September as the deadline for reports from very 21st 21st the deadline but the 23rd is our meeting. So we would talk about it and that's what, you know, we could have Gilbert on that but again, he would be in the second slot, we would talk about the reports and we try to set a public hearing posting. And then he could be in the second position there. So in theory it could be on the 23rd, or we could put him on the 30th, where he would be in the top spot. And so that's the options at the moment. We could just put him on the 30th and hold that. Hold that date. Yeah. Yeah. So that would be the North Pleasant, the large project from Eastman Lane to Pine Street. Right. Good. Right. And for all these things I think it's really important that the chair bed, which we really appreciate you stepping forward on this George while Evans away is and then whatever reorganization we do is that you know these big projects we need to only do one per meeting because it's, it's too ridiculous to think that we'll cram it all in. I have no idea where the Amherst College conversation could go really straightforward, or it might not. And so if Paul's good with Amherst College, meaning largely what we're we don't want to repeat of what Amherst College just did right like no interest in that what we need is we need staffs input and then we need to have some back and forth. And I think the Amherst College one is going to be more complex because there are significant changes, meaning they want to put a significant sign right on the North on the South Common, which they don't have before which is relocating it from the quadrant, what they call the quadrant, not the quadrangle but the observatory thing the octagon. And I think that's a pretty controversial thing for the town. Okay, good. Amherst College August 26. August 23, we will be discussing the reports that would do September 21, and on September 30 in the first slot would be the larger project on North Pleasant and Gelford would be there for that. Okay. Yeah, nearly. The only thing that I would add is, as you said is very helpful, putting it all together to give some thought to what staff within our current staffing need to have comment on it. You do offer comment and what boards we foresee needing to have comments whether the design review or even planning historical commission. There are a number of different boards and I think it would be very helpful. As you get into issues that I think are controversial that we get some early guidance as to whom to consult staff and board. So I know that the planning department met with Amherst College this afternoon so I'm not sure if they got went to that level of detail but that's a really good thing. Andy. All right. Gelford is his hand up to Gelford please. So I just as a starting point for your, your, your comments you make back to us on your talking points and decision points. The proposed changes list and the memo we send to you. Does that help you do you need more in those proposed changes do you, how does that, does that help with this in any way in the memo that we send, because we can add more to it and give the line, if that's, that does help or if we're giving you too much information, we can cut it back so it's simpler. Thoughts from my colleagues. My initial response always is more information is better. But that may be done. I think I need to look at the document again I can't respond immediately. We can do it pretty quickly. And it would depend upon what I see in the document I think the most nice about the decision points is it sort of tried to pull out from the overall plan. What are the big points that are going to be controversial or need to be decisions. And that's why they were called that. And that documents turned out to be incredibly helpful for the Kendrick Park North Pleasant piece. And I do not think when we look at that long stretch of road, listen to so many different segments, some of that may pop out of there too, but I think maybe your staff have identified any of those will be helpful to know. So I guess the answer go for is yes, at least with the time being if you continue to share those with us. Right and we'll put some more, we'll put more effort into and try to call it out a little better if you, if you're driving around looking at the project and you think of how things should be written differently let Paul knows he can forward it to us. And we'll add those, we'll add that stuff in. Um, I think at this point what I'm going to suggest is that we have a set of minutes that I think we can dispatch very quickly. But before we do that. I wanted to just make sure that our decision points document. If we should be adding at least handicapped parking I just wonder if you have the energy and the mental bandwidth I'm not sure I do, but hopefully you can help me. Is there anything that we can add to this. Before I send it forth or I have, you know, whoever the chair is somebody's going to send this soon. For instance, with, if I send this the disability access committee, don't we want to have a separate item. And how would we phrase it how would we word it. Could we take a few moments on that or do you think that this is good enough detail in it, that they can extract from it what we're asking from them. And is there anything else that you want to add to this, because this is, you know, a working document I don't consider it. You know, sacred scripture here we can add to it or change it tack has seen it and they are going to respond to it. Is there anything we need to add to it and say handicapped parking should that be in here, Alyssa. So, first off, I think you should send it as it is but you're not just sending it, you're not just sending the decision point you're sending the other material the town council got right and that's in our TSO packet in fact you can give them a link to the TSO packet. So they're getting drawings to right they're not just getting. So then they can look at it and say, where's the handicapped parking or whatever I mean you, I think you don't need to change this document just like you don't need to change the drawings I think your cover email because it's memo it doesn't have to be an official memo it can just be the email text. And then says the things we talked about and then says, for example, at our meeting, and you can get Tracy's wording on on the handicapped parking there by the country. You're allowed to bring that kind of thing up is what we're saying is what you're offering to them like that came up we haven't altered this but that that has come up since then. I think we should go ahead and have you I mean obviously it's fine for me to talk because you're doing it not me, but I think we should you should go ahead and send it out tomorrow. Okay, and just be done with it and and that way they have as much notice as possible as they're trying to figure out their meeting schedules right just like we just figured out ours. Okay. Okay. I think that was an issue besides the cat parking that was whether there's sufficient sidelines for the crossings. You can include that in the email to that'd be fine. You probably don't want to mention the North Hampton trees in the email. No. All right, so. All right, because you're already covered in the decision points. Okay. Um, then I'm going to suggest we, we have decided that we're going to postpone discussion of the Northwestern pedestrian improvements to what do we say September or something September 30. Minutes, if you can bear with me, we can deal with those and then I think we are done. And I think we can at least release. So thank you, Phillip. And really Paul at this point, if they would like to go on and do something more exciting. But we could just take a moment and thank you very much, go for it. And thank you, Paul. Under under on the minutes, the big delaying thing is recorded. I was. Yeah, you kicked off. So I was listed as a member, even though I was quoted later in the document is having said something as a member. I made that, I made that change. I assume it was was Evan Ross, the member who was absent. I just can't remember the terrible name, but was Evan absent because someone was absent apparently. And Evan is not cited at all in the in the minutes. So I just can't remember and maybe Emily remembers and she just, you know, it was just a slip. I mean he's easy to make around here. I make about 30 of them every day. If Evan was absent, then I think it's just a matter and I made the changes already. And the only changes I made was to take Dorothy's name off and put Andy's name on, and he of course was present. But was Evan absent? Does anyone remember? I just don't remember. It's terrible. But, and I don't think we have to go back to the tape. I just can't remember. I can't remember either, but I also, I know, I think I added Dorothy's name because I was using the old, the old template from when she was a member. Yeah. So nobody remembers. Remind me which set of minutes it is, George. This is July 15 is our last, the most recent meeting. Evan was absent. Yes, he was absent. Thank you. That's what I figured. So I made that. That's the easy answer. Thank you. So other than that, it was, they were fine. And I would like to make a motion to accept the minutes of July 15 as amended and bring Andy back as an official member of our committee because we definitely need him. I'm going to make that motion. Is there a second? Second. Thank you, Andy. And I'm going to go immediately to vote. The chair is an eye, Andy. Aye. And Alyssa. Stain. The vote is two in favor and one abstention. The minutes of July 15 are accepted as amended. Question about minutes, George. Yes, you may. Okay. I'm going to go to the next question. Since we scrambled to put together this meeting today for Monday night. So that we would be able to act. Is somebody going to be able to take our minutes on Monday? Meaning is Emily, do we have any idea about that? Paul, if someone can take our minutes on Monday. I don't know. Usually that's a scene as job to coordinate. So. We can ask Emily if she's available. I'm assuming I'll do it because I'm already. I already agreed to do council meetings on Monday. Yeah. Anyway. Okay. So this, this should. This is a Monday meeting at 6 30. Yeah. And three days though. I'm a suit. Yeah. I'm assuming Athena will ask me. But I'll be able to do it. So Athena's on vacation. So we're asking you now if you're available. Yeah, yeah. Great. Thank you. That's awesome. Thank you all for being flexible on that. And it should not be even the two full hours. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But still it's really valuable to have somebody else doing the minutes. Okay. So thank you for bringing that up, Alyssa. We have already dealt with future items. There are no items that anticipated. We've already had public comment. Anything else I don't. I think we're done. So actually we do, George. Yeah. Thank you. So what have I forgotten? Thank you. So it's not because you would know, I mean, this is all breaking news, right? So. Darcy resigned as chair just a couple of nights ago. Right. So this breaking news. It's not like it was announced at town council or anything. And so she's still a member, but she's not going to be able to attend for a little while. And so Lynn appointed you. I know the viewing audience is thrilled to hear this explanation. But it's not going to happen. It's not going to happen. It's not going to happen. It's not going to happen. It's not going to happen depending on who's going to be there. We may or may not choose a new. Chair, right? And so if we're not going to have everybody there, I would be a proponent of continuing with acting. But of course that would also depend on one, you and Andy agreeing to that. And two, you agreeing to continue to do it. If Evan's still not going to be back since normally that is where the vice chair steps in. I don't know if I'm going to be back on Monday night. I don't know if I'm going to be back on Monday night. I don't know if I'm going to preside over a reorganization, but I don't want to any reorganization means take place unless all five members are there. You know whether I'm going to be back. I don't know if that was going to be back by Monday night. I don't. He's not going to be back on Monday night for sure. Okay. All right. We'll be good. You know, and I don't know that he's going to be here on the 26th, either. I don't know that. For sure. No joy. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. Okay. So I guess I need to rephrase this. George, will you pretty please continue to serve as our acting chair. Through at least October. At least yeah. October. Let's say that. No. August 26th. With the theory that if we believe everybody's going to be. Except wait, Darcy said she wasn't going to be at meetings in September either. Right. That is correct. If Evan will be back. Right. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know if we dump it over to him. Until we see. But. Do anything else until we have at least four of us here. Yeah, I would think I would have to run. If any is agreeable. I'm happy to hand it off. But if he's agreeable. Oh, I could run the Monday night meeting. And report back to you on what and send you whatever I've sent out. And then after that, I assume Evan will be back. I don't think he's going to be back on the 26th. You don't. He's gone away on the 26th as well. I think so. Right. Well, I guess I need. And we know Darcy won't be here. So. Can you make peace with that, George? Well, I'm going to first reach out to Evan and I'm going to use all my powers of persuasion. And threats and all kinds of other things to make sure that he is back. But if he isn't, then I guess that's what we're going to have to do. Yeah, that's not true. But if it is, then. We'll have to manage. So I guess the answer. We give you our thanks. We did. Okay. Thank you all. All right. So I will see you Monday night. The meeting has been posted. Thank you, Angela. Thank you, Alyssa. Thank you, Paul. And we will deal with the appointments. And we have set our agenda. And for the next couple of meetings, at least. Anything else that I have skipped over. Okay. Nobody can think of anything, something to call this meeting adjourned before somebody thinks there's something else for me to do. Good night all take care.